What gets me is that you cant made red bolians or andorians, so the bolians and andorians you see in STO are all blue and hey, it looks like star trek!
You can't make humans with bird beaks or vulcans with deer antlers or lots of other stuff, for the most part they keep canon star trek races looking right.
Except for Orions. Orions, the green skinned aliens from Star Trek. I see so many that simply aren't green, that aren't orions at all.
And they have an awesome Alien creator to do all the wackiness! Lets keep orions green like they're meant to be!
Changing skin color is not the same as changing body parts, and would in fact be the most notable evidence of cross-breeding. Mind you, my lone Orion captain does in fact have green skin, but the bridge officers come from some rather far-flung origins, so there are several variations among them. And keep in mind that Orions left their home world according to canon, so the very evolutionary influences that created that skin color may have long since been absent from their chosen environment.
And besides, what happened to IDIC? I thought that was a guiding principal of SF Dental?
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,523Community Moderator
This is the Star Trek game, you cant make vulcans with neon pink skin for a reason. Same reason you cant make humans with dinosaur heads. Or bolians with ferengi ears.
That argument makes no sense.
Also this is starting to turn into less of a "Proposal" and more of a ranting protest over options available to one single species of the KDF that is rather popular with the KDF players. And because KDF players have less options available to them in terms of customization, they are rather defensive of what options they do have.
We are talking about skin color. In the absence of scans of internal organs,, there is no proving that non-Green Orions are indeed not Orions. (You see how those type arguments work).
By the way, if hard canon is being invoked, a T1 Constitution Class should be able to absorb the energy of 450 Photon Torpedoes. Other ships MMV (source - The Changeling). This thread has moved to the point of monks debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
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'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Lets keep in mind that the director of the animated series, Hal Sutherland, was colour blind. This led to TAS featuring many colouring errors.
These include: Kirk wearing a red uniform and McCoy wearing a yellow one at times, pink Kzintis, pink Klingon uniforms and pink tribbles.
The episode guide on Memory Alpha also explicitly states that the Orions were coloured slightly differently than usual due to 'colouring difficulties', and describes this as 'unintentional'.
So its very dubious to claim these shades are appropriate based upon a single appearance on TAS (which was a colouring error). It would also require you to accept as canon Kirk and McCoy wearing the wrong uniforms, a pink uniformed branch of the Klingon Navy, and the existence of giant Spock clones, magic and Satan.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,523Community Moderator
Um... No.
All the Orion options are shades of Green, ranging from very pale to very dark. This was put in AS INTENDED from day one. This is not a bug. It would be different if blue was an actual option for Orions. Your "proposal" = removing all options except maybe 2 shades of very obivously Green all based on the fact that that was what we saw in the few episodes they were in. How do you know skin tones for Orions aren't as varied as they are for humans?
Why is all the most messed up and weird stuff always from that godawful novelty cartoon? I wonder if they would have believed it back then the ways it would be twisted later on. I bet they couldn't even have imagined some of this stuff.
isn't only one episode of it even considered star trek canon or something?
Anyway, it's just remarkable that whenever people are trying to defend something creepy they always go back to "the animated series." That black mark on trek.
which was produced by the great bird himself, and is probably a large part of why we still have Star Trek....
But I have to say that the series with the most horrible plot ideas was TOS. No sense of continuity, heck they killed of an ensign only to have him on the BRIDGE in later episode. I will admit that TAS had lots of weird ideas, but they were actually pretty tame compared to TOS.
I'd just like to point out that all the absurd arguments against green only Orions would also require dev time to implement, some more time than others...
What this really boils down to is what a few people have determined is "proper" appearance for the Orion race, again green on an Orion is iconic and appropriate. Of this I have no arguments, however, since implementing this would also require dev time, would yield little-to-no profit for Cryptic, and would upset just as many (if not more) people than it would satisfy, I'd wager that the Cryptic devs would likely just ignore this request.
I'm actually somewhat surprised that this topic is still around and causing arguments, then again...
I'm seriously thinking this thread is some kind of 'flame bait' attempt.
I'd just like to point out that all the absurd arguments against green only Orions would also require dev time to implement, some more time than others...
What this really boils down to is what a few people have determined is "proper" appearance for the Orion race, again green on an Orion is iconic and appropriate. Of this I have no arguments, however, since implementing this would also require dev time, would yield little-to-no profit for Cryptic, and would upset just as many (if not more) people than it would satisfy, I'd wager that the Cryptic devs would likely just ignore this request.
I'm actually somewhat surprised that this topic is still around and causing arguments, then again...
I'm seriously thinking this thread is some kind of 'flame bait' attempt.
They're meant to fix bugs it's part of their job.
And removing one or two entries from the array that sets the options for the orion color palate isn't exactly hard work.
And they do that kind of stuff anyway.
Your objection is no objection at all.
Whether it takes 5 minutes of the better part of the afternoon, it would still take time and since there is nothing functionally wrong with the palette in its current form, not to mention that Orions only "usually" come in green, an expanded palette would be the prudent course of action in this matter.
I do, however, fail to see any valid reasons to justify the expense (however little) to Cryptic.
There is also the issue that people who like their current palette for Orions would lose those options for customization, in some cases (RP mainly) could invalidate the reasons for making them.
Also, why does it bother you what other players customize their characters with?
Green is an option for Orions so you ALREADY have your iconic green Orions.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,523Community Moderator
Because orions arent real, they are a fictional race from the star trek episodes, and are only the things that were in the star trek episodes. There are no further facts about them.
Then why are you not ranting about the wide range of blues the Andorians have? If we're supposed to only have a certain Green for Orions, why should Andorians have just as many options as well? Let's just strip them of all options except for what was seen on screen! And while we're at it, lets make all Romulans have the same haircut!
If you're going to rant about details and not go all out, you're a bit of a hypocrite. Also... this whole argument over "Proper" Orions is rather stupid, and is going to lead to a flame war.
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'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Protogoth, no one is clicking your links or taking your text seriously. No one cares enough about your posts to read through lists of fallacies.
I still don't see a screenshot. We all can be master logicians and wannabe forum mods, but I believe we asked for a simple screenshot showing Orions that weren't green.
The example posted by Orion was, on my screen, definitely green. The screenshot posted by Mark definitely appeared much bluer than the one before, but I would still call that blue-green. It's not completely blue.
That being said, I think I'm going to have to reluctantly agree with Gulberat, that the bikini-armor options are also incredibly stupid, unrealistic, and set a disturbing precedent (re: underaged, sexualized toons). We've all seen examples of bleached, skimpy toons with bios describing a backstory of sexual abuse and slavery and hints that said character is possibly underaged.
Bikinis, bleached Orions, sexy poses, etc. are definitely a money maker, but do we really need these kinds of "people" playing the game to begin with? Make Orions green (like they should be), remove any hairstyle or look that can potentially be used to create underaged toons, and maybe drop some of the overly sexualized poses.
This topic is not in any way about me, so kindly stop trying to change the subject to me in an effort to flamebait me.
Yes, we all (or at least many of us) have seen examples of what you refer to above, but the constant assertions from certain people
1. that everyone in this game is underage
2. that any and all RP in STO is ERP
3. that any and all ERP in STO is pedophilia
are nonsensical and demonstrably false in all three particulars.
In addition, the whole should not be punished for the excesses and abuses of some. Taking rights or permissions away from everyone in an effort to stop excesses an abuses by a portion of the population is generally referred to as "draconian" and "overreaction."
You can claim to dislike it, but soft canon does not restrict Orions to green skin only.
You can claim to dislike it, but STO includes elements and inspirations from soft canon.
You can claim that you would prefer that STO be limited to hard canon material only, but that would mean that none of us would be doing any of the missions which currently exist in STO, but in fact everyone would simply be replaying roles in episodes from the series and from the movies.
You can make all sorts of claims about what the motivation(s) for this "proposal" is/are, but this is actually nothing but a long-running feud between certain fleets in-game, and now you're trying to have Cryptic "punish" one side for the feud in a manner which affects everyone in the game, including those of us who have no part in your little drama.
And people are people (even you), so putting the word in scare quotes when referring to those you dislike is a bit ... obvious, don't you think?
Why don't we just give the bikini options that Orion's have to every other playable species in the game?
time saver. remove what is supposed to keep bikinis on risa. that way creepy people get more options and people worry about "canon" have more to complain about so everyone wins.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
I think we should just remove them from the KDF side. Of any allied Orion's in ST, two were seen as part of Starfleet non as part of the Klingon Empire.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
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Nobody's posted a single screen cap from Star Trek of an Orion that wasn't green.
I did. There was an Orion in ENT with blue skin that looked like an Andorian. Since it's from a TV show it's considered hard canon.
This means that Orions in STO should have access to blue skin and antennas in addition to everything they already have. My logic is infallible.
huh? wasnt it wearing an andorian disguise? Are you honestly going to sit there with a straight face and tell us that orions should have an andorian option because "some orions look exactly like andorians, look at this screenshot?"
Really?
If it had been red, would it have been a good andorian disguise? Why or why not?
You make it sound like the orion was wearing blue make-up. According to canon he was surgically altered. He had skin with blue pigment. He wouldn't make a good spy if his makeup kept rubbing off every time he touched someone.
This means orions, if they choose to, can have blue skin. And antennas. If someone wants to make a orion with blue skin and antennas, they have a good canon reason to do so.
Nobody's posted a single screen cap from Star Trek of an Orion that wasn't green.
I did. There was an Orion in ENT with blue skin that looked like an Andorian. Since it's from a TV show it's considered hard canon.
This means that Orions in STO should have access to blue skin and antennas in addition to everything they already have. My logic is infallible.
huh? wasnt it wearing an andorian disguise? Are you honestly going to sit there with a straight face and tell us that orions should have an andorian option because "some orions look exactly like andorians, look at this screenshot?"
Really?
If it had been red, would it have been a good andorian disguise? Why or why not?
You make it sound like the orion was wearing blue make-up. According to canon he was surgically altered. He had skin with blue pigment. He wouldn't make a good spy if his makeup kept rubbing off every time he touched someone.
This means orions, if they choose to, can have blue skin. And antennas. If someone wants to make a orion with blue skin and antennas, they have a good canon reason to do so.
Not sure about the 23rd century, but by the 24th, there seems to be a way to alter skin tones for infiltration purposes without that problem. The Cardassians have employed it multiple times onscreen (Raymond Boone, Seska, Kira/Iliana Ghemor, Dukat), and in one case we saw the full process and reversal in both directions without Pah-Wraith aid (Kira). I'm not sure whether the Orions would had had access to that tech or if it was a Cardassian invention. Given that we never see the process reversed on that fake Andorian, I can neither confirm nor deny that they are using the same tech later proven to be in use by the Cardassians.
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Nobody's posted a single screen cap from Star Trek of an Orion that wasn't green.
I did. There was an Orion in ENT with blue skin that looked like an Andorian. Since it's from a TV show it's considered hard canon.
This means that Orions in STO should have access to blue skin and antennas in addition to everything they already have. My logic is infallible.
huh? wasnt it wearing an andorian disguise? Are you honestly going to sit there with a straight face and tell us that orions should have an andorian option because "some orions look exactly like andorians, look at this screenshot?"
Really?
If it had been red, would it have been a good andorian disguise? Why or why not?
You make it sound like the orion was wearing blue make-up. According to canon he was surgically altered. He had skin with blue pigment. He wouldn't make a good spy if his makeup kept rubbing off every time he touched someone.
This means orions, if they choose to, can have blue skin. And antennas. If someone wants to make a orion with blue skin and antennas, they have a good canon reason to do so.
Not sure about the 23rd century, but by the 24th, there seems to be a way to alter skin tones for infiltration purposes without that problem. The Cardassians have employed it multiple times onscreen (Raymond Boone, Seska, Kira/Iliana Ghemor, Dukat), and in one case we saw the full process and reversal in both directions without Pah-Wraith aid (Kira). I'm not sure whether the Orions would had had access to that tech or if it was a Cardassian invention. Given that we never see the process reversed on that fake Andorian, I can neither confirm nor deny that they are using the same tech later proven to be in use by the Cardassians.
I would like it if they simply made a dropdown or special costume slot called "Infiltration" with as unlimited options as they could get, basically an "Alien Plus" for all species with more costume options, cross faction options, all species specific costumes, etc. It would save on frustration over character respecs when a new species gets added. And it would spur creativity to have that in the Foundry.
Or maybe make it "everything but official KDF and Starfleet uniforms and items that clip", including some extra exotic alien head options. Maybe have it work so that wearing your "infiltration" costume blocks out access to faction-locked vendors, gets rid of the "vendor tax" on commodity brokers, and causes some different mission dialogue behaviors.
I would like it if they simply made a dropdown or special costume slot called "Infiltration" with as unlimited options as they could get, basically an "Alien Plus" for all species with more costume options, cross faction options, all species specific costumes, etc. It would save on frustration over character respecs when a new species gets added. And it would spur creativity to have that in the Foundry.
Or maybe make it "everything but official KDF and Starfleet uniforms and items that clip", including some extra exotic alien head options. Maybe have it work so that wearing your "infiltration" costume blocks out access to faction-locked vendors, gets rid of the "vendor tax" on commodity brokers, and causes some different mission dialogue behaviors.
I like this idea quite a lot. Might need a bit of tweaking, but the basic idea is very appealing.
You can claim to dislike it, but soft canon does not restrict Orions to green skin only.
You can claim to dislike it, but STO includes elements and inspirations from soft canon.
You can claim that you would prefer that STO be limited to hard canon material only, but that would mean that none of us would be doing any of the missions which currently exist in STO, but in fact everyone would simply be replaying roles in episodes from the series and from the movies.
You can make all sorts of claims about what the motivation(s) for this "proposal" is/are, but this is actually nothing but a long-running feud between certain fleets in-game, and now you're trying to have Cryptic "punish" one side for the feud in a manner which affects everyone in the game, including those of us who have no part in your little drama.
And people are people (even you), so putting the word in scare quotes when referring to those you dislike is a bit ... obvious, don't you think?
Your logic is faulty on two counts. Here's why:
You can claim to dislike it, but STO includes elements and inspirations from soft canon.
This statement is true. However, it is a fallacy to claim that simply because STO features some elements drawn from 'soft canon' sources, this means that OTHER or ALL soft canon sources are valid canonical sources for STO. Only those soft-canon elements directly featured in Star Trek Online by the devs can be considered canonical for the purposes of STO.
Put simply, STO does draw upon a limited number of soft canon elements - to give an example it clearly had a President Nanietta Bacco at one point. This doesn't mean that other or all soft canon sources - even those relating to Nanietta Bacco - are canonical for STO. If they were, where is the Typhon Pact, what happened to the suicide of Sela which took place several years before STO is set, etc? Clearly, even though these sources feature Bacco, they are mutually contradictory and therefore not fully canonical to STO.
The use of such material does not elevate other soft canon sources to STO canon. All that is canonical here, is that STO had a Federation President called Nanietta Bacco at one point. Nothing more.
To support your argument you say that some 'soft canon' sources feature Orions of differing skin colours. The 'soft canon' sources you cite are the long-defunct FASA roleplaying game and the Animated Series. AFAIK STO does not currently feature any material from the FASA RPG or TAS. Therefore there is no evidence which supports their being in any way canon in relation to STO at present.
However, even if they were considered canon for STO, it still doesn't make ANY difference to the proposal to correct Orion skin colour palette options. Here's why:
You can claim to dislike it, but soft canon does not restrict Orions to green skin only.
The argument is not to restrict Orions to green skin only (though it may have been phrased by others as such at times), simply to remove the non-canonical 'white' skin option.
With respect to TAS - I have already cited the colouring errors which took place and that the colouring of several male Orions as blue was 'unintentional' due to a technical issue. However, even if we accept the existence of blue (male) Orions - how does this support having a 'white' option available (when this was not featured in TAS) and no blue option (which was)?
As for the FASA RPG - I understand it lists the Orion skin colours as 'ruddy', 'green' and 'grey'. Aside from the default green, none of these colour options are currently in the game. If FASA was regarded as a canonical source they presumably would be.
So even if we accept your arguments about the canoncity of other books/games - none of these support white Orions.
I skipped to the last few lines because it's a you-know-who post, but this is in no way a "feud" between several fleets. If you are referring to differences we once had with a certain fleet with "Orions" in the name, that was literally almost two years ago.
We simply want Orions to be green. You can scream soft canon all night long, but I want examples of non-green Orions. I haven't seen any so far, so I would like this bug fixed so Orions can been green, like they have always meant to be.
It's a little fishy for a fleet to collectively want something. It suggests that you perhaps decided your position in advance as part of a game to out "perverts" and not for the stated reasons.
And this is what makes your group frustrating. If you're going to have anonymity on the internet, it needs to come with ZERO insincerity, zero disingenuousness, zero ulterior motives, zero disgust for fellow humans for being nerds or autistic (come on, you guys routinely use very ugly autism slurs publicly) or easily riled.
It makes you seem like a worthless, evil human being.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,523Community Moderator
AFAIK STO does not currently feature any material from the FASA RPG or TAS. Therefore there is no evidence which supports their being in any way canon in relation to STO at present.
Caitians were first introduced in TAS, via the character of M'Ress.
AFAIK STO does not currently feature any material from the FASA RPG or TAS. Therefore there is no evidence which supports their being in any way canon in relation to STO at present.
Caitians were first introduced in TAS, via the character of M'Ress.
They may have first featured in TAS, but were subsequently featured in ST4: The Voyage Home: so are not soft canon.
If you want your Orion to be green, make it green.
If you don't want your Orion to be green, don't make it green.
If you don't like the fact that someone does or doesn't have a green Orion, get over it, it's not your Orion to judge. Look away if it offense you so much.
Done.
Retired. I'm now in search for that perfect space anomaly.
If they were going to spend time on the Orion character costumes, I'd be happier if they fixed the bare chest options to allow the males to use the metal parts they should have (currently non-NPCs only get to use them with armour, and fix the palette of that and the head pieces too please) and the females to wear KDF armour parts over the "bikini" tops (and pref. versions of the male's leather jacket and vest too).
As to the OP, it depends on which version of canon you take as current (hence the options presumably, and that's even before you get into the range of shades comparable human skin can have due to environmental/mixed heritage reasons). While you can't really count the TAS Orion shades (as mentioned before, it's been documented since that the guy in charge of the colouring was colour blind :P), it was stated in the original series pilot that green Orions were a subset of the Orion race and the other Orions shown just looked like white humans (in Pike's Talosian-induced rather dubious fantasy). Enterprise had them as green only when they appeared, and is arguably the most canon out of their screen appearances to date.
Because making Human-look-alike female Orions has nothing to do with the fact you can put them in a ridiculously skimpy outfit that no other species can wear, so that maxed out boob slider has its dues... oh wait.
Seriously, if this was about diversity, you can still use alien-gen character, if you are true to the claim it's not about the skimpy outfits. That being said - I'm not saying restrict the colors of Orions, thus going too far, and defo have no interest in restricting options for anyone just because I dislike something, but I do think that people who skimp out their female characters for whatever odd fantasies are a low brow; and I make no denial of the fact that laughs and funny discussions always commence, whenever I see a "bleached" Orions. Just visiting Dyson BZ provides the "Barbie-squads" at large, and is a source of many facepalms. Just my opinion though. Duh.
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Last I checked, Orion captains made up something like 0.5% of all STO characters, so this is a petty objection, IMO. As others have indicated, interspecies breeding will affect the phenotype of any race, so there must be some degree of flexibility in creating ANY character. Some combinations would just not be possible (swapping body parts, for instance), and some species just would not be able to cross-breed, but some superficial variations are inevitable. Until Voyager, I would never have imagined that there could be black Vulcans, but there you have it!
Heh, also.... it IS canon that not all Orions are green.
Nobody's posted a single screen cap from Star Trek of an Orion that wasn't green.
Even in that awful novelty cartoon they did, the proper Orion's were green and the goofy ones were blue-green.
Actually, there wasn't a single Orion in TAS, that is what you would consider the "right" color. Devna was a pale yellowish color, and the guys in the pirate ship were light blue-green.
And yes, in the first appearance of Orions it was said that they weren't all green.
They made a point of putting emphasis on the word 'green' when describing Orion 'slave women', but so much so, that it strongly implies a couple of other things.
One is illustrated by the way we would use a color descriptive for a human in English (He is a white man, she is a black woman) and if you just add the necessity of galactic racial clarification, you get the perfectly logical relationship between a 'red Human Lakota man', and a 'green Orion slave woman. If you like to see this example as it fits a different universe, you have a Green Barsoomian woman, a White Barsoomian man, a Yellow Barsoomian woman, and a Black Barsoomian man, a 'red Barsoomian slave woman' not to mention a Barsoomian plant man just to give you more logical examples of what that choice of language carries with it in the form of subtle communication.
A second subtle suggestion is that the Orions did keep green slave women who at the time were not defined as specifically being racially Orion. This second seems less likely after Enterprise, but even Enterprise does not negate the previously noted verbal implications made by language usage.
Basically they were in the Rigel system which has so many inhabitable worlds it makes accurately tracking the racial types to be found there very difficult, especially since it was a galactic trading hub. Who really knows what 'race' the green slaves represent? A subject species lumped together under a common Orion political umbrella along with their masters?
In terrestrial terms we have 'Americans'. Do we need to break this down further? Do we realize how many kinds of 'Americans' there are? Which 'Americans' are canon, basing the question off of the first six episodes of the western TV show "Gunsmoke", for example. If we are only seeing a single slice of their whole culture most of the time, we would have the wrong impression from the get go.
Are there any other people who took Anthropology in college? If so, you know that initial examination of a culture has a high chance of establishing misconceptions about that culture if not handled carefully. You can also see how an extraterrestrial people might get the idea that all Humans are some shade of white, if they learned about us from our earliest TV broadcasts.
Because making Human-look-alike female Orions has nothing to do with the fact you can put them in a ridiculously skimpy outfit that no other species can wear, so that maxed out boob slider has its dues... oh wait.
Seriously, if this was about diversity, you can still use alien-gen character, if you are true to the claim it's not about the skimpy outfits. That being said - I'm not saying restrict the colors of Orions, thus going too far, and defo have no interest in restricting options for anyone just because I dislike something, but I do think that people who skimp out their female characters for whatever odd fantasies are a low brow; and I make no denial of the fact that laughs and funny discussions always commence, whenever I see a "bleached" Orions. Just visiting Dyson BZ provides the "Barbie-squads" at large, and is a source of many facepalms. Just my opinion though. Duh.
So madame moderator, do you support the op and suggest that he is a good judge between the acceptable and the freakish? I ask because here's what he said about you:
Comments
Agreed.
Changing skin color is not the same as changing body parts, and would in fact be the most notable evidence of cross-breeding. Mind you, my lone Orion captain does in fact have green skin, but the bridge officers come from some rather far-flung origins, so there are several variations among them. And keep in mind that Orions left their home world according to canon, so the very evolutionary influences that created that skin color may have long since been absent from their chosen environment.
And besides, what happened to IDIC? I thought that was a guiding principal of SF Dental?
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That argument makes no sense.
Also this is starting to turn into less of a "Proposal" and more of a ranting protest over options available to one single species of the KDF that is rather popular with the KDF players. And because KDF players have less options available to them in terms of customization, they are rather defensive of what options they do have.
By the way, if hard canon is being invoked, a T1 Constitution Class should be able to absorb the energy of 450 Photon Torpedoes. Other ships MMV (source - The Changeling). This thread has moved to the point of monks debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
These include: Kirk wearing a red uniform and McCoy wearing a yellow one at times, pink Kzintis, pink Klingon uniforms and pink tribbles.
The episode guide on Memory Alpha also explicitly states that the Orions were coloured slightly differently than usual due to 'colouring difficulties', and describes this as 'unintentional'.
So its very dubious to claim these shades are appropriate based upon a single appearance on TAS (which was a colouring error). It would also require you to accept as canon Kirk and McCoy wearing the wrong uniforms, a pink uniformed branch of the Klingon Navy, and the existence of giant Spock clones, magic and Satan.
All the Orion options are shades of Green, ranging from very pale to very dark. This was put in AS INTENDED from day one. This is not a bug. It would be different if blue was an actual option for Orions. Your "proposal" = removing all options except maybe 2 shades of very obivously Green all based on the fact that that was what we saw in the few episodes they were in. How do you know skin tones for Orions aren't as varied as they are for humans?
But I have to say that the series with the most horrible plot ideas was TOS. No sense of continuity, heck they killed of an ensign only to have him on the BRIDGE in later episode. I will admit that TAS had lots of weird ideas, but they were actually pretty tame compared to TOS.
My character Tsin'xing
What this really boils down to is what a few people have determined is "proper" appearance for the Orion race, again green on an Orion is iconic and appropriate. Of this I have no arguments, however, since implementing this would also require dev time, would yield little-to-no profit for Cryptic, and would upset just as many (if not more) people than it would satisfy, I'd wager that the Cryptic devs would likely just ignore this request.
I'm actually somewhat surprised that this topic is still around and causing arguments, then again...
I'm seriously thinking this thread is some kind of 'flame bait' attempt.
My character Tsin'xing
Whether it takes 5 minutes of the better part of the afternoon, it would still take time and since there is nothing functionally wrong with the palette in its current form, not to mention that Orions only "usually" come in green, an expanded palette would be the prudent course of action in this matter.
I do, however, fail to see any valid reasons to justify the expense (however little) to Cryptic.
There is also the issue that people who like their current palette for Orions would lose those options for customization, in some cases (RP mainly) could invalidate the reasons for making them.
Also, why does it bother you what other players customize their characters with?
Green is an option for Orions so you ALREADY have your iconic green Orions.
Then why are you not ranting about the wide range of blues the Andorians have? If we're supposed to only have a certain Green for Orions, why should Andorians have just as many options as well? Let's just strip them of all options except for what was seen on screen! And while we're at it, lets make all Romulans have the same haircut!
If you're going to rant about details and not go all out, you're a bit of a hypocrite. Also... this whole argument over "Proper" Orions is rather stupid, and is going to lead to a flame war.
Its also ridiculus.
Yes they fix bugs, but this is not a bug. This was part of the design from Day One.
I will let a more astute person than I reply - 'After a time, you may find that having is not so pleasing a thing, after all, as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true.'
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
This topic is not in any way about me, so kindly stop trying to change the subject to me in an effort to flamebait me.
Yes, we all (or at least many of us) have seen examples of what you refer to above, but the constant assertions from certain people
1. that everyone in this game is underage
2. that any and all RP in STO is ERP
3. that any and all ERP in STO is pedophilia
are nonsensical and demonstrably false in all three particulars.
In addition, the whole should not be punished for the excesses and abuses of some. Taking rights or permissions away from everyone in an effort to stop excesses an abuses by a portion of the population is generally referred to as "draconian" and "overreaction."
You can claim to dislike it, but soft canon does not restrict Orions to green skin only.
You can claim to dislike it, but STO includes elements and inspirations from soft canon.
You can claim that you would prefer that STO be limited to hard canon material only, but that would mean that none of us would be doing any of the missions which currently exist in STO, but in fact everyone would simply be replaying roles in episodes from the series and from the movies.
You can make all sorts of claims about what the motivation(s) for this "proposal" is/are, but this is actually nothing but a long-running feud between certain fleets in-game, and now you're trying to have Cryptic "punish" one side for the feud in a manner which affects everyone in the game, including those of us who have no part in your little drama.
And people are people (even you), so putting the word in scare quotes when referring to those you dislike is a bit ... obvious, don't you think?
time saver. remove what is supposed to keep bikinis on risa. that way creepy people get more options and people worry about "canon" have more to complain about so everyone wins.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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You make it sound like the orion was wearing blue make-up. According to canon he was surgically altered. He had skin with blue pigment. He wouldn't make a good spy if his makeup kept rubbing off every time he touched someone.
This means orions, if they choose to, can have blue skin. And antennas. If someone wants to make a orion with blue skin and antennas, they have a good canon reason to do so.
Not sure about the 23rd century, but by the 24th, there seems to be a way to alter skin tones for infiltration purposes without that problem. The Cardassians have employed it multiple times onscreen (Raymond Boone, Seska, Kira/Iliana Ghemor, Dukat), and in one case we saw the full process and reversal in both directions without Pah-Wraith aid (Kira). I'm not sure whether the Orions would had had access to that tech or if it was a Cardassian invention. Given that we never see the process reversed on that fake Andorian, I can neither confirm nor deny that they are using the same tech later proven to be in use by the Cardassians.
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Human, of course
Qapla!
I would like it if they simply made a dropdown or special costume slot called "Infiltration" with as unlimited options as they could get, basically an "Alien Plus" for all species with more costume options, cross faction options, all species specific costumes, etc. It would save on frustration over character respecs when a new species gets added. And it would spur creativity to have that in the Foundry.
Or maybe make it "everything but official KDF and Starfleet uniforms and items that clip", including some extra exotic alien head options. Maybe have it work so that wearing your "infiltration" costume blocks out access to faction-locked vendors, gets rid of the "vendor tax" on commodity brokers, and causes some different mission dialogue behaviors.
I like this idea quite a lot. Might need a bit of tweaking, but the basic idea is very appealing.
Your logic is faulty on two counts. Here's why:
This statement is true. However, it is a fallacy to claim that simply because STO features some elements drawn from 'soft canon' sources, this means that OTHER or ALL soft canon sources are valid canonical sources for STO. Only those soft-canon elements directly featured in Star Trek Online by the devs can be considered canonical for the purposes of STO.
Put simply, STO does draw upon a limited number of soft canon elements - to give an example it clearly had a President Nanietta Bacco at one point. This doesn't mean that other or all soft canon sources - even those relating to Nanietta Bacco - are canonical for STO. If they were, where is the Typhon Pact, what happened to the suicide of Sela which took place several years before STO is set, etc? Clearly, even though these sources feature Bacco, they are mutually contradictory and therefore not fully canonical to STO.
The use of such material does not elevate other soft canon sources to STO canon. All that is canonical here, is that STO had a Federation President called Nanietta Bacco at one point. Nothing more.
To support your argument you say that some 'soft canon' sources feature Orions of differing skin colours. The 'soft canon' sources you cite are the long-defunct FASA roleplaying game and the Animated Series. AFAIK STO does not currently feature any material from the FASA RPG or TAS. Therefore there is no evidence which supports their being in any way canon in relation to STO at present.
However, even if they were considered canon for STO, it still doesn't make ANY difference to the proposal to correct Orion skin colour palette options. Here's why:
The argument is not to restrict Orions to green skin only (though it may have been phrased by others as such at times), simply to remove the non-canonical 'white' skin option.
With respect to TAS - I have already cited the colouring errors which took place and that the colouring of several male Orions as blue was 'unintentional' due to a technical issue. However, even if we accept the existence of blue (male) Orions - how does this support having a 'white' option available (when this was not featured in TAS) and no blue option (which was)?
As for the FASA RPG - I understand it lists the Orion skin colours as 'ruddy', 'green' and 'grey'. Aside from the default green, none of these colour options are currently in the game. If FASA was regarded as a canonical source they presumably would be.
So even if we accept your arguments about the canoncity of other books/games - none of these support white Orions.
It's a little fishy for a fleet to collectively want something. It suggests that you perhaps decided your position in advance as part of a game to out "perverts" and not for the stated reasons.
And this is what makes your group frustrating. If you're going to have anonymity on the internet, it needs to come with ZERO insincerity, zero disingenuousness, zero ulterior motives, zero disgust for fellow humans for being nerds or autistic (come on, you guys routinely use very ugly autism slurs publicly) or easily riled.
It makes you seem like a worthless, evil human being.
Caitians were first introduced in TAS, via the character of M'Ress.
They may have first featured in TAS, but were subsequently featured in ST4: The Voyage Home: so are not soft canon.
If you want your Orion to be green, make it green.
If you don't want your Orion to be green, don't make it green.
If you don't like the fact that someone does or doesn't have a green Orion, get over it, it's not your Orion to judge. Look away if it offense you so much.
Done.
As to the OP, it depends on which version of canon you take as current (hence the options presumably, and that's even before you get into the range of shades comparable human skin can have due to environmental/mixed heritage reasons). While you can't really count the TAS Orion shades (as mentioned before, it's been documented since that the guy in charge of the colouring was colour blind :P), it was stated in the original series pilot that green Orions were a subset of the Orion race and the other Orions shown just looked like white humans (in Pike's Talosian-induced rather dubious fantasy). Enterprise had them as green only when they appeared, and is arguably the most canon out of their screen appearances to date.
Seriously, if this was about diversity, you can still use alien-gen character, if you are true to the claim it's not about the skimpy outfits. That being said - I'm not saying restrict the colors of Orions, thus going too far, and defo have no interest in restricting options for anyone just because I dislike something, but I do think that people who skimp out their female characters for whatever odd fantasies are a low brow; and I make no denial of the fact that laughs and funny discussions always commence, whenever I see a "bleached" Orions. Just visiting Dyson BZ provides the "Barbie-squads" at large, and is a source of many facepalms. Just my opinion though. Duh.
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They made a point of putting emphasis on the word 'green' when describing Orion 'slave women', but so much so, that it strongly implies a couple of other things.
One is illustrated by the way we would use a color descriptive for a human in English (He is a white man, she is a black woman) and if you just add the necessity of galactic racial clarification, you get the perfectly logical relationship between a 'red Human Lakota man', and a 'green Orion slave woman. If you like to see this example as it fits a different universe, you have a Green Barsoomian woman, a White Barsoomian man, a Yellow Barsoomian woman, and a Black Barsoomian man, a 'red Barsoomian slave woman' not to mention a Barsoomian plant man just to give you more logical examples of what that choice of language carries with it in the form of subtle communication.
A second subtle suggestion is that the Orions did keep green slave women who at the time were not defined as specifically being racially Orion. This second seems less likely after Enterprise, but even Enterprise does not negate the previously noted verbal implications made by language usage.
Basically they were in the Rigel system which has so many inhabitable worlds it makes accurately tracking the racial types to be found there very difficult, especially since it was a galactic trading hub. Who really knows what 'race' the green slaves represent? A subject species lumped together under a common Orion political umbrella along with their masters?
In terrestrial terms we have 'Americans'. Do we need to break this down further? Do we realize how many kinds of 'Americans' there are? Which 'Americans' are canon, basing the question off of the first six episodes of the western TV show "Gunsmoke", for example. If we are only seeing a single slice of their whole culture most of the time, we would have the wrong impression from the get go.
Are there any other people who took Anthropology in college? If so, you know that initial examination of a culture has a high chance of establishing misconceptions about that culture if not handled carefully. You can also see how an extraterrestrial people might get the idea that all Humans are some shade of white, if they learned about us from our earliest TV broadcasts.
So what IS the big deal here?
Qapla.
So madame moderator, do you support the op and suggest that he is a good judge between the acceptable and the freakish? I ask because here's what he said about you:
hakimashou (Druk)
Jul 15, 2002
(Picture of Jan Darkrider here)
"they made this freakish person an sto forum mod"
http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3627820&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=363