IT IS THE 50th ANNIVERSARY of THE ORIGINAL SERIES.
How on God's Green Earth did ANYBODY think that an expansion for that event, would be about the Klingon's and/or Romulans?
(or anything else but the Federation)
They do create stuff for everyone, they've created a TON of cross faction stuff this past year or so. Minorities will not however be given preferential treatment because that would be unfair to EVERYONE ELSE... this is the failure in logic of people who take up causes like this is that they want more more more and don't give a TRIBBLE who has to sacrifice for them to get it. It's all about them and what they want and it's extremely selfish.
Asking for the same level of attention as another group five times your size is asking for preferential treatment.
You know, with the numerous complaints floating around about the KDF/RR receiving no attention, I remain completely baffled that some still argue for a Cardassian faction.
Why? So you can say "what about the RR/KDF/Cardassians the next time new non-faction specific content is introduced? Because you KNOW that's what would happen.
No, so they can complain that the Cardies get all the spotlight while the Romulans and Klingons aren't fleshed out yet!
Personally, I like the idea that Geko floated - additional factions might be done as level 50+/60+ only factions.
The problem I have with adding in a Cardassian faction is that they would then need to devote resources to flesh out their T6 ships. While it does seems that a lot of people want a Cardassian faction (similar to how a lot of people seemed to have wanted the Romulan faction), the problem is what percentage of all active captains will be in that faction? The Fed faction would still dominate a combined Cardassian / KDF / Romulan faction.
Yes. And that's why they should stop making more factions and instead work on merging the existing ones into one. STO clearly can't sustain a balanced multifaction economy and its counterproductive to maintain "second class" factions when the storyline doesn't demand it.
Come on now, stop thinking as a player and start thinking as a business for a minute.
I really hope you don't run/manage a business IRL. Any business I would run would follow the age old concept of 'if someone walks in your door with 35cents in their pocket you want that 35cents before they leave. This means a, good, business should have something for EVERYONE, not just the whiney majority. It should have some cheap things to buy some expensive things, it should have stuff for the X, the Y, and the Z. Will I "stock my shelves" with a majority of stuff for X? Sure! But utterly neglecting the other 2 is shooting myself in the foot.
The whole "utterly neglecting" thing... It's one of these typical forum exaggeration argumentation techniques that means exactly nothing.
Cryptic has never "uttlery neglected" any faction. What do you think all those Romulan and Klingon Tier 6 ships in those cross-factions were? Or what the custom improvements/fixes for Klingons have been that were released lately?
There is one thing in this game that deserves the title of being "utter neglect by Cryptic", I think. And that's PvP. That is something that hasn't seen support, additions or improvements in years.
If you call the additions and fixes Cryptic made for the Klingon and Romulan faction as utter neglect, you should not be surprised if Cryptic eventually really gives up and certainly has absolutely no desire to engage with anyone of you. You have already proven yourself to be extremely unreasonable and not worth talking to. Their enthusiasm in supporting you would be automatically removed the moment they get exposed to anything what you say. The only think that keeps giving you a chance since there is at least still some income to be generated by you.
And hey, Cryptic, I think you're really cool and all, but could you please fix Material 5 on my Neg'Tev, enable the B'Rolth skin on my Kor, and enable Material 5 on the T6 Bortas? Thanks. Also, a Tier 6 Hegh'ta, Vor'Cha or Dyson (Rom and KDF) would be nice.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Come on now, stop thinking as a player and start thinking as a business for a minute.
I really hope you don't run/manage a business IRL. Any business I would run would follow the age old concept of 'if someone walks in your door with 35cents in their pocket you want that 35cents before they leave. This means a, good, business should have something for EVERYONE, not just the whiney majority. It should have some cheap things to buy some expensive things, it should have stuff for the X, the Y, and the Z. Will I "stock my shelves" with a majority of stuff for X? Sure! But utterly neglecting the other 2 is shooting myself in the foot.
the problem with your reasoning is A: hyperbole(you say "utterly neglecting", but that requires you to provide NO service at all), B: in the end all businesses have to specialize to at least a certain extent. That starts by asking themselves how much of a product they can reasonably expect to sell. As has been pointed out several times.... product development costs time and money. Selling at a loss is unprofitable. Businesses NEED to make a profit or they close.
What do you think all those Romulan and Klingon Tier 6 ships in those cross-factions were? Or what the custom improvements/fixes for Klingons have been that were released lately?
If you call the additions and fixes Cryptic made for the Klingon and Romulan faction as utter neglect,
We're not talking about fixes and exactly what additions have they made hmm? I've yet to see any new Klink/Rom missions. I've also not seen them drop any new ships unless they were reskins of what they made for the feds.
As has been pointed out several times.... product development costs time and money. Selling at a loss is unprofitable. Businesses NEED to make a profit or they close.
And I am fairly certain they have never "lost" money on any ship they've tossed out for sale. But unless we get a really detailed look at their books neither of us can support an argument either way
For all the purists (I have a main toon for each faction and play them all regularly, plus 1 alt for every faction over 50[other games to play]) you are just going to have to deal with 1 fact that keeps more content being shoveled your way.
Anything not federation DOES NOT SELL VERY WELL. That is the overwhelming fact of life. Since KDF/ROM doesn't sell, they focus more of their time on what does.
Remember kids, it's not PWE/Cryptic's job to put out an awesome game equal for all. It's their job to make MONEY. For profit business. So they make an ADDICTING game, which happens to be pretty good, but that's merely a biproduct.
Till KDF and ROM sales start going up, you won't get squat. I'm not saying this to be mean, I'm just pointing at the writing on the wall many hardcore KDF and ROM players simply can't handle.
The ability to be so ignorant of history and defensive of circular logic is astounding.
I'm not. You're just blind to the truth. Do you realize if you looked at the stats, and did it per person average, Federation time and again outspends both factions combined.
And you're looking at it from a "player" standpoint. Look at it from a "business" standpoint. Does it make sense and is it good business to spend time and effort building something(or somethings) for 30%(maybe) of the player population and the other 70% that pays the bigger faction probably won't even touch?
Or is it better business sense to put out something the big faction probably wants, and will attract a lot of new spenders who want that particular endeavor and create a lot more income. Which will make a nice quarterly earning statement for the major stockholders which means assured paycheck and likely a nice bonus too.
Come on now, stop thinking as a player and start thinking as a business for a minute.
Now just to make a point, my main KDF is a female orion Science officer(and she runs around in the intel outfit thankyou). But back to the point. Would I LOVE to have a federation level KDF science ship for my KDF Sci officer? You bet your tail I would. Is it likely to happen? Based on what I've said, no. And considering the focus on the 50th anniversary and all that entails, I am not expecting it any time soon.
So really, your reply is equivalent to a 2 year old having a temper tantrum because you can't see the forest for the trees.
No, you are still using circular logic, and you are choosing to ignore the fact that Cryptic have been systematically favouring the Federation from the start - the KDF stuff didn't sell because they were exercises in mediocrity to justify not having to develop for them.
You accuse me of looking at it from the wrong perspective, when it is you who is choosing to ignore the bias that was in the developers from the start.
Now, I don't have to restate it, @patrickngo already put together a decent, if short, summary of it.
KDF sci ships at T5 and T6:
Varanus+fleet
Dysons
Korath
Terrible or broken rehashes of Fed-side table scraps. Proven it doesn't sell? They haven't even proved they have tried to sell a Klingon Sci ship, because the first is a worse version of a freebie Fed ship - and it was one of the worst Fed-ships at that - the Dysons were all terrible.
Feds:
Deep Space Science Vessel+fleet, and Mirror Deep Space Science Vessel
Reconnaissance Science Vessel+Fleet, and Mirror Reconnaissance Science Vessel
Science Vessel retrofit+Fleet, and Mirror Science Vessel retrofit
Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit+Fleet
D'Kyr
Multi-Mission Explorers
T5 and T6 Intrepids
Dauntless
Scryer
Not even half.
Carriers? A former KDF exclusive? Well, the Karfi is invisible because they broke it, and it has been broke for months now. And while the KDF had to put up with broken AI for hanger pets for years, when the Feds got carriers the problems were -largely- fixed.
And the only T6 full Carrier is for Feds.
C-Store ship consoles? Anything good was looted for cross-factioning.
When STO started, you had to level up a Fed in order to unlock KDF, then you pretty much had to PvP in order to level because it took until they added the Romulans to complete the levelling content.
Battlecruisers? The Mogh was delayed for months so that the Avenger could be released, and when it was, it was made to be the better ship.
Delta Rising T6s - Feds? 2 Cruisers, 2 Sci ships, an escort - Romulans 2 ships, KDF 2 ships.
Temporal Agent pack as it stands: Feds 4, Rom/KDF 2 Fed ships made cross faction.
And they aren't bothering with the cross-faction bit - are there differences between these three?*
At least they bothered to reskin for the Korath, Krenn, R'Mor and Talvath...
Your entire position assumes that the KDF and Feds were given equal development and equipment, and it was only after that that KDF went undeveloped, and that is not the case - they made stuff for KDF below the Fed standard in order to say KDF stuff doesn't sell.
Why? Because the devs only like Feds. They have shown that from the start. When you have the
And to turn your own point around - why not actually do a proper job of equal treatment and grow the almost masochistically loyal to stick around this long KDF and Rom players, and make money from all 3 factions? Because it can be done, they just choose not to do it.
Why? Because the devs only like Feds. They have shown that from the start. When you have the
And to turn your own point around - why not actually do a proper job of equal treatment and grow the almost masochistically loyal to stick around this long KDF and Rom players, and make money from all 3 factions? Because it can be done, they just choose not to do it.
That doesn't make any sense. Why would they make the factions then? If they just choose not to make money from them?
Undoubtedly they did intend to make money from the factions and that's why they created them. But turns out most players want to play Fed so the other factions don't have enough sales. IMO it was a mistake to make the factions. It would've been more profitable to keep the single (Fed) faction and just sell KDF/Rom ships, not dividing their customer base. The KDF/Rom fans would've bought them anyway and maybe some Fed-only players would have too, if they weren't forbidden.
The Devs did add "Visual Slots" to the ships, just before they started releasing these "faction-agnostic" ships.
What if they mean to eventually give us a "KDF Temporal Visuals" and "RR Temporal Visuals" and "FED Temporal Visuals" packages for these "faction-agnostic" ships?
They can now make one ship with the settings needed....sell it to everyone. Then just make these visual packages if we want changes?
Doesn't this make more sense than making artwork and building 3 different ships. It gives them flexibility as they add factions in the future, also. And flexibility to sell different themes on these visual packages.
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
As has been pointed out several times.... product development costs time and money. Selling at a loss is unprofitable. Businesses NEED to make a profit or they close.
And I am fairly certain they have never "lost" money on any ship they've tossed out for sale. But unless we get a really detailed look at their books neither of us can support an argument either way
Actually there have been official comments to that effect.
As has been pointed out several times.... product development costs time and money. Selling at a loss is unprofitable. Businesses NEED to make a profit or they close.
And I am fairly certain they have never "lost" money on any ship they've tossed out for sale. But unless we get a really detailed look at their books neither of us can support an argument either way
Actually there have been official comments to that effect.
Official comments does not "a look at their books" make.
What if they mean to eventually give us a "KDF Temporal Visuals" and "RR Temporal Visuals" and "FED Temporal Visuals" packages for these "faction-agnostic" ships?
I think you're close to the mark... visual slots can open the door to a lot of costumes and z-store package options, not just temporal
As a KDF player primarily... I kinda hope they'll toss us a bone or two with some ToS inspired Klink ships. I love that old Klingon design, and would love a T6 version of the ORIGINAL cruiser!
Otherwise... meh. Another alt to see what they got, then back to stomping around in my Fleet Vo'Quv.
What if they mean to eventually give us a "KDF Temporal Visuals" and "RR Temporal Visuals" and "FED Temporal Visuals" packages for these "faction-agnostic" ships?
I think you're close to the mark... visual slots can open the door to a lot of costumes and z-store package options, not just temporal
I used "Temporal" as an example...because that was what we were looking at.
You are right, they could create any theme...for any faction. And in combination with faction-agnostic ships that anyone could buy and use, that should take the pressure off the cooker.
Character creation is flexible and so many races, already, plus alien generator...there needs to be some sort of flexibility with ships and ship visuals that is viable no matter what race or faction you make the captain.
I am sure they will still make faction specific ships because I can't see Romulans not getting their T-6 Scimitar, eventually, and I won't give up flying my BoP...etc...etc... And what ever new factions that are incoming....they have their own signature ships, too.
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
As has been pointed out several times.... product development costs time and money. Selling at a loss is unprofitable. Businesses NEED to make a profit or they close.
And I am fairly certain they have never "lost" money on any ship they've tossed out for sale. But unless we get a really detailed look at their books neither of us can support an argument either way
Actually there have been official comments to that effect.
Official comments does not "a look at their books" make.
It's the closest you'll ever get without a court order. Also, if you did get to look the court order would likely prohibit you from sharing the information.
Maybe the reason why KDF doesn't sell well because there are simply less items in the store?
Nah, I don't buy that. Why? Market dilution. Example:
Say you have 50 Fed Players and 50 KDF. Each of them has enough zen to buy one ship in the store.
The Fed players each have 10 options to choose from to find something that fits their play style. This means that on average there will be 5 purchases of each ship. Individual ships may be more or less.
But the KDF only have 5 options. Thus each of the ships gets bought 10 times.
But that's not what actually happens. In practice there's something like 5 Feds for every KDF or more. So instead of 50 and 50 it's 50 and 10 or less. By extension this means that while the fed ships get 5 sales each, the KDF would only get TWO.
Why? Because the devs only like Feds. They have shown that from the start. When you have the
And to turn your own point around - why not actually do a proper job of equal treatment and grow the almost masochistically loyal to stick around this long KDF and Rom players, and make money from all 3 factions? Because it can be done, they just choose not to do it.
That doesn't make any sense. Why would they make the factions then? If they just choose not to make money from them?
Undoubtedly they did intend to make money from the factions and that's why they created them. But turns out most players want to play Fed so the other factions don't have enough sales. IMO it was a mistake to make the factions. It would've been more profitable to keep the single (Fed) faction and just sell KDF/Rom ships, not dividing their customer base. The KDF/Rom fans would've bought them anyway and maybe some Fed-only players would have too, if they weren't forbidden.
Legacy things from the original game they took over.
Of course people will want to play Feds; it is what the IP is about. But to only be able to make money off of 70% of your players means you are doing something wrong with the 30%.
That 30% is further divided in half and it takes the same amount of time and money to design and build additions for each faction. The up front costs for development are very large and have to atleast make the money back.
They have plenty of crossfaction goodies to make money off the full 100% however.
That 30% is further divided in half and it takes the same amount of time and money to design and build additions for each faction. The up front costs for development are very large and have to atleast make the money back.
They have plenty of crossfaction goodies to make money off the full 100% however.
Yeah, the recent escort 3-pack is a good example of how they do in fact care about making ships for Rom and KDF. Also... the flagship 9-pack....
Well from a storyline standpoint I do find this a bit disappointing that the Klingons and Romulans seem to have taken a “backseat” to this new expansion.
We had captains from both these factions up until recently going back and forth in time to confront the Na’Khul and now that we are to go back to the TOS era the two factions don’t seem to have a role in it.
I would have liked to seen something where three captains from the three factions had to go back in time and join their respective factions and at the same time work a problem that requires the input from all three captains.
As a player that just means if you have three different faction captains, then you get to see much more of the story and the Star Trek universe of that era. That to me is what an expansion should be about.
Were they working on this for over a year? Because from what I understand the excuse is there was not enough time to develop a storyline or the ships, missions bases etc etc for all three factions. I get the feeling part of the problem was due to something the playerbase has been clamoring about since Legacy of Romulans in that a lot of players did not like (including me) a faction aligned Romulan story.
Now we have an expansion that in no way could support the faction aligned dynamic as the Romulans were enemies to both the Federation and the Klingons. In fact all three factions were enemies.
I do think I will enjoy this new expansion for my Fed captains but I can’t help but feel a bit left out on behalf of my Klingon and Romulan captains.
"There is iron in your words of death for all Comanche to see, and so there is iron in your words of life. No signed paper can hold the iron. It must come from men. The words of Ten Bears carries the same iron of life and death. It is good that warriors such as we meet in the struggle of life... or death. It shall be life." - Ten Bears (Will Sampson)
They developed a new faction really it just can use fed stuff at max level. It isn't entirely different from how the Romulans work. Asking them to do what you propose would basically be adding three new factions at once. No way in hell they could do that.
Just this one meant an entirely new set of leveling missions, new sector space, characters and voice actors, all models and most locations... etc. I mean you really have no idea what all went into this, none of us do.
What do you think all those Romulan and Klingon Tier 6 ships in those cross-factions were? Or what the custom improvements/fixes for Klingons have been that were released lately?
If you call the additions and fixes Cryptic made for the Klingon and Romulan faction as utter neglect,
We're not talking about fixes and exactly what additions have they made hmm? I've yet to see any new Klink/Rom missions. I've also not seen them drop any new ships unless they were reskins of what they made for the feds.
They are not just reskins. The Valiant, Kor and Malem are three similar, but hardly identical ships. The latter two even get enhanced battle cloak. Practically every Klingon or Romulan ship is a Federation ship with at least cloak as extra whistle added on. (Often even more than that.)
Sometimes they even win considerably in the Tier 6 retrofits. The Kolasi grew a hangar bay in its Tier 6 transition, the Bortasque became more maneuverable.
And I argue even if they were total copy & pastes with no mechanical differences - that#s probably still preferable to something like the Federation getting a ship with a trait like Reprocity and the Klingons getting Overwhelming Force. In short, it ensures that all factions also have access to similar abilities and no one gets to have an uber advantages.
But t he mechanical differences are meaningless anyway. The real work goes into the ship designs, and no matter what you do, a Valiant and a Kor look completely different, and fit their respetive factions.
The real disappointment for me was that they didn't make the Jupiter part of a cross-faction pack. It makes me wonder if Carriers are actually not all that popular in STO - compare it to the glut of Cruisers we have in game.
Terrible or broken rehashes of Fed-side table scraps. Proven it doesn't sell? They haven't even proved they have tried to sell a Klingon Sci ship, because the first is a worse version of a freebie Fed ship - and it was one of the worst Fed-ships at that - the Dysons were all terrible.
The Dyson Science Vessels were however the first science vessels ever with secondary deflectors and it took what - over a year until that was finally applied to all other science vessels. And the bugs it had were not faction-specific. All factions suffered from that. But at least the Klingon and Romulan variants of the Dyson had Cloak respectively Battle Cloak. A free extra.
The Varanus is deemed subpar by many, but it ignores that its flaws were also replicated on the D'Kyr and the Nebula - giving Science Vessels a TRIBBLE turn rate. It took enermous amounts of complaints (back then, vastly lead by PvPers) to give them some improvements, and the Varanus was not left out there, either.
It also followed perfectly the ancient ship design guidelines Cryptic seemed to be working under back then, which hardly implies malice. And that is a dumb idea anyway. If cryptic releases TRIBBLE ships, it's become they don't realize they are TRIBBLE, because TRIBBLE ships sell poorly but cost exactly the same as good ships to make.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Maybe the reason why KDF doesn't sell well because there are simply less items in the store?
It matters what they make per ship they make, not what they make with the KDF as a whole. Making a ship is what costs the big money. Too many ships might actually risk making less money per ship, since not everyone is a collector - some people will simply be happy with the ship(s)s they got and will not be in the market for the next ship.
But going by the ship lineup Cryptic has released so far, it seems Cruisers always have a bigger market than escorts, which have a bigger market then Science Vessels or Carriers. And then there is obviously a bigger market for Fed then for KDF and ROM vessels.
For content, it's quite simple however - even if the 3 factions were represented perfectly balanced in the player population, making new story content for only one faction means not reaching 2/3rd of them. If the population is not balanced, the situation gets even worse. Faction agnostic content that is available to all factions is the most efficient way to go. The only reason a new faction with faction-specific content might seem like a good idea to them is because the faction itself might attract new players. Making TOS a faction is a kinda weird move speaking from a mere story perspective, but if you look at the fanbase, it might make sense. We'll see if that actually works out.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
one of my regrets; this ship is awful (wings too big, 2 big red candies, head too big). I would prefered a basic raptor on which all the nice skins of low tier raptors would have been useable: puyjaq , suqob skins
Take the seating off a Fleet Norgh, slap it on a B'rel, add the upgrade token, swap in a 'pilot' seat and give it a 'ship trait' that is absolutely useless to it.
Many ships get updates to Tier 6 similar to that. Look at the Operations Star Cruiser. A Fed ship. No one needs its trait, and the upgrade is pretty standard.
Seriously useless, of zero value on the ship it comes on. Whithering Barrage is great if you're in a Defiant, or a Malem-you've got shields and hull on a Defiant or a Malem, you can afford to hang around. On a BoP (ANY Bird of Prey) if you're lingering at low speed, you're asking to be blown up.
A Bird of Prey can also hang around long enough for a full Withering Barrage, if you know what you're doing.
And Withering Barrage would be great on pretty much every other cannon build, which most KDF ships support, too. So the ship has value even for people that don't want to fly a BoP.
Carriers...must be popular with Fed players. I say that, because in the skill revamp, they specifically included 'skills' that maximize carrier pets, and they built a very expensive Tier Six carrier for Federation Players only.
Carriers don't seem to be all that popular with feds, either.
The Federation has 2 Carriers in its entire line-up.
But in Tier 6 alone, we got two Cruiser triple packs and 1 Escort Triple Pack.
Maybe people like to have that hangar bay on their Cruiser, but real Carriers? They don't seem that popular, or Cryptic would be releasing more.
I think there is a reason why they rather put them in lockboxes, make them event ships or run special promo - They need to generate extra excitement for them.
Science Vessels probably do a bit better, but the ones they put in lockboxes or the lobi store lately seem deliberately designed to be overpowered Science Vessels by turning them into Dreadnaughts. (And thus for real Science Vessel fans, they are kinda disappointing. I own both an Annorax and a Paradox, and I dislike flying a low-turn rate Science Vessel. TRIBBLE the extra weapon slot, who needs that if you run 125 Aux anyway? But I am sure the Cruiser lovers that want to run their BFAW builds are happy.)
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
That 30% is further divided in half and it takes the same amount of time and money to design and build additions for each faction. The up front costs for development are very large and have to atleast make the money back.
They have plenty of crossfaction goodies to make money off the full 100% however.
There's no reason not to sell everything to the full 100%.
Why sell 1 ship for the 70%, 1 ship for the 15% and 1 ship for the other 15%, when you could sell all 3 to everyone?
I do tend to think that Cryptic might be able to make a few KDF ships relatively "cheap" in terms of modelling.
For example, if they created a Tier 6 Orion Science Vessel that just gives you access to all 3 models, add a new hull material, and buff the stats to be competitive with the Pathfinder (mostly the turn rate is needed), I think they could have a solid KDF Science Vessel. I think the models still hold up pretty well with current standards. But of course, that would still not really be a Klingon Science Vessel.
But I think if they go cheap and still demand the usual price, they will also get negative feedback. Releasing another Fed Cruiser is probably still the safer bet. Similar anger, but more sales.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I do tend to think that Cryptic might be able to make a few KDF ships relatively "cheap" in terms of modelling.
For example, if they created a Tier 6 Orion Science Vessel that just gives you access to all 3 models, add a new hull material, and buff the stats to be competitive with the Pathfinder (mostly the turn rate is needed), I think they could have a solid KDF Science Vessel. I think the models still hold up pretty well with current standards. But of course, that would still not really be a Klingon Science Vessel.
But I think if they go cheap and still demand the usual price, they will also get negative feedback. Releasing another Fed Cruiser is probably still the safer bet. Similar anger, but more sales.
I have a feeling many KDF fans would find adding "new" C-Store ships without actual new models an even bigger insult than not adding any ships at all.
I mean, people already complain the KDF ships are "reskins" of the Feds'. Can imagine the reaction if they stopped making even new skins for them.
I don't understand. The past year has seen the introduction of various 3-faction-packs for almost all new ships. All the mission content is written so that it works for all three existing factions.
What else can anyone want? Why would anyone complain after a year of getting more stuff to buy than ever?
Always the same tune. If you haven't understood the first six years of posts that went over your head then you won't understand the next six years either.
Jack Emmert: "Starfleet and Klingon. ... So two factions, full PvE content." Al Rivera hates Klingons Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert All cloaks should be canon.
Comments
Asking for the same level of attention as another group five times your size is asking for preferential treatment.
The self-entitled vocal minority is so ridiculous with their forum blame-shaming on Cryptic.
Yes. And that's why they should stop making more factions and instead work on merging the existing ones into one. STO clearly can't sustain a balanced multifaction economy and its counterproductive to maintain "second class" factions when the storyline doesn't demand it.
The whole "utterly neglecting" thing... It's one of these typical forum exaggeration argumentation techniques that means exactly nothing.
Cryptic has never "uttlery neglected" any faction. What do you think all those Romulan and Klingon Tier 6 ships in those cross-factions were? Or what the custom improvements/fixes for Klingons have been that were released lately?
There is one thing in this game that deserves the title of being "utter neglect by Cryptic", I think. And that's PvP. That is something that hasn't seen support, additions or improvements in years.
If you call the additions and fixes Cryptic made for the Klingon and Romulan faction as utter neglect, you should not be surprised if Cryptic eventually really gives up and certainly has absolutely no desire to engage with anyone of you. You have already proven yourself to be extremely unreasonable and not worth talking to. Their enthusiasm in supporting you would be automatically removed the moment they get exposed to anything what you say. The only think that keeps giving you a chance since there is at least still some income to be generated by you.
And hey, Cryptic, I think you're really cool and all, but could you please fix Material 5 on my Neg'Tev, enable the B'Rolth skin on my Kor, and enable Material 5 on the T6 Bortas? Thanks. Also, a Tier 6 Hegh'ta, Vor'Cha or Dyson (Rom and KDF) would be nice.
My character Tsin'xing
may it rot for all eternity in its grave
We're not talking about fixes and exactly what additions have they made hmm? I've yet to see any new Klink/Rom missions. I've also not seen them drop any new ships unless they were reskins of what they made for the feds.
And I am fairly certain they have never "lost" money on any ship they've tossed out for sale. But unless we get a really detailed look at their books neither of us can support an argument either way
No, you are still using circular logic, and you are choosing to ignore the fact that Cryptic have been systematically favouring the Federation from the start - the KDF stuff didn't sell because they were exercises in mediocrity to justify not having to develop for them.
You accuse me of looking at it from the wrong perspective, when it is you who is choosing to ignore the bias that was in the developers from the start.
Now, I don't have to restate it, @patrickngo already put together a decent, if short, summary of it.
KDF sci ships at T5 and T6:
Varanus+fleet
Dysons
Korath
Terrible or broken rehashes of Fed-side table scraps. Proven it doesn't sell? They haven't even proved they have tried to sell a Klingon Sci ship, because the first is a worse version of a freebie Fed ship - and it was one of the worst Fed-ships at that - the Dysons were all terrible.
Feds:
Deep Space Science Vessel+fleet, and Mirror Deep Space Science Vessel
Reconnaissance Science Vessel+Fleet, and Mirror Reconnaissance Science Vessel
Science Vessel retrofit+Fleet, and Mirror Science Vessel retrofit
Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit+Fleet
D'Kyr
Multi-Mission Explorers
T5 and T6 Intrepids
Dauntless
Scryer
Not even half.
Carriers? A former KDF exclusive? Well, the Karfi is invisible because they broke it, and it has been broke for months now. And while the KDF had to put up with broken AI for hanger pets for years, when the Feds got carriers the problems were -largely- fixed.
And the only T6 full Carrier is for Feds.
C-Store ship consoles? Anything good was looted for cross-factioning.
When STO started, you had to level up a Fed in order to unlock KDF, then you pretty much had to PvP in order to level because it took until they added the Romulans to complete the levelling content.
Battlecruisers? The Mogh was delayed for months so that the Avenger could be released, and when it was, it was made to be the better ship.
Delta Rising T6s - Feds? 2 Cruisers, 2 Sci ships, an escort - Romulans 2 ships, KDF 2 ships.
Temporal Agent pack as it stands: Feds 4, Rom/KDF 2 Fed ships made cross faction.
And they aren't bothering with the cross-faction bit - are there differences between these three?*
At least they bothered to reskin for the Korath, Krenn, R'Mor and Talvath...
Your entire position assumes that the KDF and Feds were given equal development and equipment, and it was only after that that KDF went undeveloped, and that is not the case - they made stuff for KDF below the Fed standard in order to say KDF stuff doesn't sell.
Why? Because the devs only like Feds. They have shown that from the start. When you have the
And to turn your own point around - why not actually do a proper job of equal treatment and grow the almost masochistically loyal to stick around this long KDF and Rom players, and make money from all 3 factions? Because it can be done, they just choose not to do it.
That is the real reason.
----
* Credit to @starswordc post here for images. http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline#/discussion/1214974/agents-of-yesterday-announcement/p12
Undoubtedly they did intend to make money from the factions and that's why they created them. But turns out most players want to play Fed so the other factions don't have enough sales. IMO it was a mistake to make the factions. It would've been more profitable to keep the single (Fed) faction and just sell KDF/Rom ships, not dividing their customer base. The KDF/Rom fans would've bought them anyway and maybe some Fed-only players would have too, if they weren't forbidden.
The Devs did add "Visual Slots" to the ships, just before they started releasing these "faction-agnostic" ships.
What if they mean to eventually give us a "KDF Temporal Visuals" and "RR Temporal Visuals" and "FED Temporal Visuals" packages for these "faction-agnostic" ships?
They can now make one ship with the settings needed....sell it to everyone. Then just make these visual packages if we want changes?
Doesn't this make more sense than making artwork and building 3 different ships. It gives them flexibility as they add factions in the future, also. And flexibility to sell different themes on these visual packages.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
My character Tsin'xing
I think you're close to the mark... visual slots can open the door to a lot of costumes and z-store package options, not just temporal
Otherwise... meh. Another alt to see what they got, then back to stomping around in my Fleet Vo'Quv.
I used "Temporal" as an example...because that was what we were looking at.
You are right, they could create any theme...for any faction. And in combination with faction-agnostic ships that anyone could buy and use, that should take the pressure off the cooker.
Character creation is flexible and so many races, already, plus alien generator...there needs to be some sort of flexibility with ships and ship visuals that is viable no matter what race or faction you make the captain.
I am sure they will still make faction specific ships because I can't see Romulans not getting their T-6 Scimitar, eventually, and I won't give up flying my BoP...etc...etc... And what ever new factions that are incoming....they have their own signature ships, too.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
My character Tsin'xing
Say you have 50 Fed Players and 50 KDF. Each of them has enough zen to buy one ship in the store.
The Fed players each have 10 options to choose from to find something that fits their play style. This means that on average there will be 5 purchases of each ship. Individual ships may be more or less.
But the KDF only have 5 options. Thus each of the ships gets bought 10 times.
But that's not what actually happens. In practice there's something like 5 Feds for every KDF or more. So instead of 50 and 50 it's 50 and 10 or less. By extension this means that while the fed ships get 5 sales each, the KDF would only get TWO.
My character Tsin'xing
Legacy things from the original game they took over.
Of course people will want to play Feds; it is what the IP is about. But to only be able to make money off of 70% of your players means you are doing something wrong with the 30%.
They have plenty of crossfaction goodies to make money off the full 100% however.
My character Tsin'xing
We had captains from both these factions up until recently going back and forth in time to confront the Na’Khul and now that we are to go back to the TOS era the two factions don’t seem to have a role in it.
I would have liked to seen something where three captains from the three factions had to go back in time and join their respective factions and at the same time work a problem that requires the input from all three captains.
As a player that just means if you have three different faction captains, then you get to see much more of the story and the Star Trek universe of that era. That to me is what an expansion should be about.
Were they working on this for over a year? Because from what I understand the excuse is there was not enough time to develop a storyline or the ships, missions bases etc etc for all three factions. I get the feeling part of the problem was due to something the playerbase has been clamoring about since Legacy of Romulans in that a lot of players did not like (including me) a faction aligned Romulan story.
Now we have an expansion that in no way could support the faction aligned dynamic as the Romulans were enemies to both the Federation and the Klingons. In fact all three factions were enemies.
I do think I will enjoy this new expansion for my Fed captains but I can’t help but feel a bit left out on behalf of my Klingon and Romulan captains.
Just this one meant an entirely new set of leveling missions, new sector space, characters and voice actors, all models and most locations... etc. I mean you really have no idea what all went into this, none of us do.
Sometimes they even win considerably in the Tier 6 retrofits. The Kolasi grew a hangar bay in its Tier 6 transition, the Bortasque became more maneuverable.
And I argue even if they were total copy & pastes with no mechanical differences - that#s probably still preferable to something like the Federation getting a ship with a trait like Reprocity and the Klingons getting Overwhelming Force. In short, it ensures that all factions also have access to similar abilities and no one gets to have an uber advantages.
But t he mechanical differences are meaningless anyway. The real work goes into the ship designs, and no matter what you do, a Valiant and a Kor look completely different, and fit their respetive factions.
The real disappointment for me was that they didn't make the Jupiter part of a cross-faction pack. It makes me wonder if Carriers are actually not all that popular in STO - compare it to the glut of Cruisers we have in game.
The Dyson Science Vessels were however the first science vessels ever with secondary deflectors and it took what - over a year until that was finally applied to all other science vessels. And the bugs it had were not faction-specific. All factions suffered from that. But at least the Klingon and Romulan variants of the Dyson had Cloak respectively Battle Cloak. A free extra.
The Varanus is deemed subpar by many, but it ignores that its flaws were also replicated on the D'Kyr and the Nebula - giving Science Vessels a TRIBBLE turn rate. It took enermous amounts of complaints (back then, vastly lead by PvPers) to give them some improvements, and the Varanus was not left out there, either.
It also followed perfectly the ancient ship design guidelines Cryptic seemed to be working under back then, which hardly implies malice. And that is a dumb idea anyway. If cryptic releases TRIBBLE ships, it's become they don't realize they are TRIBBLE, because TRIBBLE ships sell poorly but cost exactly the same as good ships to make.
But going by the ship lineup Cryptic has released so far, it seems Cruisers always have a bigger market than escorts, which have a bigger market then Science Vessels or Carriers. And then there is obviously a bigger market for Fed then for KDF and ROM vessels.
For content, it's quite simple however - even if the 3 factions were represented perfectly balanced in the player population, making new story content for only one faction means not reaching 2/3rd of them. If the population is not balanced, the situation gets even worse. Faction agnostic content that is available to all factions is the most efficient way to go. The only reason a new faction with faction-specific content might seem like a good idea to them is because the faction itself might attract new players. Making TOS a faction is a kinda weird move speaking from a mere story perspective, but if you look at the fanbase, it might make sense. We'll see if that actually works out.
one of my regrets; this ship is awful (wings too big, 2 big red candies, head too big). I would prefered a basic raptor on which all the nice skins of low tier raptors would have been useable: puyjaq , suqob skins
A Bird of Prey can also hang around long enough for a full Withering Barrage, if you know what you're doing.
And Withering Barrage would be great on pretty much every other cannon build, which most KDF ships support, too. So the ship has value even for people that don't want to fly a BoP.
Carriers don't seem to be all that popular with feds, either.
The Federation has 2 Carriers in its entire line-up.
But in Tier 6 alone, we got two Cruiser triple packs and 1 Escort Triple Pack.
Maybe people like to have that hangar bay on their Cruiser, but real Carriers? They don't seem that popular, or Cryptic would be releasing more.
I think there is a reason why they rather put them in lockboxes, make them event ships or run special promo - They need to generate extra excitement for them.
Science Vessels probably do a bit better, but the ones they put in lockboxes or the lobi store lately seem deliberately designed to be overpowered Science Vessels by turning them into Dreadnaughts. (And thus for real Science Vessel fans, they are kinda disappointing. I own both an Annorax and a Paradox, and I dislike flying a low-turn rate Science Vessel. TRIBBLE the extra weapon slot, who needs that if you run 125 Aux anyway? But I am sure the Cruiser lovers that want to run their BFAW builds are happy.)
Why sell 1 ship for the 70%, 1 ship for the 15% and 1 ship for the other 15%, when you could sell all 3 to everyone?
For example, if they created a Tier 6 Orion Science Vessel that just gives you access to all 3 models, add a new hull material, and buff the stats to be competitive with the Pathfinder (mostly the turn rate is needed), I think they could have a solid KDF Science Vessel. I think the models still hold up pretty well with current standards. But of course, that would still not really be a Klingon Science Vessel.
But I think if they go cheap and still demand the usual price, they will also get negative feedback. Releasing another Fed Cruiser is probably still the safer bet. Similar anger, but more sales.
I mean, people already complain the KDF ships are "reskins" of the Feds'. Can imagine the reaction if they stopped making even new skins for them.
Always the same tune. If you haven't understood the first six years of posts that went over your head then you won't understand the next six years either.
Al Rivera hates Klingons
Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert
All cloaks should be canon.