You can only go to 500 max. Not 550. It's 25-500. No more, no less.
"Great men are not peacemakers, Great men are conquerors!" - Captain Archer" "When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway #Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
@orion0029 the rate of purchase of a luxury item such as Zen suggests that enough of the Zen buyers find it to be a fair price, otherwise the demand would drop. While some people dont like the price there is too much demand to force a price drop
Exactly, there is a high demand for Zen right now. But little demand for dilithium, so the rates go up.
To keep things from exacerbating too far Cryptic should consider releasing content which requires dilithium to even out the demand for each resource. Otherwise we risk seeing an economic situation much like what was in Neverwinter a short time ago.
Raising the cap would be a bad idea for everyone: Buyers, Sellers and Developers........High prices are associated with fewer/slower trades. To the point where the economy halts.
The current cap is 500 dilithium per zen. Some people here are pushing to have that increased. The problem is at the current high price the exchange is already at, I have no desire to trade dil for zen at all, and haven't for a while. Others have expressed the same sentiment. Increasing the cap would make matters a whole lot worse. If players can't sell their zen, then there's no reason for them to buy zen for real money. So yes, the economy would come to a screeching halt.
but if it reaches the cap it really will halt, because people wont be able to reach a price they agree on. happened in NW
And if they raise the cap it will eventually increase to it, halting the economy again. Then what? They increase the cap again and again, until eventually zen costs 10,000 dil each?
Out of curiosity, what do you think happens when it hits the cap?
I voted for Bush, twice. What the hell do I know?
Sounds like you know a thing or two about markets crashing and praying for some quantitative easing.
I have no idea what you said. I was implying I know nothing about economies.
null @orion0029 its not even the amount of dil in the exchange vs the amount if Zen in the exchange as much the amount of people offering dil vs the amount of people offering Zen. There are too much of an inbalance in the amount of people entering the Zen selling side vs people entering the Zen buying side as well.
Right now, I bet you that if they cut the dil refining cap to 6k a day the exchange rate would barely even skip a beat, not because sellers are "greedy", its because Zen buyers have to compete with each other for the same resource.
null @orion0029 its not even the amount of dil in the exchange vs the amount if Zen in the exchange as much the amount of people offering dil vs the amount of people offering Zen. There are too much of an inbalance in the amount of people entering the Zen selling side vs people entering the Zen buying side as well.
Right now, I bet you that if they cut the dil refining cap to 6k a day the exchange rate would barely even skip a beat, not because sellers are "greedy", its because Zen buyers have to compete with each other for the same resource.
Yup, it's all about the amount of demand one group of people have for a resource pitted against the other group's supply of their resource.
Your argument would imply that Zen sellers aren't in any real competition for dilithium on the market, which the evidence supports with the current rates. So the demand for Zen is higher than the demand for dilithium.
I think we're getting on the same page now, there is no shortage in supply of dilithium, so there isn't much of that would get in the way for a Zen seller to sell their resource at high rates.
Interestingly enough, I wonder what would happen to the exchange if all the Zen sellers finish off the current dil sinks and have no further reason to sell Zen...
Edit: Wait a frig... I may need more coffee, did I interpret your comment correctly?
Yup, it's all about the amount of demand one group of people have for a resource pitted against the other group's supply of their resource.
Your argument would imply that Zen sellers aren't in any real competition for dilithium on the market, which the evidence supports with the current rates. So the demand for Zen is higher than the demand for dilithium.
I think we're getting on the same page now, there is no shortage in supply of dilithium, so there isn't much of that would get in the way for a Zen seller to sell their resource at high rates.
Interestingly enough, I wonder what would happen to the exchange if all the Zen sellers finish off the current dil sinks and have no further reason to sell Zen...
This is actually a "sound" theory- the market has climbed over and over again in the last year or so, increasing steadily. Never have I seen it actually "drop" below a few points, it's always gone higher.
People are right when they say dilithium has flooded the market- and while some say "plenty" of Dil sinks exist, I have to disagree. If that were the case you wouldn't have so much Dil floating around out there for Zen sellers to snatch up.
It's not you- it's me. I just need my space.
Being critical doesn't take skill. Being constructively critical- which is providing alternative solutions or suggestions to a demonstrated problem, however, does.
in the past i did pay into the game to get a ship bundle but i cant pay monthly or even every year, as to the dil exc that is worthless till it comes down to something reasonable, 250 to 300 to me is reasonable, what it is now, is out of control, even if i had the money to give the game at this point i wouldnt, i can struggle nicely without zen ships on other toons and thats exactly what im gonna do, i wont spend 500 per zen in dil, so either the rate drops or i will just keep playing the hard way and as to money, i was considering 20 bucks a year at the end of the year but considering how unfair the dil exc has become , no money period indefinitely.
What I am saying is that the Zen buyers are actually competing with each other to buy the Zen because the amount of Zen sellers (thus the supply of Zen) is far less than the amoint of people looking to buy Zen (thus the demand of Zen). The Zen buyers are actually the creators of thier own price escelations.
"Great men are not peacemakers, Great men are conquerors!" - Captain Archer" "When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway #Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
Dil can be earned for free, why in the world would they give lobi which is an reward for opening lockboxes to all these entitlement freeloaders.
Grind more a swipe a credit card. As soon as you learn nothing is free in life maybe you will enjoy the game.
Freeloaders? Dil grinders spend more time grinding dil than Zen purchasers spend working their jobs. Also, without these "freeloaders," this MMORPG wouldn't be massively multiplayer.
As far as "market speculation" and wondering what Cryptic might/will do- keep this in mind...
higher Dil->Zen conversion ratio benefits Cryptic the most, as it makes their Zen more valuable, and more people will be forced to buy Zen with RL monies. Cryptic doesn't make anything from people who freeload.
Personally, I ignore the Dil->Zen conversion because it's so imbalanced, if I want something I simply buy Zen. If there's nothing that interests me in the C-Store, I simply don't buy any.
I think it only matters most to people who don't want to spend any money yet want to reap the rewards just for playing the game. Good luck with that, lemme know how it all works out for you years from now when you're still grinding away to get those C-Store ships.
Meanwhile, the rest of us will have already played and enjoyed the game.
No, what benefits Cryptic the most is whatever makes people buy the most Zen. Whether the exchange is at 40 or 400, if it makes people buy Zen, that's what Cryptic wants.
Regarding Cryptic "not making anything from people who freeload," exactly whom are you labeling as "freeloaders"? Surely not the people who buy Zen on the exchange, because without them, no one would buy Zen to sell for dil. There's nothing wrong with exchanging a resource they have (time) for a currency they don't have (cash). It happens in the real world all the time.
In the past, people bought zen for the purpose of obtaining dil to use in the game. Hardly anyone does anymore since there's really very little point to it anymore.
Because so few people buy zen to get dil, there isnt much zen available on the dilex, and its price in dil goes up and up and up.
Changing the game so that people have a compelling reason to spend real money to get dil again would lower the dilex, while at the same time giving people a reason to spend money.
Or... they could just do away with the Dil exchange altogether, convert the Dil sinks to EC and then voila! Instant resolution.
Except, freeloaders won't like it because they're forced to actually spend money on what they want outside of what's being offered for "free" to them in the game.
Hey, I'd like a nice Ferrari 360 Spyder, too- but I can't afford it. So you know what I do? I make do without.
You seem to have no understanding of what "free" and "freeloader" mean. When a tourist walks into your place of business, do you rage at them for being freeloaders and kick them out of your store? After all, they put effort into acquiring some sort of pretend money (like Euros or pounds) and then went to a dollar seller to get FREE MONEY, right?
It may be time to nerf Dilithium rewards to start the Dilithium reduction in-game. It may also be time to reduce the refinement cap from 8,000 Dilithium Ore to 6,000 down to 4,000 Dilithium Ore per day.
And thus massively hurt all the new players and casual players with limited playtime and players with single or 2-3 playable characters, for all of whom the current situation with dilithium incomes/refining is just enough to reach their daily refinement cap without putting too much extra effort into it.
Yes, that's a great idea. I'm sure it'll go so well with the general game audience. To **** a major part of the game's population in favor of a limited group of zen buyers.
I have to repeat this again - the game's economy cannot and should not be designed primarly in view of long-term players, who amassed a considerable stockpile of various resources, got their gear upgraded etc.
How in the world would it massively hurt new players? They would only have to grind 75% or 50% as much dil for the same result as now. If anything, it would force farmers to hop between characters/accounts more frequently to work around the caps.
If they let us spend unrefined dil there wouldn't be much of a problem.
Currently its a case of being able to hit the max refining limit on several characters every day.
Give us the option to buy stuff with unrefined dil, make it more expensive if you want to (say an item is 8000 refined dil, let us by it for 12000 unrefined dil), but give us to option to either stockpile dil to refine or use it as a currency.
I don't know how you managed to arrive at such a precisely wrong conclusion. Dil is experiencing massive inflation, and your solution is to print more of it? That doesn't make it easier to buy stuff, it makes the currency even more worthless than it already was.
I say let them raise the conversion limit- so that even the people who are here advocating for the cap raise get what they wish for... then when they go to supplement their own C-store purchases and realize how much their Dil has devalued, perhaps they'll take a long hard look at who the "pawns" really are in this game. (Hint: Cryptic controls this game)
The Dil/Zen conversion system was never designed to be something that allowed 1) People to get everything they want for "free" just by playing the game nor 2) An impossible means of obtaining what they want. It was meant to be a supplemental system in tandem with people buying Zen to buy goods, thus benefiting both Cryptic AND the players.
I've watched the rubber-banding, market speculation and everything else for years. It's not about "supply and demand" or any of that other BS. It's about people trying to manipulate the system to get what they want.
For those of you who haven't quite learned this valuable life lesson yet-
Money talks... BS walks.
Cryptic doesn't "owe" you a damned thing. They're a business, and businesses serve one purpose- to make money. It's not a non-profit charity.
Um, yes, it was designed to be something that allowed people to get everything they want for "free." It's intentionally more time-consuming than earning the equivalent required cash, but the dream that Cryptic sells is "you can play for free, and even get cash items via in-game effort."
Also, your attitude toward the people who allow Zen sellers to exist is quite distasteful.
Gee, we could just set a refinement cap 20k per day -- for the entire ACCOUNT. Casuals are completely unscathed and farmers stop overproducing to the point their crops have become worthless...
Casuals are completely unscathed, and farmers are unscathed because they use multiple accounts.
Just to show that the amount of effort it would take for a F2P player to aquire any decent amount of Zen effectively equates out to more 'work' than most people would put into their work lol. So calling them 'freeloaders' is at the very least a bit insensitive, so if you don't mind could you refrain from the namecalling please?
They play for "free" and create a "load" on the servers by utilizing resources, no? Not "namecalling" here, just stating facts.
As far as what they choose to do with their recreational time, if they wish to play a game with it, it's by all means their choice. How about them actually getting a job and working for RL money then spending it on Zen instead?
You see, perception is indeed a wonderful thing- and I agree it can be viewed many different ways.
Yes, calling people "freeloaders" (especially when they put in significant effort and still result in Cryptic getting paid) is insulting. You can deny it all you want, but it has about as much weight as an apology that goes "I'm sorry that you're easily offended."
The exchange is setup for those who pay to play, not those who play for free. Why in the world would Cryptic give a disadvantage to those who spend money to those who don't.
Go back to grinding, you might want to quit your day job to support your gaming fix.
Without "those who play for free," the Zen sellers would have no one to sell their Zen to, resulting in no easy source of dilithium for them and less Zen sales for Cryptic.
Go back to your day job so you can keep paying to skip the game you pretend to play.
There will never be a shortage of Zen sellers at the dilithium market maximum cap.
Uh, that is exactly where there is a shortage of Zen sellers. If the government makes it illegal to sell gasoline for more than fifty cents a gallon, guess how many business will find it worthwhile to sell gasoline? This is exactly what happened to Neverwinter: it hit the cap, and people stopped selling Zen because they were guaranteed a bad deal.
Quit assuming that a dil price of 200 to 300 is fair to all. I screws zen sellers.
How does it TRIBBLE Zen sellers? That price is set by the market. If sellers think that 1 Zen has as much value and utility as 200 dil, that's the rate they'll sell for. If not, they can sit on it. In the same way, very high rates TRIBBLE dil sellers. If they think 490 dil has as much value and utility as 1 Zen, that's the rate they'll buy at. If not, they can sit on it.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
If they could've gotten, say, 600 for it, then yeah. Hitting the cap means that's it's basically on clearance for 100% of the time. The further away the hypothetical uncapped price would've been from the cap, the worse off a Zen seller is. That's why Neverwinter doesn't even have any Zen available for its dil equivalent: sellers don't want to sell it at such a low price.
And why are you so upset? It's not like dil is hard to acquire. I don't even play the actual game (missions, red alerts, etc.) except for "grind this mission for a limited-time reward" events, and I hit the daily refine cap on seven characters. That plentiful supply is part of why the exchange is so high. The other reason is that Zen unlocks the fancy new ships/etc. while dil does not (high demand for Zen, low demand for dil).
I guess I feel a little remorse for my reply so I'll hold off on a doozie of a zinger and just say that anyone who cares about balance as opposed to selfish desires knows that 500 is absurd already. Cryptic themselves know this and said they will take steps to fix the imbalance.
When I played the game seriously the exchange was 120-130 for a very long time, so to me this is the desired rate. However, I realize that Cryptic (not the market) has changed things and this rate is no longer fair. The vast majority opinion I believe would say 250-300 is fair now. Cryptic will adjust things to make it what they believe is most efficient for their pocketbook. I don't believe anything they can do will bring it below 400 again unless they have the cojones to nerf contraband. But I feel confident they will keep it below 500 - even if this means posting zen themselves at 490.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
I'd argue that there is nothing inherently ridiculous about the current exchange rate - it is after all a simple question of supply and demand. During the "good ole days" of 120 dil per zen, it was relatively hard to come by; since then, Cryptic have steadily increased sources of supply, so that even major sinks (like the upgrade system and research lab) did little to arrest the trend. Personally, I think they need to look at the supply side for a change and cut back on rewards from the admiralty system - after all, we've almost gone from 250 to 500 since the system was introduced in October last year (IIRC).
If there is a problem, it's that the current system favours long-term players with multiple alts and large collections of ships, who can exploit admiralty to the maximum. On the other hand you could argue that players who've spent years getting to that position have earned the right.
I guess I feel a little remorse for my reply so I'll hold off on a doozie of a zinger and just say that anyone who cares about balance as opposed to selfish desires knows that 500 is absurd already. Cryptic themselves know this and said they will take steps to fix the imbalance.
When I played the game seriously the exchange was 120-130 for a very long time, so to me this is the desired rate. However, I realize that Cryptic (not the market) has changed things and this rate is no longer fair. The vast majority opinion I believe would say 250-300 is fair now. Cryptic will adjust things to make it what they believe is most efficient for their pocketbook. I don't believe anything they can do will bring it below 400 again unless they have the cojones to nerf contraband. But I feel confident they will keep it below 500 - even if this means posting zen themselves at 490.
I agree, it's absurdly high. But... what are you gonna buy with dil? The last thing I bought was every single ship from the shipyard for one of my alts so he could do admiralty more easily. Think back on new ships, costumes, and other cool/fun stuff. Did it cost dil? No. It cost Zen, or keys (i.e. Zen), or logging in every day (metrics). Dil doesn't get content, it gets "sinks," in the form of fleets and upgrading. There is nothing awesome to buy with dil.
Of course, this makes perfect sense. Items for dil only make Cryptic money if the buyer got the dil by selling Zen, while items for Zen are guaranteed to generate revenue on every sale. That would be the most obvious way of calming the dil exchange: actually sell cool new things for dil rather than exclusively for Zen/metrics.
I used to think that keeping a playerbase healthy and happy was a good defense against player-unfriendly decisions, but nearly every game nowadays has proven that hilariously wrong. The games that shaft their players the hardest are making the biggest profits. Here's hoping that Cryptic/PWE can manage to avoid the worst of that temptation.
I guess I feel a little remorse for my reply so I'll hold off on a doozie of a zinger and just say that anyone who cares about balance as opposed to selfish desires knows that 500 is absurd already. Cryptic themselves know this and said they will take steps to fix the imbalance.
When I played the game seriously the exchange was 120-130 for a very long time, so to me this is the desired rate. However, I realize that Cryptic (not the market) has changed things and this rate is no longer fair. The vast majority opinion I believe would say 250-300 is fair now. Cryptic will adjust things to make it what they believe is most efficient for their pocketbook. I don't believe anything they can do will bring it below 400 again unless they have the cojones to nerf contraband. But I feel confident they will keep it below 500 - even if this means posting zen themselves at 490.
I agree, it's absurdly high. But... what are you gonna buy with dil? The last thing I bought was every single ship from the shipyard for one of my alts so he could do admiralty more easily. Think back on new ships, costumes, and other cool/fun stuff. Did it cost dil? No. It cost Zen, or keys (i.e. Zen), or logging in every day (metrics). Dil doesn't get content, it gets "sinks," in the form of fleets and upgrading. There is nothing awesome to buy with dil.
Of course, this makes perfect sense. Items for dil only make Cryptic money if the buyer got the dil by selling Zen, while items for Zen are guaranteed to generate revenue on every sale. That would be the most obvious way of calming the dil exchange: actually sell cool new things for dil rather than exclusively for Zen/metrics.
I used to think that keeping a playerbase healthy and happy was a good defense against player-unfriendly decisions, but nearly every game nowadays has proven that hilariously wrong. The games that shaft their players the hardest are making the biggest profits. Here's hoping that Cryptic/PWE can manage to avoid the worst of that temptation.
I agree with all of this. I was pointing out yesterday that the carrot is the way to go as players will simply avoid the stick (sink). We've seen many suggestions. The only one that would get me to spend big is housing. Once again Cryptic I tell yee - 10 million refined is yours today for a ski lodge on Andoria. We'll see what they do. My guess is just the fleet holding they were planning on doing anyway, maybe bumped up to September. It wont move the exchange 10 points.
Removing contraband from the game might move it 50.
STO has always been VERY generous. Timelines, for example, does not give one tiny pebble of dilithium and have said basically it's not going to happen. If you have charted the exchange rate you will see that February to today has been the real problem - 250 to 500 in 5 months. I honestly believe they want to keep it reasonable for grinders. I think they value grinders and are worried about losing them now.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
What I am saying is that the Zen buyers are actually competing with each other to buy the Zen because the amount of Zen sellers (thus the supply of Zen) is far less than the amoint of people looking to buy Zen (thus the demand of Zen). The Zen buyers are actually the creators of thier own price escelations.
Yeah, I think that's the point I was trying to make.. Except from the opposite perspective. Less demand for dilithium = less people willing to sell Zen for Dilithium, so the supply on the exchange decreases, contributing to the increaseed rates.
You are right, though, right now the demand for Zen is so high that dil grinders are scooping up as much Zen as they can get, driving the rates up.
Apologies if I wasn't being very clear, I should really get some sleep one of these days...
Last time I dumped a significant amount of Zen into the market, I got 324 dil to Zen. And this was before nearly everything in the game cost dilithium to upgrade. Yesterday I had 750 bonus Zen in my account, dumped it all at 487 dilithium rate, it was GLORIOUS! 365,250 dilithium KA CHING! Im a casual player, still under 10 toons, this stash should hold me a while at the rate I play and get around to upgrading weapons. I still had just over 100k dilithium from my last windfall selloff from a few YEARS ago. As a player willing to pay into this game about $50 a year, I want a good return on my investment. To me, the established range should be 300-500 dil to Zen. Less than 300, dil sellers are ripping off Zen sellers. Its still JUST a game, and these are just digital goods that disappear whatever day the game does. Im not giving away MY real money for peanuts to the freeloaders, you gotta EARN that Zen beotch! I stood my ground and refused to sell Zen at less than 300. Now the Zen seller days are here again and Im loving every minute of it. Cryptic should cater to US, we're the ones putting REAL money into this game. TRIBBLE the freeloaders who cry when its above 300!
STO: @AGNT009 Since Dec 2010
Capt. Will Conquest of the U.S.S. Crusader
Last time I dumped a significant amount of Zen into the market, I got 324 dil to Zen. And this was before nearly everything in the game cost dilithium to upgrade. Yesterday I had 750 bonus Zen in my account, dumped it all at 487 dilithium rate, it was GLORIOUS! 365,250 dilithium KA CHING! Im a casual player, still under 10 toons, this stash should hold me a while at the rate I play and get around to upgrading weapons. I still had just over 100k dilithium from my last windfall selloff from a few YEARS ago. As a player willing to pay into this game about $50 a year, I want a good return on my investment. To me, the established range should be 300-500 dil to Zen. Less than 300, dil sellers are ripping off Zen sellers. Its still JUST a game, and these are just digital goods that disappear whatever day the game does. Im not giving away MY real money for peanuts to the freeloaders, you gotta EARN that Zen beotch! I stood my ground and refused to sell Zen at less than 300. Now the Zen seller days are here again and Im loving every minute of it. Cryptic should cater to US, we're the ones putting REAL money into this game. **** the freeloaders who cry when its above 300!
300 was actually reasonable. And stop whining that we are taking your money. You're the ONE that chose to pay Cryptic $50 for zen. Not us. Get over yourself please.
"Great men are not peacemakers, Great men are conquerors!" - Captain Archer" "When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway #Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
Oh well , I guess we should have more event-after-event-after-event-after-event , with all of them giving out Dil awards + no Dil sinks and then claim that Cryptic do not manipulate the Dil exchange (because papa Smurf said so !) .
This lockbox will destroy STO's economy for years to come if Cryptic doesn't do something about it...
I usually don't care about lockboxes but even I want all 4 ships...
You can kiss goodbye sub-500 zen for at least a year...
I'd say the economy was already destroyed when the Infinity Lockbox was introduced. The Kelvin Lockbox though will likely keep the exchange at 500 if we're not yet there.
I do not apologize for any of my earlier posts. When the F2Pers start talking about how their time is less valuable due to the dil exchange and the wip out some math to prove their point just screams stupidity. This is a game, if you, with in your right not to pay money into this game, you will grind your butts off with a bar that keeps moving because in the end money talks and your BS walks.
On the bright side I got a lot of stuff I wanted from the exchange in a panic they dropped the price on things in order to buy keys. I got lot of stuff 50% discount. I am sure the sellers are sobbing they saved me a lot of energy credits.
"Great men are not peacemakers, Great men are conquerors!" - Captain Archer" "When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway #Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
@sheldoncooper, the comment about 500:1 being a bad deal in neverwinter has context. Here in sto 500:1 is the cap, but nw had another route to convert zen. Their auctionhouse runs on dil (astrals), not ec (gold). When I was still playing there were times that zen commodities (keys, coal wards, etc) were selling for over 600:1 on the auctionhouse, making the 500:1 exchange a really bad deal. In sto that mechanic doesn't apply.
So your comment was right as far as sto, 500:1 is the best deal possible for a seller. But so was his, in neverwinter.
Thought you might appreciate the context even though the conversation has moved on.
@sheldoncooper, the comment about 500:1 being a bad deal in neverwinter has context. Here in sto 500:1 is the cap, but nw had another route to convert zen. Their auctionhouse runs on dil (astrals), not ec (gold). When I was still playing there were times that zen commodities (keys, coal wards, etc) were selling for over 600:1 on the auctionhouse, making the 500:1 exchange a really bad deal. In sto that mechanic doesn't apply.
So your comment was right as far as sto, 500:1 is the best deal possible for a seller. But so was his, in neverwinter.
Thought you might appreciate the context even though the conversation has moved on.
I see that as relevant to the conversation currently, context being a "dil sink", which is one of the things the game currently needs more of right now. People are currently stockpiling Dil because there's not really much of value to spend it on, then converting it to Zen to avoid laying down cash to buy Zen. (not the only reason people are stockpiling, but one of them)
It's not you- it's me. I just need my space.
Being critical doesn't take skill. Being constructively critical- which is providing alternative solutions or suggestions to a demonstrated problem, however, does.
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"When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway
#Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
Exactly, there is a high demand for Zen right now. But little demand for dilithium, so the rates go up.
To keep things from exacerbating too far Cryptic should consider releasing content which requires dilithium to even out the demand for each resource. Otherwise we risk seeing an economic situation much like what was in Neverwinter a short time ago.
I have no idea what you said. I was implying I know nothing about economies.
@orion0029 its not even the amount of dil in the exchange vs the amount if Zen in the exchange as much the amount of people offering dil vs the amount of people offering Zen. There are too much of an inbalance in the amount of people entering the Zen selling side vs people entering the Zen buying side as well.
Right now, I bet you that if they cut the dil refining cap to 6k a day the exchange rate would barely even skip a beat, not because sellers are "greedy", its because Zen buyers have to compete with each other for the same resource.
It wouldn't be the first time that happened in an MMO.
But who in their right mind would bother botting STO? This game isn't worth botting.
Well, if they get banned they'd be free. I guess that's 1 way out.
Yup, it's all about the amount of demand one group of people have for a resource pitted against the other group's supply of their resource.
Your argument would imply that Zen sellers aren't in any real competition for dilithium on the market, which the evidence supports with the current rates. So the demand for Zen is higher than the demand for dilithium.
I think we're getting on the same page now, there is no shortage in supply of dilithium, so there isn't much of that would get in the way for a Zen seller to sell their resource at high rates.
Interestingly enough, I wonder what would happen to the exchange if all the Zen sellers finish off the current dil sinks and have no further reason to sell Zen...
Edit: Wait a frig... I may need more coffee, did I interpret your comment correctly?
This is actually a "sound" theory- the market has climbed over and over again in the last year or so, increasing steadily. Never have I seen it actually "drop" below a few points, it's always gone higher.
People are right when they say dilithium has flooded the market- and while some say "plenty" of Dil sinks exist, I have to disagree. If that were the case you wouldn't have so much Dil floating around out there for Zen sellers to snatch up.
Being critical doesn't take skill. Being constructively critical- which is providing alternative solutions or suggestions to a demonstrated problem, however, does.
@orion0029
What I am saying is that the Zen buyers are actually competing with each other to buy the Zen because the amount of Zen sellers (thus the supply of Zen) is far less than the amoint of people looking to buy Zen (thus the demand of Zen). The Zen buyers are actually the creators of thier own price escelations.
@tomilak
Why exactly are you correlating the exchange rate with buying Zen for cash? There is no real, direct correlation. That makes no sense.
"When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway
#Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
Freeloaders? Dil grinders spend more time grinding dil than Zen purchasers spend working their jobs. Also, without these "freeloaders," this MMORPG wouldn't be massively multiplayer.
It hit the cap and now there's no Zen for sale in the exchange anymore, because the Zen sellers are guaranteed a raw deal.
No, what benefits Cryptic the most is whatever makes people buy the most Zen. Whether the exchange is at 40 or 400, if it makes people buy Zen, that's what Cryptic wants.
Regarding Cryptic "not making anything from people who freeload," exactly whom are you labeling as "freeloaders"? Surely not the people who buy Zen on the exchange, because without them, no one would buy Zen to sell for dil. There's nothing wrong with exchanging a resource they have (time) for a currency they don't have (cash). It happens in the real world all the time.
You seem to have no understanding of what "free" and "freeloader" mean. When a tourist walks into your place of business, do you rage at them for being freeloaders and kick them out of your store? After all, they put effort into acquiring some sort of pretend money (like Euros or pounds) and then went to a dollar seller to get FREE MONEY, right?
How in the world would it massively hurt new players? They would only have to grind 75% or 50% as much dil for the same result as now. If anything, it would force farmers to hop between characters/accounts more frequently to work around the caps.
I don't know how you managed to arrive at such a precisely wrong conclusion. Dil is experiencing massive inflation, and your solution is to print more of it? That doesn't make it easier to buy stuff, it makes the currency even more worthless than it already was.
Um, yes, it was designed to be something that allowed people to get everything they want for "free." It's intentionally more time-consuming than earning the equivalent required cash, but the dream that Cryptic sells is "you can play for free, and even get cash items via in-game effort."
Also, your attitude toward the people who allow Zen sellers to exist is quite distasteful.
Casuals are completely unscathed, and farmers are unscathed because they use multiple accounts.
Yes, calling people "freeloaders" (especially when they put in significant effort and still result in Cryptic getting paid) is insulting. You can deny it all you want, but it has about as much weight as an apology that goes "I'm sorry that you're easily offended."
Without "those who play for free," the Zen sellers would have no one to sell their Zen to, resulting in no easy source of dilithium for them and less Zen sales for Cryptic.
Go back to your day job so you can keep paying to skip the game you pretend to play.
Uh, that is exactly where there is a shortage of Zen sellers. If the government makes it illegal to sell gasoline for more than fifty cents a gallon, guess how many business will find it worthwhile to sell gasoline? This is exactly what happened to Neverwinter: it hit the cap, and people stopped selling Zen because they were guaranteed a bad deal.
How does it TRIBBLE Zen sellers? That price is set by the market. If sellers think that 1 Zen has as much value and utility as 200 dil, that's the rate they'll sell for. If not, they can sit on it. In the same way, very high rates TRIBBLE dil sellers. If they think 490 dil has as much value and utility as 1 Zen, that's the rate they'll buy at. If not, they can sit on it.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
If they could've gotten, say, 600 for it, then yeah. Hitting the cap means that's it's basically on clearance for 100% of the time. The further away the hypothetical uncapped price would've been from the cap, the worse off a Zen seller is. That's why Neverwinter doesn't even have any Zen available for its dil equivalent: sellers don't want to sell it at such a low price.
And why are you so upset? It's not like dil is hard to acquire. I don't even play the actual game (missions, red alerts, etc.) except for "grind this mission for a limited-time reward" events, and I hit the daily refine cap on seven characters. That plentiful supply is part of why the exchange is so high. The other reason is that Zen unlocks the fancy new ships/etc. while dil does not (high demand for Zen, low demand for dil).
When I played the game seriously the exchange was 120-130 for a very long time, so to me this is the desired rate. However, I realize that Cryptic (not the market) has changed things and this rate is no longer fair. The vast majority opinion I believe would say 250-300 is fair now. Cryptic will adjust things to make it what they believe is most efficient for their pocketbook. I don't believe anything they can do will bring it below 400 again unless they have the cojones to nerf contraband. But I feel confident they will keep it below 500 - even if this means posting zen themselves at 490.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
If there is a problem, it's that the current system favours long-term players with multiple alts and large collections of ships, who can exploit admiralty to the maximum. On the other hand you could argue that players who've spent years getting to that position have earned the right.
I agree, it's absurdly high. But... what are you gonna buy with dil? The last thing I bought was every single ship from the shipyard for one of my alts so he could do admiralty more easily. Think back on new ships, costumes, and other cool/fun stuff. Did it cost dil? No. It cost Zen, or keys (i.e. Zen), or logging in every day (metrics). Dil doesn't get content, it gets "sinks," in the form of fleets and upgrading. There is nothing awesome to buy with dil.
Of course, this makes perfect sense. Items for dil only make Cryptic money if the buyer got the dil by selling Zen, while items for Zen are guaranteed to generate revenue on every sale. That would be the most obvious way of calming the dil exchange: actually sell cool new things for dil rather than exclusively for Zen/metrics.
I used to think that keeping a playerbase healthy and happy was a good defense against player-unfriendly decisions, but nearly every game nowadays has proven that hilariously wrong. The games that shaft their players the hardest are making the biggest profits. Here's hoping that Cryptic/PWE can manage to avoid the worst of that temptation.
I agree with all of this. I was pointing out yesterday that the carrot is the way to go as players will simply avoid the stick (sink). We've seen many suggestions. The only one that would get me to spend big is housing. Once again Cryptic I tell yee - 10 million refined is yours today for a ski lodge on Andoria. We'll see what they do. My guess is just the fleet holding they were planning on doing anyway, maybe bumped up to September. It wont move the exchange 10 points.
Removing contraband from the game might move it 50.
STO has always been VERY generous. Timelines, for example, does not give one tiny pebble of dilithium and have said basically it's not going to happen. If you have charted the exchange rate you will see that February to today has been the real problem - 250 to 500 in 5 months. I honestly believe they want to keep it reasonable for grinders. I think they value grinders and are worried about losing them now.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
Yeah, I think that's the point I was trying to make.. Except from the opposite perspective. Less demand for dilithium = less people willing to sell Zen for Dilithium, so the supply on the exchange decreases, contributing to the increaseed rates.
You are right, though, right now the demand for Zen is so high that dil grinders are scooping up as much Zen as they can get, driving the rates up.
Apologies if I wasn't being very clear, I should really get some sleep one of these days...
Capt. Will Conquest of the U.S.S. Crusader
300 was actually reasonable. And stop whining that we are taking your money. You're the ONE that chose to pay Cryptic $50 for zen. Not us. Get over yourself please.
"When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway
#Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
Makes perfect sense .
I usually don't care about lockboxes but even I want all 4 ships...
You can kiss goodbye sub-500 zen for at least a year...
I'd say the economy was already destroyed when the Infinity Lockbox was introduced. The Kelvin Lockbox though will likely keep the exchange at 500 if we're not yet there.
And a lot of other people (like me) would say the opposite.
The Infinity Lock Box greatly improved the economy.
"When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway
#Support Mirror Universe I.S.S. Prefixes
So your comment was right as far as sto, 500:1 is the best deal possible for a seller. But so was his, in neverwinter.
Thought you might appreciate the context even though the conversation has moved on.
I see that as relevant to the conversation currently, context being a "dil sink", which is one of the things the game currently needs more of right now. People are currently stockpiling Dil because there's not really much of value to spend it on, then converting it to Zen to avoid laying down cash to buy Zen. (not the only reason people are stockpiling, but one of them)
Being critical doesn't take skill. Being constructively critical- which is providing alternative solutions or suggestions to a demonstrated problem, however, does.