Really, have you learned how to drain? If you are running only the siphon and leech to drain then you simply dont understand drain.
My drain build is excalty the same on tribble as holodeck, even with the lower siphon and leech.
Well, not exactly. You loose out on the energy levels front because of the nerf to both buffs.
Yes, overall drain is higher, but so are resistance levels accross the board.
You can't compare Holodeck to Tribble straight up because drain defense mechanics changed drastically.
Even with the high res on the AI, I only had to move to 500 Drain (400 fc on Holo) and I was seeing the same effect on the drain. I only had to move one console to make this happen btw, So i lost nothing
I can say That I am in fact a pure drainer, and have been for many years. I know what I am talking about. I know how the drain works and how to be a effective drainer.
When I say the drain got a buff, it got a buff.
Again saying because just the leech is less effective does not mean the drain is nerfed. That consoles was being abused by tacts in uber faw builds. If you use the leech on a drain build it is fine.
You're still missing the point. The issue is that we were told all stats would be a 1:1 conversion and they're clearly not. Cryptic tweaked something behind the scenes, either neglecting to or intentionally not telling us. Either that or this was an unintentional side-effect of the skill revamp, but either way they've not said something about it yet so we're only left to guess and assume.
TL;DR: I have more issues with being given faulty information from the game developers than I do with how the overall performance of drain builds function under the skill revamp. Poor communication between devs and players is always what turns me off of a game and causes me to go elsewhere, and I'd rather not see that happen with STO, because I felt things were pretty good up to this point.
Sounds like you are a just upset because you used a drain console to over your weapon to get higher dps, or maybe to run higher Aux for better healing etc, whatever. But you were not using it as a drain, which it is created for.
"Frankly, not sure why you're on a one man nerf campaign. "
In summary: I have more issues with being given faulty information from the game developers than I do with how the overall performance of drain builds function under the skill revamp. Not saying I don't care about drain builds, but poor communication between devs and players is always what turns me off of a game and causes me to go elsewhere, and I'd rather not see that happen with STO, because I felt things were pretty good up to this point.
Hey man, some of us get what you're saying and greatly appreciate your efforts and your testing. I totally agree, if this was intended then it absolutely MUST be communicated to the player base.
The Plasmonic Leech is a huge part of many many builds and a nerf on that would definitely have a dramatic effect. Please keep us posted on this and let us know if you see any change in this because I for one am REALLY interested to know what you find.
Thanks again for testing this and letting us know @alphahydri , hopefully this change is not intended.
Sounds like you are a just upset because you used a drain console to over your weapon to get higher dps, or maybe to run higher Aux for better healing etc, whatever. But you were not using it as a drain, which it is created for.
Yes, well when I and many, many others spend hundreds of millions of EC or even some Dilithium or real-world money to get a console that is fundamentally changed without warning and with no explanation/justification from the devs, I guess you can say that's why I'm upset.
Also, the console isn't being "abused" by anyone, so get that thought out of your head. As I've said before, the Plasmonic Leech was never a "FOR DRAINBOATS ONLY" console. May I remind you that it was Cryptic that put the Leech into a lock box, not the players. We're just using all the tools that are available to us in the pursuit of greater numerical gains. I fail to see how using all the tools someone has available to them is considered "abuse"?
Or is it maybe that we're not using the Leech in the way you believe it should be used, and so you're saying we all "abuse" it because we're not doing with it what you would like? If that's the case, then you need to get off your high horse and stop acting like the Leech only has a function in one build in the game, which it simply doesn't.
Hey man, some of us get what you're saying and greatly appreciate your efforts and your testing. I totally agree, if this was intended then it absolutely MUST be communicated to the player base.
The Plasmonic Leech is a huge part of many many builds and a nerf on that would definitely have a dramatic effect. Please keep us posted on this and let us know if you see any change in this because I for one am REALLY interested to know what you find.
Thanks again for testing this and letting us know @alphahydri , hopefully this change is not intended.
Here is where the communication breakdown occured. They did say Aux scaling was changing (although it was buggy at first), but they never mentioned they were changing the Plasmonic Leech or Energy Siphon equations, both of which scale solely based on skill level. Last week we found out about Energy Siphon through testing, and this week about Plasmonic Leech since copying a toon is the only way to play with special consoles and lobi gear on Tribble (FYI - Adding Lobi gear and special consoles to the test console would be nice). If they had stated what equations were being changed outside of Aux scaling, this would have gone a lot smoother from the get go. Now everyone thinks this was a stealth nerf.
Sounds like you are a just upset because you used a drain console to over your weapon to get higher dps, or maybe to run higher Aux for better healing etc, whatever. But you were not using it as a drain, which it is created for.
Yes, well when I and many, many others spend hundreds of millions of EC or even some Dilithium or real-world money to get a console that is fundamentally changed without warning and with no explanation/justification from the devs, I guess you can say that's why I'm upset.
Also, the console isn't being "abused" by anyone, so get that thought out of your head. As I've said before, the Plasmonic Leech was never a "FOR DRAINBOATS ONLY" console. May I remind you that it was Cryptic that put the Leech into a lock box, not the players. We're just using all the tools that are available to us in the pursuit of greater numerical gains. I fail to see how using all the tools someone has available to them is considered "abuse"?
Or is it maybe that we're not using the Leech in the way you believe it should be used, and so you're saying we all "abuse" it because we're not doing with it what you would like? If that's the case, then you need to get off your high horse and stop acting like the Leech only has a function in one build in the game, which it simply doesn't.
But it is a drain console. Its function acts just like the siphon, therefore it is a drain consoles. It is buffed by FC, like any other drain. Therefore its function was for drain.
Tacts started using it outside of drain so they can get higher power levels in all sub systems for the AMP mod on warp/ sing cores, and also not have to spec into warp core potential. That is were the abuse came in. One console meant you would not have to spend xp in a many different skills.
Bort said not 1:1, what he said was if a 200 fc was easy attainable, then 400 should be also, and that then you would so the 1:1. They are making it easy to get higher Drain exp, but you need to match the increase of that skill to see the 1:1
"Frankly, not sure why you're on a one man nerf campaign. "
I’m interested in understanding how this nerf was implemented. Was plasmonic leech changed directly or is it a more indirect result of the NPC targeted with it?
I mean some of them seem to have influential flow caps too which, under the change, will grand influential power insulators as well.
Is that affecting the leech perhaps?
Since energy siphon and the rift abilities both have wonky values, I suspect that this is an issue with just how drain works over plasmonic specifically being targeted. SIGH...I was hoping they would deal with tact online with this balance pass, but they seem adamant that they nerf sci...while buffing tact even more (6% crit chance and 20% crit severity...really? Tacts really needed even more stupid pew pew?!?).
Nerf DPS over sci abilities will directly mean nerf sci abilities.
Or nerf tac abilities. Everyone knows that BFaW particularly is over-performing even compared to other tac abilities.
Support 90 degree arc limitation on BFaW! Save our ships from looking like flying disco balls of dumb!
But it is a drain console. Its function acts just like the siphon, therefore it is a drain consoles. It is buffed by FC, like any other drain. Therefore its function was for drain.
Tacts started using it outside of drain so they can get higher power levels in all sub systems for the AMP mod on warp/ sing cores, and also not have to spec into warp core potential. That is were the abuse came in. One console meant you would not have to spend xp in a many different skills.
Bort said not 1:1, what he said was if a 200 fc was easy attainable, then 400 should be also, and that then you would so the 1:1. They are making it easy to get higher Drain exp, but you need to match the increase of that skill to see the 1:1
On the high end, that double skill math there breaks down. Your 1:2 ratio only works on the low end of things, and mostly because of the science console slots on 5 sci console ships. It's closer to 1:1.4 on the top end.
But it is a drain console. Its function acts just like the siphon, therefore it is a drain consoles. It is buffed by FC, like any other drain. Therefore its function was for drain.
Tacts started using it outside of drain so they can get higher power levels in all sub systems for the AMP mod on warp/ sing cores, and also not have to spec into warp core potential. That is were the abuse came in. One console meant you would not have to spend xp in a many different skills.
Bort said not 1:1, what he said was if a 200 fc was easy attainable, then 400 should be also, and that then you would so the 1:1. They are making it easy to get higher Drain exp, but you need to match the increase of that skill to see the 1:1
I'd like to see a link to where he said that, if you don't mind. I distinctly remember him saying a lot of stuff on the Tribble feedback thread that players will be able to replicate their builds perfectly between Tribble and Holodeck, and that only in certain situations would players see a loss in effectiveness.
So yes, on paper you can spec into everything you had before and "perfectly" replicate your builds, but when the stat scaling and math behind the scenes is changed without notice, it's not actually a perfect translation. Yes, getting high levels of Drain Expertise is easier now, but in order to get your drains performing where they were before you need to change a lot of the gear on your builds in order to do it. You basically need to invest almost twice as much in Drain Expertise to match what we have now stat-wise on Holodeck, which is not a good thing.
Also, saying that "if 200 Flow Capacitors was easily attainable, then 400 should be also" directly implicates that this is in fact NOT a 1:1 translation. This basically means that people will have to change their builds in order to perform at the same level they did previously, which means that you can't, in reality, replicate your builds 100%.
This 1:2 thing you've mentioned may be negligible at the high end of the Drain Expertise spectrum, but for those who haven't heavily invested in that skill it hurts more, A LOT more. Why not just change it so there's diminishing returns on Drain Expertise, like what they did with aux power? That way people on the low end aren't too heavily affected but you also avoid issues with people getting like 10 drain per hit with Plasmonic Leech or something like that.
Do you see it yet, what my real issue is? We're only getting some of the truth, some of the facts, and even then a lot of what we're being told is worded in such a way that it is nonthreatening at first read but when you actually do the testing it's a lot worse that what was believed.
But it is a drain console. Its function acts just like the siphon, therefore it is a drain consoles. It is buffed by FC, like any other drain. Therefore its function was for drain.
Tacts started using it outside of drain so they can get higher power levels in all sub systems for the AMP mod on warp/ sing cores, and also not have to spec into warp core potential. That is were the abuse came in. One console meant you would not have to spend xp in a many different skills.
Bort said not 1:1, what he said was if a 200 fc was easy attainable, then 400 should be also, and that then you would so the 1:1. They are making it easy to get higher Drain exp, but you need to match the increase of that skill to see the 1:1
I'd like to see a link to where he said that, if you don't mind. I distinctly remember him saying a lot of stuff on the Tribble feedback thread that players will be able to replicate their builds perfectly between Tribble and Holodeck, and that only in certain situations would players see a loss in effectiveness.
So yes, on paper you can spec into everything you had before and "perfectly" replicate your builds, but when the stat scaling and math behind the scenes is changed without notice, it's not actually a perfect translation. Yes, getting high levels of Drain Expertise is easier now, but in order to get your drains performing where they were before you need to change a lot of the gear on your builds in order to do it.
Also, saying that "if 200 Flow Capacitors was easily attainable, then 400 should be also" directly implicates that this is in fact NOT a 1:1 translation. This basically means that people will have to change their builds in order to perform at the same level they did previously, which means that you can't, in reality, replicate your builds 100%.
This 1:2 thing you've mentioned may be negligible at the high end of the Drain Expertise spectrum, but for those who haven't heavily invested in that skill it hurts more, A LOT more. Why not just change it so there's diminishing returns on Drain Expertise, like what they did with aux power? That way people on the low end aren't too heavily affected but you also avoid issues with people getting like 10 drain per hit with Plasmonic Leech or something like that.
Do you see it yet, what my real issue is? We're only getting some of the truth, some of the facts, and even then a lot of what we're being told is worded in such a way that it is nonthreatening at first read but when you actually do the testing it's a lot worse that what was believed.
He said you can set your skill points on tribble in the new system like you have now on holodeck, he was talking about skill points.
If you listen the podcast he said 1:1 in terms as you can be higher in those skills. As if you average people can get to 200 fc on holodeck, but on tribble in the new system the average is say 400 then those skills need to be 1:1 at that points.
In no way would it be okay if 1:1 started at were you are now on holodeck, when you can go so much higher in the new system. The scaling must match with what is now attainable.
says it was 1:1 and you were getting says 2.7 at 150. But now you can double that easy and your are 300. would it be okay to have that be 5.4?
Really stop asking to be op with out the work or effort
"Frankly, not sure why you're on a one man nerf campaign. "
He said you can set your skill points on tribble in the new system like you have now on holodeck, he was talking about skill points.
If you listen the podcast he said 1:1 in terms as you can be higher in those skills. As if you average people can get to 200 fc on holodeck, but on tribble in the new system the average is say 400 then those skills need to be 1:1 at that points.
In no way would it be okay if 1:1 started at were you are now on holodeck, when you can go so much higher in the new system. The scaling must match with what is now attainable.
Two words: Diminishing. Returns.
This game doesn't have a lot of that outside of hull damage resistances, so adding it to Drain Expertise would be appropriate. I even mentioned this in the post you quoted but it appears you glossed over it. That way people at the low end of the spectrum won't see a huge difference between Tribble and Holodeck, while the higher you stack Drain Expertise you get less return on investment. This wouldn't hurt drain builds too much, and would keep people from getting ridiculously high drain stats.
Basically, they needed to adjust how Drain Expertise scales at higher levels instead of altering the base drain stats and overall scaling of the skill for everything in the game. The way it is now everybody with a drain ability or console in their builds is being hit to some extent with a reduction in effectiveness, even if it's only with a few abilities. With diminishing returns you'd keep high drain stats in check (which is what I'd assume this change was made for) while also not heavily affecting people without a lot of investment into Drain Expertise.
He said you can set your skill points on tribble in the new system like you have now on holodeck, he was talking about skill points.
If you listen the podcast he said 1:1 in terms as you can be higher in those skills. As if you average people can get to 200 fc on holodeck, but on tribble in the new system the average is say 400 then those skills need to be 1:1 at that points.
In no way would it be okay if 1:1 started at were you are now on holodeck, when you can go so much higher in the new system. The scaling must match with what is now attainable.
says it was 1:1 and you were getting says 2.7 at 150. But now you can double that easy and your are 300. would it be okay to have that be 5.4?
Really stop asking to be op with out the work or effort
I have to remind you again, that "average" is just considering 5 sci consoles and Terran rep gear. The ratio is much lower higher up.
He said you can set your skill points on tribble in the new system like you have now on holodeck, he was talking about skill points.
If you listen the podcast he said 1:1 in terms as you can be higher in those skills. As if you average people can get to 200 fc on holodeck, but on tribble in the new system the average is say 400 then those skills need to be 1:1 at that points.
In no way would it be okay if 1:1 started at were you are now on holodeck, when you can go so much higher in the new system. The scaling must match with what is now attainable.
He said you can set your skill points on tribble in the new system like you have now on holodeck, he was talking about skill points.
If you listen the podcast he said 1:1 in terms as you can be higher in those skills. As if you average people can get to 200 fc on holodeck, but on tribble in the new system the average is say 400 then those skills need to be 1:1 at that points.
In no way would it be okay if 1:1 started at were you are now on holodeck, when you can go so much higher in the new system. The scaling must match with what is now attainable.
says it was 1:1 and you were getting says 2.7 at 150. But now you can double that easy and your are 300. would it be okay to have that be 5.4?
Really stop asking to be op with out the work or effort
I have to remind you again, that "average" is just considering 5 sci consoles and Terran rep gear. The ratio is much lower higher up.
Right, but at 500ish drain the leech is still powerful and effective, as it should be. It should be useless if you run a low end drain exp build. This way tacts stop using it get higher subsystems to get higher dps
"Frankly, not sure why you're on a one man nerf campaign. "
Right, but at 500ish drain the leech is still powerful and effective, as it should be. It should be useless if you run a low end drain exp build. This way tacts stop using it get higher subsystems to get higher dps
So again, because we don't use Plasmonic Leech the way you feel it should be used we're in the wrong? Hate to break it to ya, but the drain effects Tactical captains get from Plasmonic Leech and Energy Siphon gives us the EXACT SAME BOOSTS it gives you in your drainboat.
Tactical captains use the Plasmonic Leech to boost their subsystem power to make them more effective in combat, drainboats use the Plasmonic Leech to primarily drain their target's power, but the power gets returned to you anyways. It's boosting your DPS just as much as it's boosting ours when it look at it like that, only drainboats have the goal of draining subsystem power while Tactical captains focus on boosting DPS. In fact, you'd actually get a higher boost since you've specced heavier into Drain Expertise/Flow Capacitors than Tactical captains have. Either way you get both the DPS boost and the drain boost regardless of what you're focusing on.
Right, but at 500ish drain the leech is still powerful and effective, as it should be. It should be useless if you run a low end drain exp build. This way tacts stop using it get higher subsystems to get higher dps
I think you're too hung up on tacs. I run a tac captain in a Mobius drain boat with polarized disruptors cannons and decently high flow caps. It doesn't get to 20K DPS.
Sounds like you are a just upset because you used a drain console to over your weapon to get higher dps, or maybe to run higher Aux for better healing etc, whatever. But you were not using it as a drain, which it is created for.
Yes, well when I and many, many others spend hundreds of millions of EC or even some Dilithium or real-world money to get a console that is fundamentally changed without warning and with no explanation/justification from the devs, I guess you can say that's why I'm upset.
Also, the console isn't being "abused" by anyone, so get that thought out of your head. As I've said before, the Plasmonic Leech was never a "FOR DRAINBOATS ONLY" console. May I remind you that it was Cryptic that put the Leech into a lock box, not the players. We're just using all the tools that are available to us in the pursuit of greater numerical gains. I fail to see how using all the tools someone has available to them is considered "abuse"?
Or is it maybe that we're not using the Leech in the way you believe it should be used, and so you're saying we all "abuse" it because we're not doing with it what you would like? If that's the case, then you need to get off your high horse and stop acting like the Leech only has a function in one build in the game, which it simply doesn't.
Leech is at the core of every build, on every ship I have, as more power effects everything. I am upset by this, what appears to be a major nerf. Haven't read each and every post on this everywhere (there are simply soo many posts), but nowhere did I hear Bort come out and say the nerf to the Leech was an obvious bug they'll fix soon. I did find a post of his saying we shouldn't cry nerf yet: fixing the Leech would go a long way towards me believing that. Otherwise, I'll call a spade a spade, and a nerf a nerf.
Right, but at 500ish drain the leech is still powerful and effective, as it should be. It should be useless if you run a low end drain exp build. This way tacts stop using it get higher subsystems to get higher dps
So again, because we don't use Plasmonic Leech the way you feel it should be used we're in the wrong? Hate to break it to ya, but the drain effects Tactical captains get from Plasmonic Leech and Energy Siphon gives us the EXACT SAME BOOSTS it gives you in your drainboat.
Tactical captains use the Plasmonic Leech to boost their subsystem power to make them more effective in combat, drainboats use the Plasmonic Leech to primarily drain their target's power, but the power gets returned to you anyways. It's boosting your DPS just as much as it's boosting ours when it look at it like that, only drainboats have the goal of draining subsystem power while Tactical captains focus on boosting DPS. In fact, you'd actually get a higher boost since you've specced heavier into Drain Expertise/Flow Capacitors than Tactical captains have. Either way you get both the DPS boost and the drain boost regardless of what you're focusing on.
That still does not change the fact that it is a drain console, and better used on a drain boat. It would like me using a Tact console to boost my beam damage. Yes it boost my beams, but my drain build anit about beams or dps, just like your uber antiporton bfaw build is about the drain.
"Frankly, not sure why you're on a one man nerf campaign. "
That still does not change the fact that it is a drain console, and better used on a drain boat. It would like me using a Tact console to boost my beam damage. Yes it boost my beams, but my drain build anit about beams or dps, just like your uber antiporton bfaw build is about the drain.
LOL, contrary to what others may do, I actually don't use Antiproton weapons that much. I stick to whatever weapons my ships would use thematically, i.e. Feds use Phasers, Klingons use Disruptors, Dominion use Polaron, etc. The only ones where I ditch that theming is on Breen and Romulan ships, because Disruptors make more sense for them than I feel Polaron and Plasma do, respectively. I just feel it makes all the ships a little more unique and differentiated and keeps with the established lore.
I am by no means a 100K+ DPS guy, but I do care about numbers to an extent, and using the Plasmonic Leech on all of my ships on all of my characters plays into that. Just thought I'd make that clear, because it seems you're under the impression that this is a good change to counter the mega-DPSers when it's actually affecting more players than you appear to believe.
Here is where the communication breakdown occured. They did say Aux scaling was changing (although it was buggy at first), but they never mentioned they were changing the Plasmonic Leech or Energy Siphon equations, both of which scale solely based on skill level.
This isn't completely true. Though we never called out Plasmonic or ES by name (nor any other of the hundreds of abilities that underwent some change or another), we did include this note in our Feb 19th Tribble Patch Notes:
The scaling aspects of most powers that benefit from Skills have been altered and normalized.
This will have the most notable impact on powers that benefited from Particle Generators (now called “Exotic Particle Generators”) and Profession-specific Ground Skills (now consolidated as “Kit Performance”).
Some powers will have gained effectiveness, while others have had their skill contributions reduced.
This will require additional ongoing attention and tuning, as we discover abilities that either were not properly adjusted, or have gained/lost too much core effectiveness from this change.
Furthermore, I have personally been making extensive efforts to listen to the feedback being provided on Tribble, explain the thought processes behind this change (and many others), and clarify things that might not be immediately obvious regarding this ongoing process of tuning abilities such as this.
To say that there's been a communication breakdown is, in my opinion, an overstatement edging on falsehood. If you're not getting the information that you want or need regarding these changes, then I'm fairly certain you haven't made those needs clear.
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
...
Furthermore, I have personally been making extensive efforts to listen to the feedback being provided on Tribble, explain the thought processes behind this change (and many others), and clarify things that might not be immediately obvious regarding this ongoing process of tuning abilities such as this.
...
And it's appreciated, especially when we're seeing comments (now edited and gone) that make us out to be screaming into the vacuum.
They use metrics because asking the players is "useless." Polling players gets them "no useful information." Players will "say they will buy something, but then don't buy it."
To say that there's been a communication breakdown is, in my opinion, an overstatement edging on falsehood. If you're not getting the information that you want or need regarding these changes, then I'm fairly certain you haven't made those needs clear.
An overstatement edging on falsehood?! I wager real Zen on stating not a single player, however wide you search the place, could deduce, even remotely, from those 2 statements, that the Leech' effectiveness was going to be cut in half.
I always appreciate Dev feedback; but a communication breakdown is, I think, exactly what happened. Sorry, but this came as a total shock to me.
To say that there's been a communication breakdown is, in my opinion, an overstatement edging on falsehood. If you're not getting the information that you want or need regarding these changes, then I'm fairly certain you haven't made those needs clear.
Y'know, I've not said it previously, but I'm going to say it now, at the 'lighter' end of the spectrum of things I could say.
There's been a communication breakdown.
How else do you define removing the ability to see skills and their effective levels at a glance from the UI?
How else do you define asking people to test a systems change without giving them the specific information related to those changes?
These things are intrinsic to testing and not only have they not been provided, in one case it's been actively removed on multiple levels, from the skill UI we're meant to be testing to the effective skill values from the ship stats tab.
Want to see a falsehood? Read back your statement about how a communication breakdown is an overstatement.
What everyone buying Zen are really saying while all these bugs are still floating freely:
Stop new content until quality returns
Hope they are smart enough to see that DPS builds are a massive sync with tac powers to be only one part of it. Take away the DEEPZ over sci will hurt the fans only a bit while hurting the rest much more.
If I do 100k or 80k in ISA is not that big of a concern for me. Setting back all the 10k peeps to 5 would be however. Not to mention the sci or eng peeps which use the stuff for other purposes than plain DPS.
I'm a sci and have been playing since star trek online started. I try to crowd control, heal and powerdrain. I'm one of those 10k peeps. I have a hard enough time trying to keep everyone healthy to take a blow to my auxiliary (sci) powers.
I have an "excellent" idea for an April's Fool:
"We realized that Plasmonic Leech has been imbalanced the whole time. It was never really working as we envisioned, and it doesn't meet our current quality expectations for balanced gear anymore. We have therefore decided to remove the Plasmonic Leech. Upon the Patch on the 1st of April, all Plasmonic Leech Universal Consoles will be replaced with a the new 50th Anniversary Space Fireworks universal console. This console can be equipped in any console slot on any ship, and can be used every 10 seconds to unleash a spectacular firework in space, and has a 25 % chance to create a balloon starship. The baloon starship draws the aggro of nearby foes and lasts for up to 15 seconds, or until its hit points are depleted. Live Long and Prosper!"
To say that there's been a communication breakdown is, in my opinion, an overstatement edging on falsehood. If you're not getting the information that you want or need regarding these changes, then I'm fairly certain you haven't made those needs clear.
Y'know, I've not said it previously, but I'm going to say it now, at the 'lighter' end of the spectrum of things I could say.
There's been a communication breakdown.
How else do you define removing the ability to see skills and their effective levels at a glance from the UI?
How else do you define asking people to test a systems change without giving them the specific information related to those changes?
These things are intrinsic to testing and not only have they not been provided, in one case it's been actively removed on multiple levels, from the skill UI we're meant to be testing to the effective skill values from the ship stats tab.
Want to see a falsehood? Read back your statement about how a communication breakdown is an overstatement.
The communciation breakdown here is that apparently the concept of a "Test Server" and "In Testing" has not been communicated successfully?
This isn't expected to be a polished and convenient experience. Inconveniences are unfortunate, but part of the risk of testing stuff.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Even after todays patch, it is the same. I'm ok with it. My leech on tribble is still pulling 1.9 per activation with the 2 nodes in drain expertise and 2 embassy consoles. As for all the people that thought running super drain builds with nothing but universal consoles (gimmick builds), I am sorry but they will be much less effective. TBH, has no place in PVE. Maybe its a PVP thing, IDK. But it sure is funny, and their parsers always give me a good chuckle.
Even after todays patch, it is the same. I'm ok with it. My leech on tribble is still pulling 1.9 per activation with the 2 nodes in drain expertise and 2 embassy consoles. As for all the people that thought running super drain builds with nothing but universal consoles (gimmick builds), I am sorry but they will be much less effective. TBH, has no place in PVE. Maybe its a PVP thing, IDK. But it sure is funny, and their parsers always give me a good chuckle.
^
And this is why the game is in this state. If I can't see DPS out of drains then they must suck and nobody should care. I'll give you a hint, the drain boat effect is seen in the damage sustained from NPCs.
If no one has messed with your DPS or non-sci abilities then good for you.
To say that there's been a communication breakdown is, in my opinion, an overstatement edging on falsehood. If you're not getting the information that you want or need regarding these changes, then I'm fairly certain you haven't made those needs clear.
Y'know, I've not said it previously, but I'm going to say it now, at the 'lighter' end of the spectrum of things I could say.
There's been a communication breakdown.
How else do you define removing the ability to see skills and their effective levels at a glance from the UI?
How else do you define asking people to test a systems change without giving them the specific information related to those changes?
These things are intrinsic to testing and not only have they not been provided, in one case it's been actively removed on multiple levels, from the skill UI we're meant to be testing to the effective skill values from the ship stats tab.
Want to see a falsehood? Read back your statement about how a communication breakdown is an overstatement.
The communciation breakdown here is that apparently the concept of a "Test Server" and "In Testing" has not been communicated successfully?
Hmm, LOL, I think we have a new communication breakdown, right here! As, the way I understood Bort, I didn't get the impression, at all, that the Leech thing was in any way, shape or form, negotiable. If so, then my bad, and we have, recte notandum, a new communication breakdown!
Comments
Even with the high res on the AI, I only had to move to 500 Drain (400 fc on Holo) and I was seeing the same effect on the drain. I only had to move one console to make this happen btw, So i lost nothing
Sounds like you are a just upset because you used a drain console to over your weapon to get higher dps, or maybe to run higher Aux for better healing etc, whatever. But you were not using it as a drain, which it is created for.
Hey man, some of us get what you're saying and greatly appreciate your efforts and your testing. I totally agree, if this was intended then it absolutely MUST be communicated to the player base.
The Plasmonic Leech is a huge part of many many builds and a nerf on that would definitely have a dramatic effect. Please keep us posted on this and let us know if you see any change in this because I for one am REALLY interested to know what you find.
Thanks again for testing this and letting us know @alphahydri , hopefully this change is not intended.
Also, the console isn't being "abused" by anyone, so get that thought out of your head. As I've said before, the Plasmonic Leech was never a "FOR DRAINBOATS ONLY" console. May I remind you that it was Cryptic that put the Leech into a lock box, not the players. We're just using all the tools that are available to us in the pursuit of greater numerical gains. I fail to see how using all the tools someone has available to them is considered "abuse"?
Or is it maybe that we're not using the Leech in the way you believe it should be used, and so you're saying we all "abuse" it because we're not doing with it what you would like? If that's the case, then you need to get off your high horse and stop acting like the Leech only has a function in one build in the game, which it simply doesn't.
Here is where the communication breakdown occured. They did say Aux scaling was changing (although it was buggy at first), but they never mentioned they were changing the Plasmonic Leech or Energy Siphon equations, both of which scale solely based on skill level. Last week we found out about Energy Siphon through testing, and this week about Plasmonic Leech since copying a toon is the only way to play with special consoles and lobi gear on Tribble (FYI - Adding Lobi gear and special consoles to the test console would be nice). If they had stated what equations were being changed outside of Aux scaling, this would have gone a lot smoother from the get go. Now everyone thinks this was a stealth nerf.
But it is a drain console. Its function acts just like the siphon, therefore it is a drain consoles. It is buffed by FC, like any other drain. Therefore its function was for drain.
Tacts started using it outside of drain so they can get higher power levels in all sub systems for the AMP mod on warp/ sing cores, and also not have to spec into warp core potential. That is were the abuse came in. One console meant you would not have to spend xp in a many different skills.
Bort said not 1:1, what he said was if a 200 fc was easy attainable, then 400 should be also, and that then you would so the 1:1. They are making it easy to get higher Drain exp, but you need to match the increase of that skill to see the 1:1
Or nerf tac abilities. Everyone knows that BFaW particularly is over-performing even compared to other tac abilities.
Support 90 degree arc limitation on BFaW! Save our ships from looking like flying disco balls of dumb!
On the high end, that double skill math there breaks down. Your 1:2 ratio only works on the low end of things, and mostly because of the science console slots on 5 sci console ships. It's closer to 1:1.4 on the top end.
So yes, on paper you can spec into everything you had before and "perfectly" replicate your builds, but when the stat scaling and math behind the scenes is changed without notice, it's not actually a perfect translation. Yes, getting high levels of Drain Expertise is easier now, but in order to get your drains performing where they were before you need to change a lot of the gear on your builds in order to do it. You basically need to invest almost twice as much in Drain Expertise to match what we have now stat-wise on Holodeck, which is not a good thing.
Also, saying that "if 200 Flow Capacitors was easily attainable, then 400 should be also" directly implicates that this is in fact NOT a 1:1 translation. This basically means that people will have to change their builds in order to perform at the same level they did previously, which means that you can't, in reality, replicate your builds 100%.
This 1:2 thing you've mentioned may be negligible at the high end of the Drain Expertise spectrum, but for those who haven't heavily invested in that skill it hurts more, A LOT more. Why not just change it so there's diminishing returns on Drain Expertise, like what they did with aux power? That way people on the low end aren't too heavily affected but you also avoid issues with people getting like 10 drain per hit with Plasmonic Leech or something like that.
Do you see it yet, what my real issue is? We're only getting some of the truth, some of the facts, and even then a lot of what we're being told is worded in such a way that it is nonthreatening at first read but when you actually do the testing it's a lot worse that what was believed.
He said you can set your skill points on tribble in the new system like you have now on holodeck, he was talking about skill points.
If you listen the podcast he said 1:1 in terms as you can be higher in those skills. As if you average people can get to 200 fc on holodeck, but on tribble in the new system the average is say 400 then those skills need to be 1:1 at that points.
In no way would it be okay if 1:1 started at were you are now on holodeck, when you can go so much higher in the new system. The scaling must match with what is now attainable.
says it was 1:1 and you were getting says 2.7 at 150. But now you can double that easy and your are 300. would it be okay to have that be 5.4?
Really stop asking to be op with out the work or effort
This game doesn't have a lot of that outside of hull damage resistances, so adding it to Drain Expertise would be appropriate. I even mentioned this in the post you quoted but it appears you glossed over it. That way people at the low end of the spectrum won't see a huge difference between Tribble and Holodeck, while the higher you stack Drain Expertise you get less return on investment. This wouldn't hurt drain builds too much, and would keep people from getting ridiculously high drain stats.
Basically, they needed to adjust how Drain Expertise scales at higher levels instead of altering the base drain stats and overall scaling of the skill for everything in the game. The way it is now everybody with a drain ability or console in their builds is being hit to some extent with a reduction in effectiveness, even if it's only with a few abilities. With diminishing returns you'd keep high drain stats in check (which is what I'd assume this change was made for) while also not heavily affecting people without a lot of investment into Drain Expertise.
I have to remind you again, that "average" is just considering 5 sci consoles and Terran rep gear. The ratio is much lower higher up.
Right, but at 500ish drain the leech is still powerful and effective, as it should be. It should be useless if you run a low end drain exp build. This way tacts stop using it get higher subsystems to get higher dps
Tactical captains use the Plasmonic Leech to boost their subsystem power to make them more effective in combat, drainboats use the Plasmonic Leech to primarily drain their target's power, but the power gets returned to you anyways. It's boosting your DPS just as much as it's boosting ours when it look at it like that, only drainboats have the goal of draining subsystem power while Tactical captains focus on boosting DPS. In fact, you'd actually get a higher boost since you've specced heavier into Drain Expertise/Flow Capacitors than Tactical captains have. Either way you get both the DPS boost and the drain boost regardless of what you're focusing on.
I think you're too hung up on tacs. I run a tac captain in a Mobius drain boat with polarized disruptors cannons and decently high flow caps. It doesn't get to 20K DPS.
Leech is at the core of every build, on every ship I have, as more power effects everything. I am upset by this, what appears to be a major nerf. Haven't read each and every post on this everywhere (there are simply soo many posts), but nowhere did I hear Bort come out and say the nerf to the Leech was an obvious bug they'll fix soon. I did find a post of his saying we shouldn't cry nerf yet: fixing the Leech would go a long way towards me believing that. Otherwise, I'll call a spade a spade, and a nerf a nerf.
That still does not change the fact that it is a drain console, and better used on a drain boat. It would like me using a Tact console to boost my beam damage. Yes it boost my beams, but my drain build anit about beams or dps, just like your uber antiporton bfaw build is about the drain.
I am by no means a 100K+ DPS guy, but I do care about numbers to an extent, and using the Plasmonic Leech on all of my ships on all of my characters plays into that. Just thought I'd make that clear, because it seems you're under the impression that this is a good change to counter the mega-DPSers when it's actually affecting more players than you appear to believe.
This isn't completely true. Though we never called out Plasmonic or ES by name (nor any other of the hundreds of abilities that underwent some change or another), we did include this note in our Feb 19th Tribble Patch Notes:
Furthermore, I have personally been making extensive efforts to listen to the feedback being provided on Tribble, explain the thought processes behind this change (and many others), and clarify things that might not be immediately obvious regarding this ongoing process of tuning abilities such as this.
To say that there's been a communication breakdown is, in my opinion, an overstatement edging on falsehood. If you're not getting the information that you want or need regarding these changes, then I'm fairly certain you haven't made those needs clear.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
And it's appreciated, especially when we're seeing comments (now edited and gone) that make us out to be screaming into the vacuum.
An overstatement edging on falsehood?! I wager real Zen on stating not a single player, however wide you search the place, could deduce, even remotely, from those 2 statements, that the Leech' effectiveness was going to be cut in half.
I always appreciate Dev feedback; but a communication breakdown is, I think, exactly what happened. Sorry, but this came as a total shock to me.
Y'know, I've not said it previously, but I'm going to say it now, at the 'lighter' end of the spectrum of things I could say.
There's been a communication breakdown.
How else do you define removing the ability to see skills and their effective levels at a glance from the UI?
How else do you define asking people to test a systems change without giving them the specific information related to those changes?
These things are intrinsic to testing and not only have they not been provided, in one case it's been actively removed on multiple levels, from the skill UI we're meant to be testing to the effective skill values from the ship stats tab.
Want to see a falsehood? Read back your statement about how a communication breakdown is an overstatement.
Stop new content until quality returns
People equate the word powers to boff or captain abilities. The plasmonic leech console is not a "power", so neither you or I are completely correct.
STO Resources: <Ship Comparison - All Tiers + Small Craft + Hangar Pets> <Damage Resistance>
<R&D + Upgrade Costs> <Duty Officer Finder> <Suliban Doff Reqs> <Fleet Costs> <Rep Costs>
<Keybind Tour the Galaxy> <Fleet / Armada Management> <Currency Exchange> <Other STO Links>
I have an "excellent" idea for an April's Fool:
"We realized that Plasmonic Leech has been imbalanced the whole time. It was never really working as we envisioned, and it doesn't meet our current quality expectations for balanced gear anymore. We have therefore decided to remove the Plasmonic Leech. Upon the Patch on the 1st of April, all Plasmonic Leech Universal Consoles will be replaced with a the new 50th Anniversary Space Fireworks universal console. This console can be equipped in any console slot on any ship, and can be used every 10 seconds to unleash a spectacular firework in space, and has a 25 % chance to create a balloon starship. The baloon starship draws the aggro of nearby foes and lasts for up to 15 seconds, or until its hit points are depleted. Live Long and Prosper!"
The communciation breakdown here is that apparently the concept of a "Test Server" and "In Testing" has not been communicated successfully?
This isn't expected to be a polished and convenient experience. Inconveniences are unfortunate, but part of the risk of testing stuff.
^
And this is why the game is in this state. If I can't see DPS out of drains then they must suck and nobody should care. I'll give you a hint, the drain boat effect is seen in the damage sustained from NPCs.
If no one has messed with your DPS or non-sci abilities then good for you.
Hmm, LOL, I think we have a new communication breakdown, right here! As, the way I understood Bort, I didn't get the impression, at all, that the Leech thing was in any way, shape or form, negotiable. If so, then my bad, and we have, recte notandum, a new communication breakdown!