Contrary to the opinions of some, a licensed publication is not "non-canon." It's soft canon.
Right, non-canon is non-canon.
I agree with you. They should ban disco balls.
We've got plenty of evidence that white Orions aren't canon, please point out where disco isn't canon.
Same evidence in both cases: We haven't seen one.
Either both are cool from a canon perspective (just because we haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist) or neither are.
There can be arguments against either one individually but if you're going the canon route with this argument (presumably to showcase how "broken" the fandom is), then they're equally canon. Never seen either, either might or might not exist.
Granted, I have a mod to get rid of disco balls and a different mod to replace the music with Oobie Doobie. But no mod to replace flesh colored Orions in chainmail bikinis with James Cromwell. Clearly I've been slacking.
First reply by @artan42 prooves OP wrong and gets ignored throguhout the thread.
EDIT: Ah, it got adressed on page 3. Still, "Green is what defines an Orion" has been proven wrong. And while I personally think it's stupid that people select Orions for the bikinis and then colour them human I wouldn't however want to take option away from people, for what reason anyway? Immersion, canon? Nothing in this game is tailored to be immersive or be a representation of canon. Why start now? Yes, aside from trolling. Why do I read dental threads in the first place?
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Contrary to the opinions of some, a licensed publication is not "non-canon." It's soft canon.
Right, non-canon is non-canon.
I agree with you. They should ban disco balls.
We've got plenty of evidence that white Orions aren't canon, please point out where disco isn't canon.
Same evidence in both cases: We haven't seen one.
Either both are cool from a canon perspective (just because we haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist) or neither are.
There can be arguments against either one individually but if you're going the canon route with this argument (presumably to showcase how "broken" the fandom is), then they're equally canon. Never seen either, either might or might not exist.
Granted, I have a mod to get rid of disco balls and a different mod to replace the music with Oobie Doobie. But no mod to replace flesh colored Orions in chainmail bikinis with James Cromwell. Clearly I've been slacking.
Ahahaha why is anyone going to listen to someone so deranged they need to modify their client to stop disco from displaying
Great job admitting to ToS violations there mate, good work. Real players don't need disco removal or nude mods or whatever other filth you're cheating with.
But you know what? I guess it doesn't matter now does it? By being allowed to visit their studios Cryptic has pretty much signed off on you and your fleet haven't they? They've said in deed what most of us have suspected for years. They're not going to stop you. They're not going to correct you. You won. After long last, you really, really won. STO is yours and no one is going to do a thing about it. Congratulations.
Contrary to the opinions of some, a licensed publication is not "non-canon." It's soft canon.
Right, non-canon is non-canon.
I agree with you. They should ban disco balls.
We've got plenty of evidence that white Orions aren't canon, please point out where disco isn't canon.
The only evidence we have that white Orions aren't canon is because the only ones we have seen in the TV-series and movies are green. But we haven't seen disco balls in them either so obviously neither are they. You can't have it both ways mate.
Logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end of it.
Something that has never made sense to me is the color palette for Orions in STO. In Star Trek, Orions have green skin. Not pink or white skin, green skin.
It's kind of off putting to see so many 'orions' who are clearly just 'humans with skimpy clothes' because people make them with human, rather than orion skin tones.
A small change that would do a lot for Trek Immersion, Make Orions Green.
For the sake of argument, why would there not white Orions? I mean we're all friends now, and they've been 'allied' with the KDF for the span of the game.
In other words plenty of opportunity for Orion genes to...mix...with other races. Seems reasonable to me that in certain situations olive or white skinned Orions would be the result. The humanoid species in Trek appear to be remarkably compatible with each other in that respect, especially humans. Maybe it's Kirk's legacy?
Some of the more pessimistic calculation have it that there are several million descendants of him by 2409.
And just to chuck it in, I would 100% support complete availability of all KDF costume pieces for all KDF races. I want to put a Gorn in Nausicaan armor dammit.
A previous poster above states that, low and behold, the poster is in the same Fleet as the OP. No 'sh*t Sherlock', one could have easily had figured that out by the forum attack vector employed. Unfortunately, mobile does not show the signature monikers. From the desktop it is apparent that the poster belongs to the IS branch of that Fleet and not the North Korean branch.
By the way, there is no 'canon' that supports the use of buzz cuts on female Orions either. Reductio ad absurdum.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Lotta people gettin mad about white Orions not being canon. I'm sorry guys, the vast majority doesn't want to see your creepy pale wankbait. Keep Star Trek the way it was meant to be, with green Orions and disco everywhere, as canon dictates.
But you know what? I guess it doesn't matter now does it? By being allowed to visit their studios Cryptic has pretty much signed off on you and your fleet haven't they? They've said in deed what most of us have suspected for years. They're not going to stop you. They're not going to correct you. You won. After long last, you really, really won. STO is yours and no one is going to do a thing about it. Congratulations.
I support this though maybe not for the same reasons. I also support restricting the color of swimsuits so that they cannot be "nude" colored.
That and lingerie white. Keep them from designing their suits to look like they're in their bras and panties. So lewd.
And yet my male characters can't wear their boardshorts off duty unless they're on Risa. It's gender bias!
I know there was a scene in one of the original series episodes where a male crewman is seen in shorts (I think they were tennis shorts, but anyway), so they are cannon for off duty, not just beachwear.
So, Orion bikinis, bras and panties should be restricted to Risa also. That would discourage the boys from playing white skinned Orion girls.
Has anyone thought that a minimum of 3 years (cause since F2P, I've heard these "complaints"), 3 EPs, and all the veiled rants over Orion Skin Tones and the "full time swimwear-ization" of the KDF (cause I've heard murmurs of 'pale skin' ripped Orion Males running around without their shirts, but since it's a very very tiny portion of the population that designs these variants of "eye candy", it's not something that comes up often) - that any action that would have been taken would have been in-game by now...
When these threads come up, I think that a few new options need to be included in the tailor. I'm thinking along the lines of "Mirror Universe Male Vest", "Combat-worn TOS Command Tunic", "Seen a Plasma Fire" variant, male dress options need to be generated.
I'm sorry, I just think it's unfair that Fred or Jane can dress their "fem" characters in revealing outfits to draw the red-blooded male eye at their characters, but those of us who wish to provide the ladies a touch of eye candy are stuck with the aforementioned pale male Orion option...
Dental, you're such a champion of these causes - and are known to have the ears of the Devs. Make it so...
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
While I agree that green color was at least on screen that made Orions "Orion" and distinguishable from other species, then I wouldn't waste resources to make such a trivial change that actually changes nothing except making some players more happy. Then again, it would make some players unhappy as well - if there are some people who would like to make their Orions pale for various reasons, I say let them have that option if we already have it in game.
Also, gotta agree with previous statements, your logic fails when you say pale Orions aren't canon, but disco balls are, while we have seen neither on screen. Either both of them are canon (and I have no objections actually, everyone loves some disco every now and then) or neither are.
Quick solution that would make everyone happy, allow Red Shirt to allow all races to wear their bikinis anywhere they want in the game, then rename it Star Trek: Second Life or Dental Edition! :P
...but leave holodeck a Star Trek game
Edit: I can see the only reason people play orions is so they can wear bikinis (facepalm)
^See, we cloth our women in Star Fleet. (Caption)
Hmmm...I have to admit it seemed weird to me when I saw that Cryptic had given the option for a completely human look on the Orions. Unfortunately I do suspect it was a deliberate move to cater to certain tastes and as such, I doubt it's going anywhere, since my guess is that it a revenue-generating inducement to have a KDF alt.
Though personally, I am even MORE turned off by certain hairstyles and poses that, when combined, give me a strong impression of an underage and sexualized toon. Blehhhh. If I'd been doing the art, I would've never put that in there.
But when it comes to Orions (and other times when revealing outfits are used), the whole "bikini armor" thing just strikes me as incredibly unrealistic. Not that Trek series have been great about realism in uniforms in general, though. The only truly realistic one was Enterprise, believe it or not, which basically updated the IRL NASA flight suit (can we say "uniform actually includes POCKETS," people? ), and TOS was a pretty flagrant offender in the "unrealistic" department by having high heels and miniskirts as "appropriate" shipboard wear. High heels are NOT what you want to be wearing in an emergency, not to mention that any exposed skin, male or female, leaves you that little bit more vulnerable to hazards (such as chemical spray, biological agents, etc.). Oh...and before anyone points out that military women IRL do have an acceptable skirt uniform variant, I would also point out that that uniform is optional, nowhere near as short as what we see in game, and not worn in any circumstances where one could possibly see combat actions or encounter any form of hazardous situation. (And along those lines...sorry, men, there isn't a "man running around shirtless" option in real military uniforms at all. )
But anyway, when I imagine how my captains would feel about that kind of thing (even back when I had a KDF), I've always imagined that wearing inappropriate uniforms--even including the miniskirts--would be censured as unprofessional behavior detracting from combat readiness. Yes, I know it could be classified as an "RP" perspective, but I just can't take it even slightly seriously to see my toons or BOFFs fighting in something that doesn't even address the most basic combat preparedness. (Yes, our toons should really all have armor on away missions given the types of wartime hazards encountered, but I'll at least accept a standard uniform with long sleeves and pants as a basic combat-ready option, along the lines of IRL BDU's.)
Again, I strongly doubt these IMO stupid options (bikini armor, "seductive"/unrealistic poses, non-Orion skin tones) are going anywhere, no matter how much I wish they would. This is just my opinion about it, and why I don't use it and why when I see particularly flagrant instances of this stuff, I tend to point my toon somewhere else so I'm not getting an eyeful.
Post edited by gulberat on
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Last I checked, Orion captains made up something like 0.5% of all STO characters, so this is a petty objection, IMO. As others have indicated, interspecies breeding will affect the phenotype of any race, so there must be some degree of flexibility in creating ANY character. Some combinations would just not be possible (swapping body parts, for instance), and some species just would not be able to cross-breed, but some superficial variations are inevitable. Until Voyager, I would never have imagined that there could be black Vulcans, but there you have it!
Expendables Fleet: Andrew - Bajoran Fed Engineer Ken'taura - Rom/Fed Scientist Gwyllim - Human Fed Delta Tac Savik - Vulcan Fed Temporal Sci Dahar Masters Fleet: Alphal'Fa - Alien KDF Engineer Qun'pau - Rom/KDF Engineer D'nesh - Orion KDF Scientist Ghen'khan - Liberated KDF Tac Welcome to StarBug Online - to boldly Bug where no bug has been before!
STO player since November 2013
Until Voyager, I would never have imagined that there could be black Vulcans, but there you have it!
oh come on, are you telling me u never watched Superfriends? :P
but yeah i can see where this would grab most kids who just got hit with hormones, its why they do this so much in other games, look at lengths team ninja goes to, to make a buck! shameless devs!
^age 14 and 16
Last I checked, Orion captains made up something like 0.5% of all STO characters, so this is a petty objection, IMO. As others have indicated, interspecies breeding will affect the phenotype of any race, so there must be some degree of flexibility in creating ANY character. Some combinations would just not be possible (swapping body parts, for instance), and some species just would not be able to cross-breed, but some superficial variations are inevitable. Until Voyager, I would never have imagined that there could be black Vulcans, but there you have it!
Heh, also.... it IS canon that not all Orions are green.
I support this though maybe not for the same reasons. I also support restricting the color of swimsuits so that they cannot be "nude" colored.
That and lingerie white. Keep them from designing their suits to look like they're in their bras and panties. So lewd.
And yet my male characters can't wear their boardshorts off duty unless they're on Risa. It's gender bias!
I know there was a scene in one of the original series episodes where a male crewman is seen in shorts (I think they were tennis shorts, but anyway), so they are cannon for off duty, not just beachwear.
So, Orion bikinis, bras and panties should be restricted to Risa also. That would discourage the boys from playing white skinned Orion girls.
I'm a quote myself. Here ya go, these aren't boardshorts, but close enough. Men can wear shorts off duty, and not just on the beach.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Heh, also.... it IS canon that not all Orions are green.
greens still a good color ^^
Jade as a GL? I dunno.... I thought her connection to the Starheart made the rings avoid her? then again... she might be able to use it to imitate a GL. *looks it up* Hunh... maybe not. Maybe she never used one because she didn't need it.
Last I checked, Orion captains made up something like 0.5% of all STO characters, so this is a petty objection, IMO. As others have indicated, interspecies breeding will affect the phenotype of any race, so there must be some degree of flexibility in creating ANY character. Some combinations would just not be possible (swapping body parts, for instance), and some species just would not be able to cross-breed, but some superficial variations are inevitable. Until Voyager, I would never have imagined that there could be black Vulcans, but there you have it!
Heh, also.... it IS canon that not all Orions are green.
Nobody's posted a single screen cap from Star Trek of an Orion that wasn't green.
Even in that awful novelty cartoon they did, the proper Orion's were green and the goofy ones were blue-green.
Actually, there wasn't a single Orion in TAS, that is what you would consider the "right" color. Devna was a pale yellowish color, and the guys in the pirate ship were light blue-green.
And yes, in the first appearance of Orions it was said that they weren't all green.
The Orions had a number of sub-races, including the Green Orions (covered here), the Ruddy Orions, the Grey Orions, the rare halfbreeds, and muni, or 'blends', consisting of other colors and races. They absorbed a number of other races into their culture, also known as Orion but of limited numbers or presence.[5][6] These absorbed races might include the Etoshans and Duthulhiv,[7][8] a gray-skinned reptilian variety[9] and a slimy purple variety.[10]
Insisting that only hard canon material be used in STO is a lost cause; STO already includes a number of elements and inspirations from soft canon, whether hard canon purists like that or not. But this "proposal," while cloaked as such, is not about canon, hard or soft.
Hey protogoths do you have any screen caps from Star Trek of Orions that are white instead of green?
It's cool i guess that whoever you keep talking about let his imagination run wild and wrote books based on Star Trek.
But let's keep things to how it was in the actual Star Trek show yeah?
Again, you are fighting a lost battle. STO includes many elements which are taken directly from or inspired by soft canon sources. And STO is richer for that.
Edit to reply to your added bit in your edit:
It's also not merely one person's imagination. There are at least three novels and two tabletop RPG sourcebooks which refer to (and in the case of the latter two, describe in some detail and include images of) Orions who are not green.
Hey protogoths do you have any screen caps from Star Trek of Orions that are white instead of green?
It's cool i guess that whoever you keep talking about let his imagination run wild and wrote books based on Star Trek.
But let's keep things to how it was in the actual Star Trek show yeah?
Again, you are fighting a lost battle. STO includes many elements which are taken directly from or inspired by soft canon sources. And STO is richer for that.
Edit to reply to your added bit in your edit:
It's also not merely one person's imagination. There are at least three novels and two tabletop RPG sourcebooks which refer to (and in the case of the latter two, describe in some detail and include images of) Orions who are not green.
Edit: Hmm, this repetitive discussion makes me wonder if the point isn't an earnest desire to discuss customization options but instead parhaps an attempt to bait an argument? Or perhaps I'm drinking too much coffee...
Comments
Same evidence in both cases: We haven't seen one.
Either both are cool from a canon perspective (just because we haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist) or neither are.
There can be arguments against either one individually but if you're going the canon route with this argument (presumably to showcase how "broken" the fandom is), then they're equally canon. Never seen either, either might or might not exist.
Granted, I have a mod to get rid of disco balls and a different mod to replace the music with Oobie Doobie. But no mod to replace flesh colored Orions in chainmail bikinis with James Cromwell. Clearly I've been slacking.
First reply by @artan42 prooves OP wrong and gets ignored throguhout the thread.
EDIT: Ah, it got adressed on page 3. Still, "Green is what defines an Orion" has been proven wrong. And while I personally think it's stupid that people select Orions for the bikinis and then colour them human I wouldn't however want to take option away from people, for what reason anyway? Immersion, canon? Nothing in this game is tailored to be immersive or be a representation of canon. Why start now? Yes, aside from trolling. Why do I read dental threads in the first place?
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Ahahaha why is anyone going to listen to someone so deranged they need to modify their client to stop disco from displaying
Great job admitting to ToS violations there mate, good work. Real players don't need disco removal or nude mods or whatever other filth you're cheating with.
The only evidence we have that white Orions aren't canon is because the only ones we have seen in the TV-series and movies are green. But we haven't seen disco balls in them either so obviously neither are they. You can't have it both ways mate.
My character Tsin'xing
By the way, there is no 'canon' that supports the use of buzz cuts on female Orions either. Reductio ad absurdum.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Green pride galaxy-wide, yo.
And yet my male characters can't wear their boardshorts off duty unless they're on Risa. It's gender bias!
I know there was a scene in one of the original series episodes where a male crewman is seen in shorts (I think they were tennis shorts, but anyway), so they are cannon for off duty, not just beachwear.
So, Orion bikinis, bras and panties should be restricted to Risa also. That would discourage the boys from playing white skinned Orion girls.
When these threads come up, I think that a few new options need to be included in the tailor. I'm thinking along the lines of "Mirror Universe Male Vest", "Combat-worn TOS Command Tunic", "Seen a Plasma Fire" variant, male dress options need to be generated.
I'm sorry, I just think it's unfair that Fred or Jane can dress their "fem" characters in revealing outfits to draw the red-blooded male eye at their characters, but those of us who wish to provide the ladies a touch of eye candy are stuck with the aforementioned pale male Orion option...
Dental, you're such a champion of these causes - and are known to have the ears of the Devs. Make it so...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
Also, gotta agree with previous statements, your logic fails when you say pale Orions aren't canon, but disco balls are, while we have seen neither on screen. Either both of them are canon (and I have no objections actually, everyone loves some disco every now and then) or neither are.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
...but leave holodeck a Star Trek game
Edit: I can see the only reason people play orions is so they can wear bikinis (facepalm)
^See, we cloth our women in Star Fleet. (Caption)
Though personally, I am even MORE turned off by certain hairstyles and poses that, when combined, give me a strong impression of an underage and sexualized toon. Blehhhh. If I'd been doing the art, I would've never put that in there.
But when it comes to Orions (and other times when revealing outfits are used), the whole "bikini armor" thing just strikes me as incredibly unrealistic. Not that Trek series have been great about realism in uniforms in general, though. The only truly realistic one was Enterprise, believe it or not, which basically updated the IRL NASA flight suit (can we say "uniform actually includes POCKETS," people?
But anyway, when I imagine how my captains would feel about that kind of thing (even back when I had a KDF), I've always imagined that wearing inappropriate uniforms--even including the miniskirts--would be censured as unprofessional behavior detracting from combat readiness. Yes, I know it could be classified as an "RP" perspective, but I just can't take it even slightly seriously to see my toons or BOFFs fighting in something that doesn't even address the most basic combat preparedness. (Yes, our toons should really all have armor on away missions given the types of wartime hazards encountered, but I'll at least accept a standard uniform with long sleeves and pants as a basic combat-ready option, along the lines of IRL BDU's.)
Again, I strongly doubt these IMO stupid options (bikini armor, "seductive"/unrealistic poses, non-Orion skin tones) are going anywhere, no matter how much I wish they would. This is just my opinion about it, and why I don't use it and why when I see particularly flagrant instances of this stuff, I tend to point my toon somewhere else so I'm not getting an eyeful.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Savik - Vulcan Fed Temporal Sci
Dahar Masters Fleet: Alphal'Fa - Alien KDF Engineer Qun'pau - Rom/KDF Engineer D'nesh - Orion KDF Scientist Ghen'khan - Liberated KDF Tac
Welcome to StarBug Online - to boldly Bug where no bug has been before!
STO player since November 2013
oh come on, are you telling me u never watched Superfriends? :P
but yeah i can see where this would grab most kids who just got hit with hormones, its why they do this so much in other games, look at lengths team ninja goes to, to make a buck! shameless devs!
^age 14 and 16
My character Tsin'xing
I'm a quote myself. Here ya go, these aren't boardshorts, but close enough. Men can wear shorts off duty, and not just on the beach.
It's canon!
What species is this?
A wookie
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greens still a good color ^^
My character Tsin'xing
And yes, in the first appearance of Orions it was said that they weren't all green.
My character Tsin'xing
-- Source
-- Source
Insisting that only hard canon material be used in STO is a lost cause; STO already includes a number of elements and inspirations from soft canon, whether hard canon purists like that or not. But this "proposal," while cloaked as such, is not about canon, hard or soft.
Again, you are fighting a lost battle. STO includes many elements which are taken directly from or inspired by soft canon sources. And STO is richer for that.
Edit to reply to your added bit in your edit:
It's also not merely one person's imagination. There are at least three novels and two tabletop RPG sourcebooks which refer to (and in the case of the latter two, describe in some detail and include images of) Orions who are not green.
So no screencaps then huh?
Flame bait it may be, but you can't deny that it's good for a quick laugh.
Anyone have popcorn?