Very simply, the Preservers never developed their first children. Who says they still want to develop children?
But that's wrong. It's not that the Preservers would have chosen not to develop children, just that the alteration of the timeline would somehow prevent them from creating the Iconians. Something humanoid could easily take their place in an altered timeline.
From what I recall of Year of Hell, when the Timeship targets a planet, it just removes all traces of any intelligent civilization. I assume from that that it basically reverts the planet to a state before the first intelligent life existed there by some means.
This probably wouldn't have any effect on the Preservers' actions, since they apparently seeded Earth some 4 billion years ago. Unless the Iconians are older than that, which I doubt. Being the first could simply mean that intelligent life developed on Iconia 500 million years ago, giving them 400 million years on the Voth.
This is an MMO, not a Star Trek episode simulator. That would make for a terrible game.
The Iconian war is meant to be a "Ragnarok" situation for the Federation. If an enemy is trying to wipe out your whole race and all other options have been exhausted, it's justifiable to wipe out theirs first.
Only if you've watched enough Star Trek, you know regardless of real life sensibilities, the Federation would still say NO.
Especially considering you run a very real risk of eliminating yourselves, the federation, and everything you know by toying with a weapon which is more dangerous TO YOU, OR ANYONE than the Iconians ever can be.
There's already been the debut of one or more very real alternatives than doing this TRIBBLE action. Why aren't we exploring those first?
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
Only if you've watched enough Star Trek, you know regardless of real life sensibilities, the Federation would still say NO.
Absolutely.
I'd be disgusted by this valorization of genocide in any case, but it's especially odious in a game nominally based upon Star Trek. In Star Trek, choosing humanistic principles over expedience was always the right decision, and that's what I most loved about it.
To be clear, there've been plenty of Star Trek episodes in which someone in Starfleet chooses to abandon principle -- I think it was rare for an admiral to show up and not try to do that -- so I can certainly see a plot line in which the Alliance considers using the Krenim Weapon. What troubles me is that it seems as if Nog and everyone else has just zipped right along the rails without even pausing to consider the implications.
Did no one pay attention to the Dominion war? Genocide is exactly what section 31 tried to bring upon the founders with the disease they infected them with. Desperate times call for desperate measures, in the face of overwhelming defeat people will do what they must in order to survive. And Nog has already expressed concerns about using temporal weapons and the ramifications using them could or would bring about.
Very simply, the Preservers never developed their first children. Who says they still want to develop children?
But that's wrong. It's not that the Preservers would have chosen not to develop children, just that the alteration of the timeline would somehow prevent them from creating the Iconians. Something humanoid could easily take their place in an altered timeline.
If you take the Iconians out of the equation, then you create a power vacuum and someone or something else will always come around to try and take it's place.
I doubt the weapon would ever be used on the Iconians as it would affect the quadrants too much anyhow as the dialogues suggest have been discovered in the simulations. The target then will not be the Iconians or the Heralds but the 'One' who united them and helped them recover in the past. It is highly likely that the 'One' had virtually no impact in the alpha/beta/delta quadrants and as such would make a great target for a super weapon like this. Of course arguments would then be had afterwards as some factions want the gun destroyed and others wish to keep it.
Genocide or not, playing with temporal-stuff is usually more trouble than it is Worth...
Hast thou not gone against sincerity
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
Did no one pay attention to the Dominion war? Genocide is exactly what section 31 tried to bring upon the founders with the disease they infected them with.
And the protagonists went to great lengths to undo this and to defeat Section 31, which was after all an expression of a theme in ST DS9 that the virtues of the Federation required active commitment, because evil was still and always would be a possibility.
What if that might be part of it though, that we use the weapon ourselves in a mission or event, and then deal with the effects of it bringing up the fact of whether it was worth using it. Than us or fleets working towards fixing the change, and fighting against those that did it an worked to silence those that sounded thier oppisition to using the weapon. Could be a entire season long event that brings back older enemies that without the Iconian's infuence are very different now, even like the many races that were held back/destroyed by the iconians being different or forming empires. After fixing the change we made the war could continue in a different manner or way that makes it different now.
But i think it will be that the remaining two Iconians summoned by their defeated sister will make an all out offensive destroying many worlds, attacking the homeworlds of those they feel are to blame, and taking less of a war mentality an more of a genocide method now. Than when we get the time ship we can choose to take our several different places like iconia, the herald sphere, the main flagships that the lead Iconians are on, which might lead to bad ending even to where we travel back in time to see the fall of Iconia along with how bad a choice it was to kill the Iconian we did an somehow using the temperol ship to reverse the death of that Iconian. (i cann't remember her name right now.)
What do you suggest as a solution to the Iconian problem, then? Reasoning with them? Continuing to throw ship after ship at them, with increasing loss of life on both sides? Surrendering to their overlordship? This is war, and they chose it, because they believe they have a right and duty to rule the galaxy. They regard us as insects, and have sufficient hubris to imagine that they are gods. They're still trying to fight a war they already lost, 200,000 years ago, with all the baggage left over from their previous defeat, which they are now projecting onto us. Reasoning with such persons is unlikely to produce the desired result. Devastating a third of our resources and personnel doesn't seem like a very good solution, either. Surrender is not an option. It is indeed us or them, not because we lust for ancient blood, but because they cannot bring themselves to accept that the galaxy has changed and to adapt accordingly.
If we don't remove the Iconians from the timeline entirely, but instead remove something smaller that slows down their war efforts, we can get around the genocide, erase the events of the current war, and still have the Iconians around for later. Say if we erase a lifeless planet that they used as a factory or staging area or other place of strategic importance. Setting them back 40 years or so would put them clear out of the way of STO and we could hand-wave all of this unpleasantness away.
But... I agree it is much more likely that they will have us just use the nuclear option. As has been said already, we kill so many things in this game it pretty much doesn't matter anymore.
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
but that is my point, if the iconians are the original victims? then everyone already is.
they cant use timetravel, any effects they want to implement have to be done directly through the course of time as it passes normally. if our coalition is responsible for the destruction of iconia 200,000yrs ago.. then they have been moving the pieces in a very long game of chess to get things to this point. If this is the case, in order to save their world and preserve the prime time line, they can't afford to divert our incursion, only the outcome of it.
we are about to commit to an extreme last ditch attempt to save our galaxy, if the conditions of this war, were any different, would we even think about a genocide machine? no, i really dont think we would, i dont think temporal intel would let us. looking at it with a dispassionate eye, the iconians have been working dogmatically towards a very specific plan, and until we killed M'Tara, that plan did not involve destroying this galaxy and everyone in it (aside from maybe the krenim) unlike our idea of removing them from ever existing. 100's of thousands of years of iconian influence removed.. the good and the bad. we don't know enough to understand what this is really all about, to have considered using this krenim weapon was ahhh, but now?
aside from a word here of there we have no idea what or how the iconians were before, we do have evidence that shows they were adored by the species they worked closest with, but why they were originally attacked, we dont know, we don't even know who or what set everything on its course.. i mean, had there been no war 200000yrs ago, and the iconians were a benevolent species, who would have gained from their destruction in the 1st place? what would they have gained, and why?
if the iconians are a product of past events, and we are in any way linked to those past event, then we are simply at the closing stages of a very long chess games. im still confused at there being no dialogue option for us with M'Tara, at any point during that fight, how many federation officers would have stared blankly at her during dialogue and said " " in return? even a klingon would have something to say.. even if it was a little something before striking a killing blow.. but to just stand and watch her die in total silence.. nah, thats pants
yeah listen STO is a bizarro IDIC universe where Federation is essentially the Borg, assimilating cultures and technology into their own (cf lockbox prizes), and this universe doesn't care about that
It was actually kind of explained in-game; The needs of the many (us and the rest of the Galaxy) outweigh the needs of the few (Iconians). For us to survive (the many) the few must perish.
I think it's really a horrible saying if one thinks about it, that has become something that it shouldn't have. Doing horrible dirty deeds to a few for the sake of many is never right. No disrespect to the man that uttered those words, but I don't think it was foreseen the full consequences of that saying when applied to many of the situations and contexts it is applied to. it can be used to justify many heinous things that corrupt the purpose of the many along the way.
i've always seen that as meaning self sacrifice, a few doing what is right, to preserve the many. i guess it can be twisted to meet any situation, but genocide, a consideration in any vulcan philosophy? please, i really dont think so.
diplomacy should always be our 1st option, and it must remain an option till the bitter end. have we even tried talking to them yet? apart from some dude in a pair his oggs, with worg grease down his front and a blade in his hand.
What do you suggest as a solution to the Iconian problem, then? Reasoning with them? Continuing to throw ship after ship at them, with increasing loss of life on both sides? Surrendering to their overlordship? This is war, and they chose it, because they believe they have a right and duty to rule the galaxy. They regard us as insects, and have sufficient hubris to imagine that they are gods. They're still trying to fight a war they already lost, 200,000 years ago, with all the baggage left over from their previous defeat, which they are now projecting onto us. Reasoning with such persons is unlikely to produce the desired result. Devastating a third of our resources and personnel doesn't seem like a very good solution, either. Surrender is not an option. It is indeed us or them, not because we lust for ancient blood, but because they cannot bring themselves to accept that the galaxy has changed and to adapt accordingly.
I suggest exploring the other options which have already been presented as sidepoints in the storyline.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
I find the idea of using the time weapons to be abhorrent. It goes against everything the Federation stands for. In the show when someone decides that monstrous ends are justified by dire needs they are in the wrong and the main characters are working to stop them. It's deeply wrong and I can't stomach the idea that we are sitting and happily building this weapon for the Krenim. We know they have committed genocide on other civilizations, we have little bits of them in glass cases. We should not be having tea with these monsters, we should be bringing them up for crimes against sentient life in court. This weapon we seem oh so happy to deliver is indiscriminate death. It removes the young and the old, the guilty and the innocent. All the lives and dreams of a civilization are wiped away just the same as if you had gassed them in the night when they were defenseless. Even the KDF should be against it, this is the ultimate cowards weapon, far worse than a knife in the back. Every last officer that supports it will burn in Gre'thor for abandoning honor and giving in to fear.
The Krenim will someday use this weapon against us, and we will deserve it for being so desperate to trust a scorpion.
Okay, I'll start by repeating what someone else has already said:
The Krenim weapon hasn't been used yet. It may never be used. If you have knowledge that the weapon has been used, Starfleet DTI would like to have a talk with you.
Now, my own thoughts:
The Krenim weapon may be usable for a Mutual Assured Destruction ploy--"hey, Iconians, you don't make with the nice-nice, we make with the boom-boom, capisci?"
The Iconians are acting out of misplaced anger--none of the races in the galaxy we know today were around 200,000 years ago to have done anything to the Iconians, ever. Those races have long since exited the stage, but the Iconians persist in this madness. We're told that the Iconians were hyper-advanced technologically, but I've yet to see anything that makes me believe that they were hyper-intelligent or mature. (That being said, if they weren't presented that way, there would be no conflict.)
Immersion?
Not everyone in a war is on the front lines. Some never see battle at all.
From a practical standpoint, Cryptic can't re-do every asset in the game in order to reflect the ongoing war.
Why are there no in-quadrant Herald incursions like the Borg encounters? Because, based on the way the war is going at this point, you'd have to lose every time you went in--and then you'd just be complaining about that all the time.
There is still "the Other." To avoid having our characters (and the Federation, and the Romulans, and the Klingons--the latter two of which, I think, wouldn't so much care) commit genocide, the Other will provide a way out that doesn't require using the Krenim weapon. The Krenim weapon will be dismantled, the research destroyed, and everyone will walk away talking about how narrowly we all escaped doom and moral humiliation, etc.
Then--and only then--can we begin our war against the Pakled.
You know.....I've read this thread and actually gave it a honest thought....
The only thing I can really say at the end of the day is that beyond the Star Trek facade, STO has really little to do with the actual Star Trek from the shows. In terms of what made Star Trek be Star Trek on air, the substance - this game falls flat on it's face.
As one forum poster put it, I believe it was angrytarg, STO is Champions Online with a Star Trek skin. And that's about it.
(...)
As one forum poster put it, I believe it was angrytarg, STO is Champions Online with a Star Trek skin. And that's about it.
It feels good being remembered
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
While we're all here singing the songs of Federation primacy, Federation values, etc. etc., do keep in mind our "allies", who have a very big say in what happens here, both frankly don't give a dang about things like "genocide", "peaceful solutions", "moral high grounds", etc. etc.
And even some "members" of the Federation wouldn't care, either. What's to say that Nog doesn't still see massive latinum bar piles because of the time weapon, which is why he even mentioned it in the first place. Section 31 ring a bell too?
What's bugging me right now is why haven't I "heard" anything about what Temporal Instigations - I mean Investigations - has to say about this. Really. They "approved" creating a "Temporal Agent" to allow the "Admiral/Master" to time-warp to themselves and hand over the Tesseract of Deltadom. They're from a "side of the timeline" that has the aftermath of the weapon in it already - why can't they fill us in on what was done to get the universe to their point?
And it's not like the "peaceful" elements of Starfleet - myself, Quinn, etc. and the unpeaceful ones too (Drake did cover our backsides in the Drozana incident). I'm shocked they haven't chimed in or someone has gone forth to seek their wisdom and advice... Even if it was a "we tried, they're playing the 'we can't tell you' game"...
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
There's litterally STILL the preserver pods on the other planets that's NOT Lanas .... why the FRELL has nobody gone and tried to wake those baldies up yet?
We don't want what the Feds have. We want the equivalent. We want fairer treatment. Concern, desire, greed to some extent, and passionate belief that the enough people would buy KDF items to make it worth Cryptic's while.
There's litterally STILL the preserver pods on the other planets that's NOT Lanas .... why the FRELL has nobody gone and tried to wake those baldies up yet?
We don't happen to know they are there.
I mean we had to spend some time looking for the ones we found, so I don't think the player has a real good idea of where the other fridges full of preservers are.
While we're all here singing the songs of Federation primacy, Federation values, etc. etc., do keep in mind our "allies", who have a very big say in what happens here, both frankly don't give a dang about things like "genocide", "peaceful solutions", "moral high grounds", etc. etc.
The Romulan Republic will NOT be party to genocide either. If they gave in to the TRIBBLE for tat rage about the iconians being behind the deaths of billions of Romulans (and their planet) they'd be no better than the Star Empire jerks they have distinguished themselves from.
I know my Romulan and many other romulans she knows find thalaron weapons abhorrent, and yet you think they'd use something so much worse?
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
we are about to commit to an extreme last ditch attempt to save our galaxy, if the conditions of this war, were any different, would we even think about a genocide machine?
I'm still waiting for someone to prove that this is about genocide .
Or better yet ... , can genocide be preformed upon a people who's destiny was to have genocide preformed upon them anyway by others (200.000 years ago) ?
The Iconians were nearly eradicated by conventional means 200.000 years ago .
I don't understand your supposition that "we might have done that too" .
The time weapon does not work like that .
Also, Cryptic went out of their way to assure us that there are only a few Iconians left .
At first I thought that that was both silly (a dozen individuals want to rule the whole galaxy ??? Good luck with that ...) , but I also thought that it gave Cryptic a good excuse to lessen the overall Iconian threat (and just show the Herald threat instead) .
All in all, IMO, currently the only genocide we're contemplating is that of the Heralds , as the Iconians got their genocide by others a long time ago .
If we kill the last of the Iconians, we'll be killing the last of a dead end species (one that can no longer propagate / repopulate) .
we are about to commit to an extreme last ditch attempt to save our galaxy, if the conditions of this war, were any different, would we even think about a genocide machine?
I'm still waiting for someone to prove that this is about genocide .
Or better yet ... , can genocide be preformed upon a people who's destiny was to have genocide preformed upon them anyway by others (200.000 years ago) ?
The Iconians were nearly eradicated by conventional means 200.000 years ago .
I don't understand your supposition that "we might have done that too" .
The time weapon does not work like that .
Also, Cryptic went out of their way to assure us that there are only a few Iconians left .
At first I thought that that was both silly (a dozen individuals want to rule the whole galaxy ??? Good luck with that ...) , but I also thought that it gave Cryptic a good excuse to lessen the overall Iconian threat (and just show the Herald threat instead) .
All in all, IMO, currently the only genocide we're contemplating is that of the Heralds , as the Iconians got their genocide by others a long time ago .
If we kill the last of the Iconians, we'll be killing the last of a dead end species (one that can no longer propagate / repopulate) .
Still doesn't make it right. The romulan homeworld and plenty other words blew up, finishing the romulans off would still be genocide.
: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group
It has nothing to do with how many are left.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
What will you do then?? just let the iconians to wipe YOU from history? if the only way to survive is to wipe em out, knowing that they are an hostile xenophobe species do you really will sacrifice your species and a lot more to just not commit "genocide"? . As spock said, the needs of the many ....
The thing about genocide is that it is morally indefensible. If a person or group in literature of film is arguing for, or attempting it, you know they are the bad guys. Previously good people that are forced into a situation where genocide seems an option are a warning as to how easy it is to fall.
If given even the slight chance to do so, I will put the spacial charges on this stupid time eraser gun myself and blow it to bits. We can change time without resorting to the temporal equivalent of the deathstar.
: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group
It has nothing to do with how many are left.
Hundreds of billions across the galaxy VS roughly a dozen Iconians .
Yeeah ... , I count those numbers as somewhat relevant as to how many are left ... , which is why I mentioned the Heralds ... , who's extermination I would classify as genocide in the numbers game (unlike the Iconians, who are currently an evolutionary dead end) -- which still does not stop them from being genocidal themselves .
From a practical standpoint, Cryptic can't re-do every asset in the game in order to reflect the ongoing war.
Ah, but that's just it. They could have (in a clever way).
This is what I posted in another thread:
Heck, they just did a revamp of the entire galaxy map. Would it be so hard to copy/paste another, Level 60 only galaxy, into the game?
This Level 60 galaxy would open up after the events in 'Blood of the Ancients' and WOULD include burning worlds, destroyed Starbases, constant Iconian and Herald incursions (both in space and ground locations). Have it include all current Iconian War content (FEs, queues) PLUS Iconian Red Alerts, Deep Space Encounters AND live events, like Individual Iconians (M'Tara, T'ket, etc. - played by the Devs) showing up on ESD, New Romulus, damaged Qo'nos and other worlds and stations (Andoria, Vulcan, Bajor, Drozana, DS9, etc.) at completely random times (basically whenever a Dev or two felt evil - lol), laying waste to anyone, player or NPC there.
Make the Level 60 galaxy one big Battlezone that is automatically entered after completing 'Blood of the Ancients' and can't be left (you can't run away from THIS war). Your character stays there until the bitter end. (racking up Iconian Resistance points for everything they participate in)
THAT would give this conflict a true sense of real war, Iconian power, decimation, and desperation it truly needs.
I think this would give more weight behind using such a abhorrent, end-all weapon like the timeship. It would at least muddy the waters when it came down to making the decision to use it - because we would actually feel more like OUR existence was coming to an end and we MUST do something, no matter how desperate, because it really is US or THEM.
The way things feel right now (what war? feels more like a simple disagreement), it's pretty clear-cut that we should be trying any number of other avenues that have been blatantly ignored up to this point.
Comments
From what I recall of Year of Hell, when the Timeship targets a planet, it just removes all traces of any intelligent civilization. I assume from that that it basically reverts the planet to a state before the first intelligent life existed there by some means.
This probably wouldn't have any effect on the Preservers' actions, since they apparently seeded Earth some 4 billion years ago. Unless the Iconians are older than that, which I doubt. Being the first could simply mean that intelligent life developed on Iconia 500 million years ago, giving them 400 million years on the Voth.
Only if you've watched enough Star Trek, you know regardless of real life sensibilities, the Federation would still say NO.
Especially considering you run a very real risk of eliminating yourselves, the federation, and everything you know by toying with a weapon which is more dangerous TO YOU, OR ANYONE than the Iconians ever can be.
There's already been the debut of one or more very real alternatives than doing this TRIBBLE action. Why aren't we exploring those first?
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
I'd be disgusted by this valorization of genocide in any case, but it's especially odious in a game nominally based upon Star Trek. In Star Trek, choosing humanistic principles over expedience was always the right decision, and that's what I most loved about it.
To be clear, there've been plenty of Star Trek episodes in which someone in Starfleet chooses to abandon principle -- I think it was rare for an admiral to show up and not try to do that -- so I can certainly see a plot line in which the Alliance considers using the Krenim Weapon. What troubles me is that it seems as if Nog and everyone else has just zipped right along the rails without even pausing to consider the implications.
If you take the Iconians out of the equation, then you create a power vacuum and someone or something else will always come around to try and take it's place.
Still waiting to be able to use forum titles
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
But i think it will be that the remaining two Iconians summoned by their defeated sister will make an all out offensive destroying many worlds, attacking the homeworlds of those they feel are to blame, and taking less of a war mentality an more of a genocide method now. Than when we get the time ship we can choose to take our several different places like iconia, the herald sphere, the main flagships that the lead Iconians are on, which might lead to bad ending even to where we travel back in time to see the fall of Iconia along with how bad a choice it was to kill the Iconian we did an somehow using the temperol ship to reverse the death of that Iconian. (i cann't remember her name right now.)
And we are not going down in history, we are REWRITING it, which is even better
But Lore-Wise, this is a total no-go. But well, this game only uses Star Trek for asthetics, didnt you realize that already?
If we don't remove the Iconians from the timeline entirely, but instead remove something smaller that slows down their war efforts, we can get around the genocide, erase the events of the current war, and still have the Iconians around for later. Say if we erase a lifeless planet that they used as a factory or staging area or other place of strategic importance. Setting them back 40 years or so would put them clear out of the way of STO and we could hand-wave all of this unpleasantness away.
But... I agree it is much more likely that they will have us just use the nuclear option. As has been said already, we kill so many things in this game it pretty much doesn't matter anymore.
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
they cant use timetravel, any effects they want to implement have to be done directly through the course of time as it passes normally. if our coalition is responsible for the destruction of iconia 200,000yrs ago.. then they have been moving the pieces in a very long game of chess to get things to this point. If this is the case, in order to save their world and preserve the prime time line, they can't afford to divert our incursion, only the outcome of it.
we are about to commit to an extreme last ditch attempt to save our galaxy, if the conditions of this war, were any different, would we even think about a genocide machine? no, i really dont think we would, i dont think temporal intel would let us. looking at it with a dispassionate eye, the iconians have been working dogmatically towards a very specific plan, and until we killed M'Tara, that plan did not involve destroying this galaxy and everyone in it (aside from maybe the krenim) unlike our idea of removing them from ever existing. 100's of thousands of years of iconian influence removed.. the good and the bad. we don't know enough to understand what this is really all about, to have considered using this krenim weapon was ahhh, but now?
aside from a word here of there we have no idea what or how the iconians were before, we do have evidence that shows they were adored by the species they worked closest with, but why they were originally attacked, we dont know, we don't even know who or what set everything on its course.. i mean, had there been no war 200000yrs ago, and the iconians were a benevolent species, who would have gained from their destruction in the 1st place? what would they have gained, and why?
if the iconians are a product of past events, and we are in any way linked to those past event, then we are simply at the closing stages of a very long chess games. im still confused at there being no dialogue option for us with M'Tara, at any point during that fight, how many federation officers would have stared blankly at her during dialogue and said " " in return? even a klingon would have something to say.. even if it was a little something before striking a killing blow.. but to just stand and watch her die in total silence.. nah, thats pants
diplomacy should always be our 1st option, and it must remain an option till the bitter end. have we even tried talking to them yet? apart from some dude in a pair his oggs, with worg grease down his front and a blade in his hand.
I suggest exploring the other options which have already been presented as sidepoints in the storyline.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
The Krenim will someday use this weapon against us, and we will deserve it for being so desperate to trust a scorpion.
The Krenim weapon hasn't been used yet. It may never be used. If you have knowledge that the weapon has been used, Starfleet DTI would like to have a talk with you.
Now, my own thoughts:
The Krenim weapon may be usable for a Mutual Assured Destruction ploy--"hey, Iconians, you don't make with the nice-nice, we make with the boom-boom, capisci?"
The Iconians are acting out of misplaced anger--none of the races in the galaxy we know today were around 200,000 years ago to have done anything to the Iconians, ever. Those races have long since exited the stage, but the Iconians persist in this madness. We're told that the Iconians were hyper-advanced technologically, but I've yet to see anything that makes me believe that they were hyper-intelligent or mature. (That being said, if they weren't presented that way, there would be no conflict.)
Immersion?
There is still "the Other." To avoid having our characters (and the Federation, and the Romulans, and the Klingons--the latter two of which, I think, wouldn't so much care) commit genocide, the Other will provide a way out that doesn't require using the Krenim weapon. The Krenim weapon will be dismantled, the research destroyed, and everyone will walk away talking about how narrowly we all escaped doom and moral humiliation, etc.
Then--and only then--can we begin our war against the Pakled.
The only thing I can really say at the end of the day is that beyond the Star Trek facade, STO has really little to do with the actual Star Trek from the shows. In terms of what made Star Trek be Star Trek on air, the substance - this game falls flat on it's face.
As one forum poster put it, I believe it was angrytarg, STO is Champions Online with a Star Trek skin. And that's about it.
It feels good being remembered
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And even some "members" of the Federation wouldn't care, either. What's to say that Nog doesn't still see massive latinum bar piles because of the time weapon, which is why he even mentioned it in the first place. Section 31 ring a bell too?
What's bugging me right now is why haven't I "heard" anything about what Temporal Instigations - I mean Investigations - has to say about this. Really. They "approved" creating a "Temporal Agent" to allow the "Admiral/Master" to time-warp to themselves and hand over the Tesseract of Deltadom. They're from a "side of the timeline" that has the aftermath of the weapon in it already - why can't they fill us in on what was done to get the universe to their point?
And it's not like the "peaceful" elements of Starfleet - myself, Quinn, etc. and the unpeaceful ones too (Drake did cover our backsides in the Drozana incident). I'm shocked they haven't chimed in or someone has gone forth to seek their wisdom and advice... Even if it was a "we tried, they're playing the 'we can't tell you' game"...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
We don't happen to know they are there.
I mean we had to spend some time looking for the ones we found, so I don't think the player has a real good idea of where the other fridges full of preservers are.
The Romulan Republic will NOT be party to genocide either. If they gave in to the TRIBBLE for tat rage about the iconians being behind the deaths of billions of Romulans (and their planet) they'd be no better than the Star Empire jerks they have distinguished themselves from.
I know my Romulan and many other romulans she knows find thalaron weapons abhorrent, and yet you think they'd use something so much worse?
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
I'm still waiting for someone to prove that this is about genocide .
Or better yet ... , can genocide be preformed upon a people who's destiny was to have genocide preformed upon them anyway by others (200.000 years ago) ?
The Iconians were nearly eradicated by conventional means 200.000 years ago .
I don't understand your supposition that "we might have done that too" .
The time weapon does not work like that .
Also, Cryptic went out of their way to assure us that there are only a few Iconians left .
At first I thought that that was both silly (a dozen individuals want to rule the whole galaxy ??? Good luck with that ...) , but I also thought that it gave Cryptic a good excuse to lessen the overall Iconian threat (and just show the Herald threat instead) .
All in all, IMO, currently the only genocide we're contemplating is that of the Heralds , as the Iconians got their genocide by others a long time ago .
If we kill the last of the Iconians, we'll be killing the last of a dead end species (one that can no longer propagate / repopulate) .
Still doesn't make it right. The romulan homeworld and plenty other words blew up, finishing the romulans off would still be genocide.
Full Definition of GENOCIDE
: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group
It has nothing to do with how many are left.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
If given even the slight chance to do so, I will put the spacial charges on this stupid time eraser gun myself and blow it to bits. We can change time without resorting to the temporal equivalent of the deathstar.
Hundreds of billions across the galaxy VS roughly a dozen Iconians .
Yeeah ... , I count those numbers as somewhat relevant as to how many are left ... , which is why I mentioned the Heralds ... , who's extermination I would classify as genocide in the numbers game (unlike the Iconians, who are currently an evolutionary dead end) -- which still does not stop them from being genocidal themselves .
Ah, but that's just it. They could have (in a clever way).
This is what I posted in another thread:
Heck, they just did a revamp of the entire galaxy map. Would it be so hard to copy/paste another, Level 60 only galaxy, into the game?
This Level 60 galaxy would open up after the events in 'Blood of the Ancients' and WOULD include burning worlds, destroyed Starbases, constant Iconian and Herald incursions (both in space and ground locations). Have it include all current Iconian War content (FEs, queues) PLUS Iconian Red Alerts, Deep Space Encounters AND live events, like Individual Iconians (M'Tara, T'ket, etc. - played by the Devs) showing up on ESD, New Romulus, damaged Qo'nos and other worlds and stations (Andoria, Vulcan, Bajor, Drozana, DS9, etc.) at completely random times (basically whenever a Dev or two felt evil - lol), laying waste to anyone, player or NPC there.
Make the Level 60 galaxy one big Battlezone that is automatically entered after completing 'Blood of the Ancients' and can't be left (you can't run away from THIS war). Your character stays there until the bitter end. (racking up Iconian Resistance points for everything they participate in)
THAT would give this conflict a true sense of real war, Iconian power, decimation, and desperation it truly needs.
I think this would give more weight behind using such a abhorrent, end-all weapon like the timeship. It would at least muddy the waters when it came down to making the decision to use it - because we would actually feel more like OUR existence was coming to an end and we MUST do something, no matter how desperate, because it really is US or THEM.
The way things feel right now (what war? feels more like a simple disagreement), it's pretty clear-cut that we should be trying any number of other avenues that have been blatantly ignored up to this point.
arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline/#/discussion/1203368/pve-content-a-list-of-gamewide-polishing-pass-suggestions