Here's a screenshot of a non-green Orion straight from Memory Alpha
It's canon and non-green. Checkmate?
Thats... green. Really green.
Are you color blind?
It could also be someone's monitor settings. Computer graphics are notoriously inconsistent from device to device. What I'm looking at here is green, but definitely looks yellow-green. I could see where someone's monitor might display that with a yellower hue.
And of course some people really are color blind, in which case confusion is understandable since green is one of the most frequently affected colors.
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Edit: I might add accusing someone of being color blind could be interpreted as offensive, I wasn't offended mind you, but I'd suggest taking a bit more care before making accusations.
To me that second example is blue but I have also been accused of calling green (teal) things blue before so I may not be a great judge of that.
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Hey protogoths do you have any screen caps from Star Trek of Orions that are white instead of green?
It's cool i guess that whoever you keep talking about let his imagination run wild and wrote books based on Star Trek.
But let's keep things to how it was in the actual Star Trek show yeah?
Again, you are fighting a lost battle. STO includes many elements which are taken directly from or inspired by soft canon sources. And STO is richer for that.
Edit to reply to your added bit in your edit:
It's also not merely one person's imagination. There are at least three novels and two tabletop RPG sourcebooks which refer to (and in the case of the latter two, describe in some detail and include images of) Orions who are not green.
So no screencaps then huh?
All of these apply to your reply:
Plurium Interrogationum, A Dicto Simpliciter ad Dictum Secundum Quid, Ignoratio Elenchi, One-Sidedness.
See: http://www.fallacyfiles.org/index.html
Insistent use of "canon" to refer to "hard canon" only (as some have done in this thread) is Equivocation. You can also learn about this at the same link I provided in the previous paragraph.
I agree with OP. Human wannabes have the aliengen to work with. And note devs that this is a side-effect of [cultural] costume parts being limited by species.
I agree with OP. Human wannabes have the aliengen to work with. And note devs that this is a side-effect of [cultural] costume parts being limited by species.
Who cares about immersion... Pop more discoballs...
Here's a different idea: Disco balls are immersive.
I see your point, and for the record my KDF characters are "Alien" not Orion, still, I'm not about to take options away from players just because an alternative already exists.
Then there are the 'Human wannabes' who made Orions years ago and with this change would not be able to continue to be 'Human wannabes' without making a new character... A most inconvienient prospect to say the least.
As far as I am aware, Star Trek canon works much like Star Wars now does, since all but certain designated materials were made Legends. While I BADLY wish the FASA/Ford Klingon material had been made official instead of the Space Viking mess we got in TNG/DS9, unfortunately only hard canon has official status, which for the purposes of STO is onscreen canon and in-game material. Any material not expressly incorporated during gameplay or an official dev blog (much as I found the Iconian War to be mishandled, I'll give them that it is official) cannot be elevated to official status until it appears in game.
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As usual, Druk makes a reasonable appeal on the forums and, as usual, the trolls come out to flame the thread into oblivion.
I happen to think the OP makes a lot of sense to me for several reasons: 1. There are fleets in STO that kick all players who are NOT white Orions and do not have the boob slider maxxed out. What kind of nonsense is this?
If you want an excuse to make a "skimpy" toon, why not just make a green Orion, like you should anyway? It makes you question the mindset of the person making the toon to begin with. Very disturbing.
"Troll" does not mean "people who disagree with something I support." Of the replies to the OP before you posted this, only one might be considered "trolling" by some.
You claim there are several reasons for your support of the "proposal," of which you give ... one. And I should note that it is one which is often alleged, but which I have never been able to confirm, about one particular fleet (on the contrary, I've seen it contradicted by the presence of green Orions in said fleet). And even if there were a fleet with such restrictions, it's not like there aren't several other fleets with a focus on Orions, so why should you care what requirements any given fleet has for its membership?
As far as I am aware, Star Trek canon works much like Star Wars now does, since all but certain designated materials were made Legends. While I BADLY wish the FASA/Ford Klingon material had been made official instead of the Space Viking mess we got in TNG/DS9, unfortunately only hard canon has official status, which for the purposes of STO is onscreen canon and in-game material. Any material not expressly incorporated during gameplay or an official dev blog (much as I found the Iconian War to be mishandled, I'll give them that it is official) cannot be elevated to official status until it appears in game.
Therefore, the existence of "white Orions" in STO means that non-green Orions are canon for you, at least in terms of this game.
I disagree with any pontification about "canon" being restricted to official onscreen sources; Trekkers for decades have regarded licensed works (licensed works, mind you, not simply anything someone writes and sticks on a website) as "soft canon," and no amount of Papal Bulls from Paramount and/or CBS will change that. While Paramount and CBS legally own the IP, in a much more realistic sense, the IP belongs to the fans, without whom neither CBS nor Paramount would profit from the IP. Trek is now a cultural phenomenon, and not merely someone's property.
And finally, hard canon is not even infallible, let alone inerrant. Hard canon is filled with inconsistencies, continuity issues, and even blatant contradictions, most of which are never explained (a notable exception being the explanation in VOY of why there was no World War III on Earth in the 1990s). The constant appeal to hard canon by some in order to dismiss soft canon material is flawed because of this fact. Soft canon often does a far superior job of explaining these inconsistencies, continuity issues, and contradictions than hard canon does (when it even bothers to try).
You can't make humans with bird beaks or vulcans with deer antlers or lots of other stuff, for the most part they keep canon star trek races looking right.
That's not to say I don't like or enjoy certain soft canon materials, and some I consider to be of superior quality. Still, that quality unfortunately doesn't give it status until expressly incorporated. Now as far as STO is concerned we unfortunately have to contend with in-game being canon. BUT...I have no problem with asking for IMO stupid things to be revamped/retconned out. This is an example where I wish the executive decision would be made to do just that.
For the franchise *as a whole* though, STO is subject to being overridden at any time should official new onscreen prime universe material come out. Right now we don't seem to have that concern since JJverse is a separate continuity.
For fanfic though...I do take artistic liberties and make tweaks and improvements. But none of my "edits" have real, official status however much I hope people enjoy my writing. If I ever tried to make money off of it, I'd find out very quickly that it's not my property, even though I am quite invested in it.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
That's not to say I don't like or enjoy certain soft canon materials, and some I consider to be of superior quality. Still, that quality unfortunately doesn't give it status until expressly incorporated. Now as far as STO is concerned we unfortunately have to contend with in-game being canon. BUT...I have no problem with asking for IMO stupid things to be revamped/retconned out. This is an example where I wish the executive decision would be made to do just that.
For the franchise *as a whole* though, STO is subject to being overridden at any time should official new onscreen prime universe material come out. Right now we don't seem to have that concern since JJverse is a separate continuity.
For fanfic though...I do take artistic liberties and make tweaks and improvements. But none of my "edits" have real, official status however much I hope people enjoy my writing.
And fan fiction, fanfic, or "fanon," as some call it, is not the same thing as soft canon. Soft canon is licensed by Paramount and/or CBS. As such, soft canon should be considered as more authoritative than fan fiction.
FWIW, STO is soft canon.
And I do note that you have contradicted yourself here:
only hard canon has official status, which for the purposes of STO is onscreen canon and in-game material. Any material not expressly incorporated during gameplay or an official dev blog (much as I found the Iconian War to be mishandled, I'll give them that it is official) cannot be elevated to official status until it appears in game.
Now as far as STO is concerned we unfortunately have to contend with in-game being canon. BUT...I have no problem with asking for IMO stupid things to be revamped/retconned out. This is an example where I wish the executive decision would be made to do just that.
So on the one hand, Orions who are not green are "canon" by your definition, but yet you would see that done away with, which suggests that "canon" for you, in terms of Trek, or at least in terms of STO, is a rather fluid thing, rather than anything with which to beat others over the head in an effort to force compliance with what you view as canon.
But yet, you want this done away with, because ... I'm not exactly sure what your reason is. It doesn't fit your view of what is canon?
Which then leads us back to your first statement that it is canon ... but then you want it revamped/retconned out, which means it would no longer be canon, but it is canon at the moment, so ...
The point is that, regardless of hard canon purists' desires for STO to be entirely hard canon, it is not, nor indeed could it be, unless it were to stop being an MMORPG and become instead something which might better be named "The Sims: Star Trek" (if that particular game series were actually a simulation RPG, which it is not).
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,585Community Moderator
You are right, however... note that she is not the same green as we saw in the live action episodes. She is a lot lighter. Which indicates that lighter skin tones do exist.
Edit: Hmm, this repetitive discussion makes me wonder if the point isn't an earnest desire to discuss customization options but instead parhaps an attempt to bait an argument? Or perhaps I'm drinking too much coffee...
Flame bait it may be, but you can't deny that it's good for a quick laugh.
Anyone have popcorn?
There can never be enough popcorn.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
What gets me is that you cant made red bolians or andorians, so the bolians and andorians you see in STO are all blue and hey, it looks like star trek!
You can't make humans with bird beaks or vulcans with deer antlers or lots of other stuff, for the most part they keep canon star trek races looking right.
Except for Orions. Orions, the green skinned aliens from Star Trek. I see so many that simply aren't green, that aren't orions at all.
And they have an awesome Alien creator to do all the wackiness! Lets keep orions green like they're meant to be!
Changing skin color is not the same as changing body parts, and would in fact be the most notable evidence of cross-breeding. Mind you, my lone Orion captain does in fact have green skin, but the bridge officers come from some rather far-flung origins, so there are several variations among them. And keep in mind that Orions left their home world according to canon, so the very evolutionary influences that created that skin color may have long since been absent from their chosen environment.
And besides, what happened to IDIC? I thought that was a guiding principal of SF Dental?
Expendables Fleet: Andrew - Bajoran Fed Engineer Ken'taura - Rom/Fed Scientist Gwyllim - Human Fed Delta Tac Savik - Vulcan Fed Temporal Sci Dahar Masters Fleet: Alphal'Fa - Alien KDF Engineer Qun'pau - Rom/KDF Engineer D'nesh - Orion KDF Scientist Ghen'khan - Liberated KDF Tac Welcome to StarBug Online - to boldly Bug where no bug has been before!
STO player since November 2013
This is the Star Trek game, you cant make vulcans with neon pink skin for a reason. Same reason you cant make humans with dinosaur heads. Or bolians with ferengi ears.
That argument makes no sense.
Also this is starting to turn into less of a "Proposal" and more of a ranting protest over options available to one single species of the KDF that is rather popular with the KDF players. And because KDF players have less options available to them in terms of customization, they are rather defensive of what options they do have.
Comments
Here's a screenshot of a non-green Orion straight from Memory Alpha
It's canon and non-green. Checkmate?
Thats... green. Really green.
Are you color blind?
Then there's this guy:
and his crew:
My character Tsin'xing
It could also be someone's monitor settings. Computer graphics are notoriously inconsistent from device to device. What I'm looking at here is green, but definitely looks yellow-green. I could see where someone's monitor might display that with a yellower hue.
And of course some people really are color blind, in which case confusion is understandable since green is one of the most frequently affected colors.
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I'd say more yellow than green, but mark here has a good example, that's more blue than anything else.
Edit: I might add accusing someone of being color blind could be interpreted as offensive, I wasn't offended mind you, but I'd suggest taking a bit more care before making accusations.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
All of these apply to your reply:
Plurium Interrogationum, A Dicto Simpliciter ad Dictum Secundum Quid, Ignoratio Elenchi, One-Sidedness.
See: http://www.fallacyfiles.org/index.html
Insistent use of "canon" to refer to "hard canon" only (as some have done in this thread) is Equivocation. You can also learn about this at the same link I provided in the previous paragraph.
Helpful Tools: Dictionary.com - Logical fallacies - Random generator - Word generator - Color tool - Extra Credits - List of common English language errors - New T6 Big booty tutorial
I see your point, and for the record my KDF characters are "Alien" not Orion, still, I'm not about to take options away from players just because an alternative already exists.
Then there are the 'Human wannabes' who made Orions years ago and with this change would not be able to continue to be 'Human wannabes' without making a new character... A most inconvienient prospect to say the least.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
"Troll" does not mean "people who disagree with something I support." Of the replies to the OP before you posted this, only one might be considered "trolling" by some.
You claim there are several reasons for your support of the "proposal," of which you give ... one. And I should note that it is one which is often alleged, but which I have never been able to confirm, about one particular fleet (on the contrary, I've seen it contradicted by the presence of green Orions in said fleet). And even if there were a fleet with such restrictions, it's not like there aren't several other fleets with a focus on Orions, so why should you care what requirements any given fleet has for its membership?
Therefore, the existence of "white Orions" in STO means that non-green Orions are canon for you, at least in terms of this game.
I disagree with any pontification about "canon" being restricted to official onscreen sources; Trekkers for decades have regarded licensed works (licensed works, mind you, not simply anything someone writes and sticks on a website) as "soft canon," and no amount of Papal Bulls from Paramount and/or CBS will change that. While Paramount and CBS legally own the IP, in a much more realistic sense, the IP belongs to the fans, without whom neither CBS nor Paramount would profit from the IP. Trek is now a cultural phenomenon, and not merely someone's property.
And finally, hard canon is not even infallible, let alone inerrant. Hard canon is filled with inconsistencies, continuity issues, and even blatant contradictions, most of which are never explained (a notable exception being the explanation in VOY of why there was no World War III on Earth in the 1990s). The constant appeal to hard canon by some in order to dismiss soft canon material is flawed because of this fact. Soft canon often does a far superior job of explaining these inconsistencies, continuity issues, and contradictions than hard canon does (when it even bothers to try).
Slippery Slope
I did. There was an Orion in ENT with blue skin that looked like an Andorian. Since it's from a TV show it's considered hard canon.
This means that Orions in STO should have access to blue skin and antennas in addition to everything they already have. My logic is infallible.
For the franchise *as a whole* though, STO is subject to being overridden at any time should official new onscreen prime universe material come out. Right now we don't seem to have that concern since JJverse is a separate continuity.
For fanfic though...I do take artistic liberties and make tweaks and improvements. But none of my "edits" have real, official status however much I hope people enjoy my writing. If I ever tried to make money off of it, I'd find out very quickly that it's not my property, even though I am quite invested in it.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
And fan fiction, fanfic, or "fanon," as some call it, is not the same thing as soft canon. Soft canon is licensed by Paramount and/or CBS. As such, soft canon should be considered as more authoritative than fan fiction.
FWIW, STO is soft canon.
And I do note that you have contradicted yourself here:
So on the one hand, Orions who are not green are "canon" by your definition, but yet you would see that done away with, which suggests that "canon" for you, in terms of Trek, or at least in terms of STO, is a rather fluid thing, rather than anything with which to beat others over the head in an effort to force compliance with what you view as canon.
But yet, you want this done away with, because ... I'm not exactly sure what your reason is. It doesn't fit your view of what is canon?
Which then leads us back to your first statement that it is canon ... but then you want it revamped/retconned out, which means it would no longer be canon, but it is canon at the moment, so ...
The point is that, regardless of hard canon purists' desires for STO to be entirely hard canon, it is not, nor indeed could it be, unless it were to stop being an MMORPG and become instead something which might better be named "The Sims: Star Trek" (if that particular game series were actually a simulation RPG, which it is not).
There can never be enough popcorn.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
Agreed.
Changing skin color is not the same as changing body parts, and would in fact be the most notable evidence of cross-breeding. Mind you, my lone Orion captain does in fact have green skin, but the bridge officers come from some rather far-flung origins, so there are several variations among them. And keep in mind that Orions left their home world according to canon, so the very evolutionary influences that created that skin color may have long since been absent from their chosen environment.
And besides, what happened to IDIC? I thought that was a guiding principal of SF Dental?
Savik - Vulcan Fed Temporal Sci
Dahar Masters Fleet: Alphal'Fa - Alien KDF Engineer Qun'pau - Rom/KDF Engineer D'nesh - Orion KDF Scientist Ghen'khan - Liberated KDF Tac
Welcome to StarBug Online - to boldly Bug where no bug has been before!
STO player since November 2013
That argument makes no sense.
Also this is starting to turn into less of a "Proposal" and more of a ranting protest over options available to one single species of the KDF that is rather popular with the KDF players. And because KDF players have less options available to them in terms of customization, they are rather defensive of what options they do have.