Like I said, swap Hangar Health with Threat Control. Tac 5 will be Hangar Damage/Threat Control while for Eng it will be Batteries/Hangar Health.
I think that brings better balance for both meta and niche builds nicely. Unlike yours which will alienate +/- Threat builds and carriers.
That still does not bring balance as it still forces tactical players who do not fly carriers to use something that is completely irrelevant to their builds.
Please provide a better solution.
Ummm, what? What are Tactical Captains being forced into, exactly? As I and many, many others have stated in this thread so far, Battery Expertise and Threat Control are universally useful for ALL builds, regardless of whether they're Healers, Tanks, or DPSers. Neither of those are irrelevant, and are far from useless to "tactical players who do not fly carriers".
Putting those two skills and hangar pet skills too high up in the skill tree and/or forcing players to choose between them and other very desirable skills is much more limiting to players. A person looking to make a Tanking build is not going to spec heavily into Tactical, and is more likely than not going to put most of their skill points into Engineering and Science. Most Carriers are Science-focused, and as a result someone who specializes in Carriers will spec the bulk of their points into Science and Engineering. By putting those skills too far up in the skill tree they become useless to the builds that would have benefitted the most from them, essentially making them weaker options.
And like I and others have said before, Battery Expertise is beneficial to everyone, and so putting it too high up in a skill tree would just put it out of reach for most builds. In all honesty Threat Control, Battery Expertise, Sector Space Travel Speed, Transwarp Recharge, Hangar Pet Health, and Hangar Pet Damage should all be on the first level of those unlocks. I fully agree with @e30ernest, just switch Hangar Health with Threat Control and all parties will be satisfied.
I still don't get how you think Battery Expertise and Threat Control are irrelevant to "non-carrier flying Tactical players" though...
I think there has been something lost in translation here, because i can see that there are some confused with my postings. So, I will try to clear up any confusion over my proposed changes.
Below is the current system on the tribble server.
• ENG 5 = Threat Control / Battery Expertise
• ENG 10 = Max Hull Capacity / Subsystem Repair
• ENG 15 = Engine Power / Shield Power
• ENG 20 = Aux Power / Weapon Power
• SCI 5 = Transwarp Recharge / Sector Space Travel
• SCI 10 = Max Shield Capacity / Stealth
• SCI 15 = Control Resistance / Perception
• SCI 20 = Energy Drain Resist / Shield Drain Resist
• TAC 5 = Hangar Health / Hangar Damage
• TAC 10 = Projectile Crit H / Projectile Crit D
• TAC 15 = Energy Crit H / Energy Crit D
• TAC 20 = Accuracy / Defense
Below is my proposed chart.
ENG 5 = Battery Expertise / Subsystem Repair
ENG 10 = Max Hull Capacity / Hangar Health
ENG 15 = Engine Power / Shield Power
ENG 20 = Aux Power / Weapon Power
SCI 5 = Transwarp Recharge / Sector Space Travel
SCI 10 = Max Shield Capacity / Control Resistance
SCI 15 = Stealth / Perception
SCI 20 = Energy Drain Resist / Shield Drain Resist
TAC 5 = Threat Control / Hangar Damage
TAC 10 = Projectile Crit H / Projectile Crit D
TAC 15 = Energy Crit H / Energy Crit D
TAC 20 = Accuracy / Defense
As it is right now, in the first chart, the unlocks is clearly ineffective for tactical players who do not fly carriers because "TAC 5 = Hangar Health / Hangar Damage" will not serve any purpose for them.
The second chart i have proposed will correct this error.
This might be a bit off topic, but could we get a list of the skills that are effected by Inspirational Leader? Trait description and tooltips read "Most Starship Skills," and I suspect that means all Starship Skills that actually have levels associated with them (as opposed to things like Shunt, Drain Infection, Control Amplification, etc.), but I'm not sure?
Like I said, swap Hangar Health with Threat Control. Tac 5 will be Hangar Damage/Threat Control while for Eng it will be Batteries/Hangar Health.
I think that brings better balance for both meta and niche builds nicely. Unlike yours which will alienate +/- Threat builds and carriers.
That still does not bring balance as it still forces tactical players who do not fly carriers to use something that is completely irrelevant to their builds.
Please provide a better solution.
Ummm, what? What are Tactical Captains being forced into, exactly? As I and many, many others have stated in this thread so far, Battery Expertise and Threat Control are universally useful for ALL builds, regardless of whether they're Healers, Tanks, or DPSers. Neither of those are irrelevant, and are far from useless to "tactical players who do not fly carriers".
Putting those two skills and hangar pet skills too high up in the skill tree and/or forcing players to choose between them and other very desirable skills is much more limiting to players. A person looking to make a Tanking build is not going to spec heavily into Tactical, and is more likely than not going to put most of their skill points into Engineering and Science. Most Carriers are Science-focused, and as a result someone who specializes in Carriers will spec the bulk of their points into Science and Engineering. By putting those skills too far up in the skill tree they become useless to the builds that would have benefitted the most from them, essentially making them weaker options.
And like I and others have said before, Battery Expertise is beneficial to everyone, and so putting it too high up in a skill tree would just put it out of reach for most builds. In all honesty Threat Control, Battery Expertise, Sector Space Travel Speed, Transwarp Recharge, Hangar Pet Health, and Hangar Pet Damage should all be on the first level of those unlocks. I fully agree with @e30ernest, just switch Hangar Health with Threat Control and all parties will be satisfied.
I still don't get how you think Battery Expertise and Threat Control are irrelevant to "non-carrier flying Tactical players" though...
I think there has been something lost in translation here, because i can see that there are some confused with my postings. So, I will try to clear up any confusion over my proposed changes.
Below is the current system on the tribble server.
• ENG 5 = Threat Control / Battery Expertise
• ENG 10 = Max Hull Capacity / Subsystem Repair
• ENG 15 = Engine Power / Shield Power
• ENG 20 = Aux Power / Weapon Power
• SCI 5 = Transwarp Recharge / Sector Space Travel
• SCI 10 = Max Shield Capacity / Stealth
• SCI 15 = Control Resistance / Perception
• SCI 20 = Energy Drain Resist / Shield Drain Resist
• TAC 5 = Hangar Health / Hangar Damage
• TAC 10 = Projectile Crit H / Projectile Crit D
• TAC 15 = Energy Crit H / Energy Crit D
• TAC 20 = Accuracy / Defense
Below is my proposed chart.
ENG 5 = Battery Expertise / Subsystem Repair
ENG 10 = Max Hull Capacity / Hangar Health
ENG 15 = Engine Power / Shield Power
ENG 20 = Aux Power / Weapon Power
SCI 5 = Transwarp Recharge / Sector Space Travel
SCI 10 = Max Shield Capacity / Control Resistance
SCI 15 = Stealth / Perception
SCI 20 = Energy Drain Resist / Shield Drain Resist
TAC 5 = Threat Control / Hangar Damage
TAC 10 = Projectile Crit H / Projectile Crit D
TAC 15 = Energy Crit H / Energy Crit D
TAC 20 = Accuracy / Defense
As it is right now, in the first chart, the unlocks is clearly ineffective for tactical players who do not fly carriers because "TAC 5 = Hangar Health / Hangar Damage" will not serve any purpose for them.
The second chart i have proposed will correct this error.
The chart that others are proposing is:
• ENG 5 = Hangar Health/ Battery Expertise
• ENG 10 = Max Hull Capacity / Subsystem Repair
• ENG 15 = Engine Power / Shield Power
• ENG 20 = Aux Power / Weapon Power
• SCI 5 = Transwarp Recharge / Sector Space Travel
• SCI 10 = Max Shield Capacity / Stealth
• SCI 15 = Control Resistance / Perception
• SCI 20 = Energy Drain Resist / Shield Drain Resist
• TAC 5 = Threat Control/ Hangar Damage
• TAC 10 = Projectile Crit H / Projectile Crit D
• TAC 15 = Energy Crit H / Energy Crit D
• TAC 20 = Accuracy / Defense
It keeps things that are part of the current Holodeck skill system available without mutual exclusion, gives the carrier players early access to Hangar bonuses without having to climb too high up the non-Science trees, since most carriers are Science-leaning, gives those who don't fly a ship with a hangar something they can use in every unlock path at 5 points, and removes the "Sophie's Choice" of Threat Control or Battery Expertise in the current build.
This is an MMO, not a Star Trek episode simulator. That would make for a terrible game.
Like I said, swap Hangar Health with Threat Control. Tac 5 will be Hangar Damage/Threat Control while for Eng it will be Batteries/Hangar Health.
I think that brings better balance for both meta and niche builds nicely. Unlike yours which will alienate +/- Threat builds and carriers.
That still does not bring balance as it still forces tactical players who do not fly carriers to use something that is completely irrelevant to their builds.
Please provide a better solution.
Ummm, what? What are Tactical Captains being forced into, exactly? As I and many, many others have stated in this thread so far, Battery Expertise and Threat Control are universally useful for ALL builds, regardless of whether they're Healers, Tanks, or DPSers. Neither of those are irrelevant, and are far from useless to "tactical players who do not fly carriers".
Putting those two skills and hangar pet skills too high up in the skill tree and/or forcing players to choose between them and other very desirable skills is much more limiting to players. A person looking to make a Tanking build is not going to spec heavily into Tactical, and is more likely than not going to put most of their skill points into Engineering and Science. Most Carriers are Science-focused, and as a result someone who specializes in Carriers will spec the bulk of their points into Science and Engineering. By putting those skills too far up in the skill tree they become useless to the builds that would have benefitted the most from them, essentially making them weaker options.
And like I and others have said before, Battery Expertise is beneficial to everyone, and so putting it too high up in a skill tree would just put it out of reach for most builds. In all honesty Threat Control, Battery Expertise, Sector Space Travel Speed, Transwarp Recharge, Hangar Pet Health, and Hangar Pet Damage should all be on the first level of those unlocks. I fully agree with @e30ernest, just switch Hangar Health with Threat Control and all parties will be satisfied.
I still don't get how you think Battery Expertise and Threat Control are irrelevant to "non-carrier flying Tactical players" though...
I think there has been something lost in translation here, because i can see that there are some confused with my postings. So, I will try to clear up any confusion over my proposed changes.
Below is the current system on the tribble server.
• ENG 5 = Threat Control / Battery Expertise
• ENG 10 = Max Hull Capacity / Subsystem Repair
• ENG 15 = Engine Power / Shield Power
• ENG 20 = Aux Power / Weapon Power
• SCI 5 = Transwarp Recharge / Sector Space Travel
• SCI 10 = Max Shield Capacity / Stealth
• SCI 15 = Control Resistance / Perception
• SCI 20 = Energy Drain Resist / Shield Drain Resist
• TAC 5 = Hangar Health / Hangar Damage
• TAC 10 = Projectile Crit H / Projectile Crit D
• TAC 15 = Energy Crit H / Energy Crit D
• TAC 20 = Accuracy / Defense
Below is my proposed chart.
ENG 5 = Battery Expertise / Subsystem Repair
ENG 10 = Max Hull Capacity / Hangar Health
ENG 15 = Engine Power / Shield Power
ENG 20 = Aux Power / Weapon Power
SCI 5 = Transwarp Recharge / Sector Space Travel
SCI 10 = Max Shield Capacity / Control Resistance
SCI 15 = Stealth / Perception
SCI 20 = Energy Drain Resist / Shield Drain Resist
TAC 5 = Threat Control / Hangar Damage
TAC 10 = Projectile Crit H / Projectile Crit D
TAC 15 = Energy Crit H / Energy Crit D
TAC 20 = Accuracy / Defense
As it is right now, in the first chart, the unlocks is clearly ineffective for tactical players who do not fly carriers because "TAC 5 = Hangar Health / Hangar Damage" will not serve any purpose for them.
The second chart i have proposed will correct this error.
The chart that others are proposing is:
• ENG 5 = Hangar Health/ Battery Expertise
• ENG 10 = Max Hull Capacity / Subsystem Repair
• ENG 15 = Engine Power / Shield Power
• ENG 20 = Aux Power / Weapon Power
• SCI 5 = Transwarp Recharge / Sector Space Travel
• SCI 10 = Max Shield Capacity / Stealth
• SCI 15 = Control Resistance / Perception
• SCI 20 = Energy Drain Resist / Shield Drain Resist
• TAC 5 = Threat Control/ Hangar Damage
• TAC 10 = Projectile Crit H / Projectile Crit D
• TAC 15 = Energy Crit H / Energy Crit D
• TAC 20 = Accuracy / Defense
It keeps things that are part of the current Holodeck skill system available without mutual exclusion, gives the carrier players early access to Hangar bonuses without having to climb too high up the non-Science trees, since most carriers are Science-leaning, gives those who don't fly a ship with a hangar something they can use in every unlock path at 5 points, and removes the "Sophie's Choice" of Threat Control or Battery Expertise in the current build.
Thank you for clarifying, I will compromise and agree with this.
Hangar bonuses now apply to all summoned pets and also apply a lesser bonus to team mates so they are far from useless. That was a good choice dev's thanks!
I like the swap threat and hangar health it seems like a good compromise IMO. In fact I think that's the perfect unlock layout for everyone involved, it would completely satisfy every build type I can think of.
By the way, just wanted to thank the dev's for putting up with us I know we can be frustrating. We make stupid suggestions like with the unlock paths and instead of delivering a righteous TRIBBLE slap of reality you make the changes that were asked for so we can figure our ourselves how stupid we were. In the end things ended up pretty much how you put them in the first place. LOL
Shield Hardness decreases the damage your shields take by increasing your shield resistance. It has no effect on the amount of damage hull takes directly, though it may influence it by keeping your shields up longer, and it does not affect the bleedthrough percentage.
Shield penetration increases the amount of bleedthrough your weapons have. It has no direct interaction with resistances.
I don't know why I am having such a hard time with the concept of "damage resistance".
Why does shield hardness NOT effect the bleed through to hull?
Isn't the amount of damage going to hull related to how much damage gets through to the shields in the first place?
So, what does it mean when Borticus said:
"Armor Pen is just a negative damage resistance. Invest in more Damage Resistance in order to defend against penetration.
Shield Pen is just a negative shield hardness. Invest in more Shield Hardness in order to defend against penetration."
So, what Borticus said about Shield Penetration is wrong, then. ???
Because if Shield Penetration only increases the "bleed through" damage to hull and does not interact with shield damage resistance....there is no way that Shield Hardness (resistance) could counter Shield Penetration (bleed through).
What happens in Armor Penetration? Because there is no "bleed through" on hull...so what the heck is penetration doing, there?
I am thoroughly confused.
I see there is 2 damage resistances now on our ships: SHIELD damage resistance and HULL damage resistance. IN the skill tree shield damage resistance is called "Shield Hardness"; and hull damage resistance is called "Hull Plating".
And Shield resistance and Hull damage does not interact with each other??? I don't know why?
And somewhere in there ALL of it is effected by 75% "reduction" on damage resistance?? Somehow?
Is there another thread about all this damage resistance stuff somewhere that explains this better?
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
100 plasma damage comes at your face (er, your ship). Assuming a Standard Shield (say, one with 10% Bleedthrough, 90% absorption), your hull takes 10, your shields take 90.
The 10 to your hull does not care - at all - what goes on with your shields. It *does* care about what your damage resistance modifier is (your hull resistance, i.e., whatever your current % Plasma resist is), and that will determine what % of the 10 will be deducted from your hull HP (if you're buffed, that could be significantly less than 10; if you're debuffed, it could be more than 10!).
The 90 to your shields does not care - at all - what is going on with the 10 that went to your hull. It does not care about your damage resistance modifier. It *does* care about your shield hardness, which is basically damage resistance for shields, and will determine what % of the 90 will be deducted from your shields HP.
If your attacker has more shield penetration, that just means more than the initial 10% of damage will be distributed to your hull instead of your shields - instead of a 10/90 split, maybe you're hit with a 30/70 split. The 30 will then get run through the (hull) damage resistance sausage-maker to determine what % of 30 is actually deducted from your hull HP, the 70 will get run through the shield hardness sausage-maker to determine what % of 70 is actually deducted from your shield HP.
If you improve the RESILIENCY/ABSORPTION of your shields (say you have a resilient shield array, which changes the distribution to 5% hull bleedthrough, 95% shield absorption), then 5% of damage ignore shields, applies directly to your hull, with your (hull) damage resistance multiplier determining what % of 5 you take in actual damage, while the other 95 goes to shields (although Resilient Shields have an extra step which "negates" some of that 95 before it runs through the hardness formula).
TL; DR:
Shields absorb a percentage of damage. Actual damage shields take is a % of that damage based on your hardness (can be +/- 100% depending on shield hardness buffs and shield hardness debuffs).
Hull takes the percentage of damage that doesn't get absorbed by shields. Actual damage hull takes is a % of that damage based on your damage resistance multiplier (itself the concert of your damage resistance rating, your damage resistance bonus rating, and any armor penetration/damage resistance rating reduction debuffs "up" when damage is applied; can similarly be +/- 100%).
Shield penetration means a lower percentage of initial damage is absorbed by shields and instead goes to hull (changes the normal 10/90 or 5/95 distribution in favor of more hull). Increased shield resilience or absorption means a higher percentage of initial damage is absorbed by shields and a lower percentage goes to hull.
So, what Borticus said about Shield Penetration is wrong, then. ???
Yes, I was wrong. Was speaking off-the-cuff and didn't think it all the way through. The descriptions given by Spartan are more accurate to the actual mechanics.
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
Question: Do the passive hanger health/damage powers and Hanger skills boost all pet summons? For example Fleet Support, Delta reinforcements, Nimbus Pirates and any others I missed.
Thank you for clarifying, I will compromise and agree with this.
We have consensus! Swapping Hanger Health to ENG 5 and Threat Control to TAC 5 brings about a golden age of universal joy and prosperity. Or at least, interest in some builds focused on things other than raw weapon DPS.
Now we just need to convince the one and only person in the room who actually gets to vote ...
Bribes eh. Obviously anything ingame wouldn't be of value, the digital format means that the most efficient means of such would be information, but there's really only one piece of information I could really offer that might be relevant and it would only work as blackmail material against a specific dev
Here is an alternative to the present skill tree.
TAC 20 = Threat Control / Hangar Damage
There's a reason why they moved Hangars and Threat control early up in the skill tree:
Carriers (which arguably gets the most from the hangar nodes) do not generally spec that high into Tac.
Tanking builds (which arguable get the most from Threat Control) do not generally spec that high into Tac.
So overall, those changes you propose will break a fair amount of builds. In fact, they changed it to something similar to what you listed a few patches back, and it didn't work out well, so they reverted Threat and Hangar skills back earlier into the tree with the most recent patch.
I am with @rakhona, @iusasset, and @mandoknight89 here that Threat/Batteries is too much of a choice for tank builds. I do like @nikeix's suggestion to swap Threat Control with Hangar Health though.
No matter how we cut it, these proposed changes is going to break many builds here, and not the just tank and carrier builds, I am speaking about all ship builds.
Edit:
We've got to compromise somewhere, so why don't we discuss it?
I believe where we are now is the compromise. The next compromise is to split Threat and Batteries to different choices.
I respectfully disagree with you. There is no balance for non-carrier tactical builds, as it is right now on tribble, I have no use for "TAC 5 = Hangar Health / Hangar Damage" as I do not use carriers. All this does is just leaves an option that i can never use.
You don't seem to realise that the Threat Control pick also enhances NOT having it toggled on, and is therefore of great use to ANY Tac Captain.
You don't seem to realise that the Threat Control pick also enhances NOT having it toggled on, and is therefore of great use to ANY Tac Captain.
This is why I think pairing it with Hull Capacity (and to a lesser extent, Batteries) is such a good choice. Sometimes I want threat, but not extra threat. Having the option to not take Threat Control, not have my threat reduced, and get something more useful to that build like extra HP is a great choice.
Someone made a good point about a Threat Control/Pet HP option being nice because pets shouldn't need HP if you're tanking...except when you consider all the AOE that wrecks them in this game, and the fact that Threat Control is going to indirectly put more aggro on your pets if you're not running Threatening Stance.
So just to be clear, if someone can stack 100% shield penetration in a pvp setting, hardness does not change that at all? It seems that will become the new normal, and sci ships which rely on shields to protect them will be left in the dust vs pilot escorts with multiple immunities, and cruisers with enough hull and resistances able to absorb damage directly to hull?
Sure, but let's not kid ourselves - while it's theoretically possible to get to 100% shield penetration (I know it's been done in a PvE setting by a captain using torpedoes, but I think it required use of either low-DPV transphasics or the new Krenim Chroniton), it's prohibitively difficult enough there's no way it will become "the new normal" absent shield penetrating bonus sources that don't already exist in the game.
It's almost always easier just attempting to disable the shields outright, or tolerating a lower percentage of shield-penetrating damage.
I will also note that TempHP works as a soft counter, since all damage to hull is absorbed by TempHP before damage is deducted from your HullHP.
Bribes eh. Obviously anything ingame wouldn't be of value, the digital format means that the most efficient means of such would be information, but there's really only one piece of information I could really offer that might be relevant and it would only work as blackmail material against a specific dev
I think you are unclear on what the term bribe means....
Backmail can be fun and profitable tho....
I'm not saying 'I can blackmail you', I'm saying 'I can bribe you by giving you a piece of blackmail over someone else'. Although I really don't know how much use as blackmail it would be- it's public knowledge, you can find it on google. It's just that particular dev probably does the frowny face whenever that information comes up because quite frankly it's more than a little embarrassing, albeit in a humorous way.
Thank you for clarifying, I will compromise and agree with this.
We have consensus! Swapping Hanger Health to ENG 5 and Threat Control to TAC 5 brings about a golden age of universal joy and prosperity. Or at least, interest in some builds focused on things other than raw weapon DPS.
Now we just need to convince the one and only person in the room who actually gets to vote ...
Now that we have come to an agreement, our next task is to convince the developers!
About shield pen becoming the new normal, it seems pretty easy to get close to 100% shield penetration. Self modulating fire is 50% penetration on crit for 10 s. Beam overload doffs add 35% shield penetration for a brief period. I'm betting Intel team would cover the rest. And that is now counting the new skill on Tribble, or one of the other space traits that adds 5% shield pen to torps. So all it takes is a well timed torpedo spread and it's like you don't even have shields. Not a huge problem in a cruiser because of the extra resist and hull. Not a huge problem in a pilot escort because of the ridiculous uptime of the immunities, but a big problem in a science ship which relies mostly on shields to protect it. I understand this is mainly a pvp issue, and I know that is not a huge priority right now, and that's ok. Lot of stuff to fix. But as long as it is part of the game, I feel compelled to mention it, and I would love to see the new shield hardness skill resist the shield pen that is going on in pvp.
So just to be clear, if someone can stack 100% shield penetration in a pvp setting, hardness does not change that at all? It seems that will become the new normal, and sci ships which rely on shields to protect them will be left in the dust vs pilot escorts with multiple immunities, and cruisers with enough hull and resistances able to absorb damage directly to hull?
Unless I missed something for energy weapons, I believe the max shieldPen that can be attained is 60% for 10sec. after a crit.
EDIT: I did miss the BO DOffs. 30% chance to proc for 35% shieldPen (Max 3 VR DOffs). Still RNG-based and requires BO.
For Kinetic Capt's using torps (but NOT Transphasics), you have the following scenario:
Intense Focus: 1.5% shieldPen per 15sec (max 4 stacks at 6% shieldPen after being in combat for 1min.)
Kinetic Precision: +10% (always on)
Self-Modulating Fire: 50% for 10 sec on outgoing crit (45 sec icd/lockout)
Weapon System Synergy: 50% for 10 sec AFTER obtaining ELEVEN stacks (either bug is back, or latency, or both) with a 20 second icd/lockout before stacks can be obtained. Stacks are built per firing cycle for each energy weapon (why not per shot like Plasma Explosions?). This still doesn't work w/ 'heavy' torpedoes, FYI. This works better/faster when you have more energy weapons firing in a fast cycle.
On an opening salvo in PvE I typically have a ~4sec window where I have 100% shieldPen, and then the stars have to align if there are breaks in combat (like in PvP). Compare this to a ship that has 4x Embassy consoles and has 8 arrays + FaW, where the Plasma Explosions are hitting for HY1 damage or more... directly to hull.
Now, if a Torp Capt uses Transphasics, yes, they'll have more shieldPen options available, but any 1/2 way decent PvPer will have kinetic resists on the ready. Transphasics already hit for so little, that whatever finally makes it to hull is a pittance compared to the shield bleedthrough damage from a non-Transphasic torp. Even worse is the complete negation of torp damage using one of the resist batteries. Reference AstroZombie's YouTube channel for some of his fights where he shrugs off my hits w/ 100% shieldPen like it was nothing.
So, to your point, there are concerns about the plethora of shield ignoring attacks, to which I say, "Then the entire combat mechanic needs to be revisited at a fundamental level and build anew from there." As it is right now, powerCreep is the name of the game, and the arms race is skewed, so take what you can where you can until the opportunity to rebuild everything from the ground up presents itself. Unfortunately, it's too soon for 11.5, so....
I guess I'm just talking burst damage here. Wasn't even aware of all the other shield penetrating traits. I have been 1 hit killed with 65% kinetic resist by torp spreads that go right through shields. This happened multiple times until I asked the other guy what the hell was going on. Beam overload always crits, procs self modulating fire and with 3 doffs, chances are good that you get the extra 35% shield pen. So everytime this particular person shot a spread at me, it went right through the shields. It is a genius build, that uses the current mechanics very well. But I'm seeing self modulating fire on more and more ships, which is why I'm feeling shield penetration is becoming the new norm in pvp. Hence the request for shield hardness to resist penetration. If not I guess it's no biggie, just have to adapt and make sure to get my hands on self modulating fire and some BO doffs while they're not super expensive.
self-modulating fire is definitely a nice trait...i decided to pick one up for my romulan main (who flies a scimitar) to see what all the fuss was about since someone in my fleet kept bringing it up
damn, it was an awesome experience the first time i saw it in action
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Comments
I think there has been something lost in translation here, because i can see that there are some confused with my postings. So, I will try to clear up any confusion over my proposed changes.
Below is the current system on the tribble server.
• ENG 5 = Threat Control / Battery Expertise
• ENG 10 = Max Hull Capacity / Subsystem Repair
• ENG 15 = Engine Power / Shield Power
• ENG 20 = Aux Power / Weapon Power
• SCI 5 = Transwarp Recharge / Sector Space Travel
• SCI 10 = Max Shield Capacity / Stealth
• SCI 15 = Control Resistance / Perception
• SCI 20 = Energy Drain Resist / Shield Drain Resist
• TAC 5 = Hangar Health / Hangar Damage
• TAC 10 = Projectile Crit H / Projectile Crit D
• TAC 15 = Energy Crit H / Energy Crit D
• TAC 20 = Accuracy / Defense
Below is my proposed chart.
ENG 5 = Battery Expertise / Subsystem Repair
ENG 10 = Max Hull Capacity / Hangar Health
ENG 15 = Engine Power / Shield Power
ENG 20 = Aux Power / Weapon Power
SCI 5 = Transwarp Recharge / Sector Space Travel
SCI 10 = Max Shield Capacity / Control Resistance
SCI 15 = Stealth / Perception
SCI 20 = Energy Drain Resist / Shield Drain Resist
TAC 5 = Threat Control / Hangar Damage
TAC 10 = Projectile Crit H / Projectile Crit D
TAC 15 = Energy Crit H / Energy Crit D
TAC 20 = Accuracy / Defense
As it is right now, in the first chart, the unlocks is clearly ineffective for tactical players who do not fly carriers because "TAC 5 = Hangar Health / Hangar Damage" will not serve any purpose for them.
The second chart i have proposed will correct this error.
The chart that others are proposing is:
• ENG 5 = Hangar Health/ Battery Expertise
• ENG 10 = Max Hull Capacity / Subsystem Repair
• ENG 15 = Engine Power / Shield Power
• ENG 20 = Aux Power / Weapon Power
• SCI 5 = Transwarp Recharge / Sector Space Travel
• SCI 10 = Max Shield Capacity / Stealth
• SCI 15 = Control Resistance / Perception
• SCI 20 = Energy Drain Resist / Shield Drain Resist
• TAC 5 = Threat Control/ Hangar Damage
• TAC 10 = Projectile Crit H / Projectile Crit D
• TAC 15 = Energy Crit H / Energy Crit D
• TAC 20 = Accuracy / Defense
It keeps things that are part of the current Holodeck skill system available without mutual exclusion, gives the carrier players early access to Hangar bonuses without having to climb too high up the non-Science trees, since most carriers are Science-leaning, gives those who don't fly a ship with a hangar something they can use in every unlock path at 5 points, and removes the "Sophie's Choice" of Threat Control or Battery Expertise in the current build.
Thank you for clarifying, I will compromise and agree with this.
I like the swap threat and hangar health it seems like a good compromise IMO. In fact I think that's the perfect unlock layout for everyone involved, it would completely satisfy every build type I can think of.
I don't know why I am having such a hard time with the concept of "damage resistance".
Why does shield hardness NOT effect the bleed through to hull?
Isn't the amount of damage going to hull related to how much damage gets through to the shields in the first place?
So, what does it mean when Borticus said:
"Armor Pen is just a negative damage resistance. Invest in more Damage Resistance in order to defend against penetration.
Shield Pen is just a negative shield hardness. Invest in more Shield Hardness in order to defend against penetration."
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/comment/12881518/#Comment_12881518
So, what Borticus said about Shield Penetration is wrong, then. ???
Because if Shield Penetration only increases the "bleed through" damage to hull and does not interact with shield damage resistance....there is no way that Shield Hardness (resistance) could counter Shield Penetration (bleed through).
What happens in Armor Penetration? Because there is no "bleed through" on hull...so what the heck is penetration doing, there?
I am thoroughly confused.
I see there is 2 damage resistances now on our ships: SHIELD damage resistance and HULL damage resistance. IN the skill tree shield damage resistance is called "Shield Hardness"; and hull damage resistance is called "Hull Plating".
And Shield resistance and Hull damage does not interact with each other??? I don't know why?
And somewhere in there ALL of it is effected by 75% "reduction" on damage resistance?? Somehow?
Is there another thread about all this damage resistance stuff somewhere that explains this better?
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
100 plasma damage comes at your face (er, your ship). Assuming a Standard Shield (say, one with 10% Bleedthrough, 90% absorption), your hull takes 10, your shields take 90.
The 10 to your hull does not care - at all - what goes on with your shields. It *does* care about what your damage resistance modifier is (your hull resistance, i.e., whatever your current % Plasma resist is), and that will determine what % of the 10 will be deducted from your hull HP (if you're buffed, that could be significantly less than 10; if you're debuffed, it could be more than 10!).
The 90 to your shields does not care - at all - what is going on with the 10 that went to your hull. It does not care about your damage resistance modifier. It *does* care about your shield hardness, which is basically damage resistance for shields, and will determine what % of the 90 will be deducted from your shields HP.
If your attacker has more shield penetration, that just means more than the initial 10% of damage will be distributed to your hull instead of your shields - instead of a 10/90 split, maybe you're hit with a 30/70 split. The 30 will then get run through the (hull) damage resistance sausage-maker to determine what % of 30 is actually deducted from your hull HP, the 70 will get run through the shield hardness sausage-maker to determine what % of 70 is actually deducted from your shield HP.
If you improve the RESILIENCY/ABSORPTION of your shields (say you have a resilient shield array, which changes the distribution to 5% hull bleedthrough, 95% shield absorption), then 5% of damage ignore shields, applies directly to your hull, with your (hull) damage resistance multiplier determining what % of 5 you take in actual damage, while the other 95 goes to shields (although Resilient Shields have an extra step which "negates" some of that 95 before it runs through the hardness formula).
TL; DR:
Shields absorb a percentage of damage. Actual damage shields take is a % of that damage based on your hardness (can be +/- 100% depending on shield hardness buffs and shield hardness debuffs).
Hull takes the percentage of damage that doesn't get absorbed by shields. Actual damage hull takes is a % of that damage based on your damage resistance multiplier (itself the concert of your damage resistance rating, your damage resistance bonus rating, and any armor penetration/damage resistance rating reduction debuffs "up" when damage is applied; can similarly be +/- 100%).
Shield penetration means a lower percentage of initial damage is absorbed by shields and instead goes to hull (changes the normal 10/90 or 5/95 distribution in favor of more hull). Increased shield resilience or absorption means a higher percentage of initial damage is absorbed by shields and a lower percentage goes to hull.
Savvy?
Yes, I was wrong. Was speaking off-the-cuff and didn't think it all the way through. The descriptions given by Spartan are more accurate to the actual mechanics.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
We have consensus! Swapping Hanger Health to ENG 5 and Threat Control to TAC 5 brings about a golden age of universal joy and prosperity. Or at least, interest in some builds focused on things other than raw weapon DPS.
Now we just need to convince the one and only person in the room who actually gets to vote
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
:::Shifty Eyes:::
:::Slowly Pushes Pie Towards Jeremy:::
Can I haz........ Andorian Phasers in R&D System, or at least the full set in the Fleet Store....
I offer 10 @tacofangs if ........... I can make all my beams a pretty pink or purple....
~slips 300 quatloos into Borticus' account~
You don't seem to realise that the Threat Control pick also enhances NOT having it toggled on, and is therefore of great use to ANY Tac Captain.
This is why I think pairing it with Hull Capacity (and to a lesser extent, Batteries) is such a good choice. Sometimes I want threat, but not extra threat. Having the option to not take Threat Control, not have my threat reduced, and get something more useful to that build like extra HP is a great choice.
Someone made a good point about a Threat Control/Pet HP option being nice because pets shouldn't need HP if you're tanking...except when you consider all the AOE that wrecks them in this game, and the fact that Threat Control is going to indirectly put more aggro on your pets if you're not running Threatening Stance.
It's almost always easier just attempting to disable the shields outright, or tolerating a lower percentage of shield-penetrating damage.
I will also note that TempHP works as a soft counter, since all damage to hull is absorbed by TempHP before damage is deducted from your HullHP.
I'm not saying 'I can blackmail you', I'm saying 'I can bribe you by giving you a piece of blackmail over someone else'. Although I really don't know how much use as blackmail it would be- it's public knowledge, you can find it on google. It's just that particular dev probably does the frowny face whenever that information comes up because quite frankly it's more than a little embarrassing, albeit in a humorous way.
What kind of bribes will be needed to fix the torpedo bugs? Just the bugs. A different arrangement can be made in dealing w/ the outdated mechanics
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
Now that we have come to an agreement, our next task is to convince the developers!
You do, eh?
I will triple whatever x3of9 is giving you, and make you an offer you 'can't refuse'!
Looping in @iusasset for this breakdown.
Unless I missed something for energy weapons, I believe the max shieldPen that can be attained is 60% for 10sec. after a crit.
EDIT: I did miss the BO DOffs. 30% chance to proc for 35% shieldPen (Max 3 VR DOffs). Still RNG-based and requires BO.
For Kinetic Capt's using torps (but NOT Transphasics), you have the following scenario:
Intense Focus: 1.5% shieldPen per 15sec (max 4 stacks at 6% shieldPen after being in combat for 1min.)
Kinetic Precision: +10% (always on)
Self-Modulating Fire: 50% for 10 sec on outgoing crit (45 sec icd/lockout)
Weapon System Synergy: 50% for 10 sec AFTER obtaining ELEVEN stacks (either bug is back, or latency, or both) with a 20 second icd/lockout before stacks can be obtained. Stacks are built per firing cycle for each energy weapon (why not per shot like Plasma Explosions?). This still doesn't work w/ 'heavy' torpedoes, FYI. This works better/faster when you have more energy weapons firing in a fast cycle.
On an opening salvo in PvE I typically have a ~4sec window where I have 100% shieldPen, and then the stars have to align if there are breaks in combat (like in PvP). Compare this to a ship that has 4x Embassy consoles and has 8 arrays + FaW, where the Plasma Explosions are hitting for HY1 damage or more... directly to hull.
Now, if a Torp Capt uses Transphasics, yes, they'll have more shieldPen options available, but any 1/2 way decent PvPer will have kinetic resists on the ready. Transphasics already hit for so little, that whatever finally makes it to hull is a pittance compared to the shield bleedthrough damage from a non-Transphasic torp. Even worse is the complete negation of torp damage using one of the resist batteries. Reference AstroZombie's YouTube channel for some of his fights where he shrugs off my hits w/ 100% shieldPen like it was nothing.
So, to your point, there are concerns about the plethora of shield ignoring attacks, to which I say, "Then the entire combat mechanic needs to be revisited at a fundamental level and build anew from there." As it is right now, powerCreep is the name of the game, and the arms race is skewed, so take what you can where you can until the opportunity to rebuild everything from the ground up presents itself. Unfortunately, it's too soon for 11.5, so....
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
damn, it was an awesome experience the first time i saw it in action
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"