Drain builds have been gutted. Energy Siphon has also been nuked.
Just some numbers to wrap your head around:
Holodeck: Max FlowCap skill + fleet buffs = 2.1 power per stack of PlasLeech
Tribble: Max DrainX skill + fleet buffs + 3x Embassy FlowCap Consoles MK14 Epic = 2.1 power per stack of PlasLeech
So now you need 3 flowcap consoles (basically the minimum you need to spec into drain builds) is required to EQUAL what you had before without any consoles.
Drain is not getting gutted. As a pure drainer, I see nothing but a buff to my drain build.
Perhaps people should stop trying to drain with just the siphon and the leech
"Frankly, not sure why you're on a one man nerf campaign. "
Perhaps people should stop trying to drain with just the siphon and the leech
While I'm not a drain specialist by the least, my memory says that if you add Tykens, Target Subsystem (for targeted subsystem drains) and are running a full slate of polaron weapons with the Leech and Syphon, you have a "drain" build...
So, having what, 40% of a build testing out as "nerfed" does not bode well for "this is still an effective build" - however, if the goal is to "force" more Tykens use (like they're giving low=end sci a buff at the cost of high-end)...
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
So, I just imported all my characters to Tribble to see what their current stats are with the new skill system revamp, and I'm now very agitated by what I saw...
With max points in the new "Drain Expertise" skill, and two Mk XIV UR Embassy Drain Expertise consoles (171.2 Drain Expertise) on Tribble my Plasmonic Leech was getting 1.9 drain per hit with weapons. With the same setup on Holodeck now (170.2 Flow Capacitors) I can get 2.7 drain per hit with weapons. In total that's about a 30% reduction in effectiveness between servers.
For a more stripped-down approach, if you took those Embassy consoles out and only maxed out Flow Capacitors on Holodeck, you'd boost Plasmonic Leech's base effectiveness from 1 drain per hit to 2 drain per hit. Now if you max out "Drain Expertise" you boost its base effectiveness from 1 drain per hit to 1.5 drain per hit. Numbers aside, my only real question is: WHY?
It would've been an easier pill to swallow if it had actually been announced in some patch notes or talked about, but since everything official I've read about the skill revamp has said stats are a 1:1 conversion I figured nothing would have changed, but boy was I wrong. Communication is a nice thing to have between game developers and gamers, but I feel like the mark is missed with STO more often than I would like. People, including me, have spent hundreds of millions of EC and maybe even some Dilithium or real-world money on obtaining these Plasmonic Leeches, and to suddenly have its effectiveness reduced by 30% without being told is not okay.
The last time an MMO I played made such drastic changes to a game's core system like this it didn't go over well with a lot of people and eventually I and many others lost interest in that game entirely. I REALLY don't want that to be the case with STO, because I truly love this game, but if I can't get solid information about changes that are being made and how they affect my characters it's going to leave a sour taste in my mouth. I understand that this is a work-in-progress, but a little blurb about it in the patch notes isn't much to ask for unless the goal was to keep it under wraps and hope nobody would notice.
I am going to say that if this is a concern, then this issue should be posted in the Tribble sub-forum since that is where the developers asked all bug reports to be posted.
Sure posting it in the general discussion thread will get more views. But it can also spread unwarranted fear and uncertainty since things implement on the Tribble server is a work in progress and there is bound to issues when compared to Holodeck. Especially when implementing a revised skill tree which will likely need a lot of tweaking.
I don't think people need to go into panic / hysteria mode unless the developers publicly state that everything on Tribble has been finalized and will go live on Holodeck, yet the bugs still persists.
==========================================
On a slightly separate topic, can someone provide me with detailed instructions on how I can gain access to the Tribble server and how I can copy my current toons onto the Tribble server? I was thinking about going onto Tribble last weekend to do some testing, but I was in the middle of collecting omega particles.
You don't need to look at the patch notes to be able to do testing of your own and compare the raw data you get between Tribble and Holodeck. In fact, because this wasn't in the patch notes it's either an unintended side-effect of something or it's intentional and the hope was that nobody would notice.
You do know patch notes don't have everything. Both plasmonic leech and energy siphon got cut down the exact same way, division by 2 on the slope from Holodeck.
Alot of people on live typically run maxed out flow caps and maxed out insulators anyways. Under the new skill trees if you go for drain expertise, people are getting the equivalent of flow caps AND insulators from one skill now. so it's no different than if you had flow caps and insulators maxed out now. Under the new system you will still be able to drain people and drain certain things. Now in pvp you may find that the leech and siphon isn't as effective as before perhaps as you'll have to contend with extra insulators but you can still do a nasty drain.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
Alot of people on live typically run maxed out flow caps and maxed out insulators anyways. Under the new skill trees if you go for drain expertise, people are getting the equivalent of flow caps AND insulators from one skill now. so it's no different than if you had flow caps and insulators maxed out now. Under the new system you will still be able to drain people and drain certain things. Now in pvp you may find that the leech and siphon isn't as effective as before perhaps as you'll have to contend with extra insulators but you can still do a nasty drain.
Except it is different, and that's exactly what this whole thread is about. If maxing out Drain Expertise on Tribble is supposed to be the equivalent to maxing out Flow Capacitors on Holodeck, then why am I seeing a 30% reduction in drain capababilities between the two, with the exact same amount of points invested in both skills?
Also, considering that everybody is going to have relatively high drain resistances now due to how the Drain Expertise skill functions, wouldn't it make sense to make drain skills slightly more powerful instead of weaker to counter the increased resistances that everyone will be walking around with now?
Alot of people on live typically run maxed out flow caps and maxed out insulators anyways. Under the new skill trees if you go for drain expertise, people are getting the equivalent of flow caps AND insulators from one skill now. so it's no different than if you had flow caps and insulators maxed out now. Under the new system you will still be able to drain people and drain certain things. Now in pvp you may find that the leech and siphon isn't as effective as before perhaps as you'll have to contend with extra insulators but you can still do a nasty drain.
Except it is different, and that's exactly what this whole thread is about. If maxing out Drain Expertise on Tribble is supposed to be the equivalent to maxing out Flow Capacitors on Holodeck, then why am I seeing a 30% reduction in drain capababilities between the two, with the exact same amount of points invested in both skills?
Also, considering that everybody is going to have relatively high drain resistances now due to how the Drain Expertise skill functions, wouldn't it make sense to make drain skills slightly more powerful instead of weaker to counter the increased resistances that everyone will be walking around with now?
Your not seeing a 30% drop off of drain
"Frankly, not sure why you're on a one man nerf campaign. "
I find this massively entertaining. So leech, which is *not* a core mechanic (it's a special uni console from a mid-tier KDF ship that was released via lockbox to Feds) but was so overpowered that *every* DPS build had to have one, has been changed from an outlier of excessive proportions (the most powerful console in the game, by far) to something that's just on the powerful end of normal.
About time.
This is also a nice step in making cannon-scorts more competitive with FAW-boats, due to their superiour power consumption mechanics.
Perhaps to mitigate the loss of drain from some of the other builds, which, admittedly does seem to harm drain builds, they'll reduce the overall drain resistance on NPCs. I could see that being a fair tradeoff.
How will that help when Cruisers have tons of weapon power reducing options, and the leech reduction will hit Escorts too?
Except it is different, and that's exactly what this whole thread is about. If maxing out Drain Expertise on Tribble is supposed to be the equivalent to maxing out Flow Capacitors on Holodeck, then why am I seeing a 30% reduction in drain capababilities between the two, with the exact same amount of points invested in both skills?
Also, considering that everybody is going to have relatively high drain resistances now due to how the Drain Expertise skill functions, wouldn't it make sense to make drain skills slightly more powerful instead of weaker to counter the increased resistances that everyone will be walking around with now?
I've been trying to make that point, but it falls on deaf ears.
At this point, I'd hardly call it a "Stealth Nerf" as it's well documented on a few post already.
That said, this is interesting to say the least. I'd like to know the thinking behind it, or is it a mistake? I find it very hard to believe this is by design.
Retired. I'm now in search for that perfect space anomaly.
At this point, I'd hardly call it a "Stealth Nerf" as it's well documented on a few post already.
That said, this is interesting to say the least. I'd like to know the thinking behind it, or is it a mistake? I find it very hard to believe this is by design.
This is the leech is a console for drain builds. Tacts with low FC have been abusing this console for a long time now. They have corrected this issue
"Frankly, not sure why you're on a one man nerf campaign. "
At this point, I'd hardly call it a "Stealth Nerf" as it's well documented on a few post already.
That said, this is interesting to say the least. I'd like to know the thinking behind it, or is it a mistake? I find it very hard to believe this is by design.
Borticus said he was "normalizing" things. He suggested someone provide new base numbers (Zero skill number) so they work as before. I went ahead and did it.
LOL, did you wave your hand at your monitor when you typed that, too?
A drop from 2.7 drain per hit to 1.9 drain per hit with the same exact gear setup is a 30% dropoff in drain, whether you want to believe it or not.
In case you need the math: 1.9 / 2.7 = .7037037037... = 70.37%
So the Plasmonic Leech is now functioning on Tribble at basically 70% of the effectiveness it has on Holodeck, hence a 30% reduction in drain strength.
At this point, I'd hardly call it a "Stealth Nerf" as it's well documented on a few post already.
That said, this is interesting to say the least. I'd like to know the thinking behind it, or is it a mistake? I find it very hard to believe this is by design.
Borticus said he was "normalizing" things. He suggested someone provide new base numbers (Zero skill number) so they work as before. I went ahead and did it.
Oooohhh, "normalizing", that's a new word for it...
LOL, did you wave your hand at your monitor when you typed that, too?
A drop from 2.7 drain per hit to 1.9 drain per hit with the same exact gear setup is a 30% dropoff in drain, whether you want to believe it or not.
In case you need the math: 1.9 / 2.7 = .7037037037... = 70.37%
So the Plasmonic Leech is now functioning on Tribble at basically 70% of the effectiveness it has on Holodeck, hence a 30% reduction in drain strength.
The leech alone is not what makes the drain.
Really, have you learned how to drain? If you are running only the siphon and leech to drain then you simply dont understand drain.
My drain build is excalty the same on tribble as holodeck, even with the lower siphon and leech.
"Frankly, not sure why you're on a one man nerf campaign. "
At this point, I'd hardly call it a "Stealth Nerf" as it's well documented on a few post already.
That said, this is interesting to say the least. I'd like to know the thinking behind it, or is it a mistake? I find it very hard to believe this is by design.
By "stealth nerf" I meant it was a change made to the way the Plasmonic Leech functions without being mentioned in any patch notes. So it was basically a change that was made without directly telling us that it was being made.
Unless of course this is an unexpected oversight, hence why the title of this thread is "Plasmonic Leech Stealth Nerf?", with a question mark, because it is currently unknown what the cause is. The devs have not said anything about it yet, but I'm calling it like I see it at the moment.
At this point, I'd hardly call it a "Stealth Nerf" as it's well documented on a few post already.
That said, this is interesting to say the least. I'd like to know the thinking behind it, or is it a mistake? I find it very hard to believe this is by design.
Borticus said he was "normalizing" things. He suggested someone provide new base numbers (Zero skill number) so they work as before. I went ahead and did it.
That's cool, hopefully something comes of it, but one question, why are you or anyone else for that manner providing new base numbers? I mean no disrespect, but I find it extremely interesting that a developer or developers need numbers provided to them from players or even testers.
Retired. I'm now in search for that perfect space anomaly.
At this point, I'd hardly call it a "Stealth Nerf" as it's well documented on a few post already.
That said, this is interesting to say the least. I'd like to know the thinking behind it, or is it a mistake? I find it very hard to believe this is by design.
By "stealth nerf" I meant it was a change made to the way the Plasmonic Leech functions without being mentioned in any patch notes. So it was basically a change that was made without directly telling us that it was being made.
Unless of course this is an unexpected oversight, hence why the title of this thread is "Plasmonic Leech Stealth Nerf?", with a question mark, because it is currently unknown what the cause is. The devs have not said anything about it yet, but I'm calling it like I see it at the moment.
I see, I misunderstood what you meant.
I'm sure there are plenty more 'stealth nerf/buffs' we don't know about yet.
Retired. I'm now in search for that perfect space anomaly.
Really, have you learned how to drain? If you are running only the siphon and leech to drain then you simply dont understand drain.
My drain build is excalty the same on tribble as holodeck, even with the lower siphon and leech.
I'm not even talking about drain builds specifically, I'm talking about the way Plasmonic Leech functions for everyone and with every build.
Full-on drain builds, as @lucho80 has consistently pointed out, ARE seeing a reduction in effectiveness for all abilities, and it's not entirely because of the current aux power scaling bug. I'm glad your build is unaffected, but you're probably the only naysayer I've seen saying "drain builds" are fine, compared to the many other and arguably more reputable people on these forums that have been saying exactly the opposite.
The primary issue I have with this right now, is that the 1:1 stat translation we were told about from Cryptic is simply not true, because, as I've said many times before, 100 Drain Expertise =/= 100 Flow Capacitors. The skills did not translate correctly, because all drain abilities are being affected, the Plasmonic Leech being one of them. So either this was an unintentional oversight or the stats behind these abilities were tweaked behind the scenes and we weren't informed about it.
Also, the Plasmonic Leech isn't exclusively a drain build console. It doesn't say that anywhere on the console's tooltip, and it's not restricted to ships that are running a full set of Polaron weaponry, Energy Siphon, and/or Tachyon Beam. Hell, for the KDF the console comes from a Destroyer-type vessel, obviously not an optimal ship for a drain build.
Get used to it guys! Science has always been the Red-headed Stepchild in STO we get the Nerf Hammer more frequently than any other class (God forbid Tacs get a Nerf) I think this marks the 4th Science Nerf now. Gonna be interesting to see the final value when it comes out on Holo deck Servers cause my copied character has received about a 23% reduction in damage taking me from 53k dps on a full exotic build to 41k which is a pretty hefty nerf.
Yep they are hitting anything and everything science related with the nerf bat.
Perhaps people should stop trying to drain with just the siphon and the leech
While I'm not a drain specialist by the least, my memory says that if you add Tykens, Target Subsystem (for targeted subsystem drains) and are running a full slate of polaron weapons with the Leech and Syphon, you have a "drain" build...
So, having what, 40% of a build testing out as "nerfed" does not bode well for "this is still an effective build" - however, if the goal is to "force" more Tykens use (like they're giving low=end sci a buff at the cost of high-end)...
right but going from 15 drain on a Rift3 to 30, is a huge Nerf!!!
150 substarget drain, up form 120 is a huge Nerf!!!!
"Frankly, not sure why you're on a one man nerf campaign. "
Really, have you learned how to drain? If you are running only the siphon and leech to drain then you simply dont understand drain.
My drain build is excalty the same on tribble as holodeck, even with the lower siphon and leech.
I'm not even talking about drain builds specifically, I'm talking about the way Plasmonic Leech functions for everyone and with every build.
Full-on drain builds, as @lucho80 has consistently pointed out, ARE seeing a reduction in effectiveness for all abilities, and it's not entirely because of the current aux power scaling bug. I'm glad your build is unaffected, but you're probably the only naysayer I've seen saying "drain builds" are fine, compared to the many other and arguably more reputable people on these forums that have been saying exactly the opposite.
The primary issue I have with this right now, is that the 1:1 stat translation we were told about from Cryptic is simply not true, because, as I've said many times before, 100 Drain Expertise =/= 100 Flow Capacitors. The skills did not translate correctly, because all drain abilities are being affected, the Plasmonic Leech being one of them. So either this was an unintentional oversight or the stats behind these abilities were tweaked behind the scenes and we weren't informed about it.
Also, the Plasmonic Leech isn't exclusively a drain build console. It doesn't say that anywhere on the console's tooltip, and it's not restricted to ships that are running a full set of Polaron weaponry, Energy Siphon, and/or Tachyon Beam. Hell, for the KDF the console comes from a Destroyer-type vessel, obviously not an optimal ship for a drain build.
I can say That I am in fact a pure drainer, and have been for many years. I know what I am talking about. I know how the drain works and how to be a effective drainer.
When I say the drain got a buff, it got a buff.
Again saying because just the leech is less effective does not mean the drain is nerfed. That consoles was being abused by tacts in uber faw builds. If you use the leech on a drain build it is fine.
"Frankly, not sure why you're on a one man nerf campaign. "
I can say That I am in fact a pure drainer, and have been for many years. I know what I am talking about. I know how the drain works and how to be a effective drainer.
When I say the drain got a buff, it got a buff.
Again saying because just the leech is less effective does not mean the drain is nerfed. That consoles was being abused by tacts in uber faw builds. If you use the leech on a drain build it is fine.
You're still missing the point. The issue is that we were told all stats would be a 1:1 conversion and they're clearly not. Cryptic tweaked something behind the scenes, either neglecting to or intentionally not telling us. Either that or this was an unintentional side-effect of the skill revamp, but either way they've not said something about it yet so we're only left to guess and assume.
In summary: I have more issues with being given faulty information from the game developers than I do with how the overall performance of drain builds function under the skill revamp. Not saying I don't care about drain builds, but poor communication between devs and players is always what turns me off of a game and causes me to go elsewhere, and I'd rather not see that happen with STO, because I felt things were pretty good up to this point.
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depends how you spec. On tribble I have not issue getting to 125 on all subsystems when I use the siphon and the leech.
Even if they adjust things, tac captains will be worse off with plasmonic leech. It's not like energy siphon is popular outside of drain boats. Gravity well and TBR are the go to control abilites to FAW away.
Comments
Drain is not getting gutted. As a pure drainer, I see nothing but a buff to my drain build.
Perhaps people should stop trying to drain with just the siphon and the leech
While I'm not a drain specialist by the least, my memory says that if you add Tykens, Target Subsystem (for targeted subsystem drains) and are running a full slate of polaron weapons with the Leech and Syphon, you have a "drain" build...
So, having what, 40% of a build testing out as "nerfed" does not bode well for "this is still an effective build" - however, if the goal is to "force" more Tykens use (like they're giving low=end sci a buff at the cost of high-end)...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
Tribble patch notes or it did NOT happen.
Sure posting it in the general discussion thread will get more views. But it can also spread unwarranted fear and uncertainty since things implement on the Tribble server is a work in progress and there is bound to issues when compared to Holodeck. Especially when implementing a revised skill tree which will likely need a lot of tweaking.
I don't think people need to go into panic / hysteria mode unless the developers publicly state that everything on Tribble has been finalized and will go live on Holodeck, yet the bugs still persists.
==========================================
On a slightly separate topic, can someone provide me with detailed instructions on how I can gain access to the Tribble server and how I can copy my current toons onto the Tribble server? I was thinking about going onto Tribble last weekend to do some testing, but I was in the middle of collecting omega particles.
You do know patch notes don't have everything. Both plasmonic leech and energy siphon got cut down the exact same way, division by 2 on the slope from Holodeck.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
Also, considering that everybody is going to have relatively high drain resistances now due to how the Drain Expertise skill functions, wouldn't it make sense to make drain skills slightly more powerful instead of weaker to counter the increased resistances that everyone will be walking around with now?
Your not seeing a 30% drop off of drain
How will that help when Cruisers have tons of weapon power reducing options, and the leech reduction will hit Escorts too?
I've been trying to make that point, but it falls on deaf ears.
That said, this is interesting to say the least. I'd like to know the thinking behind it, or is it a mistake? I find it very hard to believe this is by design.
This is the leech is a console for drain builds. Tacts with low FC have been abusing this console for a long time now. They have corrected this issue
Borticus said he was "normalizing" things. He suggested someone provide new base numbers (Zero skill number) so they work as before. I went ahead and did it.
A drop from 2.7 drain per hit to 1.9 drain per hit with the same exact gear setup is a 30% dropoff in drain, whether you want to believe it or not.
In case you need the math: 1.9 / 2.7 = .7037037037... = 70.37%
So the Plasmonic Leech is now functioning on Tribble at basically 70% of the effectiveness it has on Holodeck, hence a 30% reduction in drain strength.
Oooohhh, "normalizing", that's a new word for it...
The leech alone is not what makes the drain.
Really, have you learned how to drain? If you are running only the siphon and leech to drain then you simply dont understand drain.
My drain build is excalty the same on tribble as holodeck, even with the lower siphon and leech.
Unless of course this is an unexpected oversight, hence why the title of this thread is "Plasmonic Leech Stealth Nerf?", with a question mark, because it is currently unknown what the cause is. The devs have not said anything about it yet, but I'm calling it like I see it at the moment.
That's cool, hopefully something comes of it, but one question, why are you or anyone else for that manner providing new base numbers? I mean no disrespect, but I find it extremely interesting that a developer or developers need numbers provided to them from players or even testers.
I see, I misunderstood what you meant.
I'm sure there are plenty more 'stealth nerf/buffs' we don't know about yet.
Full-on drain builds, as @lucho80 has consistently pointed out, ARE seeing a reduction in effectiveness for all abilities, and it's not entirely because of the current aux power scaling bug. I'm glad your build is unaffected, but you're probably the only naysayer I've seen saying "drain builds" are fine, compared to the many other and arguably more reputable people on these forums that have been saying exactly the opposite.
The primary issue I have with this right now, is that the 1:1 stat translation we were told about from Cryptic is simply not true, because, as I've said many times before, 100 Drain Expertise =/= 100 Flow Capacitors. The skills did not translate correctly, because all drain abilities are being affected, the Plasmonic Leech being one of them. So either this was an unintentional oversight or the stats behind these abilities were tweaked behind the scenes and we weren't informed about it.
Also, the Plasmonic Leech isn't exclusively a drain build console. It doesn't say that anywhere on the console's tooltip, and it's not restricted to ships that are running a full set of Polaron weaponry, Energy Siphon, and/or Tachyon Beam. Hell, for the KDF the console comes from a Destroyer-type vessel, obviously not an optimal ship for a drain build.
Yep they are hitting anything and everything science related with the nerf bat.
right but going from 15 drain on a Rift3 to 30, is a huge Nerf!!!
150 substarget drain, up form 120 is a huge Nerf!!!!
I can say That I am in fact a pure drainer, and have been for many years. I know what I am talking about. I know how the drain works and how to be a effective drainer.
When I say the drain got a buff, it got a buff.
Again saying because just the leech is less effective does not mean the drain is nerfed. That consoles was being abused by tacts in uber faw builds. If you use the leech on a drain build it is fine.
Well, not exactly. You loose out on the energy levels front because of the nerf to both buffs.
Yes, overall drain is higher, but so are resistance levels accross the board.
You can't compare Holodeck to Tribble straight up because drain defense mechanics changed drastically.
In summary: I have more issues with being given faulty information from the game developers than I do with how the overall performance of drain builds function under the skill revamp. Not saying I don't care about drain builds, but poor communication between devs and players is always what turns me off of a game and causes me to go elsewhere, and I'd rather not see that happen with STO, because I felt things were pretty good up to this point.
depends how you spec. On tribble I have not issue getting to 125 on all subsystems when I use the siphon and the leech.
Even if they adjust things, tac captains will be worse off with plasmonic leech. It's not like energy siphon is popular outside of drain boats. Gravity well and TBR are the go to control abilites to FAW away.