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Official Feedback Thread for Skill Revamp (v2.0!)

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    borticuscrypticborticuscryptic Member Posts: 2,478 Cryptic Developer
    edited March 2016
    where2r1 wrote: »
    I do not understand this answer.

    Only know of "Promotions", "Traits", "Abilities" and colors on BOFFs....I have never heard of BOFFs having levels on a skill tree with their own Kit Performance Skill.

    Your boffs' level matches your own. When you hit level 37, so do they.

    They gain Skills passively, without needing to invest in a tree. These passive Skill gains are earned at a rate of +1 per Level.

    So, when you hit level 37, your Boffs gain +1 in most Skills. This includes Kit Proficiency, which brings them to (at that point) +37 total.
    Jeremy Randall
    Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
    "Play smart!"
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    where2r1where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    where2r1 wrote: »
    I do not understand this answer.

    Only know of "Promotions", "Traits", "Abilities" and colors on BOFFs....I have never heard of BOFFs having levels on a skill tree with their own Kit Performance Skill.

    Your boffs' level matches your own. When you hit level 37, so do they.

    They gain Skills passively, without needing to invest in a tree. These passive Skill gains are earned at a rate of +1 per Level.

    So, when you hit level 37, your Boffs gain +1 in most Skills. This includes Kit Proficiency, which brings them to (at that point) +37 total.

    Thanks, Borticus, especially for responding on a weekend! I think I got it.
    And a thanks to mustrumridcully0, too.

    I was modifying my last post while you were typing this post up.
    http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/comment/12877202/#Comment_12877202
    "Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK

    “Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
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    legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,280 Arc User
    a weekend? today is monday - that's a weekday​​
    Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

    #LegalizeAwoo

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    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


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    nikeixnikeix Member Posts: 3,972 Arc User
    a weekend? today is monday - that's a weekday​​

    I consider "Diving onto the boards first thing Monday morning" to actually be more impressive. It means he's probably actually got a block set aside for looking at our feedback on company time.
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    mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    A bit of a drawback from the testing on Tribble is that you won't reach actual new players.

    I almost bet that a lot of new player will be worried on how the can unlock their "ultimate" ability, and think it's very important to do...
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
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    where2r1where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    edited March 2016
    A bit of a drawback from the testing on Tribble is that you won't reach actual new players.

    I almost bet that a lot of new player will be worried on how the can unlock their "ultimate" ability, and think it's very important to do...

    There should be no reason for anyone to have to distract points from the foundation of their characters.

    Yeah, I think it may be a mistake veering the skill tree toward gimmick-y "traits" (I guess that is what they are ????). I think the "Skill Tree" should be the basic building block. The base for all characters.

    And from THERE bring in unique via abilities, gear, specialization, traits and ship choices....whether paid for or freebies. AND THERE are sooooo many choices with all of those, already (rep, fleet, crafting and all those new mods) ... even I am getting lost with all the stuff coming out and have not bothered keeping up with it.

    I have no idea if a new player could even see everything. Or see how it could go together. They would probably just ask: "what is the best?", use that, and forget about the rest. No experimentation.

    And I think that is already happening in the game.
    "Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK

    “Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
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    samt1996samt1996 Member Posts: 2,856 Arc User
    edited March 2016
    Hey borticus how does the science ultimate "set critical chance to 50%" interact with Particle Manipulator? That will be the deciding factor of whether or not I like it.

    If it does not stack with it then it actually is terrible to use because when combined with normal crit chance I have around +70% or so on my exotic damage builds and activating it I would lose 20%... so yeah.

    Also how would it react with other things that don't boost base crit chance like Surgical Strikes and several starship traits? (tactical flagship for one)
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    borticuscrypticborticuscryptic Member Posts: 2,478 Cryptic Developer
    edited March 2016
    The Sci Ultimate is currently built to set your Crit Chance to 50%, for all sources of damage. No other bonuses apply, while it is active.

    Probably worth noting that Crit Severity bonuses still apply...
    Jeremy Randall
    Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
    "Play smart!"
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    markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    mochong wrote: »
    I really hope this new system doesn't make my training alts obsolete. I spent ZEN just to buy additional slots for them, and to not be able to train everything with them would be very disappointing.
    You could spec your mains for the skills you want for combat, then spec your alts for the skills your mains can't train.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
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    markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    where2r1 wrote: »
    I do not understand this answer.

    Only know of "Promotions", "Traits", "Abilities" and colors on BOFFs....I have never heard of BOFFs having levels on a skill tree with their own Kit Performance Skill.

    Your boffs' level matches your own. When you hit level 37, so do they.

    They gain Skills passively, without needing to invest in a tree. These passive Skill gains are earned at a rate of +1 per Level.

    So, when you hit level 37, your Boffs gain +1 in most Skills. This includes Kit Proficiency, which brings them to (at that point) +37 total.
    Sounds useful to know. How many different skills do Boffs get this way? Or is it all of them?
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
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    mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    Here's one piece of feedback I forget giving all the time:

    Unlock Bar Progression needs to be clearer.
    The skill unlock bar (especially for space) should show how many points you need for each unlock. Either at the bar itself (make a small vertical line or something at every point), or in the text description of each unlock choice.
    That will also mitigate the drawbacks of not having that "skillcart" feature.

    To me this is one of the things that I always ended up trying to optimize when picking my skills, even if I wasn't after an ultimate unlock - just to ensure that I can get one extra unlock, instead of having a few bars stopping short before a new unlock becomes available. And just by eye estimation, I often get it wrong.

    The Spec system's unlock bar has a similar problem in theory, but in practice it's irrelevant there because you always end unlocking everything anyway. For the skill system it's important.
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
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    samt1996samt1996 Member Posts: 2,856 Arc User
    edited March 2016
    So let me clarify just for the record please: say my current build has particle manipulator (assuming of course I have already maxed it out to its 50% bonus) and I also have a normal base critical chance of 15% I therefore have a total critical chance on my science powers of 65%.

    Now, I activate the science ultimate and my critical chance is set to 50% which means I lose effectiveness to all my science powers?

    I'll just leave this here: https://youtu.be/vGyetUH07tg

    Seriously though please reduce its effect and let it stack, even better make it have separate effects for weapons and science powers.
    Post edited by samt1996 on
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    gerwalk0769gerwalk0769 Member Posts: 1,095 Arc User
    edited March 2016
    Is there anyway to link the profession tier choices to player investments/skill choices?

    I did not invest in any Energy Weapon skills but I'm being asked to choose between Energy Weapon Crit H or Crit D on the Tac tier II career choice. Being given that option based on my choices came off as odd.

    I'd actually like another choice, something not energy weapon related as I did not invest in them, choosing either would be a wasted opportunity for me. Thanks for considering this.

    Joined STO in September 2010.
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    borticuscrypticborticuscryptic Member Posts: 2,478 Cryptic Developer
    What if the Science Ultimate was intended as an alternative to Particle Manipulator?

    There are reasons this ability was built the way it was. Not the least of which is stacking concerns. It can't both be small enough to allow stacking AND strong enough to warrant its position as an Ultimate, if all it does is improve critical hits.
    Jeremy Randall
    Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
    "Play smart!"
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    samt1996samt1996 Member Posts: 2,856 Arc User
    edited March 2016
    You make a good point which is why i suggested having it affect science powers and weapons differently. It works great for DPS builds but for science builds (let's face it most people run exotic builds) it actually damages us which is kind of silly.

    While it is possible it could be a partial alternative to particle manipuator I would point out Ultimates are something you will be stuck with for a long time and so should be relatively versatile. Also they have a short uptime and Particle Manipulator is easy to obtain and slot for all players. So while I kind of see your point the only people the ultimate would serve a purpose for as a replacement would be new player that haven't leveled R@D yet which leaves the rest of us out in the cold. Mathematically and logically that makes no sense.

    If it did the same thing as now but set science powers crit chance to say +80 I could see myself using it but even that isn't much higher than what I can get already. I'd say a flat bonus of +20 to all science powers would make me want it.
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    nikeixnikeix Member Posts: 3,972 Arc User
    I'm actually more terrified to discover that while I'm scratching and biting to build [crtH] one or two % at a time and sometimes only on a single weapon on most of my captains there's a SINGLE TRAIT out there that gives +50% crit to anything?!? Much less an entire category of offensive powers...
    Gain .2% Critical Chance and .1% Critical Severity for Exotic Damage abilities, per point you have in the Starship Particle Generators skill.

    The Critical Chance bonus gained from this Trait is capped at +50% (attained by having 250 Particle Generators skill), but there is no cap on the Critical Severity bonus.

    Holy snot, I need to go rearrange a couple of my characters!
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    samt1996samt1996 Member Posts: 2,856 Arc User
    edited March 2016
    It used to give 100% bonus, lol

    That single trait is why science is making a comeback, everything else is just icing.
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    gerwalk0769gerwalk0769 Member Posts: 1,095 Arc User
    edited March 2016
    I'm listening to the livestream and heard Borticus's comment about substituting/finding a new skill if Energy and Projectile Weapon skills were combined given the timeline of release among other factors. Given Bort's ideas of how Tactical in Star Trek (directing the flow of battle) should be handled more as Command, I suggest creating a Tactician skill to replace one of the lost (If Energy and Projectile weapons skills were combined) weapon skills slots.

    Quite simply (hopefully) the investor receives a bonus if an additional player/NPC fires on the same target (Starships are coordinating attacks: the Tactician is suggesting targets, attack patterns, etc.). The targets defense could be slightly reduced, the tactician could receive an accuracy boost, or whatever appropriate buff or debuff.

    In turn, the tactician skill could replace the second Tactical passive buff (currently Energy Weapon Crit H or Crit D).

    This broadens choice options for players and helps allow players to make choices that benefit their builds instead of being forced to choose among passive boosts, Projectile Weapon Crits and Energy Weapon Crits, that they to not want, especially if they do not want to run either Torpedoes or Energy Weapons.
    Joined STO in September 2010.
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    keletteskelettes Member Posts: 488 Arc User
    edited March 2016
    I'm listening to the livestream and heard Borticus's comment about substituting/finding a new skill if Energy and Projectile Weapon skills were combined given the timeline of release among other factors. Given Bort's ideas of how Tactical in Star Trek (directing the flow of battle) should be handled more as Command, I suggest creating a Tactician skill to replace one of the lost (If Energy and Projectile weapons skills were combined) weapon skills slots.

    Quite simply (hopefully) the investor receives a bonus if an additional player/NPC fires on the same target (Starships are coordinating attacks: the Tactician is suggesting targets, attack patterns, etc.). The targets defense could be slightly reduced, the tactician could receive an accuracy boost, or whatever appropriate buff or debuff.

    In turn, the tactician skill could replace the second Tactical passive buff (currently Energy Weapon Crit H or Crit D).

    This broadens choice options for players and helps allow players to make choices that benefit their builds instead of being forced to choose among passive boosts, Projectile Weapon Crits and Energy Weapon Crits, that they to not want, especially if they do not want to run either Torpedoes or Energy Weapons.

    Interesting...

    I'm okay with the torpedoes and energy guns having their separate set of nodes :smile: But the above comment got me thinking, thus the following brainstorm. Not even sure if some of the "coined" mechanics could be implemented @ this point (no idea how close we are to release :S), or how much it would upset the balance of the whole thing. Pick w/e combination of ideas (or none at all), w/e fits the already existing system best. :smile:

    [RandomBrainstorm]
    • How about something that improves an ability that tactical captains have? I'm talking about Fire On My Mark. The accuracy boost could fit nicely :smile:
    • What if the character could share its attack patterns with its team? A weaker version maybe.
    • Or we could add something to tactical team -- minor shield heal and/or shield regen and/or duration bonuses distributed over the three nodes? Maybe an option to make it team-wide?
    [/RandomBrainstorm]

    edit:
    Thinking it over, not sure if Fire On My Mark is a good example. The skill tree focuses on flexibility, but this would add a dead end for non-tac characters. Ignore that. :/ No-go.

    Plus, we'd have to come up with something for the ground version too.

    edit2:
    Thinking it over again, the things I listed are either exclusive to tactical characters, or are only focusing on a very few abilities instead of improving overall space performance like the rest of the nodes do. Never mind me, just "thinking out loud" here. ^^''
    Post edited by kelettes on
    "Ad astra audacter eamus in alis fidelium."
    -
    "To boldly go to the stars on the wings of the faithful."
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    jalificationjalification Member Posts: 13 Arc User
    Last time I checked the Research Science Vessel Retrofit http://sto.gamepedia.com/Research_Science_Vessel_Retrofit
    had an inherent bonus of +50 crew. Crew is getting removed... so will this ship still get some needed love (maybe bonus to healing?) or is the bonus just simply ignored and the ship stays the way it is.

    And for those who wonder, my alt is a medic/healer... this ship fits the role/roleplay (and I don't think it is that ugly, ugly can be beauty sometimes too)
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    gerwalk0769gerwalk0769 Member Posts: 1,095 Arc User
    Question please: When converting a character from Holodeck to Tribble would 99 Holodeck skill points equal +100 skill on tribble? I understand that this ratio would not hold for expensive skill costs like Subspace Decompiler.

    I'm trying to first replicate my character to see how many extra skill points I have to use, thanks.
    Joined STO in September 2010.
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    lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited March 2016
    samt1996 wrote: »
    You make a good point which is why i suggested having it affect science powers and weapons differently. It works great for DPS builds but for science builds (let's face it most people run exotic builds) it actually damages us which is kind of silly.

    While it is possible it could be a partial alternative to particle manipuator I would point out Ultimates are something you will be stuck with for a long time and so should be relatively versatile. Also they have a short uptime and Particle Manipulator is easy to obtain and slot for all players. So while I kind of see your point the only people the ultimate would serve a purpose for as a replacement would be new player that haven't leveled R@D yet which leaves the rest of us out in the cold. Mathematically and logically that makes no sense.

    If it did the same thing as now but set science powers crit chance to say +80 I could see myself using it but even that isn't much higher than what I can get already. I'd say a flat bonus of +20 to all science powers would make me want it.

    Lol, I'm with Borticus on this one. PvP land became TBR + FBP + ISO Cannon hell once particle manipulator appeared. At 50% crit chance, it will hit hard as heck anyway, and if you run all [CrtD] weapons and consoles on a science toon, it will probably rip everything to shreads when that ability is up with FAW.

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    nikeixnikeix Member Posts: 3,972 Arc User
    Question please: When converting a character from Holodeck to Tribble would 99 Holodeck skill points equal +100 skill on tribble? I understand that this ratio would not hold for expensive skill costs like Subspace Decompiler.

    I'm trying to first replicate my character to see how many extra skill points I have to use, thanks.

    For the most part yes.

    A couple of skills merged. Drain and drain resistance become a dual function Drain Expertise. Same with Control and Control resistance becoming Control Expertise. Attack pattern bonuses and Driver coil are now effectively 100 for everybody without spending skill points into them.

    Shields got a little softer base but 1 point of shield hardness puts you above Holodeck, and beams got a little more damage drop off over range, but again 1 point restores Holodeck values.

    The ratio holds for "expensive skills" under the new system, but like the old system you may have to wait many levels before being able to spend your skill points on something because of the way they are grouped into tiers.
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    samt1996samt1996 Member Posts: 2,856 Arc User
    edited March 2016
    Yes but I don't want to use weapons I want to use science powers and I just find it silly that the ability will actually nerf me while it is active. I think that is a new one for this game.

    It doesn't need to do anything to science powers at all if that's what he wants I just don't want to lose effectiveness by using it.

    BTW I'm testing the ultimates and working up some preliminary ides for reworking them slightly to be versatile and useful for all builds and play styles. The engineering one is already being discussed and there are some good ideas for it to be replaced with while science and tactical mostly just need tweaking. Science should offer some bonuses to science playstyles for example.
    Post edited by samt1996 on
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    ussinterceptussintercept Member Posts: 627 Arc User
    where2r1 wrote: »
    A bit of a drawback from the testing on Tribble is that you won't reach actual new players.

    I almost bet that a lot of new player will be worried on how the can unlock their "ultimate" ability, and think it's very important to do...

    There should be no reason for anyone to have to distract points from the foundation of their characters.

    Yeah, I think it may be a mistake veering the skill tree toward gimmick-y "traits" (I guess that is what they are ????). I think the "Skill Tree" should be the basic building block. The base for all characters.

    And from THERE bring in unique via abilities, gear, specialization, traits and ship choices....whether paid for or freebies. AND THERE are sooooo many choices with all of those, already (rep, fleet, crafting and all those new mods) ... even I am getting lost with all the stuff coming out and have not bothered keeping up with it.

    I have no idea if a new player could even see everything. Or see how it could go together. They would probably just ask: "what is the best?", use that, and forget about the rest. No experimentation.

    And I think that is already happening in the game.

    Its all about making money. Just like the Crafting Revamp. This is another one of those PWE telling Cryptic to find ways to improve the sales of XYZ.

    With the current setup of Skill Tree Management. Its been out for 4 years now and the vast majority of players have it figured out enough that word quickly and easily spreads to newbies as they flow into the game and into Fleets. With this new system. Everyone, except those who took part in the Testing or was keeping tabs on someone doing the Testing, will be left scratching their heads as to what they should do with their skill points. And because of the new 'lock it in at every skill point' design philosophy. A lot of old and new players are going to trip themselves up with that alone. Add in new players coming into the game and seeing the 'Ultimates' and assuming that they actually ARE ultimate abilities that will be MUST HAVEs at end game. And youre going to have a lot of people chasing red herrings. Even with a sales event for the Respec Tokens. Cryptic is going to see an uptick in sales. A cheaper price is just going to make the sale of that item look that much more appealing to anyone thinking 'I might as well get a few now just in case I TRIBBLE it up'. Youre going to need a Respec Token every time you make a poor choice of skill point placement.

    This whole thing is about improving the monetization of that aspect of the game.
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    samt1996samt1996 Member Posts: 2,856 Arc User
    edited March 2016
    Is it tin-foil hat time again already? I used the rest of my foil up last night at the Trump rally... Damn.
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    where2r1where2r1 Member Posts: 6,054 Arc User
    edited March 2016
    This whole thing is about improving the monetization of that aspect of the game.

    OH, goodness no, that is not it at all.

    After reading the previous exchange between Borticus and Samt1996, I understand that there NEEDS to be these "Ultimate" skills in the tree exactly for people like Samt (and all those people who are well advanced). It is not "gimmick-y" for someone who is well beyond the "basics" in this game, already....they need a challenge, too.

    And, yet, this skill tree still works for someone like me, who need the basics.

    "Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK

    “Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
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    samt1996samt1996 Member Posts: 2,856 Arc User
    I'll try that thanks :D
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    meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    lucho80 wrote: »
    Lol, I'm with Borticus on this one. PvP land became TBR + FBP + ISO Cannon hell once particle manipulator appeared. At 50% crit chance, it will hit hard as heck anyway, and if you run all [CrtD] weapons and consoles on a science toon, it will probably rip everything to shreads when that ability is up with FAW.

    Lol, I'm with myself on this one: PvP should *never* determine what happens in this game. Good thing ppl occassionlly come out and admit it does, though.
    3lsZz0w.jpg
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