Why isn't this being discussed?

commanderkassy

I know that some characters show reservations about using the temporal weapon, but it's all in the context of "what if we change the timeline too much" etc.

But um.. why isn't anyone discussing the fact that this is an instant genocide gun?

Don't try to tell me that "if they never existed it's not genocide" because it's a false argument, you're still taking action to wipe out an entire species.. it's worse because you wipe out their contributions too.

I know that things are really desperate... and I'm not saying the gun shouldn't be used if it's an "us or them only" situation, but why isn't anyone even talking about this weapon for what it really is?

We should be seeing this debate for what it really is. It feels out of character to see all those TV show alumni just happily skipping off merry-do to build a genocide weapon and wipe out the Iconians. Why isn't the debate being shown? Too much effort to write?

These episodes are enraging me because not one character has even voiced concern about this beyond "well what if it hurts us more than helps us"?

gradii

I thought it goes without saying. But you make an excellent point pointing that out.

Remember how in TNG, the crew of the enterprise had a chance to wipe out the borg with a virus, but decided AGAINST eliminating an existential threat, which very nearly assimilated earth a couple times.

One thing which occured to me, is maybe your character doesn't really understand what exactly the weapon does, the thought of genocide being SO abhorrent, cognitive dissonance keeps them from putting 2 and 2 together.

like, "well we can just remove the iconians evilness from the timeline!"

legendarylycan

oh, my main fed character understands EXACTLY what the weapon does, so no dice for me there​​

lsegn

It's not genocide because they never existed.

questerius

gradii wrote: »

I thought it goes without saying. But you make an excellent point pointing that out.

Remember how in TNG, the crew of the enterprise had a chance to wipe out the borg with a virus, but decided AGAINST eliminating an existential threat, which very nearly assimilated earth a couple times.

Would the captain who's body count by now does not classify him/her as a homicidal maniac please raise his/her hand?
Aren't we at the point where the body count is nothing but a statistic?

But to answer the OP, the question is raised and it is projected that the krenim ship is the only hope for survival.
Personally i dislike the time ship plot because it takes the easy way out, but i like the fact that it will finally end the phoney war against the iconians. I'm totally missing immersion so can't be too bothered by temporal incursions.
​​

anodynes

It's only an instant genocide gun when used on a planet, like if it were used on Iconia. If used on a ship, or let's say the Herald Sphere, it just eliminates that thing, and anyone in it, from ever existing.

We don't know what will be the ultimate target, but even then, we also don't know what the unintended consequences will be, but you know there will be some. I'd predict this thing makes things much worse, and that it ends up much like the end of Year of Hell, where the only solution is the overload it to hit the reset button.

qziqza

lsegn wrote: »

It's not genocide because they never existed.

we are Considering an action that may destroy an entire species, the manner of that destruction matters not, it still amounts to the same thing, the time line only changes for those not on the ship with the weapon, so they will have existed to us and we will have destroyed them.. genocide

iconians

I never discuss it because temporal discussions always give me a headache.

qziqza

questerius wrote: »

gradii wrote: »

I thought it goes without saying. But you make an excellent point pointing that out.

Remember how in TNG, the crew of the enterprise had a chance to wipe out the borg with a virus, but decided AGAINST eliminating an existential threat, which very nearly assimilated earth a couple times.

Would the captain who's body count by now does not classify him/her as a homicidal maniac please raise his/her hand?
Aren't we at the point where the body count is nothing but a statistic?

But to answer the OP, the question is raised and it is projected that the krenim ship is the only hope for survival.
Personally i dislike the time ship plot because it takes the easy way out, but i like the fact that it will finally end the phoney war against the iconians. I'm totally missing immersion so can't be too bothered by temporal incursions.
​​

raises hand.. if they wanted to eliminate us they would have done so already, especially with the destructive capability those ships have.. they'd portal directly into our home world's atmospheres and erase us. in the preserves enclave m'tara enters and totally ignores us, talks calmly to the preserver of taking no satisfaction, and then of duty and right. if it turns out we are those who originally attacked iconia 200,000yrs ago, then they have some justification for what they are doing, in fact if that's the case then t'kets anger and bloodlust is totally justified.

the krenim are a far bigger concern, they can wipe everything out in an instant without concern.. I'll bet the shielding seven ends up designing for the ship can be retrofitted to their last surviving planet. won't matter what they do then, as long as all the krenim are either planet side or on that ship they will be unaffected by the weapon. the iconians may even have already been aware of this, their main focus was to either eliminate the krenim or flush them out for this event. if the one is from our time, or even our character or possibly l'miran, then the iconians, even without time travel could be appraised of what was going to happen, but it required certain measures to get it there.. quite amusing if that's the case, they are almost acting as a temporal intelligence group but from outside the temporal window.

zobovor

To put things in the correct perspective , right now it's the Iconians who are planning / acting out genocides on multiple Milky Way worlds (ask the Krenim for more info on that) .

As to our actions against the Iconians via a temporal weapon -- it has not been clear or confirmed what our actions will actually be or whom they will effect .
For example , if we wipe out the 11 remaining Iconians ... , that's not genocide, but an elimination of an endangered species .

OTOTH if we somehow alter time and put a halt to the Iconian evolution, then the Heralds will be changed forever , and may / may not continue to exist .

All in all "genocide" happened to the Iconians 200.000 years ago .
We can either finish the job or erase their existence .
But considering that the Preservers and the Iconians had a role in how the Milky Way was shaped politically , I happen to think that the simple removal of the Iconians from the timeline may affect the "universe as we know it" much more then anyone can predict ... , and for example Voyager's whole flight home might have ended up looking totally different ... , as the whole Delta Quadrant will look different politically without the Iconian presence .

markhawkman

Actually... couldn't you just shut down the ship to undo it's changes? IIRC it wasn't really needed to make it explode in Voyager, just take the temporal core offline.... which Janeway did with a kamikaze attack.

legendarylycan

no, because shutting the core down won't cause a temporal incursion, unless it's a catastrophic shutdown - i. e. it gets blown up​​

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ltminns

Are we going to Andromeda? I see no indication of that. Hence their current 'homeworld' would not be Krenimized.

Well since my future self already visited me to get me to become a Delta Recruit, don't you think that it may be possible if everything all went to hell in a handbasket I could do it again to tell me to stop this foolishness?

qziqza

zobovor wrote: »

To put things in the correct perspective , right now it's the Iconians who are planning / acting out genocides on multiple Milky Way worlds (ask the Krenim for more info on that) .

As to our actions against the Iconians via a temporal weapon -- it has not been clear or confirmed what our actions will actually be or whom they will effect .
For example , if we wipe out the 11 remaining Iconians ... , that's not genocide, but an elimination of an endangered species .

OTOTH if we somehow alter time and put a halt to the Iconian evolution, then the Heralds will be changed forever , and may / may not continue to exist .

All in all "genocide" happened to the Iconians 200.000 years ago .
We can either finish the job or erase their existence .
But considering that the Preservers and the Iconians had a role in how the Milky Way was shaped politically , I happen to think that the simple removal of the Iconians from the timeline may affect the "universe as we know it" much more then anyone can predict ... , and for example Voyager's whole flight home might have ended up looking totally different ... , as the whole Delta Quadrant will look different politically without the Iconian presence .

they may be acting out genocide on the krenim, but I don't think they are acting without a reason, a very old or young depending on the way you look at it.

the krenim don't n care what they change if it suits there purpose, they are not willing to let existence form of its own volition., how is what they do any different to the iconians.? I trust the inonians more, there was a reason for them to exist with the abilities they have. possibly created for that very duty to look after the galaxies.. how is we are content plating any worse than what they are? we can argue it's them or us, but if that's the same from their perspective. the fact they have been holding back says something else.. I think nothing of swatting bugs, they are an irritation and they are plentiful, what meaning do you put on something that lives for but a moment? l'miran calls us sentient in time in a bottle, no insult, no venom but interest, maybe even compassion.., for a fly! well were screwed now.. we are now creatures to l'miran and t'ket is off the short chain.

gradii

I say go back in time the normal way and save M'Tara then ally with the Iconians against the greater threat, the Krenim.

zobovor

qziqza wrote: »

the krenim don't n care what they change if it suits there purpose, they are not willing to let existence form of its own volition., how is what they do any different to the iconians.? I trust the inonians more, there was a reason for them to exist with the abilities they have. possibly created for that very duty to look after the galaxies.. how is we are content plating any worse than what they are?

We've had other energy based life forms superior to our own (Q , the Organians, the Metrons) and none of them harbored a desire conquer and rule our entire galaxy . None of them set species against species to kill each other so they could conquer us more easily .

And I gave the Krenim just as an example . The Vaduuar have killed a lot of ppl, just like the Undine and the KDF and the Romulans and the Federation too ... -- all as pawns ... , as the Iconians pulled the strings .

You say that you trust the Iconians more then the Krneim ?
Good for you .
I'll just remind you that none of this loss of life would have happened if the Iconians simply stayed away .
As to the Krenim, they would not have thought to build this ship if the Vaduuar and then the Heralds didn't come knocking .

Good job blaming the victims .

maina

After the time-ship allows us victory against the Iconians,


I'm kinda thinking we don't really need the pakled race either.......​​

themetalstickman

It actually is being alluded to in-game, hence the reason why the Alliance attempted the assault portrayed in Broken Circle. No one wanted to use the timeship weapon without first trying all other options.​​

gradii

themetalstickman wrote: »

It actually is being alluded to in-game, hence the reason why the Alliance attempted the assault portrayed in Broken Circle. No one wanted to use the timeship weapon without first trying all other options.​​

My character doesn't want to either. She's smart enough to see the writing on the wall. They are building a threat which is greater than the iconians by a large margin, and she wants no part of it, now or ever.

She's also smart enough and experienced enough to be able to think of several viable alternatives, some of the ones I've mentioned previously.

Ya don't need to break time to change time.

simeion1

lsegn wrote: »

It's not genocide because they never existed.

It is like a redacted dev comment. If it is not there anymore it never existed.

gradii

simeion1 wrote: »

lsegn wrote: »

It's not genocide because they never existed.

It is like a redacted dev comment. If it is not there anymore it never existed.

flash525

It was actually kind of explained in-game; The needs of the many (us and the rest of the Galaxy) outweigh the needs of the few (Iconians). For us to survive (the many) the few must perish.

foolishowl

The OP is right. This really is outrageous. There are worse things than defeat in a war. Winning by such means is one.

Generally, STO has been sorely lacking in respect for the spirit of Star Trek, but for the protagonists to accept committing genocide as a strategic option? That's no longer Star Trek at all.

kitsunesnout

flash525 wrote: »

It was actually kind of explained in-game; The needs of the many (us and the rest of the Galaxy) outweigh the needs of the few (Iconians). For us to survive (the many) the few must perish.

I think it's really a horrible saying if one thinks about it, that has become something that it shouldn't have. Doing horrible dirty deeds to a few for the sake of many is never right. No disrespect to the man that uttered those words, but I don't think it was foreseen the full consequences of that saying when applied to many of the situations and contexts it is applied to. it can be used to justify many heinous things that corrupt the purpose of the many along the way.

Unknown

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kabilar

The Iconians were the first children of the preservers. When we remove the Iconians from the timeline there is a big chance that the Preservers will never sow humanoid DNA in the galaxy.

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kabilar

fulleatherjacket wrote: »

kabilar wrote: »

How did you come to that conclusion?

Very simply, the Preservers never developed their first children. Who says they still want to develop children?

When the Preservers still decide to spread human DNA, it is unlikely that the timeline will not exist as it is now.

koraheaglecry

Honestly theres so much wrong with this storyline that its hard to even look at this and be upset. I only recently got to play through the Mission before the latest one thanks to bugs. And I had to shake my head at the cookie cutter mustachioed bad guy Iconians. The fact that the Krenim were so quick to hand over their tech to what amounted to complete strangers with little to no diplomacy. They were basically begging us to take it. Or the fact that Captain Kagran sends essentially the remnants of the Alliances Armada on a Suicide Mission because he was still convinced, this far into the fight, that conventional space combat would work against the Iconians superior numbers and technology....And some how the guy still has a job after the retreat. The guy would be removed from Command in any real world Military. There was no reasonable explanation for why we would launch what was our final line of defense to do this....Nog had just got done saying the TimeShip was still weeks from completion. It wasnt even a 'Oh man these guys are making a mistake' moment. It was a 'Why!?!WHY!?!' moment. They were too lazy to even tell us why....Just hamfist the 'we're desperate for this genocide' into the next mission so they can wrap up the Iconian arc and move on to whatever else they want to do.

This whole storyline has been some of the worst storytelling theyve done. So Im not shocked that they want to us to commit genocide. Although I get the feeling the circle of Iconians we see in the mission before this last one is all thats left of the Iconians after the war 200,000 years ago.

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