And that bit at the end where he said "the hybrid is Me," it's just this second dawned on me (thanks to Twitter) what he means by that
I really hope not. We know her origins and her motives, a retcon like this only six or so episodes later would make no sense.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
It was an interesting episode and Capaldi really showed his acting chops
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
As recent Whovian, I love this new doctor. Loved last night's ep as well.
I wonder how his confessional got from earth to Gallifrey? Didn't he give it to Ashildr before he was transported?
I assume she's working for the Time Lords and put the dial in the transporter or something. I think she's in the 'next time' trailer.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
A billion dead doctors, always resurrecting. I bet his head exploded because of all the self proclaimed cleverness he put into it
It was indeed a nice circular episode and I want to point out that Capaldi did a brilliant job and showed marvelous acting skills here, but in regards to the doctor I find it curious that he'll always draw the same conclusions the same way to let it play out like groundhog day. I have a few problems with that, actually. I draw the conclusion that the world of doctor has to work with predetermination and "fate" and that the doctor's brain basically works like a programmed computer. No free will at all, just triggers and responses (one could argue that we work like that but I would argue that it doesn't play out like it was depicted). My wife suggested that a side character trapped in an eternal circle and the doctor being the one breaking them free would work better and I agree in so far as the episode kinda "disenchanted" the doctor. So really it's a mixed bag for me, really enjoyed it while watching it but it falls apart the longer I think of it. The previous episodes don't, actually. Anyway, I'm thrilled and afraid both for seeing Galifrey in the next episode. It could swing in both directions.
I am, however, maybe one of the few souls watching that's actually not thrilled to see "me" make another appearance. She annoys me (and I don't watch game of thrones).
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I was enjoying the mystery and the whole episode up until the time loop bit. Then it went a bit daft, but I'll forgive it if next week is as awesome as it looks. Though I did get excited when the Citadal was revealled (fixed after the Time War I note). Ooohhh, I forgot she was called Me. That makes sense. I was trying to reconcile it with the Eight's little joke about him being half human.
It makes sense for the Doctor to keep doing the same thing over and over without it being fate or pre determined or whatever. The rooms are constantly resetting back to original, so he would always be experiancing the identical things, so he would obviously go the exact same route. However, why didn't the barrier in Room 12 also reset? And why was the picture of Clara so old, unless it was created old. Why didn't he attack the barrier with that spade? Surely it would have been better than punching it?
*******************************************
A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
Why would he react the exact same way (and I mean exact as in coreography exact) just because the rooms reset? It makes no sense unless you actually apply the logic that a being only reacts through stimulus and reaction and always the exact same way (yes, technically we do as I said above, but not in the sense of "place stimuli here and it will trigger the reaction in the exact same manner as if one would running on trails"). The depiction suggested there is absolutely no difference between the runs aside from him interpreting the passed time on the stars, every single breath is otherwise identical. It's a bit too far fetched in my opinion.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
There are two main things that dictate how we react: Outside stimuli and our own experiances. The outside stimuli is reset constantly. Normally the Doctor would not react the same way every time to this, as he would have expanded his own memories. But he was getting reset every time as well. It was an endless loop because there was nothing to change either of those factors. If there was a second person also getting stuck in the loop, then maybe there could be a minor shift that leads to something else. But it's just him, alone, with nothing else. And he kept getting reset as well. The only thing that changed was the moving of the stars, which made no impact on anything. Though his first couple of hundred years probably didn't have the realisation of the passage of time, so maybe those early ones were different and he never found Room 12 to begin with. And at least one of those Doctors was running around butt naked. One of them had to take his wet clothes off first and leave them for the next one. So there were changes early on, we just joined him at a point where he had settled into the pattern.
If it was like that TNG episode, where he was actually caught in a time loop and there was echos from the previous trips altering the outside stimuli, then yes, he should have changed his reasoning.
*******************************************
A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
This is assuming that there is only one way a person can react to a specific stimulus, saying when all requirements are met the reaction of the individual is predetermined and always the same. There is absolutely no way to actually test the hypothesis in real life so it's all speculation, but I find the statement about the who universe misplaced in spirit of the show. It's just a concept or a reasoning I can't agree with or better said I find unplausible.
EDIT:
To clarify, we aren't talking about a time-loop as this is not what was shown. It's not a already past occurence repeating itself, the advancing stars are proof of that. It is literally a new doctor every time, replicated from the snapshot saved in the transporter. The doctor that is in the next episode is not the same person we saw in the episode before, that one died - not looped, or reseted but ceased to exist. It's literally a new person, a clone maybe, but a new person. It might be that I didn't understand a crucial part of the whole plot or the device used, but this is how I see it.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
No, you're fully right in how it happened. I was just using a time loop as reference in my blabbering, but it's not a time loop. It's teleporting in a new version of him as stored when he first arrived. Like the Doctor said, it's like a highly advanced 3D printer.
Honestly, I think a person in an identical mind set/emotional state/physical state/memory set/and so forth will react the exact same way to the exact same situation every time. If there was a tiny minute change in the situation, then the person would react differently. That's why I think the first group of Doctor's to come through DID react differently. It was only when he noticed the stars had changed position did he get stuck in the cycle that he did. And his dry clothes started appearing hung up to dry in front of the fire. He still knew the rooms reset, he still figured out the teleporter could create a duplicate, but he didn't go after Room 12 for a number of years.
My other question is, what did he think was in his confession dial?
*******************************************
A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
I'll expand more after Casualty's finished but I think I missed the point. It seems to me that, if the Time Web didn't unravel then the Doctor didn't go too far.
But bloody hell did I love seeing the old season 1-4 console room.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
I'll expand more after Casualty's finished but I think I missed the point. It seems to me that, if the Time Web didn't unravel then the Doctor didn't go too far.
But bloody hell did I love seeing the old season 1-4 console room.
What this episode means is that the previous series was about a man trying to keep a girlfriend who had grown past him and the increasingly bizarre things he did to keep her until she finally took control of the situation and kicked him to the curb.
An interesting take on the Doctor/ companion dynamic but I'm hoping the Adventure Time feel to the Xmas episode brings back a bit of balance to the character.
What this episode means is that the previous series was about a man trying to keep a girlfriend who had grown past him and the increasingly bizarre things he did to keep her until she finally took control of the situation and kicked him to the curb.
An interesting take on the Doctor/ companion dynamic but I'm hoping the Adventure Time feel to the Xmas episode brings back a bit of balance to the character.
Except it's hammered home that the two of them egg each other on and push each other to the extremes, that's the point of the hybrid (I think). It's clearly not one sided.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
It's a super unhealthy relationship for sure, however...
Clara's death was something she chose to do. She is moving on from him in the most final sense possible. That's why she wasn't happy with him when he brought her back and decided to force him to move on when she tried to erase his memory. She could see that he was pretty unhinged by that point.
Her becoming "Doctor-like" over the last two series was her growing. Him being willing to let the whole world burn every time he thought she would go was him regressing into something unpleasant.
Also, as far as the B Plot of
ousting the High Council and Rassilon,
it seemed like an afterthought and in a universe filled with timey-wimey
going to Galifrey
didn't seem needed. It was there because all Moffat-written finales solve long dangling plot threads in passing. It's my biggest problem with him as a writer and show-runner.
But this is just geeky nitpicking. Overall I enjoyed it and the series this year. Capaldi has proved himself as the title character IMHO.
A billion dead doctors, always resurrecting. I bet his head exploded because of all the self proclaimed cleverness he put into it
It was indeed a nice circular episode and I want to point out that Capaldi did a brilliant job and showed marvelous acting skills here, but in regards to the doctor I find it curious that he'll always draw the same conclusions the same way to let it play out like groundhog day. I have a few problems with that, actually. I draw the conclusion that the world of doctor has to work with predetermination and "fate" and that the doctor's brain basically works like a programmed computer. No free will at all, just triggers and responses (one could argue that we work like that but I would argue that it doesn't play out like it was depicted). My wife suggested that a side character trapped in an eternal circle and the doctor being the one breaking them free would work better and I agree in so far as the episode kinda "disenchanted" the doctor. So really it's a mixed bag for me, really enjoyed it while watching it but it falls apart the longer I think of it. The previous episodes don't, actually. Anyway, I'm thrilled and afraid both for seeing Galifrey in the next episode. It could swing in both directions.
I am, however, maybe one of the few souls watching that's actually not thrilled to see "me" make another appearance. She annoys me (and I don't watch game of thrones).
That's how I feel about Clara! :P I don't watch Game of Thrones either but I do like Ashildr's character.
The whole, save Clara TRIBBLE, has long gotten old! This totally took away from what was fantastic about the episode, at least for me. I had hoped Capaldi would have kept the new TARDIS with the classic interior and the futuristic outside before it turned into a stupid diner. Clara and Ashildr running around in a TARDIS has to be one of the biggest dislikes of Capaldi's run for me. I couldn't stand any of the series with the 3 Doctor's before capaldi so rubbish like this is turning me off series 10 before it has even started!
That's how I feel about Clara! :P I don't watch Game of Thrones either but I do like Ashildr's character.
The whole, save Clara TRIBBLE, has long gotten old! This totally took away from what was fantastic about the episode, at least for me. I had hoped Capaldi would have kept the new TARDIS with the classic interior and the futuristic outside
Totally agree with you there, especially seeing a TARDIS default setting
I would have exploded with joy if the Doctor had kept that console room (or even that TARDIS) for a bit.
But I just think he does.
Lets say in a few millennia Clara decides it's time for her to die, so she parks the TARDIS she stole back on Galifray goes and grabs some red robes then bobs back down to the place she stored it originally and redirects the First Doctor and Susan to take it instead of the one they were initially going for.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Looking forward to the Christmas special this year, The Doctor and River back together for one more adventure.
Should be a fun episode
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Given that he had gone coo-coo bonkers in regards to Clara I'm thinking the clearing house was a means to an end... or even a side effect. Note that it was the military that rebelled first. He just used it to get what he wanted.
Comments
none were needed, he just reset himself using the version of himself stored in the teleporters memory banks when he first teleported in.
I really hope not. We know her origins and her motives, a retcon like this only six or so episodes later would make no sense.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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It was an interesting episode and Capaldi really showed his acting chops
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
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raeat
I assume she's working for the Time Lords and put the dial in the transporter or something. I think she's in the 'next time' trailer.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
It was indeed a nice circular episode and I want to point out that Capaldi did a brilliant job and showed marvelous acting skills here, but in regards to the doctor I find it curious that he'll always draw the same conclusions the same way to let it play out like groundhog day. I have a few problems with that, actually. I draw the conclusion that the world of doctor has to work with predetermination and "fate" and that the doctor's brain basically works like a programmed computer. No free will at all, just triggers and responses (one could argue that we work like that but I would argue that it doesn't play out like it was depicted). My wife suggested that a side character trapped in an eternal circle and the doctor being the one breaking them free would work better and I agree in so far as the episode kinda "disenchanted" the doctor. So really it's a mixed bag for me, really enjoyed it while watching it but it falls apart the longer I think of it. The previous episodes don't, actually. Anyway, I'm thrilled and afraid both for seeing Galifrey in the next episode. It could swing in both directions.
I am, however, maybe one of the few souls watching that's actually not thrilled to see "me" make another appearance. She annoys me (and I don't watch game of thrones).
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It makes sense for the Doctor to keep doing the same thing over and over without it being fate or pre determined or whatever. The rooms are constantly resetting back to original, so he would always be experiancing the identical things, so he would obviously go the exact same route. However, why didn't the barrier in Room 12 also reset? And why was the picture of Clara so old, unless it was created old. Why didn't he attack the barrier with that spade? Surely it would have been better than punching it?
A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
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If it was like that TNG episode, where he was actually caught in a time loop and there was echos from the previous trips altering the outside stimuli, then yes, he should have changed his reasoning.
A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
EDIT:
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Honestly, I think a person in an identical mind set/emotional state/physical state/memory set/and so forth will react the exact same way to the exact same situation every time. If there was a tiny minute change in the situation, then the person would react differently. That's why I think the first group of Doctor's to come through DID react differently. It was only when he noticed the stars had changed position did he get stuck in the cycle that he did. And his dry clothes started appearing hung up to dry in front of the fire. He still knew the rooms reset, he still figured out the teleporter could create a duplicate, but he didn't go after Room 12 for a number of years.
My other question is, what did he think was in his confession dial?
A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
But bloody hell did I love seeing the old season 1-4 console room.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
And the new sonic. Have to say, I like.
And a perfect send off for Clara too
An interesting take on the Doctor/ companion dynamic but I'm hoping the Adventure Time feel to the Xmas episode brings back a bit of balance to the character.
Except it's hammered home that the two of them egg each other on and push each other to the extremes, that's the point of the hybrid (I think). It's clearly not one sided.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Her becoming "Doctor-like" over the last two series was her growing. Him being willing to let the whole world burn every time he thought she would go was him regressing into something unpleasant.
Also, as far as the B Plot of
But this is just geeky nitpicking. Overall I enjoyed it and the series this year. Capaldi has proved himself as the title character IMHO.
That's how I feel about Clara! :P I don't watch Game of Thrones either but I do like Ashildr's character.
The whole, save Clara TRIBBLE, has long gotten old! This totally took away from what was fantastic about the episode, at least for me. I had hoped Capaldi would have kept the new TARDIS with the classic interior and the futuristic outside before it turned into a stupid diner. Clara and Ashildr running around in a TARDIS has to be one of the biggest dislikes of Capaldi's run for me. I couldn't stand any of the series with the 3 Doctor's before capaldi so rubbish like this is turning me off series 10 before it has even started!
I believe, that was a
But I just think he does.
Lets say in a few millennia Clara decides it's time for her to die, so she parks the TARDIS she stole back on Galifray goes and grabs some red robes then bobs back down to the place she stored it originally and redirects the First Doctor and Susan to take it instead of the one they were initially going for.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Should be a fun episode
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius