What will you do then?? just let the iconians to wipe YOU from history? if the only way to survive is to wipe em out, knowing that they are an hostile xenophobe species do you really will sacrifice your species and a lot more to just not commit "genocide"? . As spock said, the needs of the many ....
I've already pointed out our many alternatives a few times, but you're ignoring that, so I'll just say..
Who says WE defeat the Iconians. if the writer here was actually competent they could come up with a dozen plausible ways the Iconians are defeated.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one.
It's a slippery slope, but if everything else has failed and will fail then the last resort is overwhelming force or sheer ingenuity. This weapon will end the war, save billions upon billions of lives, that otherwise would be lost to this war.
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one.
It's a slippery slope, but if everything else has failed and will fail then the last resort is overwhelming force or sheer ingenuity. This weapon will end the war, save billions upon billions of lives, that otherwise would be lost to this war.
Even though it has a very high chance of wiping out ourselves with the iconians? you need to reexamine how this thing WORKS because if you remove the Iconians you reshape the entire galaxy from 200,000 years ago.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one.
It's a slippery slope, but if everything else has failed and will fail then the last resort is overwhelming force or sheer ingenuity. This weapon will end the war, save billions upon billions of lives, that otherwise would be lost to this war.
And what if there are more Heralds than us, what if we are the few? Are you so comfortable with your turn of phrase when you are asked to make that sacrifice?
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one.
It's a slippery slope, but if everything else has failed and will fail then the last resort is overwhelming force or sheer ingenuity. This weapon will end the war, save billions upon billions of lives, that otherwise would be lost to this war.
And what if there are more Heralds than us, what if we are the few? Are you so comfortable with your turn of phrase when you are asked to make that sacrifice?
I am. Because unless you want to let the galaxy alone with the iconians and execute (because that is what you will be doing) every single species of the galaxy, well it is the right thing to do. And in extraordinary circunstances extraordinary measures are allowed. Because if not, every single specie that will born will be erradicated by the iconians.. and there will be no opportunity for any new species to raise.. is that what you want? lol.
Besides.. there are only 12 iconians.. wtf.. what are we even talking about.. lol.
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one.
It's a slippery slope, but if everything else has failed and will fail then the last resort is overwhelming force or sheer ingenuity. This weapon will end the war, save billions upon billions of lives, that otherwise would be lost to this war.
And what if there are more Heralds than us, what if we are the few? Are you so comfortable with your turn of phrase when you are asked to make that sacrifice?
I am. Because unless you want to let the galaxy alone with the iconians and execute (because that is what you will be doing) every single species of the galaxy, well it is the right thing to do. And in extraordinary circunstances extraordinary measures are allowed. Because if not, every single specie that will born will be erradicated by the iconians.. and there will be no opportunity for any new species to raise.. is that what you want? lol.
If you believe that what you Will do is worth what the Iconians Might do, I think you lack the perspective to be allowed to use a weapon of this type. With all of the side effects of a weapon of this type you risk more than two hundred thousand years of mess ups. Even if you can swallow the act of genocide you are hoping that a grenade you are holding will kill your enemy, but propel your body into a soft mattress rather than tearing everything apart.
From a practical standpoint, Cryptic can't re-do every asset in the game in order to reflect the ongoing war.
Ah, but that's just it. They could have (in a clever way).
This is what I posted in another thread:
Heck, they just did a revamp of the entire galaxy map. Would it be so hard to copy/paste another, Level 60 only galaxy, into the game?
This Level 60 galaxy would open up after the events in 'Blood of the Ancients' and WOULD include burning worlds, destroyed Starbases, constant Iconian and Herald incursions (both in space and ground locations). Have it include all current Iconian War content (FEs, queues) PLUS Iconian Red Alerts, Deep Space Encounters AND live events, like Individual Iconians (M'Tara, T'ket, etc. - played by the Devs) showing up on ESD, New Romulus, damaged Qo'nos and other worlds and stations (Andoria, Vulcan, Bajor, Drozana, DS9, etc.) at completely random times (basically whenever a Dev or two felt evil - lol), laying waste to anyone, player or NPC there.
Make the Level 60 galaxy one big Battlezone that is automatically entered after completing 'Blood of the Ancients' and can't be left (you can't run away from THIS war). Your character stays there until the bitter end. (racking up Iconian Resistance points for everything they participate in)
THAT would give this conflict a true sense of real war, Iconian power, decimation, and desperation it truly needs.
I think this would give more weight behind using such a abhorrent, end-all weapon like the timeship. It would at least muddy the waters when it came down to making the decision to use it - because we would actually feel more like OUR existence was coming to an end and we MUST do something, no matter how desperate, because it really is US or THEM.
The way things feel right now (what war? feels more like a simple disagreement), it's pretty clear-cut that we should be trying any number of other avenues that have been blatantly ignored up to this point.
Here's the problem with this and it's something I've been thinking about for the longest time. There's a lot more to this than "Make the war 20% worse!" here. And it's not about creating new maps or Cryptic not doing X, Y, and Z.
There's a Trope called "Darkness Induced Audience Apathy". This is where something - a show, a book, whatever - keeps plunging into the GRIMDARK to the point where it's not fun anymore. This would be even worse when you apply this to an MMORPG such as Star Trek Online.
Let's make up a scenario that your idea went through. Let's jump back to April when the Iconian War began. Everything's okay so far. You're level 60, maybe you got your T6 Galaxy, whatever. You get your Herald Incursions, who even drop in on Borg and Tholian Incursions. With each update, you learn more and more planets getting conquered. How about we go one step further: whenever a planet is taken over or destroyed, you can't use that planet anymore - you can't go into Foundry missions and you can't replay missions connected to it.
Things are starting to get worse... but, wait! There's a bit of relief - the Summer Event is coming! That'll be a way to make it bearable. A time to get away from the event going on! And plus a ship! Oh, wait... Cryptic cancelled it. There's a war going on, so it wouldn't make sense. So it's another month and a half of plodding through the darkness. Okay, let's run off to ESD or Qo'nos or the Flotilla to get away from this... oh, wait, there's injured and races who are running away from these people. Even the Solanae and Jenolan Dyson Sphere has these people in it.
Now, imagine this going on for five to six months. Every day. This isn't HALO or Mass Effect where you can just turn off your game with a save point because it has a set story to it. It's constantly changing. Constantly evolving. That's what an MMO is. And if you apply what you want to a game like this, people will get sick of the dark and walk off because it wouldn't be FUN.
Now, this may be fun for you and a few others here, but if I had to come here and see this all the time, I'd be sick of it.
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one.
It's a slippery slope, but if everything else has failed and will fail then the last resort is overwhelming force or sheer ingenuity. This weapon will end the war, save billions upon billions of lives, that otherwise would be lost to this war.
And what if there are more Heralds than us, what if we are the few? Are you so comfortable with your turn of phrase when you are asked to make that sacrifice?
I am. Because unless you want to let the galaxy alone with the iconians and execute (because that is what you will be doing) every single species of the galaxy, well it is the right thing to do. And in extraordinary circunstances extraordinary measures are allowed. Because if not, every single specie that will born will be erradicated by the iconians.. and there will be no opportunity for any new species to raise.. is that what you want? lol.
If you believe that what you Will do is worth what the Iconians Might do, I think you lack the perspective to be allowed to use a weapon of this type. With all of the side effects of a weapon of this type you risk more than two hundred thousand years of mess ups. Even if you can swallow the act of genocide you are hoping that a grenade you are holding will kill your enemy, but propel your body into a soft mattress rather than tearing everything apart.
Side effects?? dude the whole purpose of the ship is to MINIMIZE the side effects, to the point that only and only the iconians and their history will be wiped. I mean, again if you are willing to condemn the whole galaxy just for not comitting genocide with a xenophobe species.. of course the best course of action is to preserve some inidividuals but since there are only 12 iconians left..
(sic)...but I had to come here and see this all the time, I'd be sick of it.
EXACTLY...and you'd be willing to end it any way you could to return to peace.
By walking away and telling Cryptic this was the worst idea ever! I'd rather have the game as is than want to deal with that.
Well, as I said in the other thread, there would be a disclaimer at the start of Blood of the Ancients so you could make the decision for that character to commit to the war or not. Either participate or not.
But whatever characters did participate...would be up to their necks in a dirty, nasty WAR.
diplomacy should always be our 1st option, and it must remain an option till the bitter end. have we even tried talking to them yet? apart from some dude in a pair his oggs, with worg grease down his front and a blade in his hand.
Diplomacy isn't an option, you can't talk terms to a species who believes you are not worth talking too, hell, until recently they didn't even consider us worth the time to actively hunt and kill us all.
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one.
It's a slippery slope, but if everything else has failed and will fail then the last resort is overwhelming force or sheer ingenuity. This weapon will end the war, save billions upon billions of lives, that otherwise would be lost to this war.
And what if there are more Heralds than us, what if we are the few? Are you so comfortable with your turn of phrase when you are asked to make that sacrifice?
I am. Because unless you want to let the galaxy alone with the iconians and execute (because that is what you will be doing) every single species of the galaxy, well it is the right thing to do. And in extraordinary circunstances extraordinary measures are allowed. Because if not, every single specie that will born will be erradicated by the iconians.. and there will be no opportunity for any new species to raise.. is that what you want? lol.
If you believe that what you Will do is worth what the Iconians Might do, I think you lack the perspective to be allowed to use a weapon of this type. With all of the side effects of a weapon of this type you risk more than two hundred thousand years of mess ups. Even if you can swallow the act of genocide you are hoping that a grenade you are holding will kill your enemy, but propel your body into a soft mattress rather than tearing everything apart.
Side effects?? dude the whole purpose of the ship is to MINIMIZE the side effects, to the point that only and only the iconians and their history will be wiped. I mean, again if you are willing to condemn the whole galaxy just for not comitting genocide with a xenophobe species.. of course the best course of action is to preserve some inidividuals but since there are only 12 iconians left..
And it will fail. The amount of stories involving time that could not have their name changed to "Unintended consequences" can be counted on ostrich toes.
Even just during the the time the player has been here, it changes the story. We don't get the Romulan Republic, or bring the delta races together, we don't know what the Undine will do, the KDF will go back to hating the Federation. Sure the people on the ship will know, and get exicuted for being soft on the enemy. It goes on and on, even if we ignore the changes it makes on other ancient civilizations. The Dewans, the Solanae, what if the voth end up in charge? This is so far beyond ripples in a pond.
Also what is to stop the Krenim from making sure that they end up as the ruling empire in the milky way?
The most simple choice is to not go with Sela through the gate. That at least gets time to ask the Preservers about the Iconians, before they are already angry....wait if we turn time back Sela might get to go back to being empress.....That cupcake!
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one.
It's a slippery slope, but if everything else has failed and will fail then the last resort is overwhelming force or sheer ingenuity. This weapon will end the war, save billions upon billions of lives, that otherwise would be lost to this war.
And what if there are more Heralds than us, what if we are the few? Are you so comfortable with your turn of phrase when you are asked to make that sacrifice?
I am. Because unless you want to let the galaxy alone with the iconians and execute (because that is what you will be doing) every single species of the galaxy, well it is the right thing to do. And in extraordinary circunstances extraordinary measures are allowed. Because if not, every single specie that will born will be erradicated by the iconians.. and there will be no opportunity for any new species to raise.. is that what you want? lol.
If you believe that what you Will do is worth what the Iconians Might do, I think you lack the perspective to be allowed to use a weapon of this type. With all of the side effects of a weapon of this type you risk more than two hundred thousand years of mess ups. Even if you can swallow the act of genocide you are hoping that a grenade you are holding will kill your enemy, but propel your body into a soft mattress rather than tearing everything apart.
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one.
It's a slippery slope, but if everything else has failed and will fail then the last resort is overwhelming force or sheer ingenuity. This weapon will end the war, save billions upon billions of lives, that otherwise would be lost to this war.
And what if there are more Heralds than us, what if we are the few? Are you so comfortable with your turn of phrase when you are asked to make that sacrifice?
I am. Because unless you want to let the galaxy alone with the iconians and execute (because that is what you will be doing) every single species of the galaxy, well it is the right thing to do. And in extraordinary circunstances extraordinary measures are allowed. Because if not, every single specie that will born will be erradicated by the iconians.. and there will be no opportunity for any new species to raise.. is that what you want? lol.
If you believe that what you Will do is worth what the Iconians Might do, I think you lack the perspective to be allowed to use a weapon of this type. With all of the side effects of a weapon of this type you risk more than two hundred thousand years of mess ups. Even if you can swallow the act of genocide you are hoping that a grenade you are holding will kill your enemy, but propel your body into a soft mattress rather than tearing everything apart.
Side effects?? dude the whole purpose of the ship is to MINIMIZE the side effects, to the point that only and only the iconians and their history will be wiped. I mean, again if you are willing to condemn the whole galaxy just for not comitting genocide with a xenophobe species.. of course the best course of action is to preserve some inidividuals but since there are only 12 iconians left..
Year of Hell showed us exactly why this weapon is a bad idea, we cannot predict every single outcome of a single change to history 2 hours ago thanks to chaos theory, 200,000 years of changes could result in a very different universe.
Hell, the mirror universe itself could be caused by the fact that someone used this weapon to take out the iconians, and that would be viewed as a best case scenario, worst case, the various humanoid races of the milky way are still banging rocks together to make fire, if we exist at all.
You know what we're going to end up doing? We're going to put the Krenim back in power and they become the evil guys and we'll end up siding with the Iconians because of them being the evil guys who have been waiting in the wings.
The only ones who know about us meddling with the timeline are going to be the guys in the ship. However, we realize that if we fix the timeline back to erase the Krenim, we lose because the Iconians still become the way they do. Why? Because of the loss of the Other. The Other are the sole reason for this stupid TRIBBLE to be happening.
So what do we need to do? We need to save the Other from extinction. That's going to be the game plan and how we save the Galaxy. Though, then we need to fix our TRIBBLE up with the Krenim and then the Iconians are still going to be there, we have to fight them with the Other to complete STO.
Honestly theres so much wrong with this storyline that its hard to even look at this and be upset. I only recently got to play through the Mission before the latest one thanks to bugs. And I had to shake my head at the cookie cutter mustachioed bad guy Iconians. The fact that the Krenim were so quick to hand over their tech to what amounted to complete strangers with little to no diplomacy. They were basically begging us to take it. Or the fact that Captain Kagran sends essentially the remnants of the Alliances Armada on a Suicide Mission because he was still convinced, this far into the fight, that conventional space combat would work against the Iconians superior numbers and technology....And some how the guy still has a job after the retreat. The guy would be removed from Command in any real world Military. There was no reasonable explanation for why we would launch what was our final line of defense to do this....Nog had just got done saying the TimeShip was still weeks from completion. It wasnt even a 'Oh man these guys are making a mistake' moment. It was a 'Why!?!WHY!?!' moment. They were too lazy to even tell us why....Just hamfist the 'we're desperate for this genocide' into the next mission so they can wrap up the Iconian arc and move on to whatever else they want to do.
This whole storyline has been some of the worst storytelling theyve done. So Im not shocked that they want to us to commit genocide. Although I get the feeling the circle of Iconians we see in the mission before this last one is all thats left of the Iconians after the war 200,000 years ago.
Yeah this storyline's writing is some of the worst STO has seen since Divide et Impera. Kestrel dropped the ball so hard here.
♪ I'm going around not in circles but in spirographs.
It's pretty much this hard to keep just one timeline intact. ♪
Honestly theres so much wrong with this storyline that its hard to even look at this and be upset. I only recently got to play through the Mission before the latest one thanks to bugs. And I had to shake my head at the cookie cutter mustachioed bad guy Iconians. The fact that the Krenim were so quick to hand over their tech to what amounted to complete strangers with little to no diplomacy. They were basically begging us to take it. Or the fact that Captain Kagran sends essentially the remnants of the Alliances Armada on a Suicide Mission because he was still convinced, this far into the fight, that conventional space combat would work against the Iconians superior numbers and technology....And some how the guy still has a job after the retreat.
He wasn't convinced that this was a good way to win the war or anything. It was just an assault they needed to launch because the timeship took too long.
Unfortunately, it'S never really established why this was the case.
But if I had to guess/make something up - the Heralds are moving in on multiple spots and will overwhelm the local defenses. But if we attack at a neuralgic point - like the Herald Sphere and the Herald/Iconian flagship - we force the Heralds to get back there and take care of the threat. If we deal enough damage, they will need some time to repair it and launch another assault.
Ideally, in a war you chose the battles you fight and pick only the ones you can win. But since both sides are trying that, sometimes you know you'll fight battles you are going to lose. Your only hope is to delay the enemies war plans or have him lose more than he expected.
This, I think, was the purpose of the attack on the Herald Sphere. Delay the enemy so the Alliance can build its timeship. And once they build that timeship - there is nothing to say that the disastrous losses will occur again. You could jump back in time and avoid the whole attack on the Herald SPhere taking place.
So far it has not been established how exactly we intend to use the weapon. There is no saying it will be an actual genocide. Yes, it's a weapon that could be used for it, but the NPCs in Broken Circle mention that they are still running simulations to find the right manipulation. If they wanted to commit genocide against the Iconians, I think that would be a lot easier. But it will also probably completely alter the universe. It's not a feasible option.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
What do you suggest as a solution to the Iconian problem, then? Reasoning with them? Continuing to throw ship after ship at them, with increasing loss of life on both sides? Surrendering to their overlordship? This is war, and they chose it, because they believe they have a right and duty to rule the galaxy. They regard us as insects, and have sufficient hubris to imagine that they are gods. They're still trying to fight a war they already lost, 200,000 years ago, with all the baggage left over from their previous defeat, which they are now projecting onto us. Reasoning with such persons is unlikely to produce the desired result. Devastating a third of our resources and personnel doesn't seem like a very good solution, either. Surrender is not an option. It is indeed us or them, not because we lust for ancient blood, but because they cannot bring themselves to accept that the galaxy has changed and to adapt accordingly.
The point is that it's not even being discussed.
♪ I'm going around not in circles but in spirographs.
It's pretty much this hard to keep just one timeline intact. ♪
And once they build that timeship - there is nothing to say that the disastrous losses will occur again. You could jump back in time and avoid the whole attack on the Herald SPhere taking place.
The timeship does not travel in time. What it does is REMOVES things making them NEVER HAVE EXISTED.
This is NOT the time travel tactics of section 31. This is countering an apocalypse with a bigger one.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
And once they build that timeship - there is nothing to say that the disastrous losses will occur again. You could jump back in time and avoid the whole attack on the Herald SPhere taking place.
The timeship does not travel in time. What it does is REMOVES things making them NEVER HAVE EXISTED.
This is NOT the time travel tactics of section 31. This is countering an apocalypse with a bigger one.
Basically.
♪ I'm going around not in circles but in spirographs.
It's pretty much this hard to keep just one timeline intact. ♪
And once they build that timeship - there is nothing to say that the disastrous losses will occur again. You could jump back in time and avoid the whole attack on the Herald SPhere taking place.
The timeship does not travel in time. What it does is REMOVES things making them NEVER HAVE EXISTED.
This is NOT the time travel tactics of section 31. This is countering an apocalypse with a bigger one.
Basically.
Section 31 use a scalpel when messing with history, this is the equivalent of an Undine Planet Destroyer.
Besides.. there are only 12 iconians.. wtf.. what are we even talking about.. lol.
Because the silencing of even one voice makes the chorus lesser for it.
Ummm, considering that these "good folks" had no problem killing their equivalent of a "parent species" (the Preservers) without blinking an eye, nor were they above manipulating the entire Milky Way and generally displaying genocidal tendency's -- you'll forgive me if I won't miss their voice in the "chorus" .
It won't be genocide of the Iconians... It'll go wrong.. I can feel it.
Heh ... , I for one expect trechary from within our own ranks ... , as both the Romulans and the Krenim (among others) have reasons to think to manipulate time in their favor .
But it would not surprise me if an Iconian ends up being the next Borg Queen either .
What if we find ourselves on the verge of committing genocide only to realize how important the Iconians are in the timeline, or how they were the victims originally, and we 'wisk' them away from Iconia 200,000 years ago in an effort to maintain the timeline?
To date, we have yet to kill off any of our adversaries (even though we have killed far too many). The Tholians, the Borg, the Voth and so forth have continued to exist. We were never pressed to kill them off even though the Borg has at times proved to be just as much of a threat to us as the Iconians.
Its possible that we return to this point in time and reveal ourselves to be their saviors and that in itself starts a peaceful exchange between the Iconians and the Alliance. While the Iconians always speak of the Others as if they know who they are, the question is why would they not use the Others actual names? Because in reality the Iconians dont know who the Others really are. Everyone we've spoken too in regards to the Others can never directly tell us who the Others are. Even when the Iconians think they are alone and speaking of the Others they cant say out right who they are.
This leads me to think that the shocker, the big surprise to who the Others are, is US. What better way to end the story arc?
Honestly theres so much wrong with this storyline that its hard to even look at this and be upset. I only recently got to play through the Mission before the latest one thanks to bugs. And I had to shake my head at the cookie cutter mustachioed bad guy Iconians. The fact that the Krenim were so quick to hand over their tech to what amounted to complete strangers with little to no diplomacy. They were basically begging us to take it. Or the fact that Captain Kagran sends essentially the remnants of the Alliances Armada on a Suicide Mission because he was still convinced, this far into the fight, that conventional space combat would work against the Iconians superior numbers and technology....And some how the guy still has a job after the retreat.
He wasn't convinced that this was a good way to win the war or anything. It was just an assault they needed to launch because the timeship took too long.
Unfortunately, it'S never really established why this was the case.
But if I had to guess/make something up - the Heralds are moving in on multiple spots and will overwhelm the local defenses. But if we attack at a neuralgic point - like the Herald Sphere and the Herald/Iconian flagship - we force the Heralds to get back there and take care of the threat. If we deal enough damage, they will need some time to repair it and launch another assault.
Ideally, in a war you chose the battles you fight and pick only the ones you can win. But since both sides are trying that, sometimes you know you'll fight battles you are going to lose. Your only hope is to delay the enemies war plans or have him lose more than he expected.
This, I think, was the purpose of the attack on the Herald Sphere. Delay the enemy so the Alliance can build its timeship. And once they build that timeship - there is nothing to say that the disastrous losses will occur again. You could jump back in time and avoid the whole attack on the Herald SPhere taking place.
So far it has not been established how exactly we intend to use the weapon. There is no saying it will be an actual genocide. Yes, it's a weapon that could be used for it, but the NPCs in Broken Circle mention that they are still running simulations to find the right manipulation. If they wanted to commit genocide against the Iconians, I think that would be a lot easier. But it will also probably completely alter the universe. It's not a feasible option.
There is no strategic reason to toss what is left of your forces en mass against a superior foe when youre weeks away from a weapon that can effectively end the war. You do everything you can to prolong the advance.
By throwing so many at the Iconians now the Alliance is forced to use the Timeship before its ready and thats what Cryptic wanted. And thats why they didnt bother explaining to us why we needed to take part in a suicide mission.
There's litterally STILL the preserver pods on the other planets that's NOT Lanas .... why the FRELL has nobody gone and tried to wake those baldies up yet?
We don't happen to know they are there.
I mean we had to spend some time looking for the ones we found, so I don't think the player has a real good idea of where the other fridges full of preservers are.
little cave.. last place we visited putting the map together during the breen arc.. preserver pods.
There's litterally STILL the preserver pods on the other planets that's NOT Lanas .... why the FRELL has nobody gone and tried to wake those baldies up yet?
We don't happen to know they are there.
I mean we had to spend some time looking for the ones we found, so I don't think the player has a real good idea of where the other fridges full of preservers are.
little cave.. last place we visited putting the map together during the breen arc.. preserver pods.
Must have missed that. I only remember the ones near the Preserver library, and those are kinda vaporized. I guess so long as there are other pods we should probably go wake one up, instead of using this time eraser.
There's litterally STILL the preserver pods on the other planets that's NOT Lanas .... why the FRELL has nobody gone and tried to wake those baldies up yet?
We don't happen to know they are there.
I mean we had to spend some time looking for the ones we found, so I don't think the player has a real good idea of where the other fridges full of preservers are.
little cave.. last place we visited putting the map together during the breen arc.. preserver pods.
Thats the same little cave that M'Tara laid waste too in the opening battle with the Iconians. That library is gone. The other libraries are in unknown locations.
There's litterally STILL the preserver pods on the other planets that's NOT Lanas .... why the FRELL has nobody gone and tried to wake those baldies up yet?
We don't happen to know they are there.
I mean we had to spend some time looking for the ones we found, so I don't think the player has a real good idea of where the other fridges full of preservers are.
little cave.. last place we visited putting the map together during the breen arc.. preserver pods.
Thats the same little cave that M'Tara laid waste too in the opening battle with the Iconians. That library is gone. The other libraries are in unknown locations.
i think he's talking about the cave BEFORE that one, on raveh; the ice cave
i don't remember any preserver pods there, however
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Comments
I've already pointed out our many alternatives a few times, but you're ignoring that, so I'll just say..
Who says WE defeat the Iconians. if the writer here was actually competent they could come up with a dozen plausible ways the Iconians are defeated.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
It's a slippery slope, but if everything else has failed and will fail then the last resort is overwhelming force or sheer ingenuity. This weapon will end the war, save billions upon billions of lives, that otherwise would be lost to this war.
Even though it has a very high chance of wiping out ourselves with the iconians? you need to reexamine how this thing WORKS because if you remove the Iconians you reshape the entire galaxy from 200,000 years ago.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
I am. Because unless you want to let the galaxy alone with the iconians and execute (because that is what you will be doing) every single species of the galaxy, well it is the right thing to do. And in extraordinary circunstances extraordinary measures are allowed. Because if not, every single specie that will born will be erradicated by the iconians.. and there will be no opportunity for any new species to raise.. is that what you want? lol.
Besides.. there are only 12 iconians.. wtf.. what are we even talking about.. lol.
If you believe that what you Will do is worth what the Iconians Might do, I think you lack the perspective to be allowed to use a weapon of this type. With all of the side effects of a weapon of this type you risk more than two hundred thousand years of mess ups. Even if you can swallow the act of genocide you are hoping that a grenade you are holding will kill your enemy, but propel your body into a soft mattress rather than tearing everything apart.
Here's the problem with this and it's something I've been thinking about for the longest time. There's a lot more to this than "Make the war 20% worse!" here. And it's not about creating new maps or Cryptic not doing X, Y, and Z.
There's a Trope called "Darkness Induced Audience Apathy". This is where something - a show, a book, whatever - keeps plunging into the GRIMDARK to the point where it's not fun anymore. This would be even worse when you apply this to an MMORPG such as Star Trek Online.
Let's make up a scenario that your idea went through. Let's jump back to April when the Iconian War began. Everything's okay so far. You're level 60, maybe you got your T6 Galaxy, whatever. You get your Herald Incursions, who even drop in on Borg and Tholian Incursions. With each update, you learn more and more planets getting conquered. How about we go one step further: whenever a planet is taken over or destroyed, you can't use that planet anymore - you can't go into Foundry missions and you can't replay missions connected to it.
Things are starting to get worse... but, wait! There's a bit of relief - the Summer Event is coming! That'll be a way to make it bearable. A time to get away from the event going on! And plus a ship! Oh, wait... Cryptic cancelled it. There's a war going on, so it wouldn't make sense. So it's another month and a half of plodding through the darkness. Okay, let's run off to ESD or Qo'nos or the Flotilla to get away from this... oh, wait, there's injured and races who are running away from these people. Even the Solanae and Jenolan Dyson Sphere has these people in it.
Now, imagine this going on for five to six months. Every day. This isn't HALO or Mass Effect where you can just turn off your game with a save point because it has a set story to it. It's constantly changing. Constantly evolving. That's what an MMO is. And if you apply what you want to a game like this, people will get sick of the dark and walk off because it wouldn't be FUN.
Now, this may be fun for you and a few others here, but if I had to come here and see this all the time, I'd be sick of it.
Because the silencing of even one voice makes the chorus lesser for it.
arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline/#/discussion/1203368/pve-content-a-list-of-gamewide-polishing-pass-suggestions
Side effects?? dude the whole purpose of the ship is to MINIMIZE the side effects, to the point that only and only the iconians and their history will be wiped. I mean, again if you are willing to condemn the whole galaxy just for not comitting genocide with a xenophobe species.. of course the best course of action is to preserve some inidividuals but since there are only 12 iconians left..
EXACTLY...and you'd be willing to end it any way you could to return to peace.
arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline/#/discussion/1203368/pve-content-a-list-of-gamewide-polishing-pass-suggestions
By walking away and telling Cryptic this was the worst idea ever! I'd rather have the game as is than want to deal with that.
Well, as I said in the other thread, there would be a disclaimer at the start of Blood of the Ancients so you could make the decision for that character to commit to the war or not. Either participate or not.
But whatever characters did participate...would be up to their necks in a dirty, nasty WAR.
arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline/#/discussion/1203368/pve-content-a-list-of-gamewide-polishing-pass-suggestions
Diplomacy isn't an option, you can't talk terms to a species who believes you are not worth talking too, hell, until recently they didn't even consider us worth the time to actively hunt and kill us all.
And it will fail. The amount of stories involving time that could not have their name changed to "Unintended consequences" can be counted on ostrich toes.
Even just during the the time the player has been here, it changes the story. We don't get the Romulan Republic, or bring the delta races together, we don't know what the Undine will do, the KDF will go back to hating the Federation. Sure the people on the ship will know, and get exicuted for being soft on the enemy. It goes on and on, even if we ignore the changes it makes on other ancient civilizations. The Dewans, the Solanae, what if the voth end up in charge? This is so far beyond ripples in a pond.
Also what is to stop the Krenim from making sure that they end up as the ruling empire in the milky way?
The most simple choice is to not go with Sela through the gate. That at least gets time to ask the Preservers about the Iconians, before they are already angry....wait if we turn time back Sela might get to go back to being empress.....That cupcake!
Year of Hell showed us exactly why this weapon is a bad idea, we cannot predict every single outcome of a single change to history 2 hours ago thanks to chaos theory, 200,000 years of changes could result in a very different universe.
Hell, the mirror universe itself could be caused by the fact that someone used this weapon to take out the iconians, and that would be viewed as a best case scenario, worst case, the various humanoid races of the milky way are still banging rocks together to make fire, if we exist at all.
The only ones who know about us meddling with the timeline are going to be the guys in the ship. However, we realize that if we fix the timeline back to erase the Krenim, we lose because the Iconians still become the way they do. Why? Because of the loss of the Other. The Other are the sole reason for this stupid TRIBBLE to be happening.
So what do we need to do? We need to save the Other from extinction. That's going to be the game plan and how we save the Galaxy. Though, then we need to fix our TRIBBLE up with the Krenim and then the Iconians are still going to be there, we have to fight them with the Other to complete STO.
Yeah this storyline's writing is some of the worst STO has seen since Divide et Impera. Kestrel dropped the ball so hard here.
It's pretty much this hard to keep just one timeline intact. ♪
He wasn't convinced that this was a good way to win the war or anything. It was just an assault they needed to launch because the timeship took too long.
Unfortunately, it'S never really established why this was the case.
But if I had to guess/make something up - the Heralds are moving in on multiple spots and will overwhelm the local defenses. But if we attack at a neuralgic point - like the Herald Sphere and the Herald/Iconian flagship - we force the Heralds to get back there and take care of the threat. If we deal enough damage, they will need some time to repair it and launch another assault.
Ideally, in a war you chose the battles you fight and pick only the ones you can win. But since both sides are trying that, sometimes you know you'll fight battles you are going to lose. Your only hope is to delay the enemies war plans or have him lose more than he expected.
This, I think, was the purpose of the attack on the Herald Sphere. Delay the enemy so the Alliance can build its timeship. And once they build that timeship - there is nothing to say that the disastrous losses will occur again. You could jump back in time and avoid the whole attack on the Herald SPhere taking place.
So far it has not been established how exactly we intend to use the weapon. There is no saying it will be an actual genocide. Yes, it's a weapon that could be used for it, but the NPCs in Broken Circle mention that they are still running simulations to find the right manipulation. If they wanted to commit genocide against the Iconians, I think that would be a lot easier. But it will also probably completely alter the universe. It's not a feasible option.
The point is that it's not even being discussed.
It's pretty much this hard to keep just one timeline intact. ♪
The timeship does not travel in time. What it does is REMOVES things making them NEVER HAVE EXISTED.
This is NOT the time travel tactics of section 31. This is countering an apocalypse with a bigger one.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
Basically.
It's pretty much this hard to keep just one timeline intact. ♪
Section 31 use a scalpel when messing with history, this is the equivalent of an Undine Planet Destroyer.
Ummm, considering that these "good folks" had no problem killing their equivalent of a "parent species" (the Preservers) without blinking an eye, nor were they above manipulating the entire Milky Way and generally displaying genocidal tendency's -- you'll forgive me if I won't miss their voice in the "chorus" .
Heh ... , I for one expect trechary from within our own ranks ... , as both the Romulans and the Krenim (among others) have reasons to think to manipulate time in their favor .
But it would not surprise me if an Iconian ends up being the next Borg Queen either .
What if we find ourselves on the verge of committing genocide only to realize how important the Iconians are in the timeline, or how they were the victims originally, and we 'wisk' them away from Iconia 200,000 years ago in an effort to maintain the timeline?
To date, we have yet to kill off any of our adversaries (even though we have killed far too many). The Tholians, the Borg, the Voth and so forth have continued to exist. We were never pressed to kill them off even though the Borg has at times proved to be just as much of a threat to us as the Iconians.
Its possible that we return to this point in time and reveal ourselves to be their saviors and that in itself starts a peaceful exchange between the Iconians and the Alliance. While the Iconians always speak of the Others as if they know who they are, the question is why would they not use the Others actual names? Because in reality the Iconians dont know who the Others really are. Everyone we've spoken too in regards to the Others can never directly tell us who the Others are. Even when the Iconians think they are alone and speaking of the Others they cant say out right who they are.
This leads me to think that the shocker, the big surprise to who the Others are, is US. What better way to end the story arc?
There is no strategic reason to toss what is left of your forces en mass against a superior foe when youre weeks away from a weapon that can effectively end the war. You do everything you can to prolong the advance.
By throwing so many at the Iconians now the Alliance is forced to use the Timeship before its ready and thats what Cryptic wanted. And thats why they didnt bother explaining to us why we needed to take part in a suicide mission.
Must have missed that. I only remember the ones near the Preserver library, and those are kinda vaporized. I guess so long as there are other pods we should probably go wake one up, instead of using this time eraser.
Thats the same little cave that M'Tara laid waste too in the opening battle with the Iconians. That library is gone. The other libraries are in unknown locations.
i think he's talking about the cave BEFORE that one, on raveh; the ice cave
i don't remember any preserver pods there, however
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"