Gee, we could just set a refinement cap 20k per day -- for the entire ACCOUNT. Casuals are completely unscathed and farmers stop overproducing to the point their crops have become worthless...
Desperate times do call for desperate measures. I actually would not be opposed to such idea, even as someone who got a ton of alt chars for such a purpose. though maybe 30k.
Gee, we could just set a refinement cap 20k per day -- for the entire ACCOUNT. Casuals are completely unscathed and farmers stop overproducing to the point their crops have become worthless...
An account-wide refinement quota is a good step. But it might not be far enough. People talk about getting new players into the game or the effect the market will have on dissuading new players. Having a scaling increase in play based around an inverse of account age, say based around every 100 days. So a new account would have 4x account-wide dilithium refinement (32,000 dilithium/account-day), that then scaled to 3.5x, 3x, 2.5x, down to 1x dil cap at 700 days (8000 dilithium/account-day). I think it balances an early need while keeping late-game dilithium supply limited.
Gee, we could just set a refinement cap 20k per day -- for the entire ACCOUNT. Casuals are completely unscathed and farmers stop overproducing to the point their crops have become worthless...
An account-wide refinement quota is a good step. But it might not be far enough. People talk about getting new players into the game or the effect the market will have on dissuading new players. Having a scaling increase in play based around an inverse of account age, say based around every 100 days. So a new account would have 4x account-wide dilithium refinement (32,000 dilithium/account-day), that then scaled to 3.5x, 3x, 2.5x, down to 1x dil cap at 700 days (8000 dilithium/account-day). I think it balances an early need while keeping late-game dilithium supply limited.
Oh it definitely may not be an immediate solution, but it's certainly one of the quickest things that could be done at this time to stop the out of control situation here for a bit, and buys time to rework other aspects of the dilithium economy. Like the fact that I think too much of it is given out these days... This would buy them time to work on things.
It's not the supply of dil that is the main problem, it is the demand for dil.
The utility of dil has gone down a lot in the last few years. The upgrade system was a temporary shot in the arm for demand, but it wasn't enough.
You need to have it so that people want dil so much they are willing to spend real money to get it. That isnt happening anymore, if it was, zen would buy much less dil than it does.
People buy zen to get c-store stuff, hardly anyone buys it to get dil anymore. What would they even do with all that dil?
I don't do this often, but this guy is right.
Lately there has been a steady (not counting the last couple of months, which can be attributed to the development of AoY) demand for Zen (new C-Store ships, lockboxes, etc...), but the demand for dilithium has been dwindling since there have been few new 'toys' that require dilithium to buy/use/upgrade.
The obvious answer (albeit the toughest to nail down lol) would be to implement a renewable demand for dilithium, which would entice the paying players to buy Zen to sell, to counterbalance the players who want to buy Zen with their dilithium.
Increasing the exchange limit would be the last thing the developers should do, as it wouldn't solve any problems and would devalue dilithium to the extent where players wouldn't bother trading it for Zen, which would reduce Cryptic's Zen sales as Zen sellers wouldn't want to buy Zen to sell if they have no buyers...
It's a fine balance, Bort has his work cut out for him.
Agreed that there needs to be more to spend Dil on in game- since there's really no more reason for people to spend the Dil in game, what else are they going to spend it on? Most just stockpile it to convert to Zen so won't have to spend RL money to get C-store content, which is apparently reflected in the Dil conversion market currently.
The problem? There's really no incentive for Cryptic to do so if they're trying to push ship C-store content (AOY, lockboxes, etc.) so they want more people to buy Zen. Last thing they want to do is pull resources off developing things that can be sold in order to balance the Dil conversion market (even if it's in serious need of being addressed). It's going to be a tough sell internally- because it's a sinkhole for funding until the market stabilizes again.
The optimal solution would be developing things that could be used in tandem with C-store purchases (console sets, weapons, ship gear, etc.) which if made attractive enough may actually prove to bolster both Dil/Zen sales. The only thing that I've seen come close to this is Fleet gear which means you also have to have Fleet credits to spend as well as Dil (and not everyone in this game plays in a fleet). Then you've got Lobi and lockbox items to compete with, so whatever they developed would have to be balanced in terms of not devaluing these, either.
There's also the alternative of being able to convert Dil to other currencies (EC, etc.) but then they'd risk crashing the in-game market because of the amount of Dil flooding it.
I'll believe it when I see it, but I'm banking on the fact that there's much ado about nothing until that time. The less complicated solution would be for them to just completely remove the conversion system altogether. Sure the freeloaders would scream and cry, perhaps even leave the game- but how exactly is that hurting the game any if they're not utilizing server resources anymore?
It's not you- it's me. I just need my space.
Being critical doesn't take skill. Being constructively critical- which is providing alternative solutions or suggestions to a demonstrated problem, however, does.
Raising the refinement cap is a bad idea. And instituting an account-wide refinement cap won't solve Dil farming, either. People will just make MORE accounts to farm with to counter it, instead of more alts.
If the game was "Buy to Play" it would be a different story- there would be an intial price barrier for them to create accounts and thus discouraging (even if not negating) it, but for a free to play game, they could create an unlimited supply of accounts to farm with.
It's not you- it's me. I just need my space.
Being critical doesn't take skill. Being constructively critical- which is providing alternative solutions or suggestions to a demonstrated problem, however, does.
I'll believe it when I see it, but I'm banking on the fact that there's much ado about nothing until that time. The less complicated solution would be for them to just completely remove the conversion system altogether. Sure the freeloaders would scream and cry, perhaps even leave the game- but how exactly is that hurting the game any if they're not utilizing server resources anymore?
Where do you think do new players who buy Zen for real money come from? They are players that
started as F2Plers. From there they either stay grinding Dil, they stop playing or they become
players who actually spent real money because they are tired of grining and thus create profit for
Cryptic.
They need the F2Plers to stick along long enough to get deep enough into the game so they
spent money rather then grinding/quitting, and they do that by the Dil-exchange. The vast majority
of players get into the game thinking they can get most C-store items by simply grinding enough.
And while that is feasible in some cases, most players eventually quit or invest real money to get
their stuff. Without the Dil-exchange they remove a relevant element of the game that get's new
players to stick along long enough to become profitable for them.
And just for fun I'll trot out my main Dil sink suggestion:
Each time you unlock a Ship Skill on any of your captains, its added to your personal Dilithium store visible to every captain on your account. Your other captains can individually buy that ship skill for 250,000 Dilithium.
Done. Every faction imbalance in Ship Trait access wiped away in a single instant. Every rare T6 you acquire from a lock box or super-prize creates a built-in sink for potentially MILLIONS of dilithium as you copy that skill out to your other captains.
Simple. Fair. And an incredibly DEEP hole that grows with every new T6 ship they release.
I think this is a good idea now that we have the infinity box. Before this they would have felt it lowered sales of boxes too much.
The principal is sound. Only the very tasty carrot will work. Players today will simply ignore and skip the stick. The last fleet holding was the perfect example of this. Skip and buy from other fleet. Tada. Exchange doesn't budge.
Myself and others have put out ideas for housing. Probably too costly for them to bother doing.
Special costumes, weapons, consumables etc might be an idea.
Vast sums of dil for lobi? If it's 500 for 1 zen - maybe 20,000 for one lobi? 40,000?
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
Raising the refinement cap is a bad idea. And instituting an account-wide refinement cap won't solve Dil farming, either. People will just make MORE accounts to farm with to counter it, instead of more alts.
If the game was "Buy to Play" it would be a different story- there would be an intial price barrier for them to create accounts and thus discouraging (even if not negating) it, but for a free to play game, they could create an unlimited supply of accounts to farm with.
You do have a good point about the alt accounts, so an account dilithium refinement limit won't get in the way of serious dil farmers, but it could be a good idea to implemtent one anyway. If for no other reason then to slow down farmers somewhat.
Let's assume someone can max a character's dil refinement of 8k in 10 minutes (unlikely but for argument's sake lets go with it).
Which means...
8000 * 6 (10 minutes = 6 per hour) 48,000 dilithium per hour
48,000 dilithium / 500:1 rate = 96 Zen per hour
96 * 8 hours (average full time work day in US) = 768 Zen per day
$1.00 (US) = 100 Zen, and with an average minimum wage of $7.25 (US) so you are effectively spending all day to 'earn' about one work-hour's worth of Zen...
So stating that dil grinders are getting Zen for free is horribly inaccurate, even at 48,000 dil/hour you are still investing significantly more time than is necessary to get your Zen.
Just doesn't seem worth it, does it?
Just to show that the amount of effort it would take for a F2P player to aquire any decent amount of Zen effectively equates out to more 'work' than most people would put into their work lol. So calling them 'freeloaders' is at the very least a bit insensitive, so if you don't mind could you refrain from the namecalling please?
Freeloaders, eh? I guess I almost fit in that category, seeing as I only paid for gold edition and didn't bother to sub again. Most of us are but mere mortals compared to the lifetime, subs and zen sellers. But without them this game would be struggling. Xen exchange is high, but it will probably come down after AOY hype is over.
"Great men are not peacemakers, Great men are conquerors!" - Captain Archer" "When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway #Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
Just to show that the amount of effort it would take for a F2P player to aquire any decent amount of Zen effectively equates out to more 'work' than most people would put into their work lol. So calling them 'freeloaders' is at the very least a bit insensitive, so if you don't mind could you refrain from the namecalling please?
They play for "free" and create a "load" on the servers by utilizing resources, no? Not "namecalling" here, just stating facts.
As far as what they choose to do with their recreational time, if they wish to play a game with it, it's by all means their choice. How about them actually getting a job and working for RL money then spending it on Zen instead?
You see, perception is indeed a wonderful thing- and I agree it can be viewed many different ways.
It's not you- it's me. I just need my space.
Being critical doesn't take skill. Being constructively critical- which is providing alternative solutions or suggestions to a demonstrated problem, however, does.
Any action they take will hurt someone. The people who the current situation is worst for are the ones who will come here and complain; the rest happily play the game.
Current situation: Most active long-term players have finished their major dilithium sinks. Many desireable Zen items (Infinity Lockboxes, whatever lockbox comes next, temporal ships) are coming down the pike or here already, dilithium is relatively easy to come by. Result: Value of dilithium steadily decreases, helping Zen sellers and hurting dilithium traders. The size of the dilithium sinks is largely manageable for casual and new players as long as they're willing to invest in playing the game for short bursts over a long period, though the sinks in the fleet system are still punishing to small fleets.
Scenario 1: Reduce supply of dilithium. Cut back the refinement cap, reduce size of dilithium sources. Dilithium traders are huge winners here - they get to sell their dilithium for more money, and get desireable Zen items far more easily. Zen sellers lose - their money is worth less dilithium. Casuals have their mountain to rep items and gear upgrades get a lot steeper, and small fleets are devastated.
Scenario 2: Increase demand for dilithium by creating a new sink for individual players (Mk XV items with absurdly high TP requirements). The effects on zen sellers and dilithium traders is the same as in Scenario 1. The effect is multiplied on casual players, who now are looking at Olympus Mons where once they had to climb Baker. Small fleets suffer a bit as their members prioritize their dilithium expenditures on upgrades rather than fleet projects, but dedicated fleet builders are worth basically the same amount to those fleets as they are now.
Scenario 3: Increase demand for dilithium with a new fleet holding. Again, same effect on Zen sellers and dilithium traders. Members of small fleets bear the brunt of this one, and tremble in fear of its terrible arrival.
Scenario 3: Increase supply of Zen. Maybe more frequent giveaways and sales? Probably not workable since Zen is a currency for non-Cryptic games.
Scenario 4: Reduce demand for Zen. If anybody's got a suggestion for this that doesn't reduce the game's ability to turn a month-by-month profit, I'd love to hear it.
Just to show that the amount of effort it would take for a F2P player to aquire any decent amount of Zen effectively equates out to more 'work' than most people would put into their work lol. So calling them 'freeloaders' is at the very least a bit insensitive, so if you don't mind could you refrain from the namecalling please?
They play for "free" and create a "load" on the servers by utilizing resources, no? Not "namecalling" here, just stating facts.
As far as what they choose to do with their recreational time, if they wish to play a game with it, it's by all means their choice. How about them actually getting a job and working for RL money then spending it on Zen instead?
You see, perception is indeed a wonderful thing- and I agree it can be viewed many different ways.
I'm not going to argue semantics here, I'm simply stating that calling F2P players 'freeloaders' isn't the nicest way to describe players and more than likely will be interpreted as a derogatory reference. Which could lead to disagreements, arguments, flaming, and all-round hurt feelings. Which is why I asked politely for you to refrain from it.
I'm not interested in turning this into a 'thing' so I won't derail the thread further with it.
My friends have a real job, and they wouldn't use their RL money on STO. Nothing wrong with that. Nobody wins prizes for spending money on cryptic. If naming them 'freeloaders' in F2P game makes you feel more important then I don't no what to tell you.
"Great men are not peacemakers, Great men are conquerors!" - Captain Archer" "When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway #Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
[quote="sylveriarelden;12978831"]As far as "market speculation" and wondering what Cryptic might/will do- keep this in mind...
higher Dil->Zen conversion ratio benefits Cryptic the most, as it makes their Zen more valuable, and more people will be forced to buy Zen with RL monies. Cryptic doesn't make anything from people who freeload. [/quote]
This is a simplistic way of looking at a complicated issue. Let's pretend I want 3m dil for something. At 500:1 this dil purchase costs 6,000 Zen or $60. At 50:1 it costs $600. At 50:1 cryptic makes the most profit, but at 500:1 i am most likely to actually spend my money. At both 500:1 and 50:1 different market forces limit total transactions per day.
What is really best for cryptic's long term profits is the lowest number that results in the most Zen changing hands per day. If i need 3m dil, they want me to pay as close to 50:1 as possible. If I can fill all my dil needs, I'll never need to buy again, and the Zen side will dry up. Short term 500:1 seems like it is great for cryptic because it incentivises Zen selling. But it also fills all the sinks too cheaply reducing the number of Zen sales long run.
This is why upgrades and fleetholdings stopped working. Eventually, people with money are done. And any fleet buying dil now is finishing for half the Zen of the fleets who bought dil at 250:1. That's not in cryptic's best interest.
Long term sinks with a lower exchange rate will almost certainly make cryptic more profit.
Raising the cap would be a bad idea for everyone: Buyers, Sellers and Developers........High prices are associated with fewer/slower trades. To the point where the economy halts.
The current cap is 500 dilithium per zen. Some people here are pushing to have that increased. The problem is at the current high price the exchange is already at, I have no desire to trade dil for zen at all, and haven't for a while. Others have expressed the same sentiment. Increasing the cap would make matters a whole lot worse. If players can't sell their zen, then there's no reason for them to buy zen for real money. So yes, the economy would come to a screeching halt.
but if it reaches the cap it really will halt, because people wont be able to reach a price they agree on. happened in NW
And if they raise the cap it will eventually increase to it, halting the economy again. Then what? They increase the cap again and again, until eventually zen costs 10,000 dil each?
You realize when the rate hits 500 trades will get immensely slower from the perspective of the Dilithium sellers, right? Every time you post up more Dil you're going to the back of a single line that you can no longer skip to the front of by offering the Zeni sellers a better deal. Increasing the cap actually increases the volume of trading, and that's the underlying issue - there is SO MUCH WORTHLESS DILITHIUM flooding into the system the people who have it can't get rid of it fast enough... The person who would have sold off some zeni at 550 but doesn't think 500 is worth it doesn't enter the market at all, and the player who would have cheerfully sold their zeni for 550 if it meant they could buy the thing they wanted right now this instant is now 100% stuck behind a line of people capped at 500 that isn't moving fast enough for their deal to go through any time in the next 20 hours or worse as the flood waters continue to rise against the unyielding cap.
As far as "market speculation" and wondering what Cryptic might/will do- keep this in mind...
higher Dil->Zen conversion ratio benefits Cryptic the most, as it makes their Zen more valuable, and more people will be forced to buy Zen with RL monies. Cryptic doesn't make anything from people who freeload.
Personally, I ignore the Dil->Zen conversion because it's so imbalanced, if I want something I simply buy Zen. If there's nothing that interests me in the C-Store, I simply don't buy any.
I think it only matters most to people who don't want to spend any money yet want to reap the rewards just for playing the game. Good luck with that, lemme know how it all works out for you years from now when you're still grinding away to get those C-Store ships.
Meanwhile, the rest of us will have already played and enjoyed the game.
Let me tell you how many ships I've gotten through the conversion of Dilithium to zen since I've been playing:
2500+4000+12000+2500+6000=$270 dollars worth of ships I have gotten. All which I wouldn't wouldn't return even if I was given the same amount of zen back. This is one reason I've stuck with this game for so long. If we didn't have this ability, I would have left long ago.
Just to show that the amount of effort it would take for a F2P player to aquire any decent amount of Zen effectively equates out to more 'work' than most people would put into their work lol. So calling them 'freeloaders' is at the very least a bit insensitive, so if you don't mind could you refrain from the namecalling please?
This is a game, not a second job. Farming for dil for hours in game is a Job to you to get currency that does have a real world value that makes you.... GOLD FARMERS. hahahaha
Raising the cap would be a bad idea for everyone: Buyers, Sellers and Developers........High prices are associated with fewer/slower trades. To the point where the economy halts.
The current cap is 500 dilithium per zen. Some people here are pushing to have that increased. The problem is at the current high price the exchange is already at, I have no desire to trade dil for zen at all, and haven't for a while. Others have expressed the same sentiment. Increasing the cap would make matters a whole lot worse. If players can't sell their zen, then there's no reason for them to buy zen for real money. So yes, the economy would come to a screeching halt.
but if it reaches the cap it really will halt, because people wont be able to reach a price they agree on. happened in NW
And if they raise the cap it will eventually increase to it, halting the economy again. Then what? They increase the cap again and again, until eventually zen costs 10,000 dil each?
Out of curiosity, what do you think happens when it hits the cap?
Raising the cap would be a bad idea for everyone: Buyers, Sellers and Developers........High prices are associated with fewer/slower trades. To the point where the economy halts.
The current cap is 500 dilithium per zen. Some people here are pushing to have that increased. The problem is at the current high price the exchange is already at, I have no desire to trade dil for zen at all, and haven't for a while. Others have expressed the same sentiment. Increasing the cap would make matters a whole lot worse. If players can't sell their zen, then there's no reason for them to buy zen for real money. So yes, the economy would come to a screeching halt.
but if it reaches the cap it really will halt, because people wont be able to reach a price they agree on. happened in NW
And if they raise the cap it will eventually increase to it, halting the economy again. Then what? They increase the cap again and again, until eventually zen costs 10,000 dil each?
Out of curiosity, what do you think happens when it hits the cap?
About F2P players "freeloading": As has been said, most zen buyers and LTS will probably have started out as F2P. So they're - or part of them are - what will keep the game going. Also more F2P players means more players, which apart from more server load also means more interaction within a game, making it an MMO. So name calling is probably inappropriate.
At the same time, when you are using a free service that is kept alive by others paying for it, especially if you not paying is not a necessity but a choice (a choice you are entitled to make), you cannot always expect to have the same standing in everything. With the freedom of making a choice comes the freedom to take the consequences, and one of them is that your opinions may be considered less important by those who take the money.
About economics: if zen would be free, Cryptic would not make any profit. If zen would be prohibitively expensive, Cryptic would also not net money from the Dil exchange. Somewhere in between is a sweet spot from their point of view. But we don't know where that is, and never may know. The limits on the exchange are completely arbitrary in that respect and don't mean that the sweet spot cannot be higher than 500 or lower than 50. Cryptic probably has a better idea where it lies than us. All the calculations in this thread make assumptions in their conclusions which may be correct - or may not be.
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
Raising the cap would be a bad idea for everyone: Buyers, Sellers and Developers........High prices are associated with fewer/slower trades. To the point where the economy halts.
The current cap is 500 dilithium per zen. Some people here are pushing to have that increased. The problem is at the current high price the exchange is already at, I have no desire to trade dil for zen at all, and haven't for a while. Others have expressed the same sentiment. Increasing the cap would make matters a whole lot worse. If players can't sell their zen, then there's no reason for them to buy zen for real money. So yes, the economy would come to a screeching halt.
but if it reaches the cap it really will halt, because people wont be able to reach a price they agree on. happened in NW
And if they raise the cap it will eventually increase to it, halting the economy again. Then what? They increase the cap again and again, until eventually zen costs 10,000 dil each?
Out of curiosity, what do you think happens when it hits the cap?
I voted for Bush, twice. What the hell do I know?
Sounds like you know a thing or two about markets crashing and praying for some quantitative easing.
Yes, they have a metrics sweet spot. If the # is too high they note reduced playtimes and logins and thus less opportunity to sell something. I believe they will do the right thing and keep it off the max.
That said, you can expect the needle to be buried next week and maybe for the week after. Then we may see some pullback.
For me the correct price is 130. Others have said mid 200's is most fair. My guess is Cryptic would be happiest with mid 300's.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
The thing i wonder about is what is the real value of the exchange. We have the frenzy for AoY, new ships and new lockbox which has gradually pushed the price up.
However, if the exchange was reset to 250 then i think it would stabilize at 300 tops.
The real question is how to bring the exchange down from the frenzy induced price to the realistic price.
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
The price is morally neutral as long as goods flow. Right now, they're flowing - no need to panic. If the price sticks at either the cap or the floor, goods won't flow, and then it's panicking time.
Just to show that the amount of effort it would take for a F2P player to aquire any decent amount of Zen effectively equates out to more 'work' than most people would put into their work lol. So calling them 'freeloaders' is at the very least a bit insensitive, so if you don't mind could you refrain from the namecalling please?
This is a game, not a second job. Farming for dil for hours in game is a Job to you to get currency that does have a real world value that makes you.... GOLD FARMERS. hahahaha
I'm not saying grinding dilithium is a job, I'm stating that it is a time investment, much like going to a job. It's just significantly less efficient, so it wouldn't be appropriate to refer to F2P players as 'freeloaders' or stating that they get stuff for free, because dil grinders have to invest MUCH more time in getting dilithium than Zen sellers have to invest into getting Zen.
Point is, looking at how much time it takes to grind out dil to get Zen, compared to how much time it takes to get the $$ to buy Zen, it just makes more sense for dil grinders to stop buying Zen from Zen sellers and just buy the stuff with money earned from their Jobs...
The Zen buyer/dil' grinder makes the consious choice to spend all of that time grinding for dilithium, no one forces them to do it, if they decide to use it to buy Zen with it, the amount of time spent doing it is not a real market decision point, just the individual grinders. The amount of time spent grinding dil can be very variable with more effi ient players taking almost no time , and others eons.
I also find it amusing that you tried to state that its less effort to spend the cash to get Zen. Not everyone is making a high hourly equivalent pay, for someone in a depressed region, it might take a days worth of work to get $10 US, especially after taxes and fees.
Literally speaking though, the investment of cash should be a higher calue than grinding does, as it goes directly into the companys accounts recievables. And when one is grinding, they are playing as well, and if you decide to grind so much that its a chore/job, theres only one person )per account) to blame.
Gee, we could just set a refinement cap 20k per day -- for the entire ACCOUNT. Casuals are completely unscathed and farmers stop overproducing to the point their crops have become worthless...
An account-wide refinement quota is a good step. But it might not be far enough. People talk about getting new players into the game or the effect the market will have on dissuading new players. Having a scaling increase in play based around an inverse of account age, say based around every 100 days. So a new account would have 4x account-wide dilithium refinement (32,000 dilithium/account-day), that then scaled to 3.5x, 3x, 2.5x, down to 1x dil cap at 700 days (8000 dilithium/account-day). I think it balances an early need while keeping late-game dilithium supply limited.
This would actually be a very BAD step. For me definitely a step further to spend less time ingame. As for every player with multiple alts which are to be provided with dill goodies. Or, just allow us to buy stuff with unrefined Dill, and only refined can be traded on exchange. Nothing against that.
Freeloaders, eh? I guess I almost fit in that category, seeing as I only paid for gold edition and didn't bother to sub again. Most of us are but mere mortals compared to the lifetime, subs and zen sellers. But without them this game would be struggling. Xen exchange is high, but it will probably come down after AOY hype is over.
Good luck with that...why do you think they flood the game with all of these dilithium events...people don't consider that the devs like the cost high? Maybe encourages people to buy zen instead of grinding for it?
AOY isn't going to bring the prices down...it's only going to go up...more and more till the ships and expansion are released...and will probably float around that level till the next big thing on the c-store.
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Comments
Desperate times do call for desperate measures. I actually would not be opposed to such idea, even as someone who got a ton of alt chars for such a purpose. though maybe 30k.
An account-wide refinement quota is a good step. But it might not be far enough. People talk about getting new players into the game or the effect the market will have on dissuading new players. Having a scaling increase in play based around an inverse of account age, say based around every 100 days. So a new account would have 4x account-wide dilithium refinement (32,000 dilithium/account-day), that then scaled to 3.5x, 3x, 2.5x, down to 1x dil cap at 700 days (8000 dilithium/account-day). I think it balances an early need while keeping late-game dilithium supply limited.
Oh it definitely may not be an immediate solution, but it's certainly one of the quickest things that could be done at this time to stop the out of control situation here for a bit, and buys time to rework other aspects of the dilithium economy. Like the fact that I think too much of it is given out these days... This would buy them time to work on things.
Agreed that there needs to be more to spend Dil on in game- since there's really no more reason for people to spend the Dil in game, what else are they going to spend it on? Most just stockpile it to convert to Zen so won't have to spend RL money to get C-store content, which is apparently reflected in the Dil conversion market currently.
The problem? There's really no incentive for Cryptic to do so if they're trying to push ship C-store content (AOY, lockboxes, etc.) so they want more people to buy Zen. Last thing they want to do is pull resources off developing things that can be sold in order to balance the Dil conversion market (even if it's in serious need of being addressed). It's going to be a tough sell internally- because it's a sinkhole for funding until the market stabilizes again.
The optimal solution would be developing things that could be used in tandem with C-store purchases (console sets, weapons, ship gear, etc.) which if made attractive enough may actually prove to bolster both Dil/Zen sales. The only thing that I've seen come close to this is Fleet gear which means you also have to have Fleet credits to spend as well as Dil (and not everyone in this game plays in a fleet). Then you've got Lobi and lockbox items to compete with, so whatever they developed would have to be balanced in terms of not devaluing these, either.
There's also the alternative of being able to convert Dil to other currencies (EC, etc.) but then they'd risk crashing the in-game market because of the amount of Dil flooding it.
I'll believe it when I see it, but I'm banking on the fact that there's much ado about nothing until that time. The less complicated solution would be for them to just completely remove the conversion system altogether. Sure the freeloaders would scream and cry, perhaps even leave the game- but how exactly is that hurting the game any if they're not utilizing server resources anymore?
Being critical doesn't take skill. Being constructively critical- which is providing alternative solutions or suggestions to a demonstrated problem, however, does.
If the game was "Buy to Play" it would be a different story- there would be an intial price barrier for them to create accounts and thus discouraging (even if not negating) it, but for a free to play game, they could create an unlimited supply of accounts to farm with.
Being critical doesn't take skill. Being constructively critical- which is providing alternative solutions or suggestions to a demonstrated problem, however, does.
Where do you think do new players who buy Zen for real money come from? They are players that
started as F2Plers. From there they either stay grinding Dil, they stop playing or they become
players who actually spent real money because they are tired of grining and thus create profit for
Cryptic.
They need the F2Plers to stick along long enough to get deep enough into the game so they
spent money rather then grinding/quitting, and they do that by the Dil-exchange. The vast majority
of players get into the game thinking they can get most C-store items by simply grinding enough.
And while that is feasible in some cases, most players eventually quit or invest real money to get
their stuff. Without the Dil-exchange they remove a relevant element of the game that get's new
players to stick along long enough to become profitable for them.
I think this is a good idea now that we have the infinity box. Before this they would have felt it lowered sales of boxes too much.
The principal is sound. Only the very tasty carrot will work. Players today will simply ignore and skip the stick. The last fleet holding was the perfect example of this. Skip and buy from other fleet. Tada. Exchange doesn't budge.
Myself and others have put out ideas for housing. Probably too costly for them to bother doing.
Special costumes, weapons, consumables etc might be an idea.
Vast sums of dil for lobi? If it's 500 for 1 zen - maybe 20,000 for one lobi? 40,000?
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
You do have a good point about the alt accounts, so an account dilithium refinement limit won't get in the way of serious dil farmers, but it could be a good idea to implemtent one anyway. If for no other reason then to slow down farmers somewhat.
Also, I'll repeat a previous post of mine:
Just to show that the amount of effort it would take for a F2P player to aquire any decent amount of Zen effectively equates out to more 'work' than most people would put into their work lol. So calling them 'freeloaders' is at the very least a bit insensitive, so if you don't mind could you refrain from the namecalling please?
"When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway
#Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
They play for "free" and create a "load" on the servers by utilizing resources, no? Not "namecalling" here, just stating facts.
As far as what they choose to do with their recreational time, if they wish to play a game with it, it's by all means their choice. How about them actually getting a job and working for RL money then spending it on Zen instead?
You see, perception is indeed a wonderful thing- and I agree it can be viewed many different ways.
Being critical doesn't take skill. Being constructively critical- which is providing alternative solutions or suggestions to a demonstrated problem, however, does.
Current situation: Most active long-term players have finished their major dilithium sinks. Many desireable Zen items (Infinity Lockboxes, whatever lockbox comes next, temporal ships) are coming down the pike or here already, dilithium is relatively easy to come by. Result: Value of dilithium steadily decreases, helping Zen sellers and hurting dilithium traders. The size of the dilithium sinks is largely manageable for casual and new players as long as they're willing to invest in playing the game for short bursts over a long period, though the sinks in the fleet system are still punishing to small fleets.
Scenario 1: Reduce supply of dilithium. Cut back the refinement cap, reduce size of dilithium sources. Dilithium traders are huge winners here - they get to sell their dilithium for more money, and get desireable Zen items far more easily. Zen sellers lose - their money is worth less dilithium. Casuals have their mountain to rep items and gear upgrades get a lot steeper, and small fleets are devastated.
Scenario 2: Increase demand for dilithium by creating a new sink for individual players (Mk XV items with absurdly high TP requirements). The effects on zen sellers and dilithium traders is the same as in Scenario 1. The effect is multiplied on casual players, who now are looking at Olympus Mons where once they had to climb Baker. Small fleets suffer a bit as their members prioritize their dilithium expenditures on upgrades rather than fleet projects, but dedicated fleet builders are worth basically the same amount to those fleets as they are now.
Scenario 3: Increase demand for dilithium with a new fleet holding. Again, same effect on Zen sellers and dilithium traders. Members of small fleets bear the brunt of this one, and tremble in fear of its terrible arrival.
Scenario 3: Increase supply of Zen. Maybe more frequent giveaways and sales? Probably not workable since Zen is a currency for non-Cryptic games.
Scenario 4: Reduce demand for Zen. If anybody's got a suggestion for this that doesn't reduce the game's ability to turn a month-by-month profit, I'd love to hear it.
I'm not going to argue semantics here, I'm simply stating that calling F2P players 'freeloaders' isn't the nicest way to describe players and more than likely will be interpreted as a derogatory reference. Which could lead to disagreements, arguments, flaming, and all-round hurt feelings. Which is why I asked politely for you to refrain from it.
I'm not interested in turning this into a 'thing' so I won't derail the thread further with it.
"When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway
#Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
higher Dil->Zen conversion ratio benefits Cryptic the most, as it makes their Zen more valuable, and more people will be forced to buy Zen with RL monies. Cryptic doesn't make anything from people who freeload.
[/quote]
This is a simplistic way of looking at a complicated issue. Let's pretend I want 3m dil for something. At 500:1 this dil purchase costs 6,000 Zen or $60. At 50:1 it costs $600. At 50:1 cryptic makes the most profit, but at 500:1 i am most likely to actually spend my money. At both 500:1 and 50:1 different market forces limit total transactions per day.
What is really best for cryptic's long term profits is the lowest number that results in the most Zen changing hands per day. If i need 3m dil, they want me to pay as close to 50:1 as possible. If I can fill all my dil needs, I'll never need to buy again, and the Zen side will dry up. Short term 500:1 seems like it is great for cryptic because it incentivises Zen selling. But it also fills all the sinks too cheaply reducing the number of Zen sales long run.
This is why upgrades and fleetholdings stopped working. Eventually, people with money are done. And any fleet buying dil now is finishing for half the Zen of the fleets who bought dil at 250:1. That's not in cryptic's best interest.
Long term sinks with a lower exchange rate will almost certainly make cryptic more profit.
Just want to say thanks for
The current cap is 500 dilithium per zen. Some people here are pushing to have that increased. The problem is at the current high price the exchange is already at, I have no desire to trade dil for zen at all, and haven't for a while. Others have expressed the same sentiment. Increasing the cap would make matters a whole lot worse. If players can't sell their zen, then there's no reason for them to buy zen for real money. So yes, the economy would come to a screeching halt.
@repetitiveepic
And if they raise the cap it will eventually increase to it, halting the economy again. Then what? They increase the cap again and again, until eventually zen costs 10,000 dil each?
Let me tell you how many ships I've gotten through the conversion of Dilithium to zen since I've been playing:
Federation Ships: Heavy Escort Carrier, Galaxy pack (T4 Galaxy, T5 Galaxy and T5 Galaxy-X), Command Battlecruisers, Alita Heavy Escort Carrier
Klingon Ships: Command Battlecruisers, Qa'tel flight deck Raptor
Romulan ships: Ar'kif Tactical Warbird Carrier Retrofit, Command Battlecruiser Warbirds, Jhu'ael Tactical Warbird Carrier
2500+4000+12000+2500+6000=$270 dollars worth of ships I have gotten. All which I wouldn't wouldn't return even if I was given the same amount of zen back. This is one reason I've stuck with this game for so long. If we didn't have this ability, I would have left long ago.
This is a game, not a second job. Farming for dil for hours in game is a Job to you to get currency that does have a real world value that makes you.... GOLD FARMERS. hahahaha
The same that happened in NW.
I voted for Bush, twice. What the hell do I know?
At the same time, when you are using a free service that is kept alive by others paying for it, especially if you not paying is not a necessity but a choice (a choice you are entitled to make), you cannot always expect to have the same standing in everything. With the freedom of making a choice comes the freedom to take the consequences, and one of them is that your opinions may be considered less important by those who take the money.
About economics: if zen would be free, Cryptic would not make any profit. If zen would be prohibitively expensive, Cryptic would also not net money from the Dil exchange. Somewhere in between is a sweet spot from their point of view. But we don't know where that is, and never may know. The limits on the exchange are completely arbitrary in that respect and don't mean that the sweet spot cannot be higher than 500 or lower than 50. Cryptic probably has a better idea where it lies than us. All the calculations in this thread make assumptions in their conclusions which may be correct - or may not be.
Sounds like you know a thing or two about markets crashing and praying for some quantitative easing.
That said, you can expect the needle to be buried next week and maybe for the week after. Then we may see some pullback.
For me the correct price is 130. Others have said mid 200's is most fair. My guess is Cryptic would be happiest with mid 300's.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
However, if the exchange was reset to 250 then i think it would stabilize at 300 tops.
The real question is how to bring the exchange down from the frenzy induced price to the realistic price.
I'm not saying grinding dilithium is a job, I'm stating that it is a time investment, much like going to a job. It's just significantly less efficient, so it wouldn't be appropriate to refer to F2P players as 'freeloaders' or stating that they get stuff for free, because dil grinders have to invest MUCH more time in getting dilithium than Zen sellers have to invest into getting Zen.
Point is, looking at how much time it takes to grind out dil to get Zen, compared to how much time it takes to get the $$ to buy Zen, it just makes more sense for dil grinders to stop buying Zen from Zen sellers and just buy the stuff with money earned from their Jobs...
@orion0029
The Zen buyer/dil' grinder makes the consious choice to spend all of that time grinding for dilithium, no one forces them to do it, if they decide to use it to buy Zen with it, the amount of time spent doing it is not a real market decision point, just the individual grinders. The amount of time spent grinding dil can be very variable with more effi ient players taking almost no time , and others eons.
I also find it amusing that you tried to state that its less effort to spend the cash to get Zen. Not everyone is making a high hourly equivalent pay, for someone in a depressed region, it might take a days worth of work to get $10 US, especially after taxes and fees.
Literally speaking though, the investment of cash should be a higher calue than grinding does, as it goes directly into the companys accounts recievables. And when one is grinding, they are playing as well, and if you decide to grind so much that its a chore/job, theres only one person )per account) to blame.
This would actually be a very BAD step. For me definitely a step further to spend less time ingame. As for every player with multiple alts which are to be provided with dill goodies. Or, just allow us to buy stuff with unrefined Dill, and only refined can be traded on exchange. Nothing against that.
Good luck with that...why do you think they flood the game with all of these dilithium events...people don't consider that the devs like the cost high? Maybe encourages people to buy zen instead of grinding for it?
AOY isn't going to bring the prices down...it's only going to go up...more and more till the ships and expansion are released...and will probably float around that level till the next big thing on the c-store.