A bit of a drawback from the testing on Tribble is that you won't reach actual new players.
I almost bet that a lot of new player will be worried on how the can unlock their "ultimate" ability, and think it's very important to do...
There should be no reason for anyone to have to distract points from the foundation of their characters.
Yeah, I think it may be a mistake veering the skill tree toward gimmick-y "traits" (I guess that is what they are ????). I think the "Skill Tree" should be the basic building block. The base for all characters.
And from THERE bring in unique via abilities, gear, specialization, traits and ship choices....whether paid for or freebies. AND THERE are sooooo many choices with all of those, already (rep, fleet, crafting and all those new mods) ... even I am getting lost with all the stuff coming out and have not bothered keeping up with it.
I have no idea if a new player could even see everything. Or see how it could go together. They would probably just ask: "what is the best?", use that, and forget about the rest. No experimentation.
And I think that is already happening in the game.
Its all about making money. Just like the Crafting Revamp. This is another one of those PWE telling Cryptic to find ways to improve the sales of XYZ.
With the current setup of Skill Tree Management. Its been out for 4 years now and the vast majority of players have it figured out enough that word quickly and easily spreads to newbies as they flow into the game and into Fleets. With this new system. Everyone, except those who took part in the Testing or was keeping tabs on someone doing the Testing, will be left scratching their heads as to what they should do with their skill points. And because of the new 'lock it in at every skill point' design philosophy. A lot of old and new players are going to trip themselves up with that alone. Add in new players coming into the game and seeing the 'Ultimates' and assuming that they actually ARE ultimate abilities that will be MUST HAVEs at end game. And youre going to have a lot of people chasing red herrings. Even with a sales event for the Respec Tokens. Cryptic is going to see an uptick in sales. A cheaper price is just going to make the sale of that item look that much more appealing to anyone thinking 'I might as well get a few now just in case I TRIBBLE it up'. Youre going to need a Respec Token every time you make a poor choice of skill point placement.
This whole thing is about improving the monetization of that aspect of the game.
well this is first actually smart post i've read on this topic. all true
anyway my honest opinion on the subject is that all of these guys throwing lot of numbers around are actually missin the point majestically
this is not quantum physics its video game and most folks out there ( me included ) just want to play the game..and as it is..fundamental of any game out here there anywhere is "gameplay suppose to be FUN"
ok. crunching numbers might be definition of fun for about 1 guy in 100 000 but that 100k of ppl just wanna have fun playing the game and when they go into frey with their chars and ships they wanna feel that their chars ships are powerful. they dont want to run five apps in the beackground collecting statistics and all that stuff. most of them wouldnt know to make heads or tails out of it anyway
...and 90,000 thousand of those people won't know the difference between an optimized build and buttons the mashed at random anyway. Thanks to the internet, maybe about half of them will find your "1 guy"'s video on you-tube and copy it verbatim without ever understanding WHY they're making those choices. Nothing about the revamp changes any of that. The real tinkerers and theory crafters are still going to do everything on the test server and then drag those discoveries back into the light.
Sure the lack of PowerCart is disappointing. Possibly even dangerously stupid. But I'm not prepared to blithely assume it's MALICIOUS.
Using another account to pat yourself on the back does not strengthen your rediculous theories in any way... quite the opposite in fact.
that would be exellent point if u are right about it. but i have no idea who that guy is but i have pretty good picture what kind of idjit u are judging by the comment. u have to grow up.
Some people like the statistics and the math and the analyzing and comparing. Some just want the action, some people like the click-y stuff. Some folks want the socializing and teaming, some play solo. It's all fine, everyone is different.
The fact is: On Holodeck, it costs money for a Respec.
It is not changing, from what Cryptic has said so far.
I am not gonna hold my breath.
On Tribble, it costs zero for a Respec. For now.
And I can collect stacks and stacks of Respecs and use them all.
I can remake skill trees, and just move one point back and forth all day.
Cryptic is allowing us to play on Tribble. Again, for free.
Even without a subscription. They have blocked non-subscribers from Tribble before. It does not cost me a dime to copy all my characters over.
...and 90,000 thousand of those people won't know the difference between an optimized build and buttons the mashed at random anyway.
^^^^ THIS would be me.
And I don't use parsers or understand math and numbers that well...and I love my space bar.
Having the ability to do content on Tribble (set up on the new Skill Tree) then being able to test the same content with the same character on Holodeck IS PRICELESS.
It is easier to note any tangible differences...and where I may need to make adjustments in the new tree to help my game when this goes live.
This ability to do checks side by side will be gone once 11.5 hits. I do not have very serious note taking mojo...nor an eidetic memory. I wouldn't be able to do it without this testing period. And most people won't.
So, I am getting cracking on it while it is free.
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
"When insulting someone's intelligence on the Internet one should be mindful of their own spelling and grammar."
LOL..you mean when you make asumption about someones identity and then take that asumption to hart and treat it as a fact and acting accordingly throughout all of it being ofc literate carfully spell-grammar checking your words makes you what exactly?
kid, spell-grammar checking doesnt make yoo smarter as matter of fact insitance on it an idiot again because you assume that english is everyones main tongue and they are obliged to write it inppecably when fact is that half of literate brits regulary make spell/grammar mistakes.
someone once defined 3 types of lie gradationally.. small lie, Big lie and Statistics( HUGE lie )))
my ppl have a saying that goes along the line like this " some eat meat, some eat cabbage in avarege we all eat dumplings"
well try to explain statistically how those mates who are poor and cant afford to buy meat actually eat dumplings like everybody else in avarage. Now how this relates to gameplay that revolves around CHANCES?
math physics numbers law of avarege etc etc cant take into accaunt manifestation of chaos in the system..most significant manifestation we call LUCK. Its incalculable. period.
what that actually mean?
lets not go futher than key/box mechanics in this game..its same mechanics as all else
if i have 1 key and 1 box and you have the same as me 1/1 and we open that box with that key you get a ship and i get a sh it like doff pack and 4 lobis. We had same chances to get ship right? not so..1% chance to same TRIBBLE may occure more often that mine 10% because he is luckier than i am.
all that thinkering is insignificant beacause it cant incalculate how much player personal luck will affect the gamplay.
lets work another example. lets say we have identical builds identical ships gear etc etc and we start testing..like shooting at identical targets and then after that we take that parsed notes and compare it..your averege DPS might be 50% higher than mine.
for every shot you make game engine rolls a virtual dice to determine will you hit critically or regullary so we have 20% critical chance but that 20% may manifest twice as often to some bloke then to the next so that bloke will have higher avarege and overall DPS output right?
few days ago i had a talk with the regular guy who desnt crunch nubers but who took some number crunching guy build that suppose to have huge dps and simply rebuild it for himself and he wondered how he cant get those published numbers not even close. numbers dont lie right?
someone once defined 3 types of lie gradationally.. small lie, Big lie and Statistics( HUGE lie )))
my ppl have a saying that goes along the line like this " some eat meat, some eat cabbage in avarege we all eat dumplings"
well try to explain statistically how those mates who are poor and cant afford to buy meat actually eat dumplings like everybody else in avarage. Now how this relates to gameplay that revolves around CHANCES?
math physics numbers law of avarege etc etc cant take into accaunt manifestation of chaos in the system..most significant manifestation we call LUCK. Its incalculable. period.
what that actually mean?
lets not go futher than key/box mechanics in this game..its same mechanics as all else
if i have 1 key and 1 box and you have the same as me 1/1 and we open that box with that key you get a ship and i get a sh it like doff pack and 4 lobis. We had same chances to get ship right? not so..1% chance to same TRIBBLE may occure more often that mine 10% because he is luckier than i am.
all that thinkering is insignificant beacause it cant incalculate how much player personal luck will affect the gamplay.
lets work another example. lets say we have identical builds identical ships gear etc etc and we start testing..like shooting at identical targets and then after that we take that parsed notes and compare it..your averege DPS might be 50% higher than mine.
for every shot you make game engine rolls a virtual dice to determine will you hit critically or regullary so we have 20% critical chance but that 20% may manifest twice as often to some bloke then to the next so that bloke will have higher avarege and overall DPS output right?
few days ago i had a talk with the regular guy who desnt crunch nubers but who took some number crunching guy build that suppose to have huge dps and simply rebuild it for himself and he wondered how he cant get those published numbers not even close. numbers dont lie right?
wynil....the fact remains that math allows us to quantify, define and compare the aspects of the game from one iteration to another. To further follow this fact, the entire game is really just a mathematical construct that can be predicted and defined because the entire construct is defined, quantified and written. Randomness in a computer program is really not 'random' but a definable mathematical equation that if you put a certain number in you will get the exact same number out. In a computer program, "chaos" or "luck" or any other word you want to use to represent an undefined quantity does not exist in a computer program. Programing can be coded in such a way it seems random within our ability to perceive the results.
With that knowledge, all these people that take the time to figure out the math behind all of the actions that being tracked is useful in spotting how the changes are affecting the game from each iteration. The math is the best way to track, define and quantify these changes because, at it's core, the game is nothing more than a mathematical equation.
As for your example of the guy copying the other guys setup, the answer is simple. Without understanding the intent of the skill choices and planned tactical usage of said setup you will not get to the same level of success. Number crunchers look to optimize the effects of the program. To optimize the program requires that you not only make the right choices of where to spend the points but also includes gear selection, talent choices, bridge officer choices, interface layout, UI interaction, tactical choices of target selection, when to fire, flight path, skill activation, and many many other things that go into the build that are not specifically defined in the build. And it's those things that set one users results over another.
The numbers are necessary to understand if the changes are good or bad. And the numbers are good for determine how drastic those changes are. And the numbers are necessary to determine if things are effective or not.
So instead of attacking the number crunchers and their efforts to help the rest of us, try to understand the information. Use it to your advantage to do what you want. And be thankful that in the end, these things go towards making the experience better for all of us.
And before you think I am a number cruncher, I don't have the time to figure out the math. And if you ask anybody who knows me, you will find out that I never do anything base on the odds. I do things based on that fact if I think it's a good or bad thing.
few days ago i had a talk with the regular guy who desnt crunch nubers but who took some number crunching guy build that suppose to have huge dps and simply rebuild it for himself and he wondered how he cant get those published numbers not even close. numbers dont lie right?
Did he respec and change his skill tree?
Does he know where to be on the map in order to kill the most number of enemies? Does he know where the enemies are going to be next and get there in the correct position to kill them?
Did he work with his team to allow him to collect all the damage points? Did his team let him make as many kills as possible?
Everyone else in the team support him with debuffs to the enemy? Was his team helping him by controlling the enemy, like with gravity well? And healing him...so he can stay alive to collect more damage points?
There is a lot more to the stuff going on in the You Tube than just "gear" and "ship". The entire team in the video work together so one person can collect all the damage points on that particular run of the mission.
I tried one time to ask HOW they set up their teams, WHAT everyone else in the teams are doing....so people would understand what was going on in the videos. But then I lost interest in that DPS stuff, so I never pushed it.
p.s...you know what? I even think IF everyone could figure out how teams are supposed to support each other in a mission, gear quality or ship levels would not even matter.
+++++++++++++++++
This thread is about changes being made to the new Skill Tree.
The Skill Tree adjusts the program to allow personal preferences in how you like to use your character in the game.
I believe skill points will make changes to the calculations made by the program, itself....not by chance, but using a new number in the status.
Post edited by where2r1 on
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
few days ago i had a talk with the regular guy who desnt crunch nubers but who took some number crunching guy build that suppose to have huge dps and simply rebuild it for himself and he wondered how he cant get those published numbers not even close. numbers dont lie right?
Did he respec and change his skill tree?
Does he know where to be on the map in order to kill the most number of enemies? Does he know where the enemies are going to be next and get there in the correct position to kill them?
Did he work with his team to allow him to collect all the damage points? Did his team let him make as many kills as possible?
Everyone else in the team support him with debuffs to the enemy? Was his team helping him by controlling the enemy, like with gravity well? And healing him...so he can stay alive to collect more damage points?
There is a lot more to the stuff going on in the You Tube than just "gear" and "ship". The entire team in the video work together so one person can collect all the damage points on that particular run of the mission.
I tried one time to ask HOW they set up their teams, WHAT everyone else in the teams are doing....so people would understand what was going on in the videos. But then I lost interest in that DPS stuff, so I never pushed it.
+++++++++++++++++
This thread is about changes being made to the new Skill Tree.
The Skill Tree adjusts the program to allow personal preferences in how you like to use your character in the game.
I believe skill points will make changes to the calculations made by the program, itself....not by chance, but using a new number in the status.
and new skill tree makes characters reduced for approx a third of their currrent capabilities..
You can translate about 2/3 of the possible skill setup in current system to the new one.
I went along retaining the base weapon DPS from my current setup that is far from good by the way and i manage to do so approx. BUT i'm ending up with significantly reduced hull hp shield hp hull and shield regen. assuming that in order to keep DPS i have to keep energy levels. there is simply put not enough skill points.
Secondly current system is 10 times more flexible then the new one. First thing ppl learn about skill system is that they dont need to maximize skills. Especially higher tier ones that consume a lot of skill points. You have at lvl 50 366 000 skill points that you can allocate up to 300 000 into space skills and up to 100 000 in ground skills. Each skill is divided in 10 levels 0-9 while last 3 level apply the least amount of that particular variable to the character. So removing that last 10th lvl affects the skill quite theoreticaly and for all intentions and purposes is insignificant make a lot of spare points to allocate in other skills right? With new system you have only 3 lvls and removing top lvl in order to allocate point into somthing else leave you significantly reduced in that skill that is quite noticable in gamplay not just in parsing programs or whatever.
We now get the same thing we got with reputation treits nerf. Significant reduction and you guyt are OK with it?
few days ago i had a talk with the regular guy who desnt crunch nubers but who took some number crunching guy build that suppose to have huge dps and simply rebuild it for himself and he wondered how he cant get those published numbers not even close. numbers dont lie right?
Did he respec and change his skill tree?
Does he know where to be on the map in order to kill the most number of enemies? Does he know where the enemies are going to be next and get there in the correct position to kill them?
Did he work with his team to allow him to collect all the damage points? Did his team let him make as many kills as possible?
Everyone else in the team support him with debuffs to the enemy? Was his team helping him by controlling the enemy, like with gravity well? And healing him...so he can stay alive to collect more damage points?
There is a lot more to the stuff going on in the You Tube than just "gear" and "ship". The entire team in the video work together so one person can collect all the damage points on that particular run of the mission.
I tried one time to ask HOW they set up their teams, WHAT everyone else in the teams are doing....so people would understand what was going on in the videos. But then I lost interest in that DPS stuff, so I never pushed it.
+++++++++++++++++
This thread is about changes being made to the new Skill Tree.
The Skill Tree adjusts the program to allow personal preferences in how you like to use your character in the game.
I believe skill points will make changes to the calculations made by the program, itself....not by chance, but using a new number in the status.
and new skill tree makes characters reduced for approx a third of their currrent capabilities..
You can translate about 2/3 of the possible skill setup in current system to the new one.
I went along retaining the base weapon DPS from my current setup that is far from good by the way and i manage to do so approx. BUT i'm ending up with significantly reduced hull hp shield hp hull and shield regen. assuming that in order to keep DPS i have to keep energy levels. there is simply put not enough skill points.
Secondly current system is 10 times more flexible then the new one. First thing ppl learn about skill system is that they dont need to maximize skills. Especially higher tier ones that consume a lot of skill points. You have at lvl 50 366 000 skill points that you can allocate up to 300 000 into space skills and up to 100 000 in ground skills. Each skill is divided in 10 levels 0-9 while last 3 level apply the least amount of that particular variable to the character. So removing that last 10th lvl affects the skill quite theoreticaly and for all intentions and purposes is insignificant make a lot of spare points to allocate in other skills right? With new system you have only 3 lvls and removing top lvl in order to allocate point into somthing else leave you significantly reduced in that skill that is quite noticable in gamplay not just in parsing programs or whatever.
We now get the same thing we got with reputation treits nerf. Significant reduction and you guyt are OK with it?
Actually, I has able to translate my entire build over to the new system and got the same numbers, with points left over. Which I used to actually improve areas that I thought needed to be improved. I lost nothing and gained more than what I had before in survivability and damage.
that would be exellent point if u are right about it. but i have no idea who that guy is but i have pretty good picture what kind of idjit u are judging by the comment. u have to grow up.
Lol, seems you are an idjit. I'm guessing that made up word means some sort of super idiot.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
wynil....the fact remains that math allows us to quantify, define and compare the aspects of the game from one iteration to another. To further follow this fact, the entire game is really just a mathematical construct that can be predicted and defined because the entire construct is defined, quantified and written. Randomness in a computer program is really not 'random' but a definable mathematical equation that if you put a certain number in you will get the exact same number out. In a computer program, "chaos" or "luck" or any other word you want to use to represent an undefined quantity does not exist in a computer program. Programing can be coded in such a way it seems random within our ability to perceive the results.
With that knowledge, all these people that take the time to figure out the math behind all of the actions that being tracked is useful in spotting how the changes are affecting the game from each iteration. The math is the best way to track, define and quantify these changes because, at it's core, the game is nothing more than a mathematical equation.
As for your example of the guy copying the other guys setup, the answer is simple. Without understanding the intent of the skill choices and planned tactical usage of said setup you will not get to the same level of success. Number crunchers look to optimize the effects of the program. To optimize the program requires that you not only make the right choices of where to spend the points but also includes gear selection, talent choices, bridge officer choices, interface layout, UI interaction, tactical choices of target selection, when to fire, flight path, skill activation, and many many other things that go into the build that are not specifically defined in the build. And it's those things that set one users results over another.
The numbers are necessary to understand if the changes are good or bad. And the numbers are good for determine how drastic those changes are. And the numbers are necessary to determine if things are effective or not.
So instead of attacking the number crunchers and their efforts to help the rest of us, try to understand the information. Use it to your advantage to do what you want. And be thankful that in the end, these things go towards making the experience better for all of us.
And before you think I am a number cruncher, I don't have the time to figure out the math. And if you ask anybody who knows me, you will find out that I never do anything base on the odds. I do things based on that fact if I think it's a good or bad thing. [/quote]
if that is entirely true bugs and glitches in programs doesnt suppose to happen right?
all quantified mesured calculated determened, right?
while what u wrote is true its only partialy true. And i have no trouble understanding what u want to say i tought similary 20 year ago.
You said that you dont do thing base on odds. Let me give another example. One of my fleetmates my countryman actually was very good at making money in game and so on..never invested a single cent in game but had all the best gear EC and dill ( ZEN ) could buy. Now I've got my Wells from a lockbox. I took me 45 or 46 attempts. That guy opened more than 300 boxes and he never got any ship from any of them. How that math calculus and all that nonsense explain that? its the same program.. its the same math same quantification the only difference he is he and me is me not him. Whenever there is algorithm calculating odds WE are affecting the outcome of calcualtion.
Most ppl have truble beleiving that there is things unquantifiable in this universe. So let me give another example. we are humans we are made along the same genetic pattern..we have two legs two arms and so on..in that regard we are the same and yet again we are all and each of us unique..there are no 2 of us which are the same. And its the same thing with everything else in universe. like trees rocks grass cats planets stars galaxies. While order provides patterns and formulas and that stuff chaos randomises inside the patterns. Its a bit different explanation of Haisenberg priciple. Or how sombody put it."we live in the world in which 2 plus 2 doesnt always equals 4"
While you can use all that math to quantify what already happened you cant use it to predict what will happen..
or lets go this way..use that math you or anyone else and quantify to me a spot.its infinitly small right? so in a line 1 cm long how many spots are in it? infinity amount..same as in a line 1 mm long..or a moment of time. what it is moment of time? how long it is..do the time flow continnusly or ticks in steps? how many moments of time are there in 1 second? its all math physics sience but its unquantifiable.
anyway i dont think that you are crunching numbers because of what you wrote before . Even if you cant explain it you sense that there is somthing that isnt right in that approach
All that ive said its very easly confirmable by simple experimentation.
Odds. Lets say we play simplest game We throw coin. We have equal chances to get heads or tails right? 50/50 so mathematically and statistically we should get somthing like this. head, tail, head, tail, head, tail. right? wrong. we weil get rows like head, head, tail, head, teail tail head tail tail head head appears quite random. if we could throw that coin infinitetime we we alway have same summs of head and tails but in reality we dont have infinite time. we have limited time or resources. so lets enrich the game with 100$ on the table and 100$ for you and lets say that when u get head u take a $ when u get tail u give a $ what will happen? If you play long enough you will loose all that 100 bucks because its more likley that you belong to the unlucku 85% of human population. Summ of your negative throws wil be higher that summ of positive. But for 15% of population its other way around. Its very simple experiment. Now computers exist in the same universe as everithing else so i wonder why you guys believe that they arent affected by the same whims as everithing else? That they are somhow immune to all of this? What do you think where are those knowns as Murphys laws came from?
all of this seems like total offtopic but its actually fundamental to the topic.
Topic is new skill system and how that system will affect us when they get it flushed to holodeck.
i play STO since 2012. ive been on and off and i never took participation in any of these discussions and debates. Whatever so far devs lunched our way it was fine with me..but this new skill system..its so fundamentally wrong that i took the time to participate.
I wrote them ticket and they directed me here on this forum.
wynil....the fact remains that math allows us to quantify, define and compare the aspects of the game from one iteration to another. To further follow this fact, the entire game is really just a mathematical construct that can be predicted and defined because the entire construct is defined, quantified and written. Randomness in a computer program is really not 'random' but a definable mathematical equation that if you put a certain number in you will get the exact same number out. In a computer program, "chaos" or "luck" or any other word you want to use to represent an undefined quantity does not exist in a computer program. Programing can be coded in such a way it seems random within our ability to perceive the results.
With that knowledge, all these people that take the time to figure out the math behind all of the actions that being tracked is useful in spotting how the changes are affecting the game from each iteration. The math is the best way to track, define and quantify these changes because, at it's core, the game is nothing more than a mathematical equation.
As for your example of the guy copying the other guys setup, the answer is simple. Without understanding the intent of the skill choices and planned tactical usage of said setup you will not get to the same level of success. Number crunchers look to optimize the effects of the program. To optimize the program requires that you not only make the right choices of where to spend the points but also includes gear selection, talent choices, bridge officer choices, interface layout, UI interaction, tactical choices of target selection, when to fire, flight path, skill activation, and many many other things that go into the build that are not specifically defined in the build. And it's those things that set one users results over another.
The numbers are necessary to understand if the changes are good or bad. And the numbers are good for determine how drastic those changes are. And the numbers are necessary to determine if things are effective or not.
So instead of attacking the number crunchers and their efforts to help the rest of us, try to understand the information. Use it to your advantage to do what you want. And be thankful that in the end, these things go towards making the experience better for all of us.
And before you think I am a number cruncher, I don't have the time to figure out the math. And if you ask anybody who knows me, you will find out that I never do anything base on the odds. I do things based on that fact if I think it's a good or bad thing.
if that is entirely true bugs and glitches in programs doesnt suppose to happen right?
all quantified mesured calculated determened, right?
while what u wrote is true its only partialy true. And i have no trouble understanding what u want to say i tought similary 20 year ago.
You said that you dont do thing base on odds. Let me give another example. One of my fleetmates my countryman actually was very good at making money in game and so on..never invested a single cent in game but had all the best gear EC and dill ( ZEN ) could buy. Now I've got my Wells from a lockbox. I took me 45 or 46 attempts. That guy opened more than 300 boxes and he never got any ship from any of them. How that math calculus and all that nonsense explain that? its the same program.. its the same math same quantification the only difference he is he and me is me not him. Whenever there is algorithm calculating odds WE are affecting the outcome of calcualtion.
Most ppl have truble beleiving that there is things unquantifiable in this universe. So let me give another example. we are humans we are made along the same genetic pattern..we have two legs two arms and so on..in that regard we are the same and yet again we are all and each of us unique..there are no 2 of us which are the same. And its the same thing with everything else in universe. like trees rocks grass cats planets stars galaxies. While order provides patterns and formulas and that stuff chaos randomises inside the patterns. Its a bit different explanation of Haisenberg priciple. Or how sombody put it."we live in the world in which 2 plus 2 doesnt always equals 4"
While you can use all that math to quantify what already happened you cant use it to predict what will happen..
or lets go this way..use that math you or anyone else and quantify to me a spot.its infinitly small right? so in a line 1 cm long how many spots are in it? infinity amount..same as in a line 1 mm long..or a moment of time. what it is moment of time? how long it is..do the time flow continnusly or ticks in steps? how many moments of time are there in 1 second? its all math physics sience but its unquantifiable.
anyway i dont think that you are crunching numbers because of what you wrote before . Even if you cant explain it you sense that there is somthing that isnt right in that approach
All that ive said its very easly confirmable by simple experimentation.
Odds. Lets say we play simplest game We throw coin. We have equal chances to get heads or tails right? 50/50 so mathematically and statistically we should get somthing like this. head, tail, head, tail, head, tail. right? wrong. we weil get rows like head, head, tail, head, teail tail head tail tail head head appears quite random. if we could throw that coin infinitetime we we alway have same summs of head and tails but in reality we dont have infinite time. we have limited time or resources. so lets enrich the game with 100$ on the table and 100$ for you and lets say that when u get head u take a $ when u get tail u give a $ what will happen? If you play long enough you will loose all that 100 bucks because its more likley that you belong to the unlucku 85% of human population. Summ of your negative throws wil be higher that summ of positive. But for 15% of population its other way around. Its very simple experiment. Now computers exist in the same universe as everithing else so i wonder why you guys believe that they arent affected by the same whims as everithing else? That they are somhow immune to all of this? What do you think where are those knowns as Murphys laws came from?
all of this seems like total offtopic but its actually fundamental to the topic.
Topic is new skill system and how that system will affect us when they get it flushed to holodeck.
i play STO since 2012. ive been on and off and i never took participation in any of these discussions and debates. Whatever so far devs lunched our way it was fine with me..but this new skill system..its so fundamentally wrong that i took the time to participate.
I wrote them ticket and they directed me here on this forum.
[/quote]
Bugs and glitches in programs are nothing more than the failure on the coders part to account for what they wrote will do. The more complicated the system, the easier it is to make this mistake. And the harder it is to correct. Nothing random or "chaotic" about it. If a person wrote the code exactly like the first coder, they will get the same results.
As for what happened between you and your friend, you failed to account for the input source that was used to create the "so-called" random number that was used to create the final results. If you were on his system and tried the to open the same box as him, your results would be exactly the same. You or him are not the variables. The input source or "seed" is the variable that sets it all in motion. And that seed will be different from person to person unless every factor is exactly the same.
Simple experimentation can only give you the most simplistic of data models to work with. The more complicated the data your are trying to track, the more complicated your experimentation has to be to reach 100% accuracy as you attempt to account for each variable that is defined in the system.
In a program, I most assuredly can predict an outcome because all I have to do is control all of the inputs. In a testing environment I can directly replace the source with my own numbers to see what that particular set of variables will garner as a net result. There is no unknown quantity in this.
With flipping a coin, I can't predict because it is not a mathematical construct but an actual physical object. Real world objects are subject to the variable "chaos" because it's not a mathematical construct on a machine. It can't be predicted or anticipated. And only the past is quantifiable in the case of reality as we perceive it. The future is an unknown, unquantifiable and therefore undefinable with the capabilities of our ability to perceive it.
This game is a very complex and complicated mathematical construct. And as such, I doubt that it's even possible for humans to completely memorize, recall and comprehend the entirety of it on the level that any programmer would be able to write code in such a fashion as to not create bugs or glitches. The best that be expected that any bugs or glitches would be minimized from obvious missteps and only the weird interactions or unusual results would happen. And with sufficient testing, the majority of possible combinations would be vetted. But in the end they will not be able to catch them all because of the complex nature of the mathematical construct. And there is always the chance that the complexity of the construct may be such that there are some interactions they may never be able to "fixed" because of the side effects the "fix" may generate. All of which are quantifiable and reproducible.
The game is not like real life, it can be manipulates and predicted. Real life is not the game because it's not a mathematical construct. You can't use the one to prove a point in the other. Or even use it to model the possibilities of it's end reactions.
And yes, this is relevant because we are talking about we can provide feedback in an effective and useful manner. In the case of this game, hard numbers will generate better results in proving points than general observations.
No, it just makes it a mystery why you (collectively) are all engaging in this synapse-rotting exchange in a thread that had actually been a useful work place. At this point I largely assume the Devs have left in disgust and hopefully we can pick up again next week in a fresh thread examining a fresh build.
While there are some useful people on here...the vast majority of people on this forum are toxic assets who don't know jack about game balance and only complain about me me me.
Focusing on the problem, or even commenting on it, only serves to emphasize it and reinforce it. Ignore it, and respond only to the positive/constructive comments, and things just might improve.
And to confirm another point... I think we will be starting a new "v3" thread with the next build, as this one seems to have run its course.
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
So whats going to happen to the trait warp core efficiency/warp core potential for players chars/boffs?
Right now with maxing out all the power increasing skill and come short 2 power for each system, which would probably come from by joined trill race traits and chosen traits + boff traits.
Would be a shame if this got somehow axed because there was quite a bit effort/money spent to get those.
I do not understand where all this is coming from??? Are you still talking about the skill tree?
There is no math or chance involved with filling out the Skill Tree board.
Just matching the numbers between Holodeck and Tribble.
At least, that is how I been doing it.
I took my notes of the numbers in the status on Holodeck (and made a spreadsheet and printed it out so I can follow along on paper, even). I picked points in Tribble until the status numbers came close to matching....that became my "basic" skill tree.
You don't even have to look at the status page on Tribble because they wrote the numbers all down in the skill tree information.
After that, I had several skill points left over I could move around. And I been playing with those "extra" points figuring out which new skill I want to put them....or if I wanted more or less in something else.
And over the course of the month, I just watched for adjustments made on the program to see if it changed anything from the original "set up".
But no math, no chances....just compare numbers. And test new set ups from that.
Believe me, if there was math and calculations involved, I would be totally lost.
P.S. the only character I am having problems converting over is the Ferengi where I placed 5 points in quite a few old skills...and did not stick with the 3-6-9 "standard" cut offs.
Post edited by where2r1 on
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
So actual feedback: It seems that a number of control abilities, like Gravity Well, either don't benefit/trigger the 'Control Amplification' subskill, or don't list it on their tooltips. Might want to get that checked out @borticuscryptic
So actual feedback: It seems that a number of control abilities, like Gravity Well, either don't benefit/trigger the 'Control Amplification' subskill, or don't list it on their tooltips. Might want to get that checked out @borticuscryptic
Exactly. I see same thing with Overwhelming Force (Drain infection don't work on Charged Particle Burst and Control Amplification don't work on Photonic Shockwave) and Viral Torpedo (Control Amplification don't work, and on top of that, this trait don't take any duration bonus from Control Expertise).
So actual feedback: It seems that a number of control abilities, like Gravity Well, either don't benefit/trigger the 'Control Amplification' subskill, or don't list it on their tooltips. Might want to get that checked out @borticuscryptic
Exactly. I see same thing with Overwhelming Force (Drain infection don't work on Charged Particle Burst and Control Amplification don't work on Photonic Shockwave) and Viral Torpedo (Control Amplification don't work, and on top of that, this trait don't take any duration bonus from Control Expertise).
I'm not sure if Overwhelming Force was meant to proc those. A few months back, Overwhelming Force did not seem to proc the relevant prcs from my Deflector. Maybe this acts the same (procs only from BOffs and console clickies)?
Someone mentioned in the Strategist Spec thread that there are nowadays a lot of shield penetration skills available, and not really anything to negate that. I am not entirely sure how they stack, but if naively stacked, it would not be that difficult to reach 10 to 25 points of extra penetration. And of course, most science exotic damage abilities ignore shields anway (and the ones that don't tend not to be used much.)
This is probably more a PvP than a PvE thing - NPCs generally don't have extra shield ignoring abilities.
Maybe that is something to look into.
If in the skill tree itself, maybe then in the Shield Mastery skill? Maybe "Shield Mastery" could also temporarily generate immunity to bleedthrough (for 1-2 seconds or so).
If not in the skill tree itself, then at least in terms of traits, bridge officer skills or sets.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Comments
Player and forumite formerly known as FEELTHETHUNDER
Expatriot Might Characters in EXILE
well this is first actually smart post i've read on this topic. all true
anyway my honest opinion on the subject is that all of these guys throwing lot of numbers around are actually missin the point majestically
this is not quantum physics its video game and most folks out there ( me included ) just want to play the game..and as it is..fundamental of any game out here there anywhere is "gameplay suppose to be FUN"
ok. crunching numbers might be definition of fun for about 1 guy in 100 000 but that 100k of ppl just wanna have fun playing the game and when they go into frey with their chars and ships they wanna feel that their chars ships are powerful. they dont want to run five apps in the beackground collecting statistics and all that stuff. most of them wouldnt know to make heads or tails out of it anyway
Sure the lack of PowerCart is disappointing. Possibly even dangerously stupid. But I'm not prepared to blithely assume it's MALICIOUS.
that would be exellent point if u are right about it. but i have no idea who that guy is but i have pretty good picture what kind of idjit u are judging by the comment. u have to grow up.
The fact is: On Holodeck, it costs money for a Respec.
It is not changing, from what Cryptic has said so far.
I am not gonna hold my breath.
On Tribble, it costs zero for a Respec. For now.
And I can collect stacks and stacks of Respecs and use them all.
I can remake skill trees, and just move one point back and forth all day.
Cryptic is allowing us to play on Tribble. Again, for free.
Even without a subscription. They have blocked non-subscribers from Tribble before. It does not cost me a dime to copy all my characters over.
I am going to take every advantage of it.
+++++++++++++++++++++
^^^^ THIS would be me.
And I don't use parsers or understand math and numbers that well...and I love my space bar.
Having the ability to do content on Tribble (set up on the new Skill Tree) then being able to test the same content with the same character on Holodeck IS PRICELESS.
It is easier to note any tangible differences...and where I may need to make adjustments in the new tree to help my game when this goes live.
This ability to do checks side by side will be gone once 11.5 hits. I do not have very serious note taking mojo...nor an eidetic memory. I wouldn't be able to do it without this testing period. And most people won't.
So, I am getting cracking on it while it is free.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
LOL..you mean when you make asumption about someones identity and then take that asumption to hart and treat it as a fact and acting accordingly throughout all of it being ofc literate carfully spell-grammar checking your words makes you what exactly?
kid, spell-grammar checking doesnt make yoo smarter as matter of fact insitance on it an idiot again because you assume that english is everyones main tongue and they are obliged to write it inppecably when fact is that half of literate brits regulary make spell/grammar mistakes.
stop trolling
someone once defined 3 types of lie gradationally.. small lie, Big lie and Statistics( HUGE lie )))
my ppl have a saying that goes along the line like this " some eat meat, some eat cabbage in avarege we all eat dumplings"
well try to explain statistically how those mates who are poor and cant afford to buy meat actually eat dumplings like everybody else in avarage. Now how this relates to gameplay that revolves around CHANCES?
math physics numbers law of avarege etc etc cant take into accaunt manifestation of chaos in the system..most significant manifestation we call LUCK. Its incalculable. period.
what that actually mean?
lets not go futher than key/box mechanics in this game..its same mechanics as all else
if i have 1 key and 1 box and you have the same as me 1/1 and we open that box with that key you get a ship and i get a sh it like doff pack and 4 lobis. We had same chances to get ship right? not so..1% chance to same TRIBBLE may occure more often that mine 10% because he is luckier than i am.
all that thinkering is insignificant beacause it cant incalculate how much player personal luck will affect the gamplay.
lets work another example. lets say we have identical builds identical ships gear etc etc and we start testing..like shooting at identical targets and then after that we take that parsed notes and compare it..your averege DPS might be 50% higher than mine.
for every shot you make game engine rolls a virtual dice to determine will you hit critically or regullary so we have 20% critical chance but that 20% may manifest twice as often to some bloke then to the next so that bloke will have higher avarege and overall DPS output right?
few days ago i had a talk with the regular guy who desnt crunch nubers but who took some number crunching guy build that suppose to have huge dps and simply rebuild it for himself and he wondered how he cant get those published numbers not even close. numbers dont lie right?
wynil....the fact remains that math allows us to quantify, define and compare the aspects of the game from one iteration to another. To further follow this fact, the entire game is really just a mathematical construct that can be predicted and defined because the entire construct is defined, quantified and written. Randomness in a computer program is really not 'random' but a definable mathematical equation that if you put a certain number in you will get the exact same number out. In a computer program, "chaos" or "luck" or any other word you want to use to represent an undefined quantity does not exist in a computer program. Programing can be coded in such a way it seems random within our ability to perceive the results.
With that knowledge, all these people that take the time to figure out the math behind all of the actions that being tracked is useful in spotting how the changes are affecting the game from each iteration. The math is the best way to track, define and quantify these changes because, at it's core, the game is nothing more than a mathematical equation.
As for your example of the guy copying the other guys setup, the answer is simple. Without understanding the intent of the skill choices and planned tactical usage of said setup you will not get to the same level of success. Number crunchers look to optimize the effects of the program. To optimize the program requires that you not only make the right choices of where to spend the points but also includes gear selection, talent choices, bridge officer choices, interface layout, UI interaction, tactical choices of target selection, when to fire, flight path, skill activation, and many many other things that go into the build that are not specifically defined in the build. And it's those things that set one users results over another.
The numbers are necessary to understand if the changes are good or bad. And the numbers are good for determine how drastic those changes are. And the numbers are necessary to determine if things are effective or not.
So instead of attacking the number crunchers and their efforts to help the rest of us, try to understand the information. Use it to your advantage to do what you want. And be thankful that in the end, these things go towards making the experience better for all of us.
And before you think I am a number cruncher, I don't have the time to figure out the math. And if you ask anybody who knows me, you will find out that I never do anything base on the odds. I do things based on that fact if I think it's a good or bad thing.
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
Did he respec and change his skill tree?
Does he know where to be on the map in order to kill the most number of enemies? Does he know where the enemies are going to be next and get there in the correct position to kill them?
Did he work with his team to allow him to collect all the damage points? Did his team let him make as many kills as possible?
Everyone else in the team support him with debuffs to the enemy? Was his team helping him by controlling the enemy, like with gravity well? And healing him...so he can stay alive to collect more damage points?
There is a lot more to the stuff going on in the You Tube than just "gear" and "ship". The entire team in the video work together so one person can collect all the damage points on that particular run of the mission.
I tried one time to ask HOW they set up their teams, WHAT everyone else in the teams are doing....so people would understand what was going on in the videos. But then I lost interest in that DPS stuff, so I never pushed it.
p.s...you know what? I even think IF everyone could figure out how teams are supposed to support each other in a mission, gear quality or ship levels would not even matter.
+++++++++++++++++
This thread is about changes being made to the new Skill Tree.
The Skill Tree adjusts the program to allow personal preferences in how you like to use your character in the game.
I believe skill points will make changes to the calculations made by the program, itself....not by chance, but using a new number in the status.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
and new skill tree makes characters reduced for approx a third of their currrent capabilities..
You can translate about 2/3 of the possible skill setup in current system to the new one.
I went along retaining the base weapon DPS from my current setup that is far from good by the way and i manage to do so approx. BUT i'm ending up with significantly reduced hull hp shield hp hull and shield regen. assuming that in order to keep DPS i have to keep energy levels. there is simply put not enough skill points.
Secondly current system is 10 times more flexible then the new one. First thing ppl learn about skill system is that they dont need to maximize skills. Especially higher tier ones that consume a lot of skill points. You have at lvl 50 366 000 skill points that you can allocate up to 300 000 into space skills and up to 100 000 in ground skills. Each skill is divided in 10 levels 0-9 while last 3 level apply the least amount of that particular variable to the character. So removing that last 10th lvl affects the skill quite theoreticaly and for all intentions and purposes is insignificant make a lot of spare points to allocate in other skills right? With new system you have only 3 lvls and removing top lvl in order to allocate point into somthing else leave you significantly reduced in that skill that is quite noticable in gamplay not just in parsing programs or whatever.
We now get the same thing we got with reputation treits nerf. Significant reduction and you guyt are OK with it?
Actually, I has able to translate my entire build over to the new system and got the same numbers, with points left over. Which I used to actually improve areas that I thought needed to be improved. I lost nothing and gained more than what I had before in survivability and damage.
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
Lol, seems you are an idjit. I'm guessing that made up word means some sort of super idiot.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
wynil....the fact remains that math allows us to quantify, define and compare the aspects of the game from one iteration to another. To further follow this fact, the entire game is really just a mathematical construct that can be predicted and defined because the entire construct is defined, quantified and written. Randomness in a computer program is really not 'random' but a definable mathematical equation that if you put a certain number in you will get the exact same number out. In a computer program, "chaos" or "luck" or any other word you want to use to represent an undefined quantity does not exist in a computer program. Programing can be coded in such a way it seems random within our ability to perceive the results.
With that knowledge, all these people that take the time to figure out the math behind all of the actions that being tracked is useful in spotting how the changes are affecting the game from each iteration. The math is the best way to track, define and quantify these changes because, at it's core, the game is nothing more than a mathematical equation.
As for your example of the guy copying the other guys setup, the answer is simple. Without understanding the intent of the skill choices and planned tactical usage of said setup you will not get to the same level of success. Number crunchers look to optimize the effects of the program. To optimize the program requires that you not only make the right choices of where to spend the points but also includes gear selection, talent choices, bridge officer choices, interface layout, UI interaction, tactical choices of target selection, when to fire, flight path, skill activation, and many many other things that go into the build that are not specifically defined in the build. And it's those things that set one users results over another.
The numbers are necessary to understand if the changes are good or bad. And the numbers are good for determine how drastic those changes are. And the numbers are necessary to determine if things are effective or not.
So instead of attacking the number crunchers and their efforts to help the rest of us, try to understand the information. Use it to your advantage to do what you want. And be thankful that in the end, these things go towards making the experience better for all of us.
And before you think I am a number cruncher, I don't have the time to figure out the math. And if you ask anybody who knows me, you will find out that I never do anything base on the odds. I do things based on that fact if I think it's a good or bad thing. [/quote]
if that is entirely true bugs and glitches in programs doesnt suppose to happen right?
all quantified mesured calculated determened, right?
while what u wrote is true its only partialy true. And i have no trouble understanding what u want to say i tought similary 20 year ago.
You said that you dont do thing base on odds. Let me give another example. One of my fleetmates my countryman actually was very good at making money in game and so on..never invested a single cent in game but had all the best gear EC and dill ( ZEN ) could buy. Now I've got my Wells from a lockbox. I took me 45 or 46 attempts. That guy opened more than 300 boxes and he never got any ship from any of them. How that math calculus and all that nonsense explain that? its the same program.. its the same math same quantification the only difference he is he and me is me not him. Whenever there is algorithm calculating odds WE are affecting the outcome of calcualtion.
Most ppl have truble beleiving that there is things unquantifiable in this universe. So let me give another example. we are humans we are made along the same genetic pattern..we have two legs two arms and so on..in that regard we are the same and yet again we are all and each of us unique..there are no 2 of us which are the same. And its the same thing with everything else in universe. like trees rocks grass cats planets stars galaxies. While order provides patterns and formulas and that stuff chaos randomises inside the patterns. Its a bit different explanation of Haisenberg priciple. Or how sombody put it."we live in the world in which 2 plus 2 doesnt always equals 4"
While you can use all that math to quantify what already happened you cant use it to predict what will happen..
or lets go this way..use that math you or anyone else and quantify to me a spot.its infinitly small right? so in a line 1 cm long how many spots are in it? infinity amount..same as in a line 1 mm long..or a moment of time. what it is moment of time? how long it is..do the time flow continnusly or ticks in steps? how many moments of time are there in 1 second? its all math physics sience but its unquantifiable.
anyway i dont think that you are crunching numbers because of what you wrote before . Even if you cant explain it you sense that there is somthing that isnt right in that approach
All that ive said its very easly confirmable by simple experimentation.
Odds. Lets say we play simplest game We throw coin. We have equal chances to get heads or tails right? 50/50 so mathematically and statistically we should get somthing like this. head, tail, head, tail, head, tail. right? wrong. we weil get rows like head, head, tail, head, teail tail head tail tail head head appears quite random. if we could throw that coin infinitetime we we alway have same summs of head and tails but in reality we dont have infinite time. we have limited time or resources. so lets enrich the game with 100$ on the table and 100$ for you and lets say that when u get head u take a $ when u get tail u give a $ what will happen? If you play long enough you will loose all that 100 bucks because its more likley that you belong to the unlucku 85% of human population. Summ of your negative throws wil be higher that summ of positive. But for 15% of population its other way around. Its very simple experiment. Now computers exist in the same universe as everithing else so i wonder why you guys believe that they arent affected by the same whims as everithing else? That they are somhow immune to all of this? What do you think where are those knowns as Murphys laws came from?
all of this seems like total offtopic but its actually fundamental to the topic.
Topic is new skill system and how that system will affect us when they get it flushed to holodeck.
i play STO since 2012. ive been on and off and i never took participation in any of these discussions and debates. Whatever so far devs lunched our way it was fine with me..but this new skill system..its so fundamentally wrong that i took the time to participate.
I wrote them ticket and they directed me here on this forum.
Haha yeah, I'm Scottish and we use 'eejit' on a daily basis but even I had to do a double take. I've never seen that spelling of it before.
if that is entirely true bugs and glitches in programs doesnt suppose to happen right?
all quantified mesured calculated determened, right?
while what u wrote is true its only partialy true. And i have no trouble understanding what u want to say i tought similary 20 year ago.
You said that you dont do thing base on odds. Let me give another example. One of my fleetmates my countryman actually was very good at making money in game and so on..never invested a single cent in game but had all the best gear EC and dill ( ZEN ) could buy. Now I've got my Wells from a lockbox. I took me 45 or 46 attempts. That guy opened more than 300 boxes and he never got any ship from any of them. How that math calculus and all that nonsense explain that? its the same program.. its the same math same quantification the only difference he is he and me is me not him. Whenever there is algorithm calculating odds WE are affecting the outcome of calcualtion.
Most ppl have truble beleiving that there is things unquantifiable in this universe. So let me give another example. we are humans we are made along the same genetic pattern..we have two legs two arms and so on..in that regard we are the same and yet again we are all and each of us unique..there are no 2 of us which are the same. And its the same thing with everything else in universe. like trees rocks grass cats planets stars galaxies. While order provides patterns and formulas and that stuff chaos randomises inside the patterns. Its a bit different explanation of Haisenberg priciple. Or how sombody put it."we live in the world in which 2 plus 2 doesnt always equals 4"
While you can use all that math to quantify what already happened you cant use it to predict what will happen..
or lets go this way..use that math you or anyone else and quantify to me a spot.its infinitly small right? so in a line 1 cm long how many spots are in it? infinity amount..same as in a line 1 mm long..or a moment of time. what it is moment of time? how long it is..do the time flow continnusly or ticks in steps? how many moments of time are there in 1 second? its all math physics sience but its unquantifiable.
anyway i dont think that you are crunching numbers because of what you wrote before . Even if you cant explain it you sense that there is somthing that isnt right in that approach
All that ive said its very easly confirmable by simple experimentation.
Odds. Lets say we play simplest game We throw coin. We have equal chances to get heads or tails right? 50/50 so mathematically and statistically we should get somthing like this. head, tail, head, tail, head, tail. right? wrong. we weil get rows like head, head, tail, head, teail tail head tail tail head head appears quite random. if we could throw that coin infinitetime we we alway have same summs of head and tails but in reality we dont have infinite time. we have limited time or resources. so lets enrich the game with 100$ on the table and 100$ for you and lets say that when u get head u take a $ when u get tail u give a $ what will happen? If you play long enough you will loose all that 100 bucks because its more likley that you belong to the unlucku 85% of human population. Summ of your negative throws wil be higher that summ of positive. But for 15% of population its other way around. Its very simple experiment. Now computers exist in the same universe as everithing else so i wonder why you guys believe that they arent affected by the same whims as everithing else? That they are somhow immune to all of this? What do you think where are those knowns as Murphys laws came from?
all of this seems like total offtopic but its actually fundamental to the topic.
Topic is new skill system and how that system will affect us when they get it flushed to holodeck.
i play STO since 2012. ive been on and off and i never took participation in any of these discussions and debates. Whatever so far devs lunched our way it was fine with me..but this new skill system..its so fundamentally wrong that i took the time to participate.
I wrote them ticket and they directed me here on this forum.
[/quote]
Bugs and glitches in programs are nothing more than the failure on the coders part to account for what they wrote will do. The more complicated the system, the easier it is to make this mistake. And the harder it is to correct. Nothing random or "chaotic" about it. If a person wrote the code exactly like the first coder, they will get the same results.
As for what happened between you and your friend, you failed to account for the input source that was used to create the "so-called" random number that was used to create the final results. If you were on his system and tried the to open the same box as him, your results would be exactly the same. You or him are not the variables. The input source or "seed" is the variable that sets it all in motion. And that seed will be different from person to person unless every factor is exactly the same.
Simple experimentation can only give you the most simplistic of data models to work with. The more complicated the data your are trying to track, the more complicated your experimentation has to be to reach 100% accuracy as you attempt to account for each variable that is defined in the system.
In a program, I most assuredly can predict an outcome because all I have to do is control all of the inputs. In a testing environment I can directly replace the source with my own numbers to see what that particular set of variables will garner as a net result. There is no unknown quantity in this.
With flipping a coin, I can't predict because it is not a mathematical construct but an actual physical object. Real world objects are subject to the variable "chaos" because it's not a mathematical construct on a machine. It can't be predicted or anticipated. And only the past is quantifiable in the case of reality as we perceive it. The future is an unknown, unquantifiable and therefore undefinable with the capabilities of our ability to perceive it.
This game is a very complex and complicated mathematical construct. And as such, I doubt that it's even possible for humans to completely memorize, recall and comprehend the entirety of it on the level that any programmer would be able to write code in such a fashion as to not create bugs or glitches. The best that be expected that any bugs or glitches would be minimized from obvious missteps and only the weird interactions or unusual results would happen. And with sufficient testing, the majority of possible combinations would be vetted. But in the end they will not be able to catch them all because of the complex nature of the mathematical construct. And there is always the chance that the complexity of the construct may be such that there are some interactions they may never be able to "fixed" because of the side effects the "fix" may generate. All of which are quantifiable and reproducible.
The game is not like real life, it can be manipulates and predicted. Real life is not the game because it's not a mathematical construct. You can't use the one to prove a point in the other. Or even use it to model the possibilities of it's end reactions.
And yes, this is relevant because we are talking about we can provide feedback in an effective and useful manner. In the case of this game, hard numbers will generate better results in proving points than general observations.
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
Eye on the prize, please.
Focusing on the problem, or even commenting on it, only serves to emphasize it and reinforce it. Ignore it, and respond only to the positive/constructive comments, and things just might improve.
And to confirm another point... I think we will be starting a new "v3" thread with the next build, as this one seems to have run its course.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
Right now with maxing out all the power increasing skill and come short 2 power for each system, which would probably come from by joined trill race traits and chosen traits + boff traits.
Would be a shame if this got somehow axed because there was quite a bit effort/money spent to get those.
There is no math or chance involved with filling out the Skill Tree board.
Just matching the numbers between Holodeck and Tribble.
At least, that is how I been doing it.
I took my notes of the numbers in the status on Holodeck (and made a spreadsheet and printed it out so I can follow along on paper, even). I picked points in Tribble until the status numbers came close to matching....that became my "basic" skill tree.
You don't even have to look at the status page on Tribble because they wrote the numbers all down in the skill tree information.
After that, I had several skill points left over I could move around. And I been playing with those "extra" points figuring out which new skill I want to put them....or if I wanted more or less in something else.
And over the course of the month, I just watched for adjustments made on the program to see if it changed anything from the original "set up".
But no math, no chances....just compare numbers. And test new set ups from that.
Believe me, if there was math and calculations involved, I would be totally lost.
P.S. the only character I am having problems converting over is the Ferengi where I placed 5 points in quite a few old skills...and did not stick with the 3-6-9 "standard" cut offs.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Exactly. I see same thing with Overwhelming Force (Drain infection don't work on Charged Particle Burst and Control Amplification don't work on Photonic Shockwave) and Viral Torpedo (Control Amplification don't work, and on top of that, this trait don't take any duration bonus from Control Expertise).
I'm not sure if Overwhelming Force was meant to proc those. A few months back, Overwhelming Force did not seem to proc the relevant prcs from my Deflector. Maybe this acts the same (procs only from BOffs and console clickies)?
| USS Curiosity - Pathfinder | USS Rift - Eternal |
The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
This is probably more a PvP than a PvE thing - NPCs generally don't have extra shield ignoring abilities.
Maybe that is something to look into.
If in the skill tree itself, maybe then in the Shield Mastery skill? Maybe "Shield Mastery" could also temporarily generate immunity to bleedthrough (for 1-2 seconds or so).
If not in the skill tree itself, then at least in terms of traits, bridge officer skills or sets.