I suppose the problem with T5s, T5Us, and T6s is when certain trolls decide to warp out of STFs at the sight of a T5 or T5U, something they know has no T6 version yet. Unfortunately this perceived inferiority generates an actual artificially imposed and recognized inferiority when more and more people decide to Tier check their surrounding teammates (the word teammates could hardly be a looser term in such a situation if I tried) With all the firestorms between power creep avoidance advocates and quality increase advcates, I'm guessing something like this was bound to happen. I can see the side of the argument that people should not be coerced into a T6 ship because everyone else has one, and also that they should not be pushed out of advanced because for whatever reason they can't get one. I also can see the side of the argument that if they are going to raise the prices of ships, and most of them being ships we already have, it better be worth something more than slapping a T6 sticker on the side of the hull and calling it new. If they start releasing a round of T7 ships, God help us all. Or should I say God help you all, as I am not going to be around to do all this all over again.
Your chip analogy is still off the mark. Cryptic didn't mislead anyone, suggesting that the T6 Defiant was going to be anything more than it is. Players had unrealistic expectations, and are unhappy the ship didn't measure up to their dreams.
The chips come in a new shiny bag, but at no point did they say the chips were going to be anything drastically better than the original chips. And for months, each variety of chip they gave new packaging to was only given a small change.
People argued for over a year what a T6 Defiant would look like. Frequently people would point out that the Phantom basically was the T6 Defiant. When we finally do get the T6 Defiant, it's basically a watered down Phantom with most of it's features stripped away and nothing, absolutely nothing to show for it except a healthier HP pool.
Eh, I guess count me in with the part of the playerbase that expected this. The trend's there, and every time a new T6 ship is released (which again, players screamed at Cryptic not to make better for reasons of power creep) there are going to be screams over it being underpowered compared to something else, or not enough of an improvement over T5.
It's just sad that this gets blamed on the Devs not caring, not listening, making a cash-grab, or whatever else negative, when the Devs have tried so very hard to make their intentions with T6 clear from the beginning.
Your chip analogy is still off the mark. Cryptic didn't mislead anyone, suggesting that the T6 Defiant was going to be anything more than it is. Players had unrealistic expectations, and are unhappy the ship didn't measure up to their dreams.
The chips come in a new shiny bag, but at no point did they say the chips were going to be anything drastically better than the original chips. And for months, each variety of chip they gave new packaging to was only given a small change.
People argued for over a year what a T6 Defiant would look like. Frequently people would point out that the Phantom basically was the T6 Defiant. When we finally do get the T6 Defiant, it's basically a watered down Phantom with most of it's features stripped away and nothing, absolutely nothing to show for it except a healthier HP pool.
So? As Chip and several others have pointed out.... this follows the established plan of how they do T6 versions of T5 ships....expecting something else is unrealistic.
Just got the T6 BoP and I'm liking it so far. It's too bad we won't be able to use the B'rotlh skin though but the console's not bad.
From what I've seen, it fires out like a torp spread that hits a singular target, though don't quote me on that. The torpedoes seem to load as fast as a torpedo cooldown until it reaches its maximum 6 so just keep firing away whenever you get an opener in the enemy's shields.
I'll admit it's taken a while for me to get back into BoP piloting. These things are squishy but fun.
Who cares? They are sub optimal by any standard. A Very Rare DHC does approximately 397 damage. Quad Cannons top out at about 287. And ARC DHC's have the same or better damage than the DHC with a 90 degree firing arc. DHCs of any type also use less energy that quads. The whole quad cannon discussion is a waste of type, pixels and mental energy until they are made worth while.
Second, the Kor of the problem.
I use my Enhanced Battle Cloak (EBC) Fleet B'rel with a specialized captain built around sending gifts of stealthy torpedo death. It is not for the weak. I die a lot even with the best set up. Sometimes even my own 'splosions get me killed. Fortunately, I am immortal and cannot really be killed. I will just fire one volley, die and come back. Totally destroys suspension of disbelief, but hey, that is the life of a Fleet B'rel driver. And it isn't the way it should be.
If the T6 Kor is going to be released as is, there is no point in buying it. The EBC is mean to be use with torps and mines and the occasional science shenanigans. But with cloak being so easy to interrupt and that brief moment of visibility and a paper thin hull, the ship is not viable for advanced or elite queues. Hull health should have been buffed to at least that of a raptor. At LEAST! Following the purpose of a torp boat, the tac consoles should have been 5, not 4. To do significant damage without first taking down shields the total damage to kill needs to be in an amount that shield bleed through posts a real risk to every target. To do this, skill levels for the captain need to minimize energy weapons and maximize projectiles. As many torp and mine buffs as exist in the game need to be used on the EBC ship to help accomplish that objective. There is no point in using energy weapons as other ship designs/classes (raptors, escorts, battle cruisers) do the job better and have the hull and Boff abilities to make them better at it. The Kor as presented does none of these. It is still a ship where you fly very fast, hit and fade away, and hope like hell you don't lose your timing for even a moment. I already have that with the current ship. Improvements need to be made for survivability and to fit the role for which the ship is meant to be used.
Third, spurious arguments about cloaks,
At this point in the game, IMO, whether the Valiant gets or does not get a battle cloak or whether it is integral or not is really not all that important. DS9 was what year? 2390 something? Technology advances. It's 2410 or later. Nothing stands still. We have now faced and fought the Iconians, something no one from any of the old series would have even conceived and likely would have driven them to their knees in fear. Further, we did so as allies where no one would have seen the Romulan, Klingon and Federation super powers in the past. Weapons development would have been seen as the most important issue to preserve everyone against the Iconians. Old treaties about cloaking tech are moot points. STO is not Star Trek. Cryptic is making their own ships, their own stories, and STO looks very little like the original franchises.
All this said, so, developers, what about that Kor? Do you want me to buy it or not? If so, the second point above. Thank you for your time.
I remain a loyal follower of the Empire and hope we can do business again in the future.
Player and forumite formerly known as FEELTHETHUNDER
]So? As Chip and several others have pointed out.... this follows the established plan of how they do T6 versions of T5 ships....expecting something else is unrealistic.
Except the other T6 versions of T5 ships compensated for deficiencies in their predecessors.
The Andromeda and Yamato gained Lt. Com Tactical stations. People were crying for YEARS for the Galaxy to get that seat and they FINALLY got it, and there was much rejoicing. Hardly anyone cried about the update. No one derided them for not being Command Battlecruisers, at worst people will lament that the Yamato and Andromeda are too similar (although they are in fact fairly different).
Next you have the Hestia. Initially outrage aside, acquiring a Lt. Com Engineer seat was well received, and the Command abilities, for whatever they're worth, make it unique among Escorts. Not to mention that if you gotta have a Hybrid seat, you basically want it to be for an Engineering slot.
The Alita, like the Valiant it gained a Lt. Universal seat instead of a Lt. Com station, but unlike the Valiant, the Hybrid seat consumed an Engineering slot. And even if the change is not significant, the fact is that the Alita still retains a hangar, making it unique among T6 Escorts.
Admittedly, the Pathfinder is a bit of a dud. Like the Valiant it has to compete with an Intelligence ship that is flat out better in every way. Still, it is one of only 3 T6 Science ships available in the C-Store.
Finally, the Resolute. Admittedly, people would have preferred the Ensign slot be universal, but people were satisfied that after the Andromeda, they got a vanilla Fed Cruiser that was a tad on the tactical side of things, a bit faster than the norm, but otherwise still a Fed Cruiser. The Lt. Com Engineering Hybrid again making for a good upgrade.
And honestly, the Valiant is a victim of the Defiant's lineage. People have derided the ship for it's hang ups for a long time. The cloaking console that has no business being a console. The 5th tac slot that requires a Fleet Module. The excessive number of tactical seats. The relatively low speed that is not compensated for with bridge officer abilities in either science or engineering. The ship has been plagued with problems for as long as the Galaxy and Galaxy-X had been.
Basically everything wrong with the T5U Defiant is still there. All of the original problems, all of the deficiencies. Only now there's more competition. Now there's the Phantom that's like a stick in the eye to everyone that wanted a half-decent Defiant Escort.
The ships all work well as torpedo-centric boats, using the torp console for that sexy single-target burst damage.
Kor is a bit too fragile, but then again, it's a Raider and Raiders always were fragile in exchange for massive flexibility. I kind of wish they (Raiders in general) sacrificed a Universal seat (if they had 1 non-universal) or two (if they're pure Universal) for a Fixed seat in exchange for a bit more health/durability. The -1 ability is still fine.
Malem is fun just running around wild with torps everywhere. Unfortunately, I do need the Terran Munitions Console and Terran Traits to really make more use of it. As well, the Reman/Romulan HY Plasma-boosting bonus is in need of a buff to its HY Plasma Torp boosts.
Anyone have an idea when the Valiant might actually be put up for sale? A week? A month? "It's Still In Development -- Check Back Regularly"? Announcements are welcome, but tentative release dates are helpful.
Its on an "Introductory Offer" sale now, from release to Monday 10 Pacific time it is 2500z per and 5000z bundle. After that you'll have to wait until xmas or 2016 for a regular 20% sale that will include it.
The ships all work well as torpedo-centric boats, using the torp console for that sexy single-target burst damage.
Kor is a bit too fragile, but then again, it's a Raider and Raiders always were fragile in exchange for massive flexibility. I kind of wish they (Raiders in general) sacrificed a Universal seat (if they had 1 non-universal) or two (if they're pure Universal) for a Fixed seat in exchange for a bit more health/durability. The -1 ability is still fine.
Malem is fun just running around wild with torps everywhere. Unfortunately, I do need the Terran Munitions Console and Terran Traits to really make more use of it. As well, the Reman/Romulan HY Plasma-boosting bonus is in need of a buff to its HY Plasma Torp boosts.
They have 4 universals instead of the usual 5 assigned seats. Price for flexibility? Paid in full. As for more health and durability, that's why I have the pilot raptors.
I honestly with the track record as it is how possibly someone is going to defend that high horse its been beaten enough as it is. I agree with the cryptic loving fan bois though. I mean how could you possibly think that a T6 ship would be any better than your T5 obsolete ship. The thought is so beyond anything anyone could possibly rationally expect.
Personally I would have been upset if all the b'rels bugs were not carried over to the T6 b'rel it would break the tradition we have with Cryptic with the KDF. I mean where is our trailer of our new T6 b'rel blowing up a planet? Come on guys get your act together!
I honestly with the track record as it is how possibly someone is going to defend that high horse its been beaten enough as it is. I agree with the cryptic loving fan bois though. I mean how could you possibly think that a T6 ship would be any better than your T5 obsolete ship. The thought is so beyond anything anyone could possibly rationally expect.
Personally I would have been upset if all the b'rels bugs were not carried over to the T6 b'rel it would break the tradition we have with Cryptic with the KDF. I mean where is our trailer of our new T6 b'rel blowing up a planet? Come on guys get your act together!
Funy and Sad at the same time, cause very True, the moment you say but but...please a little bit more because you basicaly dont get anything, the White Knights jump up and say"NOOOOOOOOOO How could you ask for such a thing?! Its unreasonable, its Impossible, the T5s were TRASH, so the T6s also have to be TRASH, because its Tradition!
How could you even think of such a think?! See all the T6s upgrades were nothing but a T6 Sticker on them, so of COURSE they have to do the same on the Valiant, so how dare you to expect anything other than this?! If you want Dodging 5 / 2 weapon slot GET THE Pilot Ships! if you want Integrated Cloak get the Intel Ships! Or better PLAY on the Romulan Side! cause NO ONE ELSE should EVAAAA be allowed to get Integrated Cloak, cause REASONS REASONS REASONS BLA BLA, Sellfishnes Overload x100000.
You Get what you Pay for, so pay your 30Dollar and get NOTHING, and LIKE IT, cause we like it too, cause we like paying money for nothing so you should like it too!
We are te Holy Whiteknights, and we will NOT allow anyone to criticize anything in this Game, because everything is Perfect, so be quiet and like it..............
well, thats just a smal part of what is being thrown at you the moment you open your mouth and dare to say *BUT*.....
I really was excited to get the Cross Faction Bundle mainly for the Defiant / Valiant, and also the Sao Paulo for the Costume and the Quad....thankfully Cryptic loves us so much, that they gave me every reason to not buy any of those, well thank you very much
]So? As Chip and several others have pointed out.... this follows the established plan of how they do T6 versions of T5 ships....expecting something else is unrealistic.
Except the other T6 versions of T5 ships compensated for deficiencies in their predecessors.
The Andromeda and Yamato gained Lt. Com Tactical stations. People were crying for YEARS for the Galaxy to get that seat and they FINALLY got it, and there was much rejoicing. Hardly anyone cried about the update. No one derided them for not being Command Battlecruisers, at worst people will lament that the Yamato and Andromeda are too similar (although they are in fact fairly different).
.
The Defiant also got its biggest deficiency fixed - that it has 3 tactical bridge officer slots, leading to one useless Tactical Ensign. Now that useless tactical ensign has been replaced with a Lt. Universal. And it's Lt.Cmdr Tactical can also slot Pilot abilities. That's a significant improvement, solving all the shared cooldown problems the old Defiant ran into once and for all.
It's similar to how the Exploration Cruiser got a Lt.Cmdr Tactical (instead of a far more logical Lt.Cmdr Science) to appease the DPS crowd.
But people demand more. They also want Battle Cloak. They want Pilot ship abilities.
Why should they get that, if they Galaxy or the Prometheus didn't get something like that either?
And honestly, the Valiant is a victim of the Defiant's lineage.
I think if anything, I think the Defiant is victim to the overpowered nature of Pilot Escorts. Giving them immunity granting maneuvering powers and 5/2 weapon loadout was just too much. Even if the Alita or the Advanced Escort have unique niches due to gimmicky stuff like pets, they are ultimately inferior to the Pilot Escorts. But the rage is not as big because they aren't really hero ships, just stuff we've seen in the background and there are less people with strong emotional attachment to it then to the Defiant (or Galaxy, for that matter).
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Your chip analogy is still off the mark. Cryptic didn't mislead anyone, suggesting that the T6 Defiant was going to be anything more than it is. Players had unrealistic expectations, and are unhappy the ship didn't measure up to their dreams.
The chips come in a new shiny bag, but at no point did they say the chips were going to be anything drastically better than the original chips. And for months, each variety of chip they gave new packaging to was only given a small change.
People argued for over a year what a T6 Defiant would look like. Frequently people would point out that the Phantom basically was the T6 Defiant. When we finally do get the T6 Defiant, it's basically a watered down Phantom with most of it's features stripped away and nothing, absolutely nothing to show for it except a healthier HP pool.
Eh, I guess count me in with the part of the playerbase that expected this. The trend's there, and every time a new T6 ship is released (which again, players screamed at Cryptic not to make better for reasons of power creep) there are going to be screams over it being underpowered compared to something else, or not enough of an improvement over T5.
It's just sad that this gets blamed on the Devs not caring, not listening, making a cash-grab, or whatever else negative, when the Devs have tried so very hard to make their intentions with T6 clear from the beginning.
It is different, when arguing the eternal complainants and trolls or when arguing 9/10 people on the forum. The point is that here the devs trying to sell something that has already been sold (refit, retrofit, T5-U etc.) and simply people expected more from these iconic ships than useless Overcloaking, weak console and trait.
I want to buy a BoP , but not buy , because we can not use skin Ning'tao , as was possible with previous BoP.
]So? As Chip and several others have pointed out.... this follows the established plan of how they do T6 versions of T5 ships....expecting something else is unrealistic.
Except the other T6 versions of T5 ships compensated for deficiencies in their predecessors.
The Andromeda and Yamato gained Lt. Com Tactical stations. People were crying for YEARS for the Galaxy to get that seat and they FINALLY got it, and there was much rejoicing. Hardly anyone cried about the update. No one derided them for not being Command Battlecruisers, at worst people will lament that the Yamato and Andromeda are too similar (although they are in fact fairly different).
.
The Defiant also got its biggest deficiency fixed - that it has 3 tactical bridge officer slots, leading to one useless Tactical Ensign. Now that useless tactical ensign has been replaced with a Lt. Universal. And it's Lt.Cmdr Tactical can also slot Pilot abilities. That's a significant improvement, solving all the shared cooldown problems the old Defiant ran into once and for all.
It's similar to how the Exploration Cruiser got a Lt.Cmdr Tactical (instead of a far more logical Lt.Cmdr Science) to appease the DPS crowd.
But people demand more. They also want Battle Cloak. They want Pilot ship abilities.
Why should they get that, if they Galaxy or the Prometheus didn't get something like that either?
And honestly, the Valiant is a victim of the Defiant's lineage.
I think if anything, I think the Defiant is victim to the overpowered nature of Pilot Escorts. Giving them immunity granting maneuvering powers and 5/2 weapon loadout was just too much. Even if the Alita or the Advanced Escort have unique niches due to gimmicky stuff like pets, they are ultimately inferior to the Pilot Escorts. But the rage is not as big because they aren't really hero ships, just stuff we've seen in the background and there are less people with strong emotional attachment to it then to the Defiant (or Galaxy, for that matter).
For the Info, Kumari and variants, and the Avenger and its T6 Version Albiter ALSO have 5 / 2 Weapon Layout (5 /3 on Avenger / Albiter) and they all have BY FAR better Console Set Bonuses than the Ridicilously BAD Console Set of the Valiant, so are those Ships considered OP too? i dont think so? Esspecially if a Battlecruiser (Avenger / Albiter) gets 5 Weapons front, than ANY new Escort should get it TOO, at least the Tactical Oriented ones (Hestia / Prometheus are Sci Second, on those 4 / 3 would make somewhat sense)
so, nope sorry you guys can say whatever you want, but the 5 / 2 Weapons layout AND having the Quad Cannons as a 2 Piece Set (or 3 piece if the Cloak has to be) was the BAR MINIMUM that the Valiant should have gotten.
Most People here say give us SOMETHING not EVERYTHING, what we got however was NOTHING, yet still many People here are defending this and call us "Fanboys"Unreasonable"dunderheads" and so on and so on, seriously the expectations of some People are so LOW, i dont think it could get any lower, if they would slap 5% more Hull and Shields and give 1 more console Slot, and than call the Next Variant of a Ship the T7 *add a random name here* some of you guys would break out in tears and Scream" YAY Cryptic, thank you soo much for this AWESOME new, Ship! here take our Credit Cards, our Cars, Houses and Wives in exchange!"..............
They aren't. They're mostly pretty awesome, which is why the Valiant is such a disappointment. It's NOT awesome like they are. The other Iconic and remakes are pretty good. The Valiant is not.
Most People here say give us SOMETHING not EVERYTHING, what we got however was NOTHING, yet still many People here are defending this and call us "Fanboys"Unreasonable"dunderheads" and so on and so on..............
Snipping because that bit alone makes my point.
You'll find most of the more reasonable people are agreeing that the set bonus is worthless mate, and for the record its not all that useful on the Kor either, declaook ambush only lasts long enough to get one volley off afterall, the console that is linked on the Kor is at least more useful than the defiants cloak. (The torpedo console is exceptional incidentally even if it looks odd, charge time is a bit long though)
You're also putting plenty of people off with your highly aggressive and mocking tone. You actually sound like the spoilt rich kid that got chocolate ice cream when that's what he was told he was getting, thing is he wanted chocolate chip, so he kicks up a stink to make everyone else miserable because he didn't get what he wanted regardless of any logical reasoning that may or may not support he.
The Defiant also got its biggest deficiency fixed - that it has 3 tactical bridge officer slots, leading to one useless Tactical Ensign. Now that useless tactical ensign has been replaced with a Lt. Universal. And it's Lt.Cmdr Tactical can also slot Pilot abilities. That's a significant improvement, solving all the shared cooldown problems the old Defiant ran into once and for all.
It's similar to how the Exploration Cruiser got a Lt.Cmdr Tactical (instead of a far more logical Lt.Cmdr Science) to appease the DPS crowd.
Why should they get that, if they Galaxy or the Prometheus didn't get something like that either?
FYI the Defiant's biggest deficiency was being a glass cannon with a weak cannon. Too many sci consoles. Only gets 5 tac consoles with a Fleet Variant. It had an overabundance of tactical seats in general with no real options as far as filling them went. An LT Universal is also useless when it already has a Sci and Eng Lt seat. What's it going to use the Lt. Seat for?
What does Piloting bring to the Valiant that compensates for the Defiant's old weaknesses?
The Defiant also got its biggest deficiency fixed - that it has 3 tactical bridge officer slots, leading to one useless Tactical Ensign. Now that useless tactical ensign has been replaced with a Lt. Universal. And it's Lt.Cmdr Tactical can also slot Pilot abilities. That's a significant improvement, solving all the shared cooldown problems the old Defiant ran into once and for all.
It's similar to how the Exploration Cruiser got a Lt.Cmdr Tactical (instead of a far more logical Lt.Cmdr Science) to appease the DPS crowd.
Why should they get that, if they Galaxy or the Prometheus didn't get something like that either?
FYI the Defiant's biggest deficiency was being a glass cannon with a weak cannon. Too many sci consoles. Only gets 5 tac consoles with a Fleet Variant. It had an overabundance of tactical seats in general with no real options as far as filling them went. An LT Universal is also useless when it already has a Sci and Eng Lt seat. What's it going to use the Lt. Seat for?
What does Piloting bring to the Valiant that compensates for the Defiant's old weaknesses?
You say it was a glass cannon, but you can't see a use for Science and Engineering powers?
Emergency Power to Shields, Engineering Team, Auxilliary to Structural Ingegrity Field, Science Team, Hazard Emitters, Transfer Shield Strength, Polarize Hull.
On the Pilot side, we can add Hold it Together.
So, take your picks to deal with your glass issues.
And what else you can use with Pilot and Engineering:
Lock Trajectory is nice on pretty much any forward facing weapon layout.
Emergency Power to Weapons and Directed Energy Modulation will boost your damage.
Not that anyone needs it anymore with all the cooldown reduction traits, but Aux2Bat would actually also be an option on the Defiant.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
If you're running pedal to the metal this skill is a godsend, it functions similarly to hazard emitters when at full throttle but isn't reliant on auxiliary power and has a much higher dmg resist rating on it.
]So? As Chip and several others have pointed out.... this follows the established plan of how they do T6 versions of T5 ships....expecting something else is unrealistic.
Except the other T6 versions of T5 ships compensated for deficiencies in their predecessors.
The Andromeda and Yamato gained Lt. Com Tactical stations. People were crying for YEARS for the Galaxy to get that seat and they FINALLY got it, and there was much rejoicing. Hardly anyone cried about the update. No one derided them for not being Command Battlecruisers, at worst people will lament that the Yamato and Andromeda are too similar (although they are in fact fairly different).
Next you have the Hestia. Initially outrage aside, acquiring a Lt. Com Engineer seat was well received, and the Command abilities, for whatever they're worth, make it unique among Escorts. Not to mention that if you gotta have a Hybrid seat, you basically want it to be for an Engineering slot.
The Alita, like the Valiant it gained a Lt. Universal seat instead of a Lt. Com station, but unlike the Valiant, the Hybrid seat consumed an Engineering slot. And even if the change is not significant, the fact is that the Alita still retains a hangar, making it unique among T6 Escorts.
Admittedly, the Pathfinder is a bit of a dud. Like the Valiant it has to compete with an Intelligence ship that is flat out better in every way. Still, it is one of only 3 T6 Science ships available in the C-Store.
Finally, the Resolute. Admittedly, people would have preferred the Ensign slot be universal, but people were satisfied that after the Andromeda, they got a vanilla Fed Cruiser that was a tad on the tactical side of things, a bit faster than the norm, but otherwise still a Fed Cruiser. The Lt. Com Engineering Hybrid again making for a good upgrade.
And honestly, the Valiant is a victim of the Defiant's lineage. People have derided the ship for it's hang ups for a long time. The cloaking console that has no business being a console. The 5th tac slot that requires a Fleet Module. The excessive number of tactical seats. The relatively low speed that is not compensated for with bridge officer abilities in either science or engineering. The ship has been plagued with problems for as long as the Galaxy and Galaxy-X had been.
Basically everything wrong with the T5U Defiant is still there. All of the original problems, all of the deficiencies. Only now there's more competition. Now there's the Phantom that's like a stick in the eye to everyone that wanted a half-decent Defiant Escort.
I remember rage for basically every T6 variant that came out. I think the main problem is so many players go into an intitial fit when the stats don't fit their own ideal, then as people actually buy the ship, settle into it, and create a new go-to setup to make it work, the rage dies off.
It's fine to be disappointed initially (although there's an unreasonable expectations argument to be made in some cases), but some of the silliness being thrown at the Devs due to the initial rage is kinda unfair.
I remember rage for basically every T6 variant that came out.
For the Pathfinder, the most rage I remember was it being released and then a week later Black Friday giving it a big discount that people missed out on if they'd bought it prior to that. There were also people upset that the Refits and Retrofits they'd already purchased wouldn't provide a discount for the Pathfinder or make the ship interiors available.
I don't remember anyone being upset about the Andromeda. Maybe the console and ship trait weren't especially exciting? Regardless, the Lt. Com Tac was basically what people had been wanting for ages.
The Arbiter was well received due to it's ship trait and generally being faithful to the original which people liked.
Really, aside from the Pathfinder and Hestia, people were pretty happy about the T6 upgrades.
And you know what? The Zen price has plummeted since people got a look at the stats of the Escort Pack. Usually when a new ship pack comes out, the price spikes and hovers for the weekend it's out. Maybe it's a result of the Herald box coming out not so long ago and people are too exhausted when it comes to in game purchases, but I get the sense that there's a near universal disinterest in the pack.
@ Mustru; when I take into account a ship's durability, I account for bridge officer seatings. The fact that the Valiant only has one Lt. Com seat makes it less durable.
Also the problem for me is not the Weapons Layout, or the Boff Seating but a Set Bonus that is not going to work with a normal cloak.
That's one point I understand and can agree with. 5/2 weps, Pilot maneuvers, that's all unreasonable. But making the Sao Paulo quad cannons part of a Defiant set would have been logical and in the process, FEDs could get some more useful set bonuses.
On the other hand, KDF's Kor deserves the photon console it was supposed to get and it also deserves to get some fixes: the B'rothl skin that seems to remain unusable on some versions of the B'rel/Kor, or the engine glow that's misplaced.
TOIVA, Toi Vaxx, Toia Vix, Toveg, T'vritha, To Vrax: Bring in the Allegiance class. Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider. Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Also the problem for me is not the Weapons Layout, or the Boff Seating but a Set Bonus that is not going to work with a normal cloak.
That's one point I understand and can agree with. 5/2 weps, Pilot maneuvers, that's all unreasonable. But making the Sao Paulo quad cannons part of a Defiant set would have been logical and in the process, FEDs could get some more useful set bonuses.
On the other hand, KDF's Kor deserves the photon console it was supposed to get and it also deserves to get some fixes: the B'rothl skin that seems to remain unusable on some versions of the B'rel/Kor, or the engine glow that's misplaced.
I'd have to agree actually - as you say, 5/2 weapon layout and pilot maneuvers were a pipedream and I maintain that there was no reason to expect the Valiant to be treated any differently to previous T5 -> T6 canon ship releases.
However, I do agree that the Quad cannons would have been appropriate as part of a set, because as it stands the set bonus it does receive really isn't worth wasting a console slot on.
Exactly the point, this ship was designed to have high maneuverability and some powerful weapons with a great defense shield.
Seek and ye shall find. Ask and ye shall receive. Rabboni
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" (Benjamin Franklin).
Most unexpectedly, this turned into a flame-fest! Closed it goes!. /sigh What flamefestery is this? pwlaughingtrendy
Comments
Only if the Sensor Console is reworked to have an appropriate, "To Be Or Not To Be...."
Eh, I guess count me in with the part of the playerbase that expected this. The trend's there, and every time a new T6 ship is released (which again, players screamed at Cryptic not to make better for reasons of power creep) there are going to be screams over it being underpowered compared to something else, or not enough of an improvement over T5.
It's just sad that this gets blamed on the Devs not caring, not listening, making a cash-grab, or whatever else negative, when the Devs have tried so very hard to make their intentions with T6 clear from the beginning.
My character Tsin'xing
From what I've seen, it fires out like a torp spread that hits a singular target, though don't quote me on that. The torpedoes seem to load as fast as a torpedo cooldown until it reaches its maximum 6 so just keep firing away whenever you get an opener in the enemy's shields.
I'll admit it's taken a while for me to get back into BoP piloting. These things are squishy but fun.
Who cares? They are sub optimal by any standard. A Very Rare DHC does approximately 397 damage. Quad Cannons top out at about 287. And ARC DHC's have the same or better damage than the DHC with a 90 degree firing arc. DHCs of any type also use less energy that quads. The whole quad cannon discussion is a waste of type, pixels and mental energy until they are made worth while.
Second, the Kor of the problem.
I use my Enhanced Battle Cloak (EBC) Fleet B'rel with a specialized captain built around sending gifts of stealthy torpedo death. It is not for the weak. I die a lot even with the best set up. Sometimes even my own 'splosions get me killed. Fortunately, I am immortal and cannot really be killed. I will just fire one volley, die and come back. Totally destroys suspension of disbelief, but hey, that is the life of a Fleet B'rel driver. And it isn't the way it should be.
If the T6 Kor is going to be released as is, there is no point in buying it. The EBC is mean to be use with torps and mines and the occasional science shenanigans. But with cloak being so easy to interrupt and that brief moment of visibility and a paper thin hull, the ship is not viable for advanced or elite queues. Hull health should have been buffed to at least that of a raptor. At LEAST! Following the purpose of a torp boat, the tac consoles should have been 5, not 4. To do significant damage without first taking down shields the total damage to kill needs to be in an amount that shield bleed through posts a real risk to every target. To do this, skill levels for the captain need to minimize energy weapons and maximize projectiles. As many torp and mine buffs as exist in the game need to be used on the EBC ship to help accomplish that objective. There is no point in using energy weapons as other ship designs/classes (raptors, escorts, battle cruisers) do the job better and have the hull and Boff abilities to make them better at it. The Kor as presented does none of these. It is still a ship where you fly very fast, hit and fade away, and hope like hell you don't lose your timing for even a moment. I already have that with the current ship. Improvements need to be made for survivability and to fit the role for which the ship is meant to be used.
Third, spurious arguments about cloaks,
At this point in the game, IMO, whether the Valiant gets or does not get a battle cloak or whether it is integral or not is really not all that important. DS9 was what year? 2390 something? Technology advances. It's 2410 or later. Nothing stands still. We have now faced and fought the Iconians, something no one from any of the old series would have even conceived and likely would have driven them to their knees in fear. Further, we did so as allies where no one would have seen the Romulan, Klingon and Federation super powers in the past. Weapons development would have been seen as the most important issue to preserve everyone against the Iconians. Old treaties about cloaking tech are moot points. STO is not Star Trek. Cryptic is making their own ships, their own stories, and STO looks very little like the original franchises.
All this said, so, developers, what about that Kor? Do you want me to buy it or not? If so, the second point above. Thank you for your time.
I remain a loyal follower of the Empire and hope we can do business again in the future.
Player and forumite formerly known as FEELTHETHUNDER
Expatriot Might Characters in EXILE
Except the other T6 versions of T5 ships compensated for deficiencies in their predecessors.
The Andromeda and Yamato gained Lt. Com Tactical stations. People were crying for YEARS for the Galaxy to get that seat and they FINALLY got it, and there was much rejoicing. Hardly anyone cried about the update. No one derided them for not being Command Battlecruisers, at worst people will lament that the Yamato and Andromeda are too similar (although they are in fact fairly different).
Next you have the Hestia. Initially outrage aside, acquiring a Lt. Com Engineer seat was well received, and the Command abilities, for whatever they're worth, make it unique among Escorts. Not to mention that if you gotta have a Hybrid seat, you basically want it to be for an Engineering slot.
The Alita, like the Valiant it gained a Lt. Universal seat instead of a Lt. Com station, but unlike the Valiant, the Hybrid seat consumed an Engineering slot. And even if the change is not significant, the fact is that the Alita still retains a hangar, making it unique among T6 Escorts.
Admittedly, the Pathfinder is a bit of a dud. Like the Valiant it has to compete with an Intelligence ship that is flat out better in every way. Still, it is one of only 3 T6 Science ships available in the C-Store.
Finally, the Resolute. Admittedly, people would have preferred the Ensign slot be universal, but people were satisfied that after the Andromeda, they got a vanilla Fed Cruiser that was a tad on the tactical side of things, a bit faster than the norm, but otherwise still a Fed Cruiser. The Lt. Com Engineering Hybrid again making for a good upgrade.
And honestly, the Valiant is a victim of the Defiant's lineage. People have derided the ship for it's hang ups for a long time. The cloaking console that has no business being a console. The 5th tac slot that requires a Fleet Module. The excessive number of tactical seats. The relatively low speed that is not compensated for with bridge officer abilities in either science or engineering. The ship has been plagued with problems for as long as the Galaxy and Galaxy-X had been.
Basically everything wrong with the T5U Defiant is still there. All of the original problems, all of the deficiencies. Only now there's more competition. Now there's the Phantom that's like a stick in the eye to everyone that wanted a half-decent Defiant Escort.
My character Tsin'xing
The ships all work well as torpedo-centric boats, using the torp console for that sexy single-target burst damage.
Kor is a bit too fragile, but then again, it's a Raider and Raiders always were fragile in exchange for massive flexibility. I kind of wish they (Raiders in general) sacrificed a Universal seat (if they had 1 non-universal) or two (if they're pure Universal) for a Fixed seat in exchange for a bit more health/durability. The -1 ability is still fine.
Malem is fun just running around wild with torps everywhere. Unfortunately, I do need the Terran Munitions Console and Terran Traits to really make more use of it. As well, the Reman/Romulan HY Plasma-boosting bonus is in need of a buff to its HY Plasma Torp boosts.
Cheers,
Regular pricing is 3000z per and 6000z bundle.
They have 4 universals instead of the usual 5 assigned seats. Price for flexibility? Paid in full. As for more health and durability, that's why I have the pilot raptors.
Personally I would have been upset if all the b'rels bugs were not carried over to the T6 b'rel it would break the tradition we have with Cryptic with the KDF. I mean where is our trailer of our new T6 b'rel blowing up a planet? Come on guys get your act together!
Funy and Sad at the same time, cause very True, the moment you say but but...please a little bit more because you basicaly dont get anything, the White Knights jump up and say"NOOOOOOOOOO How could you ask for such a thing?! Its unreasonable, its Impossible, the T5s were TRASH, so the T6s also have to be TRASH, because its Tradition!
How could you even think of such a think?! See all the T6s upgrades were nothing but a T6 Sticker on them, so of COURSE they have to do the same on the Valiant, so how dare you to expect anything other than this?! If you want Dodging 5 / 2 weapon slot GET THE Pilot Ships! if you want Integrated Cloak get the Intel Ships! Or better PLAY on the Romulan Side! cause NO ONE ELSE should EVAAAA be allowed to get Integrated Cloak, cause REASONS REASONS REASONS BLA BLA, Sellfishnes Overload x100000.
You Get what you Pay for, so pay your 30Dollar and get NOTHING, and LIKE IT, cause we like it too, cause we like paying money for nothing so you should like it too!
We are te Holy Whiteknights, and we will NOT allow anyone to criticize anything in this Game, because everything is Perfect, so be quiet and like it..............
well, thats just a smal part of what is being thrown at you the moment you open your mouth and dare to say *BUT*.....
I really was excited to get the Cross Faction Bundle mainly for the Defiant / Valiant, and also the Sao Paulo for the Costume and the Quad....thankfully Cryptic loves us so much, that they gave me every reason to not buy any of those, well thank you very much
It's similar to how the Exploration Cruiser got a Lt.Cmdr Tactical (instead of a far more logical Lt.Cmdr Science) to appease the DPS crowd.
But people demand more. They also want Battle Cloak. They want Pilot ship abilities.
Why should they get that, if they Galaxy or the Prometheus didn't get something like that either?
I think if anything, I think the Defiant is victim to the overpowered nature of Pilot Escorts. Giving them immunity granting maneuvering powers and 5/2 weapon loadout was just too much. Even if the Alita or the Advanced Escort have unique niches due to gimmicky stuff like pets, they are ultimately inferior to the Pilot Escorts. But the rage is not as big because they aren't really hero ships, just stuff we've seen in the background and there are less people with strong emotional attachment to it then to the Defiant (or Galaxy, for that matter).
It is different, when arguing the eternal complainants and trolls or when arguing 9/10 people on the forum. The point is that here the devs trying to sell something that has already been sold (refit, retrofit, T5-U etc.) and simply people expected more from these iconic ships than useless Overcloaking, weak console and trait.
I want to buy a BoP , but not buy , because we can not use skin Ning'tao , as was possible with previous BoP.
For the Info, Kumari and variants, and the Avenger and its T6 Version Albiter ALSO have 5 / 2 Weapon Layout (5 /3 on Avenger / Albiter) and they all have BY FAR better Console Set Bonuses than the Ridicilously BAD Console Set of the Valiant, so are those Ships considered OP too? i dont think so? Esspecially if a Battlecruiser (Avenger / Albiter) gets 5 Weapons front, than ANY new Escort should get it TOO, at least the Tactical Oriented ones (Hestia / Prometheus are Sci Second, on those 4 / 3 would make somewhat sense)
so, nope sorry you guys can say whatever you want, but the 5 / 2 Weapons layout AND having the Quad Cannons as a 2 Piece Set (or 3 piece if the Cloak has to be) was the BAR MINIMUM that the Valiant should have gotten.
Most People here say give us SOMETHING not EVERYTHING, what we got however was NOTHING, yet still many People here are defending this and call us "Fanboys"Unreasonable"dunderheads" and so on and so on, seriously the expectations of some People are so LOW, i dont think it could get any lower, if they would slap 5% more Hull and Shields and give 1 more console Slot, and than call the Next Variant of a Ship the T7 *add a random name here* some of you guys would break out in tears and Scream" YAY Cryptic, thank you soo much for this AWESOME new, Ship! here take our Credit Cards, our Cars, Houses and Wives in exchange!"..............
They aren't. They're mostly pretty awesome, which is why the Valiant is such a disappointment. It's NOT awesome like they are. The other Iconic and remakes are pretty good. The Valiant is not.
Snipping because that bit alone makes my point.
You'll find most of the more reasonable people are agreeing that the set bonus is worthless mate, and for the record its not all that useful on the Kor either, declaook ambush only lasts long enough to get one volley off afterall, the console that is linked on the Kor is at least more useful than the defiants cloak. (The torpedo console is exceptional incidentally even if it looks odd, charge time is a bit long though)
You're also putting plenty of people off with your highly aggressive and mocking tone. You actually sound like the spoilt rich kid that got chocolate ice cream when that's what he was told he was getting, thing is he wanted chocolate chip, so he kicks up a stink to make everyone else miserable because he didn't get what he wanted regardless of any logical reasoning that may or may not support he.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=w5FmSmyHaCI
Also the problem for me is not the Weapons Layout, or the Boff Seating but a Set Bonus that is not going to work with a normal cloak.
FYI the Defiant's biggest deficiency was being a glass cannon with a weak cannon. Too many sci consoles. Only gets 5 tac consoles with a Fleet Variant. It had an overabundance of tactical seats in general with no real options as far as filling them went. An LT Universal is also useless when it already has a Sci and Eng Lt seat. What's it going to use the Lt. Seat for?
What does Piloting bring to the Valiant that compensates for the Defiant's old weaknesses?
Emergency Power to Shields, Engineering Team, Auxilliary to Structural Ingegrity Field, Science Team, Hazard Emitters, Transfer Shield Strength, Polarize Hull.
On the Pilot side, we can add Hold it Together.
So, take your picks to deal with your glass issues.
And what else you can use with Pilot and Engineering:
Lock Trajectory is nice on pretty much any forward facing weapon layout.
Emergency Power to Weapons and Directed Energy Modulation will boost your damage.
Not that anyone needs it anymore with all the cooldown reduction traits, but Aux2Bat would actually also be an option on the Defiant.
If you're running pedal to the metal this skill is a godsend, it functions similarly to hazard emitters when at full throttle but isn't reliant on auxiliary power and has a much higher dmg resist rating on it.
I remember rage for basically every T6 variant that came out. I think the main problem is so many players go into an intitial fit when the stats don't fit their own ideal, then as people actually buy the ship, settle into it, and create a new go-to setup to make it work, the rage dies off.
It's fine to be disappointed initially (although there's an unreasonable expectations argument to be made in some cases), but some of the silliness being thrown at the Devs due to the initial rage is kinda unfair.
For the Pathfinder, the most rage I remember was it being released and then a week later Black Friday giving it a big discount that people missed out on if they'd bought it prior to that. There were also people upset that the Refits and Retrofits they'd already purchased wouldn't provide a discount for the Pathfinder or make the ship interiors available.
I don't remember anyone being upset about the Andromeda. Maybe the console and ship trait weren't especially exciting? Regardless, the Lt. Com Tac was basically what people had been wanting for ages.
The Arbiter was well received due to it's ship trait and generally being faithful to the original which people liked.
Really, aside from the Pathfinder and Hestia, people were pretty happy about the T6 upgrades.
And you know what? The Zen price has plummeted since people got a look at the stats of the Escort Pack. Usually when a new ship pack comes out, the price spikes and hovers for the weekend it's out. Maybe it's a result of the Herald box coming out not so long ago and people are too exhausted when it comes to in game purchases, but I get the sense that there's a near universal disinterest in the pack.
@ Mustru; when I take into account a ship's durability, I account for bridge officer seatings. The fact that the Valiant only has one Lt. Com seat makes it less durable.
Most unexpectedly, this turned into a flame-fest! Closed it goes!. /sigh What flamefestery is this? pwlaughingtrendy
That's one point I understand and can agree with. 5/2 weps, Pilot maneuvers, that's all unreasonable. But making the Sao Paulo quad cannons part of a Defiant set would have been logical and in the process, FEDs could get some more useful set bonuses.
On the other hand, KDF's Kor deserves the photon console it was supposed to get and it also deserves to get some fixes: the B'rothl skin that seems to remain unusable on some versions of the B'rel/Kor, or the engine glow that's misplaced.
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider.
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!
Exactly the point, this ship was designed to have high maneuverability and some powerful weapons with a great defense shield.
Most unexpectedly, this turned into a flame-fest! Closed it goes!. /sigh What flamefestery is this? pwlaughingtrendy