You mean the one and only queue where the NPC to kill has no shields and you need to do nothing but destroy that one enemy is where torpedoes are in fact the superior choice to beams with beam fire at will? Shocking.
Seems I have the ultimate "don't nerf BFAW, buff the rest" idea - take away NPC shields and just double their hit points.
Still think the most efficient way to fix the hyperinflation of DPS for BFAW is to simply stop Go Down Fighting (GDF) and Attack Pattern Alpha (APA) from interacting with BFAW.
GDF and APA will still boost everything else including the kitchen sink so the overall effect on tactical players should be negligible.
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
You mean the one and only queue where the NPC to kill has no shields and you need to do nothing but destroy that one enemy is where torpedoes are in fact the superior choice to beams with beam fire at will? Shocking.
Seems I have the ultimate "don't nerf BFAW, buff the rest" idea - take away NPC shields and just double their hit points.
Still think the most efficient way to fix the hyperinflation of DPS for BFAW is to simply stop Go Down Fighting (GDF) and Attack Pattern Alpha (APA) from interacting with BFAW.
GDF and APA will still boost everything else including the kitchen sink so the overall effect on tactical players should be negligible.
You've said this several times in this thread.
I have to disagree with you. Your solution is really odd. Why have APA and GDF not work on BFAW but work on CSV? The difference in DPS while buffed with GDF and APA is huge. That would pigeon hole tac captains into only cannons if they wanted their captain powers to work all the time.
I have a really open mind for this problem. I'm even for better diminishing return or a change to overcapping, but I think your idea would really hurt build options.
You mean the one and only queue where the NPC to kill has no shields and you need to do nothing but destroy that one enemy is where torpedoes are in fact the superior choice to beams with beam fire at will? Shocking.
Seems I have the ultimate "don't nerf BFAW, buff the rest" idea - take away NPC shields and just double their hit points.
Still think the most efficient way to fix the hyperinflation of DPS for BFAW is to simply stop Go Down Fighting (GDF) and Attack Pattern Alpha (APA) from interacting with BFAW.
GDF and APA will still boost everything else including the kitchen sink so the overall effect on tactical players should be negligible.
You've said this several times in this thread.
I have to disagree with you. Your solution is really odd. Why have APA and GDF not work on BFAW but work on CSV? The difference in DPS while buffed with GDF and APA is huge. That would pigeon hole tac captains into only cannons if they wanted their captain powers to work all the time.
I have a really open mind for this problem. I'm even for better diminishing return or a change to overcapping, but I think your idea would really hurt build options.
With cannons you have to fly/aim and deal with the drop-off which by itself is more than sufficient. This is not even mentioning the obvious fact that cannons are primarily spike damage and have a smaller firing arc.
If you want to "fix" BFAW then keep it stupid simple (KISS) and don't let it interact with GDF and APA.
All the other suggestions just make things unnecessarily complicated.
Letting go of the interaction between GDF and APA may be the best thing which has happened to the game in ages because it will bring about more variety in builds. Now it's 80% or more beams with BFAW.
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
From what I can recall didn't Bort tweet that faw is working as intended and working at its best for like ages so why would they change it when it's working the best it ever has done
From what I can recall didn't Bort tweet that faw is working as intended and working at its best for like ages so why would they change it when it's working the best it ever has done
The real question is: Does it take more time to change all the content to deal with the hyper inflated DPS or how one or two powers interact. The latter seems the more obvious answer and thus the road map to future change.
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
It's not just changing one how a few powers react thou it would mean a total overhaul of how them powers effect everything coding isn't just altering one or two lines etc if you mess with the coding of one interaction etc it will have a knock on effect that could mess up more than faw.
As neither one of us has access to the source code it is impossible for either of us to know if the changes are easy or not.
At first glance though removing the interaction of GDF and APA with BFAW seems the easiest fix with the least amount of potential disasters.
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
Is FAW OP? A lot of the things in this game is OP or simply duds. FAW may be ahead in some aspects compared to other skills (especially since it is so easy to use) but I don't think it really needs to be nerfed. The most fair way to change it (if the devs do change it) is to make it work on an arc around your selected target, just like all other AOE weapons abilities do. Damage-wise, it's fine IMO.
So your idea of fixing bfaw is to unintentionally nerf engineers who use it as a way to gain as much threat as possible so squishier ships like escorts and sci ship can do there job.... interesting. I agree there isn't a problem with bfaw, only the stacking of abilities that can lead it to be op.
I'm not trying to flame you btw, just pointing out a potential flaw in your idea as on my engineer pilots I use bfaw to gain aggro, if I deal more damage I wouldn't know as I don't run dps programs. I play the game to have fun, so I don't see why my engineers should be gimped in a limited firing arc to try to fix the dragon chasing dpsers and how would this gimp them, they'd still be doing the dps just in a more limited arc (which they may even prefer cause it's more focusing fire)?
I also fly an engineer setup as a support tank, and it is perfectly possible to gain aggro using FAW even if it were in a cone radius. The difference is instead of just flying nowhere you actually have to aim your broadsides to get the most coverage.
From what I can recall didn't Bort tweet that faw is working as intended and working at its best for like ages so why would they change it when it's working the best it ever has done
The real question is: Does it take more time to change all the content to deal with the hyper inflated DPS or how one or two powers interact. The latter seems the more obvious answer and thus the road map to future change.
How do you figure? DR has shown that the former is the obvious answer for cryptic.
And the amount of HP has been scaled back because a large part of the players could not meet the required DPS.
This shows that increasing the HP is a last resort and not one easily used. At the other end of the spectrum they see players solo or in a group of two race through advanced and elite content in a fraction of the time intended for that content.
This showcases the hyperinflation which is very prominent in APA/GDF boosted BFAW. Looking at the data presented simply not allowing APA and GDF to interact with BFAW fixes the problem with which the developers are faced.
It'll bring down the high end DPS players, allow maps to be played in the intended time frames and in the process stimulate more variety in builds (and hopefully reduce the amount of balance proposals).
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
Before this gains any real movement with the Dev's and i hope it doesn't, I purpose before any BFAW/APA/GDF code is altered a different change and that is not a change to BFAW directly but to Beams themselves.
Lets change all Beams firing ARC to match Cannons so instead of having a 250* firing ARC on a standard Beam it is now 45*
What would this do.
1. Beams now have a smaller ARC which will require you to move you're ship to keep a moving target in ARC. And multiple target BFAW spam is harder due to limit on the ARC. So piloting skill is a requirement and activation of buffs ect have to be timed right.
2. Beams can no longer benefit from a broadside where you can bring you're REAR weapons into ARC with FORE So just like Cannons you can only use 4 max at a time per target (Not counting the 5/3 ships)
Wait ! this sounds familiar, oh wait ! it is the 2 principle reasons Cannons are out performed by Beams. Piloting, Timing of Buff activation and Firing ARC aren't ness to use BFAW.
It would be very interesting to see how players calling for a BFAW nerf would cope with this change as its basically making Beams on par with Cannons minus the range drop off. My bet is every single one of you would call for Beams firing ARC to be reset as Beams are now useless compared to Cannons as Cannons spike damage is superior when both weapon types are matched in firing ARC.
Just out of interest lets see just how overpowered and broken BFAW truly is with those 2 changes i purposed.
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
Dead just like Beams would be as a FORE weapon if they had the same limits to Firing ARC as Cannons.
Thats the point i'm trying to get across here. Beams main selling point and biggest advantage over Cannons is the Firing ARC, which allows A. Greater coverage and more time within Beams firing cycles and opportunity to restart firing cycle and B. Broadsiding a target allows if power is not an issue 8 weapons of the same strength, type and mod to fired at multiple or single targets compared to Cannons 4/5 depending on ship.
BFAW isn't ness stronger than CRF/CSV it just has better ARC coverage and requires less skill to use. put Beams into the same firing ARC as Cannons and Cannons will wipe the floor with Beams
However beams aren't going to be downgraded and there are problems with the high end DPS builds racing through content in a fraction of the intended time.
With that in mind BFAW itself needs to be adjusted to allow all content to be played within roughly the time frame set for it, but that would increase the existing gap between science/engineers and tactical since BFAW is currently their only viable option
The other, more viable, option is to remove the interaction with BFAW which allows the high end DPS runs. I have several tactical characters myself and i understand that people don't like to lose their toys (just look at the recent kemocite uproar) but overall this solution has too many benefits not to be considered.
Edit: tactics > tactical. Overlooked that mistake.
Post edited by questerius on
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
From what I can recall didn't Bort tweet that faw is working as intended and working at its best for like ages so why would they change it when it's working the best it ever has done
Same thing that he said about plasma embassy consoles... twice. At least FaW got an overall buff with them now
EDIT: Gotta love those 45K DPS plasma explosions. No, I'm not hatin', just stating a fact that some may be missing; that the interaction of other abilities, powers, bonuses, and procs with FaW should be looked at as well.
there are several issues within the game. Firstly, the difference in ability between weak and strong players is far too big. Additionally, Cryptic keep removing more and more Elite content, meaning strong players have to play advanced content, which they are clearly too advanced for. At the same time, players are saying the same content is too difficult, and therefore Cryptic are removing the failure conditions. How can something be too easy and too hard all at the same time?
As far as BFAW goes, sure it's one of the strongest abilities in the game. It's an AOE ability in a game where most objectives require you to do AOE damage. That's the number 1 reason it's so strong. The next reason it's far superior to something like CSV is that CSV sits 1 rank higher and has a shorter cycle. The first thing I'd want to be addressed is for cannon bridge officer abilities to sit at the same rank as their beam counterparts.
I don't believe in things being nerfed without all other possibilities and implications being looked at. Making other things stronger in be in line with BFAW would benefit far more of the playerbase and allow for more build diversity, which would mean people are more able to have fun without sacrificing too much from a DPS standpoint (because ultimately that's what the content requires for the most part). I would also strongly urge the devs to make a serious effort to re-introduce elite content back into the game (NWS and all the Borg queues) that aren't just advanced with increased hit points. Elite should require strategy and teamwork, as well as the ability to blow things up effectively.
Still think the most efficient way to fix the hyperinflation of DPS for BFAW is to simply stop Go Down Fighting (GDF) and Attack Pattern Alpha (APA) from interacting with BFAW.
GDF and APA will still boost everything else including the kitchen sink so the overall effect on tactical players should be negligible.
APA and GDF are part of the 'meta' problem of this game: namely, that Tact trumps everything (inherently so). Which is to say, even a good Engi or Sci ability still serves to boost your Tactical advantage (aka, to do moar DPS), so that every Tactical Captain ability is effectively a Tactical meta-power, superimposed over everything else, as it were. So, yeah, you're doing your cute Sci stuff, and along comes a Tactical Captain doing precisely your thing... plus APA as a meta-boost to all your powers.
So, yeah, now we have Tactical Captains with Reciprocity, getting to reduce the cd on APA and, worst, TI (effectively creating a cd reducer inside a cd reducer). Those are the things that need to be nerfed, badly. Leave BFAW alone.
So, yeah, now we have Tactical Captains with Reciprocity, getting to reduce the cd on APA and, worst, TI (effectively creating a cd reducer inside a cd reducer). Those are the things that need to be nerfed, badly. Leave BFAW alone.
Reciprocity does not reduce CD on APA, you're confusing it with AHOD. The interaction of the two certainly lets you push more buttons, though.
Regardless of if we think that beam:faw should be, or should not be nerfed. We can all agree a large amount, if not all, of the of the non-tactical career's abilities could use either a buff or rework to become more viable as stand-alone abilities. I see alot of issue that some abilities go completely unused by large group of players out of a feel of them being gimped, and that ships which might utilize such abilities more effectively are shelved to push a more profitable ship class, such as how science ships themselves are large seen as unprofitable an so it is rarer to see one released compared to cruisers an escorts.
Bringing in torpedoes, cannons and sci stuff more in line with the current options to stack damage with fire at will is what we need.
Then we're just going around in circles, aren't we?
Torps and Cannons were awesome options as were Sci abilities.
Even if they were brought back to relevancy, the Beams-or-Nothing crowd would demand an edge over the aforementioned and we'll be right back to the current situation.
IMO, the Devs are the real problem.
They want this and there isn't anything we can do about it.
NO to ARC RIP KDF and PvP 2014-07-17 Season 9.5 - Death by Dev
Bringing in torpedoes, cannons and sci stuff more in line with the current options to stack damage with fire at will is what we need.
Then we're just going around in circles, aren't we?
Torps and Cannons were awesome options as were Sci abilities.
Even if they were brought back to relevancy, the Beams-or-Nothing crowd would demand an edge over the aforementioned and we'll be right back to the current situation.
IMO, the Devs are the real problem.
They want this and there isn't anything we can do about it.
Speak for yourself on that one. If cannons/torpedoes were buffed I'd have no complaints even if they outperformed Beams. Only time I'd ask fr parity is if pve got a revamp and it ended up hurting beams as much as it has hurt cannon builds. But i wouldn't be crying for a nerf to Cannons or Torpedos because my preferred weapon of choice wasn't as powerful.
Cannons just need the range damage drop off reduced. The reduction as is, is too great to be effective. Especially when flying at full throttle you only get one volley at target at close range. If you allowed higher damage farther away you could probably get two volleys off before flying past a target.
Only reason I want FAW nerfed, is the fact it's causing RAMPANT power creep. Along with newer ships coming off the line it's just getting out of control and it's leaving cannons and torps in the dust as comparable forms of doing damage. Because there are two options, make torpedoes and beams STRONGER to match which increases power creep, or hammer down the nail sticking out the farthest to where the others are.
And I ask you all this, which is easier to do?
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
I tend to stay away from cannon builds because of the narrow arc used in cannon builds. it doesnt suit my purpose or my style when i can just sit there and bfaw, a2b, eptw and so on with half the focus it would of taken otherwise.
if bfaw goes away, then i have to try make torpedo boats a more viable alternative, that or leave the game, as if i have any interest to try get back into it in any serious capacity at this time.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
I do agree that the damage dropoff for cannon fire should be reduced and that regular dual cannons should have a wider arc, like 90 degrees. Bring cannon and torp damage ability up to match FaW damage.
Now a LTS and loving it.
Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.
I have come to the conclusion that I have a memory like Etch-A-Sketch. I shake my head and forget everything.
There appears to be a tone that if BFAW isn't nerfed then the DEV's will give us another Delta Rising. This simply will not happen as Delta Rising damaged the game immensely. They are not going to make that mistake again. I repeat they are not going to make that mistake again.
Comments
Still think the most efficient way to fix the hyperinflation of DPS for BFAW is to simply stop Go Down Fighting (GDF) and Attack Pattern Alpha (APA) from interacting with BFAW.
GDF and APA will still boost everything else including the kitchen sink so the overall effect on tactical players should be negligible.
You've said this several times in this thread.
I have to disagree with you. Your solution is really odd. Why have APA and GDF not work on BFAW but work on CSV? The difference in DPS while buffed with GDF and APA is huge. That would pigeon hole tac captains into only cannons if they wanted their captain powers to work all the time.
I have a really open mind for this problem. I'm even for better diminishing return or a change to overcapping, but I think your idea would really hurt build options.
With cannons you have to fly/aim and deal with the drop-off which by itself is more than sufficient. This is not even mentioning the obvious fact that cannons are primarily spike damage and have a smaller firing arc.
If you want to "fix" BFAW then keep it stupid simple (KISS) and don't let it interact with GDF and APA.
All the other suggestions just make things unnecessarily complicated.
Letting go of the interaction between GDF and APA may be the best thing which has happened to the game in ages because it will bring about more variety in builds. Now it's 80% or more beams with BFAW.
The real question is: Does it take more time to change all the content to deal with the hyper inflated DPS or how one or two powers interact. The latter seems the more obvious answer and thus the road map to future change.
At first glance though removing the interaction of GDF and APA with BFAW seems the easiest fix with the least amount of potential disasters.
I also fly an engineer setup as a support tank, and it is perfectly possible to gain aggro using FAW even if it were in a cone radius. The difference is instead of just flying nowhere you actually have to aim your broadsides to get the most coverage.
| USS Curiosity - Pathfinder | USS Rift - Eternal |
The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
And the amount of HP has been scaled back because a large part of the players could not meet the required DPS.
This shows that increasing the HP is a last resort and not one easily used. At the other end of the spectrum they see players solo or in a group of two race through advanced and elite content in a fraction of the time intended for that content.
This showcases the hyperinflation which is very prominent in APA/GDF boosted BFAW. Looking at the data presented simply not allowing APA and GDF to interact with BFAW fixes the problem with which the developers are faced.
It'll bring down the high end DPS players, allow maps to be played in the intended time frames and in the process stimulate more variety in builds (and hopefully reduce the amount of balance proposals).
Lets change all Beams firing ARC to match Cannons so instead of having a 250* firing ARC on a standard Beam it is now 45*
What would this do.
1. Beams now have a smaller ARC which will require you to move you're ship to keep a moving target in ARC. And multiple target BFAW spam is harder due to limit on the ARC. So piloting skill is a requirement and activation of buffs ect have to be timed right.
2. Beams can no longer benefit from a broadside where you can bring you're REAR weapons into ARC with FORE So just like Cannons you can only use 4 max at a time per target (Not counting the 5/3 ships)
Wait ! this sounds familiar, oh wait ! it is the 2 principle reasons Cannons are out performed by Beams. Piloting, Timing of Buff activation and Firing ARC aren't ness to use BFAW.
It would be very interesting to see how players calling for a BFAW nerf would cope with this change as its basically making Beams on par with Cannons minus the range drop off. My bet is every single one of you would call for Beams firing ARC to be reset as Beams are now useless compared to Cannons as Cannons spike damage is superior when both weapon types are matched in firing ARC.
Just out of interest lets see just how overpowered and broken BFAW truly is with those 2 changes i purposed.
Dead just like Beams would be as a FORE weapon if they had the same limits to Firing ARC as Cannons.
Thats the point i'm trying to get across here. Beams main selling point and biggest advantage over Cannons is the Firing ARC, which allows A. Greater coverage and more time within Beams firing cycles and opportunity to restart firing cycle and B. Broadsiding a target allows if power is not an issue 8 weapons of the same strength, type and mod to fired at multiple or single targets compared to Cannons 4/5 depending on ship.
BFAW isn't ness stronger than CRF/CSV it just has better ARC coverage and requires less skill to use. put Beams into the same firing ARC as Cannons and Cannons will wipe the floor with Beams
With that in mind BFAW itself needs to be adjusted to allow all content to be played within roughly the time frame set for it, but that would increase the existing gap between science/engineers and tactical since BFAW is currently their only viable option
The other, more viable, option is to remove the interaction with BFAW which allows the high end DPS runs. I have several tactical characters myself and i understand that people don't like to lose their toys (just look at the recent kemocite uproar) but overall this solution has too many benefits not to be considered.
Edit: tactics > tactical. Overlooked that mistake.
Same thing that he said about plasma embassy consoles... twice. At least FaW got an overall buff with them now
EDIT: Gotta love those 45K DPS plasma explosions. No, I'm not hatin', just stating a fact that some may be missing; that the interaction of other abilities, powers, bonuses, and procs with FaW should be looked at as well.
No, I am NOT calling for a nerf to FaW.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
As far as BFAW goes, sure it's one of the strongest abilities in the game. It's an AOE ability in a game where most objectives require you to do AOE damage. That's the number 1 reason it's so strong. The next reason it's far superior to something like CSV is that CSV sits 1 rank higher and has a shorter cycle. The first thing I'd want to be addressed is for cannon bridge officer abilities to sit at the same rank as their beam counterparts.
I don't believe in things being nerfed without all other possibilities and implications being looked at. Making other things stronger in be in line with BFAW would benefit far more of the playerbase and allow for more build diversity, which would mean people are more able to have fun without sacrificing too much from a DPS standpoint (because ultimately that's what the content requires for the most part). I would also strongly urge the devs to make a serious effort to re-introduce elite content back into the game (NWS and all the Borg queues) that aren't just advanced with increased hit points. Elite should require strategy and teamwork, as well as the ability to blow things up effectively.
APA and GDF are part of the 'meta' problem of this game: namely, that Tact trumps everything (inherently so). Which is to say, even a good Engi or Sci ability still serves to boost your Tactical advantage (aka, to do moar DPS), so that every Tactical Captain ability is effectively a Tactical meta-power, superimposed over everything else, as it were. So, yeah, you're doing your cute Sci stuff, and along comes a Tactical Captain doing precisely your thing... plus APA as a meta-boost to all your powers.
So, yeah, now we have Tactical Captains with Reciprocity, getting to reduce the cd on APA and, worst, TI (effectively creating a cd reducer inside a cd reducer). Those are the things that need to be nerfed, badly. Leave BFAW alone.
Yes, AHOD, of course. My bad.
Then we're just going around in circles, aren't we?
Torps and Cannons were awesome options as were Sci abilities.
Even if they were brought back to relevancy, the Beams-or-Nothing crowd would demand an edge over the aforementioned and we'll be right back to the current situation.
IMO, the Devs are the real problem.
They want this and there isn't anything we can do about it.
RIP KDF and PvP 2014-07-17 Season 9.5 - Death by Dev
Speak for yourself on that one. If cannons/torpedoes were buffed I'd have no complaints even if they outperformed Beams. Only time I'd ask fr parity is if pve got a revamp and it ended up hurting beams as much as it has hurt cannon builds. But i wouldn't be crying for a nerf to Cannons or Torpedos because my preferred weapon of choice wasn't as powerful.
And I ask you all this, which is easier to do?
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
if bfaw goes away, then i have to try make torpedo boats a more viable alternative, that or leave the game, as if i have any interest to try get back into it in any serious capacity at this time.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
I do agree that the damage dropoff for cannon fire should be reduced and that regular dual cannons should have a wider arc, like 90 degrees. Bring cannon and torp damage ability up to match FaW damage.