: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group
It has nothing to do with how many are left.
thanks gradii, was going to post that definition too. i'm really surprised there are some who don't understand the concept.. what we are contemplating is the deliberate destruction of not just of a single species, but of every species that has been dependant on them, not to mention every direct and indirect action or process they have been a part of.. good and bad. as it stand we only see the bad, but we know next to nothing about them or their actions over the past 200,000 years. aside from speculation and stories, what we can call facts.. from personal experience.. verified reports.. bits and pieces from historical finds.. is an infinitesimal part of that 200,000 years and only accounts for the milky way. what kind of effect would this action if taken have in the andromeda galaxy? we could be condemning an entire galaxy to death and all of its sentient life, and we still don't even know what this is all about.
Honestly theres so much wrong with this storyline that its hard to even look at this and be upset. I only recently got to play through the Mission before the latest one thanks to bugs. And I had to shake my head at the cookie cutter mustachioed bad guy Iconians. The fact that the Krenim were so quick to hand over their tech to what amounted to complete strangers with little to no diplomacy. They were basically begging us to take it. Or the fact that Captain Kagran sends essentially the remnants of the Alliances Armada on a Suicide Mission because he was still convinced, this far into the fight, that conventional space combat would work against the Iconians superior numbers and technology....And some how the guy still has a job after the retreat.
He wasn't convinced that this was a good way to win the war or anything. It was just an assault they needed to launch because the timeship took too long.
Unfortunately, it'S never really established why this was the case.
But if I had to guess/make something up - the Heralds are moving in on multiple spots and will overwhelm the local defenses. But if we attack at a neuralgic point - like the Herald Sphere and the Herald/Iconian flagship - we force the Heralds to get back there and take care of the threat. If we deal enough damage, they will need some time to repair it and launch another assault.
Ideally, in a war you chose the battles you fight and pick only the ones you can win. But since both sides are trying that, sometimes you know you'll fight battles you are going to lose. Your only hope is to delay the enemies war plans or have him lose more than he expected.
This, I think, was the purpose of the attack on the Herald Sphere. Delay the enemy so the Alliance can build its timeship. And once they build that timeship - there is nothing to say that the disastrous losses will occur again. You could jump back in time and avoid the whole attack on the Herald SPhere taking place.
So far it has not been established how exactly we intend to use the weapon. There is no saying it will be an actual genocide. Yes, it's a weapon that could be used for it, but the NPCs in Broken Circle mention that they are still running simulations to find the right manipulation. If they wanted to commit genocide against the Iconians, I think that would be a lot easier. But it will also probably completely alter the universe. It's not a feasible option.
There is no strategic reason to toss what is left of your forces en mass against a superior foe when youre weeks away from a weapon that can effectively end the war. You do everything you can to prolong the advance.
By throwing so many at the Iconians now the Alliance is forced to use the Timeship before its ready and thats what Cryptic wanted. And thats why they didnt bother explaining to us why we needed to take part in a suicide mission.
The Iconian Gateway technology is pretty much unexplained in its limitations and abilities so far, so we can only guess...
But an all assault on the Iconian Gateway Network by targeting the Herald Sphere might be exactly how "prolonging the advance" could look like in a war against the Iconians.
As long as the Iconians are busy safeguarding their Herald Sphere, their flagship or busy repairing damaged parts of their gateway network, they are sending out less ships that could stumble upon the Timeship facility.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
diplomacy should always be our 1st option, and it must remain an option till the bitter end. have we even tried talking to them yet? apart from some dude in a pair his oggs, with worg grease down his front and a blade in his hand.
Diplomacy isn't an option, you can't talk terms to a species who believes you are not worth talking too, hell, until recently they didn't even consider us worth the time to actively hunt and kill us all.
really, and has anyone tried? how about approaching them on their terms, showing some deference and respect, regardless of what is going on, they are an ancient species, there biggest beef with us seems to be a lack of respect. but no.. rather than tipping the hat, taking a knee and showing respect, that would maybe at least open up a dialogue, our answer is.. death kill maime destroy them.
"the needs of the many out way the needs of the few, or the one.."
well, i think risking personal instant obliteration, by taking a knee and showing proper deference, and trying to open up a dialogue to save everything, is worth the chance.. would that not be a proper use of that philosophy?
Two words. Thalaron Pulse. The universe we play in never was one to remember the rules. I'm sure more will be broken as time goes on. Still every chance for the Son'a and their subspace weapons.
really, and has anyone tried? how about approaching them on their terms, showing some deference and respect, regardless of what is going on, they are an ancient species, there biggest beef with us seems to be a lack of respect. but no.. rather than tipping the hat, taking a knee and showing respect, that would maybe at least open up a dialogue, our answer is.. death kill maime destroy them.
feel free to try that if you want, but few of my characters would drop to their knees for anyone outside the bedroom, let alone anyone that arrogant and megalomaniacal that they try to pass themselves off as gods
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
There's litterally STILL the preserver pods on the other planets that's NOT Lanas .... why the FRELL has nobody gone and tried to wake those baldies up yet?
We don't happen to know they are there.
I mean we had to spend some time looking for the ones we found, so I don't think the player has a real good idea of where the other fridges full of preservers are.
little cave.. last place we visited putting the map together during the breen arc.. preserver pods.
Must have missed that. I only remember the ones near the Preserver library, and those are kinda vaporized. I guess so long as there are other pods we should probably go wake one up, instead of using this time eraser.
wholeheartedly agree., we only need 1 preserver and a console.. which exists there too, and we are golden.. my preserver can't even remember his name, a virus caused an almost total amnesia.. works well as a science officer though, things may come back to him over time, if we actually exist at all.
There's litterally STILL the preserver pods on the other planets that's NOT Lanas .... why the FRELL has nobody gone and tried to wake those baldies up yet?
We don't happen to know they are there.
I mean we had to spend some time looking for the ones we found, so I don't think the player has a real good idea of where the other fridges full of preservers are.
little cave.. last place we visited putting the map together during the breen arc.. preserver pods.
Must have missed that. I only remember the ones near the Preserver library, and those are kinda vaporized. I guess so long as there are other pods we should probably go wake one up, instead of using this time eraser.
wholeheartedly agree., we only need 1 preserver and a console.. which exists there too, and we are golden.. my preserver can't even remember his name, a virus caused an almost total amnesia.. works well as a science officer though, things may come back to him over time, if we actually exist at all.
Someday I really wish we could edit the "Alien" tag in our character bio. No preservers on my ship, just me and my Caracal T'Kat.
I hope the rumor is true and I can get my clothes back from ancient iconia.
The preserver idea seems like the best option, but we have this time McGuffin dropped by Sela, that leads us to the Krenim, and all the issues we may be forced to do by the railroad of the story.
diplomacy should always be our 1st option, and it must remain an option till the bitter end. have we even tried talking to them yet? apart from some dude in a pair his oggs, with worg grease down his front and a blade in his hand.
Diplomacy isn't an option, you can't talk terms to a species who believes you are not worth talking too, hell, until recently they didn't even consider us worth the time to actively hunt and kill us all.
really, and has anyone tried? how about approaching them on their terms, showing some deference and respect, regardless of what is going on, they are an ancient species, there biggest beef with us seems to be a lack of respect. but no.. rather than tipping the hat, taking a knee and showing respect, that would maybe at least open up a dialogue, our answer is.. death kill maime destroy them.
"the needs of the many out way the needs of the few, or the one.."
well, i think risking personal instant obliteration, by taking a knee and showing proper deference, and trying to open up a dialogue to save everything, is worth the chance.. would that not be a proper use of that philosophy?
Proper deference? Maybe you enjoy masochism, engaging in sycophancy, and being enslaved. I do not. "Live free or die" are words I take to heart. And if my death is necessary to avoid living unfree, then I will take as many of the aspiring "masters" into hell with me as I can.
All these other options people have been talking about have been tried and failed, if they were remotely rational proposals, except one (which I will point to momentarily). Diplomacy has not been tried, but it's also not a remotely rational proposal in this situation. The Iconians are hellbent on being the overlords of the galaxy. We just cast off the tyranny of the Star Empire and its accursed Tal'Shiar. We didn't do that in order to now submit to an ancient group of capricious ousted tyrants with god complexes.
The arrogant Fed-centric assumption that Romulans are "okay" with genocide is just as offensive as TNG's twisted view of what Romulans are, which turned the original presentation of Romulan culture in TOS on its head. And yes, genocide is what the proposed "solution" entails, whether there be twelve or trillions or even a single one.
Nor is an appeal to pseudo-Surakian utilitarianism a justification for it; utilitarianism, whether that of John Stuart Mill or that based on a misunderstanding of the teachings of Surak, is a form of consequentialist ethics, and a consequentialist ethic says "The end justifies the means." Such a perspective is not ethically praiseworthy. In context, Surak's teaching is not quite identical with this, but is instead a recognition that one or a few may have to willingly surrender their lives in order to secure the needs of many, and that is ethically praiseworthy. Do not continue to twist Surak's words in an effort to justify your position. His teachings have been too often distorted, and while I am by no means a Surakian, I object to the exploitation of out-of-context statements as a means of justifying anything which is ethically repugnant.
However, any attempt to condemn the plan based on a legalistic ethic (a legalistic ethic says that acts themselves are good or evil, without any regard to consequence, intention, or context) is equally unfounded. The great flaw of legalism is the reality of "Catch-22" situations, in which, no matter what course of action is chosen, one must violate the laws of his or her ethic. In this current situation, we have nearly exhausted our options, and the refusal to act so as to wipe out the Iconian threat once and for all means that we would necessarily be condemning untold numbers (certainly more than trillions) to suffering, slavery, and death at the hands of beings who have demonstrated no capacity for any type of ethic, but have instead given evidence of capricious natures.
The option to which I alluded above, the option which is rational and has not been attempted yet, is this:
Incidentally, I will pass along a proposed solution for the whole Iconian problem. It's not a very Starfleet sort of solution, so I'll hand over to the person whose idea it is, Dahar Master "unusually articulate for a Ferasan" Rrueo of the KDF:-
We haz Krenim temporal hiding-things gizmo nao, yes? Iconianz an heraldz no can c us wen we use dis. So, we folo Iconianz in2 Herald sfeesphaea big round ting, an we taeks wid uz big doomsday wepn, like mayb trilithium warhed or Federation entirely peaceful Genesis Device. We taeks dis 2 central sun ov big round ting, set timr, go back aout, waet 4 timer 2 caount daown, big bang, baibai heraldz. Maybe we no get aksual Iconianz, but who kairs? Dey no gots huge spaes armada any moars, iz not enuff ov dem 2 conker galaxy by demselvez, we set fat Klingonz on dem if dey try. Iz eazy plan, much saefer den messin wid timelinez. Kitteh wil du it 4 u if Fedz are 2 wimpy. Kitteh wil blow up big round ting an b back in tiem 4 tea.
OK. Apart from the actual, y'know, ethics of genocide (and my own ethics get a bit flexible if it's coming down to them or me)... anyone see a practical problem with bad kitty's idea? We can enter the sphere, we can conceal ourselves from the Iconians, we have a whole bunch of sun-destroying weapons that will, in some cases, fit inside a handy knapsack. Where's the problem?
That's sheer brilliance right there.
Ultimately, however, genocide is going to be the result of the war, one way or the other, even in Dahar Master Rrueo's solution. The Iconians are not going to suddenly change their stripes and admit "Oh, hey, we were being obnoxious poo-heads, and we're sorry. Carry on with your lives and we'll go back to where we were." The possibility that we have any sort of prison which could hold Iconians is slim at best. They will have to die, or they will kill all of us (although they may be "merciful" and allow some of us to live out the rest of our lives as slaves and breeders of a new generation of slaves -- which, of course, would be a fate worse than death). There really is no way around this: one race or several will have to be exterminated, UNLESS we travel back in time and somehow change history first-hand, rather than relying on technology to erase the species from ever having existed.
Well, if it's a fight to the bitter finish... the war ends with one side DEAD. If that means the extinction of a sentient race... well so be it. It's only genocide if you are systematically eradicating them. The key distinction is the same as it always is between war and murder.... is the other guy trying to kill you?
There's litterally STILL the preserver pods on the other planets that's NOT Lanas .... why the FRELL has nobody gone and tried to wake those baldies up yet?
We don't happen to know they are there.
I mean we had to spend some time looking for the ones we found, so I don't think the player has a real good idea of where the other fridges full of preservers are.
little cave.. last place we visited putting the map together during the breen arc.. preserver pods.
Thats the same little cave that M'Tara laid waste too in the opening battle with the Iconians. That library is gone. The other libraries are in unknown locations.
i think he's talking about the cave BEFORE that one, on raveh; the ice cave
i don't remember any preserver pods there, however
Because we don't know if there are. The only ones that we know were around were vaporized by the Iconians, an act of genocide, and I suppose patricide, by the way.
There's litterally STILL the preserver pods on the other planets that's NOT Lanas .... why the FRELL has nobody gone and tried to wake those baldies up yet?
We don't happen to know they are there.
I mean we had to spend some time looking for the ones we found, so I don't think the player has a real good idea of where the other fridges full of preservers are.
little cave.. last place we visited putting the map together during the breen arc.. preserver pods.
Must have missed that. I only remember the ones near the Preserver library, and those are kinda vaporized. I guess so long as there are other pods we should probably go wake one up, instead of using this time eraser.
wholeheartedly agree., we only need 1 preserver and a console.. which exists there too, and we are golden.. my preserver can't even remember his name, a virus caused an almost total amnesia.. works well as a science officer though, things may come back to him over time, if we actually exist at all.
Someday I really wish we could edit the "Alien" tag in our character bio. No preservers on my ship, just me and my Caracal T'Kat.
I hope the rumor is true and I can get my clothes back from ancient iconia.
The preserver idea seems like the best option, but we have this time McGuffin dropped by Sela, that leads us to the Krenim, and all the issues we may be forced to do by the railroad of the story.
It's a great option, based on nothing. Just because there's a Preserver monument there, doesn't mean there's a Preserver there. If so, there are Preservers on an asteroid in S'hinga system and on Defera, as well, but there's no evidence of that.
This is an MMO, not a Star Trek episode simulator. That would make for a terrible game.
There's litterally STILL the preserver pods on the other planets that's NOT Lanas .... why the FRELL has nobody gone and tried to wake those baldies up yet?
We don't happen to know they are there.
I mean we had to spend some time looking for the ones we found, so I don't think the player has a real good idea of where the other fridges full of preservers are.
little cave.. last place we visited putting the map together during the breen arc.. preserver pods.
Thats the same little cave that M'Tara laid waste too in the opening battle with the Iconians. That library is gone. The other libraries are in unknown locations.
i think he's talking about the cave BEFORE that one, on raveh; the ice cave
i don't remember any preserver pods there, however
Because we don't know if there are. The only ones that we know were around were vaporized by the Iconians, an act of genocide, and I suppose patricide, by the way.
That is because you have to show they are not nice people. It's not justification to lower ourselves to that level though.
Well, if it's a fight to the bitter finish... the war ends with one side DEAD. If that means the extinction of a sentient race... well so be it. It's only genocide if you are systematically eradicating them. The key distinction is the same as it always is between war and murder.... is the other guy trying to kill you?
This is essentially true. It's not genocide if each of the 12 wants you dead or in servitude. We can't contain them, so our only choice is to destroy them, or somehow convince them to leave the rest of the galaxy alone.
This is an MMO, not a Star Trek episode simulator. That would make for a terrible game.
I wouldnt be surprised if the weapon fails, we all go back in time and cause the first destruction on the iconians "again". In a it happend before it happens again kind of cliche thing.
There's litterally STILL the preserver pods on the other planets that's NOT Lanas .... why the FRELL has nobody gone and tried to wake those baldies up yet?
We don't happen to know they are there.
I mean we had to spend some time looking for the ones we found, so I don't think the player has a real good idea of where the other fridges full of preservers are.
little cave.. last place we visited putting the map together during the breen arc.. preserver pods.
Thats the same little cave that M'Tara laid waste too in the opening battle with the Iconians. That library is gone. The other libraries are in unknown locations.
i think he's talking about the cave BEFORE that one, on raveh; the ice cave
i don't remember any preserver pods there, however
Because we don't know if there are. The only ones that we know were around were vaporized by the Iconians, an act of genocide, and I suppose patricide, by the way.
That is because you have to show they are not nice people. It's not justification to lower ourselves to that level though.
That is because that's what they did. They killed all that was left of an entire species, as far as we know. A species that they knew firsthand, and acknowledged as their elders. As of now, they have given us no choice but to fight them, perhaps to the death. They've refused to acknowledge us as anything worth negotiating with, continued to attack us and kill us, and now, when we have shown the ability to be taken seriously as a threat to them personally, their reaction was to go even more militant.
Using the Krenim time weapon on Iconia would be assured genocide, but from the way things are going, either we will all die in resistance to them, or we somehow get more chances at them being arrogant and the result is the same, it's still an extinct species if we wipe them out conventionally in self-defense. This is all if we use the Timeship on Iconia, of course. Anything short of that isn't going to erase the Iconians from ever existing.
This is an MMO, not a Star Trek episode simulator. That would make for a terrible game.
The thing is we don't have to make this war them or us.
Most wars are fought until one side gives up, not to a complete and total genocide of the loser.
As our brilliant Ferasan officer pointed out, they are beings of energy, remove their power source and they become as helpless as new born puppies. It's a fact they can be weakened (and pretty easily apparently), why are we not pursuing this avenue of thought?
Perhaps as was pointed out above, show them some respect that a 200,000 year old race should be given - while in their weakened state, and maybe just maybe some of that reason that L'Miren showed at the beginning will come back to them.
It's just so sad how this is all so completely uneccessary given what we already learned during the story and previous events in the game, yet is being railroaded as the ONLY option because of lazy, bad writing.
If this indeed is how the story turns out, I likely no longer will find this game worth playing. I came for the trek, and what is happening now is not trek.
this is just how bad this writing is.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group
It has nothing to do with how many are left.
thanks gradii, was going to post that definition too. i'm really surprised there are some who don't understand the concept...
Actually , there is a difference between understanding a concept and applying it .
I didn't ask folks to give me the text book definition of genocide, I wanted to hear the arguments against it in context & application .
Or in other words I wanted to hear what you believed .
Now 'qziqza' gave his suppositions , and while I admire most of them (except the bending the knee) , I'll have to respectfully disagree .
Large scale military decisions are always made based on loose Intel and the knowledge that the outcome is not 100% assured .
Bending the knee is not for those who in their latest communique told us basically "you've come to our attention ... , do not come to our attention again !" , as those are not words from someone who's highly interested in opening an embassy on Earth .
Also, Humanity (in Trek lore) has outgrown the need for 'gods' .
See the TOS ep. "Who mourns for Adonais" for further details .
And lastly , like someone else has already pointed out, some folks seem to be missing the difference between genocide and war .
War is indeed where the other side is actively trying to kill you .
Now you can have the moral higher ground by going quietly to the slaughter ... , lamenting that if someone survived , they will remember you as a victim of genocide ... , but other than that ... , all is fair in love and war ... -- and that includes eradicating your enemy before it / they eradicate you .
not on Iconia, they can't... too much history... but to eradicate New Romulus... why not? That would probably finish the survivors of the purge 200,000 years ago
It's just so sad how this is all so completely uneccessary given what we already learned during the story and previous events in the game, yet is being railroaded as the ONLY option because of lazy, bad writing.
If this indeed is how the story turns out, I likely no longer will find this game worth playing. I came for the trek, and what is happening now is not trek.
this is just how bad this writing is.
I honestly hope you are not saying this seriously. The writting has been really bad since a lot of time ago, not just now...
It's a great option, based on nothing. Just because there's a Preserver monument there, doesn't mean there's a Preserver there. If so, there are Preservers on an asteroid in S'hinga system and on Defera, as well, but there's no evidence of that.
oh yeah, what was i thinking? just a crazy opinion eh? i must have been imagining things yeah? no i said they are there, because they are there
As our brilliant Ferasan officer pointed out, they are beings of energy, remove their power source and they become as helpless as new born puppies.
I know that some NPC made the claim in-game that the Iconians are "energy beings." I find the notion untenable. A sword, even The Sword of Kahless, cannot cut the "arm" off of a being of pure energy. It appears to me that the Iconians have physical bodies with a strong energy-based "essence" inside.
I also find the idea to be rather Manichaean; the notion that physical bodies are somehow inferior or less evolved than bodies of pure energy, the idea that spirit is energy and imprisoned in matter, or other such metaphysical dualism, does not satisfy the questions of Metaphysics (by which I mean the branch of Philosophy which deals with questions of reality and actuality, not the dualistic use of the term to refer to New Agey woo).
It's a great option, based on nothing. Just because there's a Preserver monument there, doesn't mean there's a Preserver there. If so, there are Preservers on an asteroid in S'hinga system and on Defera, as well, but there's no evidence of that.
oh yeah, what was i thinking? just a crazy opinion eh? i must have been imagining things yeah? no i said they are there, because they are there
It's also worth noting that when we first discover the Preserver Archive on Laenas and ask the Archivist what the Preservers will do "now," he/she answers with, among other things, the speculation that some of them may wish to explore the galaxy to see what their "children" have made of it. We do not currently know if any of them decided to do so, but if even one did, then we also have no reason to suppose that that one had returned to Laenas and his sleep/hibernation/cryogenic pod by the time of "Blood of Ancients."
But most people seem to have overlooked both of these things, and only very few have suggested trying to locate/contact any remaining Preservers.
I would like to apologise in advance if this has already been said and I've missed it (and presumably everyone else has).
The alliance are looking at multiple targets for erasure. If they were going to wipe out the Iconians using the temporal weapons there wouldn't be multiple targets, there would only be one: the Iconians. The weapon works by blasting the thing you want to remove and then reality rearranges around that change. The Alliance aren't going to commit genocide, they are looking to remove a target that they believe will prevent the war from happening in the first place. That doesn't necessarily mean they are going to wipe a species from existence.
Surely it's going to be the Hobus star that gets blasted? Surely that's the most obvious thing? It was the Iconians' first move in the war on the Alpha Quadrant, if it never went super nova then the war would never have happened. The timeline will be seriously screwed up, but they need a new storyline to keep the game going and a complete reboot seems to obvious path. Plus we wipe out JJ Trek! Win win!
: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group
It has nothing to do with how many are left.
thanks gradii, was going to post that definition too. i'm really surprised there are some who don't understand the concept...
Actually , there is a difference between understanding a concept and applying it .
I didn't ask folks to give me the text book definition of genocide, I wanted to hear the arguments against it in context & application .
Or in other words I wanted to hear what you believed .
Now 'qziqza' gave his suppositions , and while I admire most of them (except the bending the knee) , I'll have to respectfully disagree .
Large scale military decisions are always made based on loose Intel and the knowledge that the outcome is not 100% assured .
Bending the knee is not for those who in their latest communique told us basically "you've come to our attention ... , do not come to our attention again !" , as those are not words from someone who's highly interested in opening an embassy on Earth .
Also, Humanity (in Trek lore) has outgrown the need for 'gods' .
See the TOS ep. "Who mourns for Adonais" for further details .
And lastly , like someone else has already pointed out, some folks seem to be missing the difference between genocide and war .
War is indeed where the other side is actively trying to kill you .
Now you can have the moral higher ground by going quietly to the slaughter ... , lamenting that if someone survived , they will remember you as a victim of genocide ... , but other than that ... , all is fair in love and war ... -- and that includes eradicating your enemy before it / they eradicate you .
lol, for starters i don't need a lesson on the ins and outs of military decisions, thanks for thought though . what we are considering, is not an act of war, it isn't even a process or war. if we are not willing to consider any other form of action.. no attempts at peaceful resolution.. no mutual cessation of military action.. no request for their surrender.. or consideration for ours.. then i'm sorry, by any definition it is not war.
had there original intention been to wipe us out, i think they would have done so by now, they clearly have the means and the numbers to wage a war of total annihilation.. its the same as the ground war on kobali prime, there have been many encounters but no outright, total destruction.. why? until such time as we know exactly what their intentions are, although things may have changed through stupidity and a missed opportunity, we are talking about the total, irrevocable destruction, of a species and everything that species has ever represented and done, and all based on the assumption that they want to totally destroy us, and not even caring or wanting to consider why, there is no rational way to excuse this position.. it is the very essence of genocide, and then some.
as an aside.. what if they are totally in the right? what if what they are doing is for the better? what if they are correcting a travesty, or great wrong? their arrogance, ideology even theology does not preclude them from being benevolent, dutiful and caring, they have issues with us, that is very clear. they are forgiving of their heralds, they may call their created forces pets, but ive always put my pets above all others aside from family so i cant see the issue with that personally lol. also when they spoke of the solanae, that seemed almost like they were talking about an ally or a friend, we are seeing a specific side of them, and they are mighty pissed at us for some reason, i could give you a pretty decent list of issues i have with us. what i'd like to know is, how is our current plan of action, any arrogant and 'god like' than theirs?
It's a great option, based on nothing. Just because there's a Preserver monument there, doesn't mean there's a Preserver there. If so, there are Preservers on an asteroid in S'hinga system and on Defera, as well, but there's no evidence of that.
oh yeah, what was i thinking? just a crazy opinion eh? i must have been imagining things yeah? no i said they are there, because they are there
It's also worth noting that when we first discover the Preserver Archive on Laenas and ask the Archivist what the Preservers will do "now," he/she answers with, among other things, the speculation that some of them may wish to explore the galaxy to see what their "children" have made of it. We do not currently know if any of them decided to do so, but if even one did, then we also have no reason to suppose that that one had returned to Laenas and his sleep/hibernation/cryogenic pod by the time of "Blood of Ancients."
But most people seem to have overlooked both of these things, and only very few have suggested trying to locate/contact any remaining Preservers.
good point, thanks, i had totally forgotten that bit of dialogue, been a while since i ran the series. i remembered those pods though, so i decided to run the arc so i could grab a screenshot to reference my comment, needed to complete it on my delta recruit preserver.. just on my way to do that last mission now
There's litterally STILL the preserver pods on the other planets that's NOT Lanas .... why the FRELL has nobody gone and tried to wake those baldies up yet?
We don't happen to know they are there.
I mean we had to spend some time looking for the ones we found, so I don't think the player has a real good idea of where the other fridges full of preservers are.
Actually we do... The ice planet we get the last piece of the Preserver starchart there are 2 pods in that thing. or ther were.... Cryptic might have ret-coned them out
We don't want what the Feds have. We want the equivalent. We want fairer treatment. Concern, desire, greed to some extent, and passionate belief that the enough people would buy KDF items to make it worth Cryptic's while.
It could be explained that those pods are either empty, or just have computer systems or power source for the technology at that location. Just because it looks like a pod that contained a preserver, doesn't guarantee that's what is inside it.
As our brilliant Ferasan officer pointed out, they are beings of energy, remove their power source and they become as helpless as new born puppies.
I know that some NPC made the claim in-game that the Iconians are "energy beings." I find the notion untenable. A sword, even The Sword of Kahless, cannot cut the "arm" off of a being of pure energy. It appears to me that the Iconians have physical bodies with a strong energy-based "essence" inside.
I also find the idea to be rather Manichaean; the notion that physical bodies are somehow inferior or less evolved than bodies of pure energy, the idea that spirit is energy and imprisoned in matter, or other such metaphysical dualism, does not satisfy the questions of Metaphysics (by which I mean the branch of Philosophy which deals with questions of reality and actuality, not the dualistic use of the term to refer to New Agey woo).
Well, what I meant by 'energy beings' was the fact that all we had to do was turn off a couple of consoles on a ship and that removes enough energy they are required to use their 'personal battery' to do anything. A battery I might add, that is VERY limited in power.
All the alliance would have to do is find a way of cutting them off from external power sources (a cliche' energy disruption device) and viola! 11 harmless Iconians. War over.
the "time weapon" can also remove certain events aswell i think if they can discover what was the reason that made the iconians go on the warpath maybe they can remove that event thus it never occured and thus the iconians stay hidden.
also we dont know if these "Others" are the ones pushing the iconians to war my thought on that is the 'others" is the Q testing humanity YET again seeing if we would indeed use such a weapon to comitt an atrocity or have the wisdom not to use it at all.
Comments
But an all assault on the Iconian Gateway Network by targeting the Herald Sphere might be exactly how "prolonging the advance" could look like in a war against the Iconians.
As long as the Iconians are busy safeguarding their Herald Sphere, their flagship or busy repairing damaged parts of their gateway network, they are sending out less ships that could stumble upon the Timeship facility.
"the needs of the many out way the needs of the few, or the one.."
well, i think risking personal instant obliteration, by taking a knee and showing proper deference, and trying to open up a dialogue to save everything, is worth the chance.. would that not be a proper use of that philosophy?
feel free to try that if you want, but few of my characters would drop to their knees for anyone outside the bedroom, let alone anyone that arrogant and megalomaniacal that they try to pass themselves off as gods
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
"I don't know about you, but I'd call that a bargain."
Someday I really wish we could edit the "Alien" tag in our character bio. No preservers on my ship, just me and my Caracal T'Kat.
The preserver idea seems like the best option, but we have this time McGuffin dropped by Sela, that leads us to the Krenim, and all the issues we may be forced to do by the railroad of the story.
Proper deference? Maybe you enjoy masochism, engaging in sycophancy, and being enslaved. I do not. "Live free or die" are words I take to heart. And if my death is necessary to avoid living unfree, then I will take as many of the aspiring "masters" into hell with me as I can.
All these other options people have been talking about have been tried and failed, if they were remotely rational proposals, except one (which I will point to momentarily). Diplomacy has not been tried, but it's also not a remotely rational proposal in this situation. The Iconians are hellbent on being the overlords of the galaxy. We just cast off the tyranny of the Star Empire and its accursed Tal'Shiar. We didn't do that in order to now submit to an ancient group of capricious ousted tyrants with god complexes.
The arrogant Fed-centric assumption that Romulans are "okay" with genocide is just as offensive as TNG's twisted view of what Romulans are, which turned the original presentation of Romulan culture in TOS on its head. And yes, genocide is what the proposed "solution" entails, whether there be twelve or trillions or even a single one.
Nor is an appeal to pseudo-Surakian utilitarianism a justification for it; utilitarianism, whether that of John Stuart Mill or that based on a misunderstanding of the teachings of Surak, is a form of consequentialist ethics, and a consequentialist ethic says "The end justifies the means." Such a perspective is not ethically praiseworthy. In context, Surak's teaching is not quite identical with this, but is instead a recognition that one or a few may have to willingly surrender their lives in order to secure the needs of many, and that is ethically praiseworthy. Do not continue to twist Surak's words in an effort to justify your position. His teachings have been too often distorted, and while I am by no means a Surakian, I object to the exploitation of out-of-context statements as a means of justifying anything which is ethically repugnant.
However, any attempt to condemn the plan based on a legalistic ethic (a legalistic ethic says that acts themselves are good or evil, without any regard to consequence, intention, or context) is equally unfounded. The great flaw of legalism is the reality of "Catch-22" situations, in which, no matter what course of action is chosen, one must violate the laws of his or her ethic. In this current situation, we have nearly exhausted our options, and the refusal to act so as to wipe out the Iconian threat once and for all means that we would necessarily be condemning untold numbers (certainly more than trillions) to suffering, slavery, and death at the hands of beings who have demonstrated no capacity for any type of ethic, but have instead given evidence of capricious natures.
The option to which I alluded above, the option which is rational and has not been attempted yet, is this:
That's sheer brilliance right there.
Ultimately, however, genocide is going to be the result of the war, one way or the other, even in Dahar Master Rrueo's solution. The Iconians are not going to suddenly change their stripes and admit "Oh, hey, we were being obnoxious poo-heads, and we're sorry. Carry on with your lives and we'll go back to where we were." The possibility that we have any sort of prison which could hold Iconians is slim at best. They will have to die, or they will kill all of us (although they may be "merciful" and allow some of us to live out the rest of our lives as slaves and breeders of a new generation of slaves -- which, of course, would be a fate worse than death). There really is no way around this: one race or several will have to be exterminated, UNLESS we travel back in time and somehow change history first-hand, rather than relying on technology to erase the species from ever having existed.
My character Tsin'xing
Because we don't know if there are. The only ones that we know were around were vaporized by the Iconians, an act of genocide, and I suppose patricide, by the way.
It's a great option, based on nothing. Just because there's a Preserver monument there, doesn't mean there's a Preserver there. If so, there are Preservers on an asteroid in S'hinga system and on Defera, as well, but there's no evidence of that.
That is because you have to show they are not nice people. It's not justification to lower ourselves to that level though.
This is essentially true. It's not genocide if each of the 12 wants you dead or in servitude. We can't contain them, so our only choice is to destroy them, or somehow convince them to leave the rest of the galaxy alone.
That is because that's what they did. They killed all that was left of an entire species, as far as we know. A species that they knew firsthand, and acknowledged as their elders. As of now, they have given us no choice but to fight them, perhaps to the death. They've refused to acknowledge us as anything worth negotiating with, continued to attack us and kill us, and now, when we have shown the ability to be taken seriously as a threat to them personally, their reaction was to go even more militant.
Using the Krenim time weapon on Iconia would be assured genocide, but from the way things are going, either we will all die in resistance to them, or we somehow get more chances at them being arrogant and the result is the same, it's still an extinct species if we wipe them out conventionally in self-defense. This is all if we use the Timeship on Iconia, of course. Anything short of that isn't going to erase the Iconians from ever existing.
Most wars are fought until one side gives up, not to a complete and total genocide of the loser.
As our brilliant Ferasan officer pointed out, they are beings of energy, remove their power source and they become as helpless as new born puppies. It's a fact they can be weakened (and pretty easily apparently), why are we not pursuing this avenue of thought?
Perhaps as was pointed out above, show them some respect that a 200,000 year old race should be given - while in their weakened state, and maybe just maybe some of that reason that L'Miren showed at the beginning will come back to them.
arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline/#/discussion/1203368/pve-content-a-list-of-gamewide-polishing-pass-suggestions
If this indeed is how the story turns out, I likely no longer will find this game worth playing. I came for the trek, and what is happening now is not trek.
this is just how bad this writing is.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
Actually , there is a difference between understanding a concept and applying it .
I didn't ask folks to give me the text book definition of genocide, I wanted to hear the arguments against it in context & application .
Or in other words I wanted to hear what you believed .
Now 'qziqza' gave his suppositions , and while I admire most of them (except the bending the knee) , I'll have to respectfully disagree .
Large scale military decisions are always made based on loose Intel and the knowledge that the outcome is not 100% assured .
Bending the knee is not for those who in their latest communique told us basically "you've come to our attention ... , do not come to our attention again !" , as those are not words from someone who's highly interested in opening an embassy on Earth .
Also, Humanity (in Trek lore) has outgrown the need for 'gods' .
See the TOS ep. "Who mourns for Adonais" for further details .
And lastly , like someone else has already pointed out, some folks seem to be missing the difference between genocide and war .
War is indeed where the other side is actively trying to kill you .
Now you can have the moral higher ground by going quietly to the slaughter ... , lamenting that if someone survived , they will remember you as a victim of genocide ... , but other than that ... , all is fair in love and war ... -- and that includes eradicating your enemy before it / they eradicate you .
not on Iconia, they can't... too much history... but to eradicate New Romulus... why not? That would probably finish the survivors of the purge 200,000 years ago
I honestly hope you are not saying this seriously. The writting has been really bad since a lot of time ago, not just now...
I know that some NPC made the claim in-game that the Iconians are "energy beings." I find the notion untenable. A sword, even The Sword of Kahless, cannot cut the "arm" off of a being of pure energy. It appears to me that the Iconians have physical bodies with a strong energy-based "essence" inside.
I also find the idea to be rather Manichaean; the notion that physical bodies are somehow inferior or less evolved than bodies of pure energy, the idea that spirit is energy and imprisoned in matter, or other such metaphysical dualism, does not satisfy the questions of Metaphysics (by which I mean the branch of Philosophy which deals with questions of reality and actuality, not the dualistic use of the term to refer to New Agey woo).
It's also worth noting that when we first discover the Preserver Archive on Laenas and ask the Archivist what the Preservers will do "now," he/she answers with, among other things, the speculation that some of them may wish to explore the galaxy to see what their "children" have made of it. We do not currently know if any of them decided to do so, but if even one did, then we also have no reason to suppose that that one had returned to Laenas and his sleep/hibernation/cryogenic pod by the time of "Blood of Ancients."
But most people seem to have overlooked both of these things, and only very few have suggested trying to locate/contact any remaining Preservers.
The alliance are looking at multiple targets for erasure. If they were going to wipe out the Iconians using the temporal weapons there wouldn't be multiple targets, there would only be one: the Iconians. The weapon works by blasting the thing you want to remove and then reality rearranges around that change. The Alliance aren't going to commit genocide, they are looking to remove a target that they believe will prevent the war from happening in the first place. That doesn't necessarily mean they are going to wipe a species from existence.
Surely it's going to be the Hobus star that gets blasted? Surely that's the most obvious thing? It was the Iconians' first move in the war on the Alpha Quadrant, if it never went super nova then the war would never have happened. The timeline will be seriously screwed up, but they need a new storyline to keep the game going and a complete reboot seems to obvious path. Plus we wipe out JJ Trek! Win win!
had there original intention been to wipe us out, i think they would have done so by now, they clearly have the means and the numbers to wage a war of total annihilation.. its the same as the ground war on kobali prime, there have been many encounters but no outright, total destruction.. why? until such time as we know exactly what their intentions are, although things may have changed through stupidity and a missed opportunity, we are talking about the total, irrevocable destruction, of a species and everything that species has ever represented and done, and all based on the assumption that they want to totally destroy us, and not even caring or wanting to consider why, there is no rational way to excuse this position.. it is the very essence of genocide, and then some.
as an aside.. what if they are totally in the right? what if what they are doing is for the better? what if they are correcting a travesty, or great wrong? their arrogance, ideology even theology does not preclude them from being benevolent, dutiful and caring, they have issues with us, that is very clear. they are forgiving of their heralds, they may call their created forces pets, but ive always put my pets above all others aside from family so i cant see the issue with that personally lol. also when they spoke of the solanae, that seemed almost like they were talking about an ally or a friend, we are seeing a specific side of them, and they are mighty pissed at us for some reason, i could give you a pretty decent list of issues i have with us. what i'd like to know is, how is our current plan of action, any arrogant and 'god like' than theirs?
Actually we do... The ice planet we get the last piece of the Preserver starchart there are 2 pods in that thing. or ther were.... Cryptic might have ret-coned them out
Well, what I meant by 'energy beings' was the fact that all we had to do was turn off a couple of consoles on a ship and that removes enough energy they are required to use their 'personal battery' to do anything. A battery I might add, that is VERY limited in power.
All the alliance would have to do is find a way of cutting them off from external power sources (a cliche' energy disruption device) and viola! 11 harmless Iconians. War over.
arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline/#/discussion/1203368/pve-content-a-list-of-gamewide-polishing-pass-suggestions
also we dont know if these "Others" are the ones pushing the iconians to war my thought on that is the 'others" is the Q testing humanity YET again seeing if we would indeed use such a weapon to comitt an atrocity or have the wisdom not to use it at all.