One thing I've noticed (and that someone else mentioned further up the thread) is that everyone's assuming that we are going to use the timeship to annihilate the Iconians themselves. That isn't necessarily the case. Noye was talking about running simulations to choose a good incursion to perform. I don't think anyone thinks wiping out the Iconians is a good incursion; as many of the rest of you have said, too much of galactic history would depend on it. Any NPC objections to the weapon are regarding meddling with time, not genocide. That suggests to me that wiping out the Iconians isn't anyone's intention, otherwise someone probably would have mentioned it. IIRC, no one in-game has said anything about using the weapon to destroy the Iconians directly, that is only something we, the players, have inferred.
Just my 2 EC.
Then maybe they should explain that.
We, the viewers of the show, saw it primarily used for one purpose - wiping out species. At least that left the biggest impression with us. It has that capability. So if they don't plan to use it like that, and hence, there is no moral issue here, then maybe they should tell us that instead of letting us assume their plan to defeat the Iconians once and for all with a weapon capable of destroying a species once and for all doesn't involve doing so?
Nah, it's selective recall. While there were 6 races that Annorax wiped out with the weapon ship, he apparently preferred to erase smaller targets, such as comets...
It's good to remember that Annorax had been flying around in that thing for CENTURIES....
Yes, I remember, if you pay any attention to the way I worded it. Which clearly you did not. My point is that the wiping out of species left the biggest impression. It showed what a terrible weapon this thing can really be. And even then, they showed that wiping out the wrong comet could have serious consequences.
♪ I'm going around not in circles but in spirographs.
It's pretty much this hard to keep just one timeline intact. ♪
diplomacy should always be our 1st option, and it must remain an option till the bitter end. have we even tried talking to them yet? apart from some dude in a pair his oggs, with worg grease down his front and a blade in his hand.
Diplomacy isn't an option, you can't talk terms to a species who believes you are not worth talking too, hell, until recently they didn't even consider us worth the time to actively hunt and kill us all.
really, and has anyone tried? how about approaching them on their terms, showing some deference and respect, regardless of what is going on, they are an ancient species, there biggest beef with us seems to be a lack of respect. but no.. rather than tipping the hat, taking a knee and showing respect, that would maybe at least open up a dialogue, our answer is.. death kill maime destroy them.
"the needs of the many out way the needs of the few, or the one.."
well, i think risking personal instant obliteration, by taking a knee and showing proper deference, and trying to open up a dialogue to save everything, is worth the chance.. would that not be a proper use of that philosophy?
Because you totally negotiate with the ants in your back yard before you break out the ant spray or call an exterminator, sure you may put up with them for a while, kill a few when they were in your way, let your kids stamp on them for fun, but now the ants are in the kitchen stealing food and it's time to get rid of them.
Significant Difference:
No ant has ever talked to me. And I've never been able to say something to an ant that implied she could make out my words.
Even Q recognized that we we were somewhat intelligent, and he communicated with us. And he's omnipotent. He really could crush us, and we'd have no chance to fight back.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I think this is how my "final" solution to the story would be:
Step 1) Travel back in time to the Solanae Dyson Sphere and sabotage it, so it gets abandonded by the Solanae and whoever else was there.
Step 2) Travel back in time to the destruction of Romulus, and use the Iconian Gateway tech to evacuate the Romulan population aboard the Solanae Sphere.
Step 3) Travel back in time to Iconia at the time of the bombing, and evacuate the Iconians to the Solanae Sphere. Since the Iconians don't take too well to time travel, park the sphere in a safe spot.
Step 4) 200,000 years later, discover the time-shifted copy of the Solanae sphere.
Step 5) Contact the Romulan/Iconian descendents and find out the only one left is "The One", the rest long advanced to a higher lifeform, and unite him with the (broken) circle of Iconians what wage war on us.
Step 6) Peace, Rainbows and Unicorns, Klingons and Romulans living together in harmony, Q organizing the party of the millenium.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
If 4 fails go back to 1 and get the Prophets to magic the Iconians away.
If 5 fails try Trelane, or the Nacene, or Gorgan, or God, or the Pah-wraiths, etc.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
as yet.. the iconians have had no interaction with us that wasn't in the form of a gun in the face.. if they are basing their opinion of us on the only interactions they have had with species in this galaxy, consider who they have dealt with, and the motivation of those people.
Sorry, but that's not exactly true .
One of the Iconians made a grand appearance in the Klingon Great Hall with many Klingon, Federation and Romulan dignitaries present .
If anything , that was a golden opportunity to make First Contact .
Remember how that turned out ?
I seem to recall a few roasted Klingon senators.
When M'Tara showed up in the Great Hall, that was an ultimatum. The Klingon Council didn't attempt to harm her; they merely dissented, and for that, she killed them. That suggests diplomacy was never an option. Remember, the Iconians think they are gods. Gods do not negotiate, they make demands and they expect to be obeyed.
Errr, I haz starship .
Would arrogant glowy would-be-gods like a starship ?
No, noooo ... , I iz not stealing proverbial starship joke from Shatnertrek ... , I iz ... just pointing out that the last Iconian we killed literraly died because she didn't want to let go of her ride ... , err ... starship .
I played it as well. Just as house of pegh before - it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Once again we get the "super desperate times" thing, but it doesn't feel like it at all. It's the same pew pew, boom boom as it has always been. I know we're working towards some kind of great finale, but I don't see it. The "shoot first, ask questions never" approach belongs to STO, I don't question that anymore. I just understand it is a arcade action shooter game and we need a thin veil of story to justify the numerous stages of shootiness. But even in this context I am tired of all the "it's getting worse! Oh, the evil! It's winning!" and we are in-lore constantly making it worse as well. But I also don't expect our player characters to be smarter because... well, I still like to point out that we needed Kurland to tell us not to touch the flashy plasma charges or else we get ouchy...
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
well, I still like to point out that we needed Kurland to tell us not to touch the flashy plasma charges or else we get ouchy...
you point out wrong. HE thinks we need him to say that.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
Nah, it's selective recall. While there were 6 races that Annorax wiped out with the weapon ship, he apparently preferred to erase smaller targets, such as comets...
It's good to remember that Annorax had been flying around in that thing for CENTURIES....
He could have preferred to erase single molecules. Doesn't change the fact his character was a mass murderer on a galactic scale. Annorax still erased 6 thriving races from existence. His target preference doesn't change that.
I was making no judgments as to Annorax's actions. I was simply pointing out that using the weapon does not require use to zap the Iconians with it.
The notion of "killing" people by altering time so that they don't stop existing, but instead never existed, has some interesting implications.
If we are to take the words that are used seriously, then it can't be wrong, in the ordinary sense, to delete somone from time, since you aren't harming him, since he never existed, and you can't harm somone who doesn't exist.
What I mean is, there is a difference between thinking "he existed and then time was altered and he never existed" and the actual meaning, which is "he never existed." You can't use the word 'then,' because If he never existed, he could never be part of any meaningful idea or sentence expressing the relationship meant by the word 'then.'
So, as long as we really mean that the time-weapon works the way we say it does, it can't be wrong to delete whole populations by causing them to never exist.
Merely preventing people that don't exist from coming into existence is not the same as murder. If it were, all sorts of perfectly innocent actions, like choosing to have kids with one person instead of with someone else, would be murder. This is because a huge number of future people will only come into existence if a certain specific egg and sperm come together and eventually become a person. You'll have kids one way or another, but those kids will be different people based on any number of choices you make, with one choice preventing the outcome of all the others.
The question of whether or not this is right or wrong can be answered by asking yourself a simple question. Would you want to be erased and never exist?
If I don't exist, I can't object, though. And what about the people that might come into existence when I don't exist?
When Annorex changed the timelines, he didn't just wipe out some species - he also caused a lot of people into existence that didn't exist because some other species occupied their space. A colony that was never founded by Species X can be a colony founded by Species Y.
If you commit a crime but are never caught, are you still guilty?
Sure. But does it matter for your guilt whether you commit a robbery or an assault?
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
But they were real. To the people in the ship they saw a planet full of people, and hit a button that made them all go away. Other people might never know you did it, but you willfully removed an entire civilization.
That's where it gets lazy/stupid/typically bad voyager writing. If they were really made to never exist, the people on the ship couldn't remember them.
I did specify, remmeber, that what I was saying was "if we take it seriously," not the third rate trash hacks who wrote the voyager episodes.
I suppose if you want to stretch a point, you could say that since the people never existed, the time crew had -false- memories of them. Since remembering something that didn't actually exist is specifically what -false- memory means. Imagine how much more interesting the episodes would have been if, over time, the time crew came to simply -forget- things. A time crew that "exterminated" civilizations and then simply forgot about it. That would have been a more compelling, if still sloppy, allegory for the banality of evil. Instead, stupid plot hole cartoon villain.
But again, we were dealing with voyager writers...
Truely, an interesting idea - a group of time travellers that eradicate entire civilizations but don't know about it, because you can't remember things that never existed...
The Year of Hell posited that there was a way to protect oneself from the changes to the timeline caused by the Krenim ship.
But what would that really mean? It seems to me that the different timelines exist in some kind of continuum or meta-universe. The changes made by the timeship might be more akin to moving from one possible reality to another. But if that was the case, then the races were not really eradicated- they existed, but in a different "place". Maybe he time ship can't travel back to that place, but the place is still there. So... There is no real genocide happening... Unless perhaps the Krenim ship does travel to a point in this alternate reality where the race would come into being, stop that from happening, and then fast forwards through time to the result. But even then, genocide is debatable - any action a space-faring civilization might take on a world could hinder development of life - or cause it.
But, of course, once we have something like this, it seems that there is a "universe of universes"; a multiverse or a universe. Everything possible exists in it.. But - if travel between them is possible, that seems to suggest you can also have different possibilities for travel routes, which might mean that that there is also a universe of universe of universes, that contains the different possibility of time travel routes between universes. And so on and so forth. It's turtles all the way down.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
But they were real. To the people in the ship they saw a planet full of people, and hit a button that made them all go away. Other people might never know you did it, but you willfully removed an entire civilization.
Not only that, for you YOU still erased them, you're on that ship. and that action you took was wrong, even if the result can't be.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
That's where it gets lazy/stupid/typically bad voyager writing. If they were really made to never exist, the people on the ship couldn't remember them.
I did specify, remmeber, that what I was saying was "if we take it seriously," not the third rate trash hacks who wrote the voyager episodes.
I suppose if you want to stretch a point, you could say that since the people never existed, the time crew had -false- memories of them. Since remembering something that didn't actually exist is specifically what -false- memory means. Imagine how much more interesting the episodes would have been if, over time, the time crew came to simply -forget- things. A time crew that "exterminated" civilizations and then simply forgot about it. That would have been a more compelling, if still sloppy, allegory for the banality of evil. Instead, stupid plot hole cartoon villain.
But again, we were dealing with voyager writers...
Truely, an interesting idea - a group of time travellers that eradicate entire civilizations but don't know about it, because you can't remember things that never existed...
The Year of Hell posited that there was a way to protect oneself from the changes to the timeline caused by the Krenim ship.
But what would that really mean? It seems to me that the different timelines exist in some kind of continuum or meta-universe. The changes made by the timeship might be more akin to moving from one possible reality to another. But if that was the case, then the races were not really eradicated- they existed, but in a different "place". Maybe he time ship can't travel back to that place, but the place is still there. So... There is no real genocide happening... Unless perhaps the Krenim ship does travel to a point in this alternate reality where the race would come into being, stop that from happening, and then fast forwards through time to the result. But even then, genocide is debatable - any action a space-faring civilization might take on a world could hinder development of life - or cause it.
But, of course, once we have something like this, it seems that there is a "universe of universes"; a multiverse or a universe. Everything possible exists in it.. But - if travel between them is possible, that seems to suggest you can also have different possibilities for travel routes, which might mean that that there is also a universe of universe of universes, that contains the different possibility of time travel routes between universes. And so on and so forth. It's turtles all the way down.
What it means is, lazy writers, squandered potential, a blight on Star Trek.
Well, we are talking about Voyager, that's a given.
The Year of Hell should have been the concept for a whole season. Maybe ideally without the time travel shenengians, or with some internally consistent one or whatever.
I wonder, are there any time travel stories about "fake memory implanatation" devices? INstead of actually travelling through time, they just implant memories of an alternate timeline that you averted...
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
It's called a temporal paradox for a reason Druk....
Anyways intentionally eradicating an entire race is genocide, regardless of how you do it. It's a matter of motive. Deciding "I want to kill every Zahl who has ever lived." THAT is what is wrong. The end result of your actions is irrelevant.
I recall that near the end of "Uneasy Allies", Sela asserts that the Iconians can't endure time travel because "it destroys their minds". If Cryptic leverages from this bit of dialog, then it's not difficult to envision a number of possibilities without having to resort to unbelievable whimsy. If their minds are "destroyed" by time travel, they would cease to be a threat to anyone, without further intervention by "the Other". In any scenario, it would be expedient for the Krenim weapon to implode after use, to avert future misuse of the technology.
For example, the Krenim weapon could be used to send the Iconians back in time (pick a historically calm period in recent galactic history), perhaps before their intrusion in the Federation/Klingon Empire peace accord. In this case, several Klingon warriors would still be alive, and the common enemies are once again the Undine & the Borg.
Or, the Iconians could be sent back even further, before they were using the Undine as a proxy to attack the Federation & KDF; in this case, there may not even have been a compelling reason for a peace accord between the old foes, and we go back to the old status quo of fighting for control of our own galaxy.
If "the Other" invtervene to save the Iconians once again, it could be just in time to prevent their extinction, after devastating losses, in which case, it is possible that we might find ourselves meeting "the Other" face-to-face. Judging by the fact that they have not found a compelling reason to encounter the "lesser" sentients in the galaxy, they may not be hostile at the meeting, and possibly even conciliatory ("...sorry, we didn't think our brethren would go back to their old ways...").
The larger view is what effect these plot twists might have on future gameplay; if the Iconians are once again relegated to history, would the Iconian Resistance rep & all its hardware also vanish? (This would be a welcome method IMO to partially reverse some power creep.) How far back do the Iconians disappear, and what other races flourish unexpectedly because of the new timeline? The Iconian war currently overshadows all other game content, so future expansion of the game will directly impacted by how the war is resolved.
Expendables Fleet: Andrew - Bajoran Fed Engineer Ken'taura - Rom/Fed Scientist Gwyllim - Human Fed Delta Tac Savik - Vulcan Fed Temporal Sci Dahar Masters Fleet: Alphal'Fa - Alien KDF Engineer Qun'pau - Rom/KDF Engineer D'nesh - Orion KDF Scientist Ghen'khan - Liberated KDF Tac Welcome to StarBug Online - to boldly Bug where no bug has been before!
STO player since November 2013
But they were real. To the people in the ship they saw a planet full of people, and hit a button that made them all go away. Other people might never know you did it, but you willfully removed an entire civilization.
But they were real. To the people in the ship they saw a planet full of people, and hit a button that made them all go away. Other people might never know you did it, but you willfully removed an entire civilization.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
you all forgot M'TARA IS DEAD the Iconians don't have a leader now and remember the reason we won the dominion war is because of the founders illness Dukat going crazy and lost 2800 dominion ships
Why are we assuming wholesale genocide/species removal? Why not a more tailored strike (as indicated by dialogue in Broken Circle) to alter things just enough?
What if we purged individual Iconians (altering their political/societal makeup), technologies (altering their capabilities), or servitors (altering both their capabilities and their access to information)?
What about individual Gates, negating attacks and reshaping Iconian supply lines, while bolstering our own comparative resources?
Why not use the temporal displacement capability used defensively by the Krenim in an offensive manner? If Iconian minds cannot handle time travel, why not use localized temporal displacement fields to break a few Iconian as an object lesson in messing with the current Milky Way species? Why are we messing around with the Ctrl+X ship when we could be using existing Krenim technology?
There are so many more options than simple genocide...
With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.
But they were real. To the people in the ship they saw a planet full of people, and hit a button that made them all go away. Other people might never know you did it, but you willfully removed an entire civilization.
Plato, Descartes, and other Realists/Idealists would like to have a word with you about the notion that "Essence precedes existence" and a hierarchy of reality ...
But they were real. To the people in the ship they saw a planet full of people, and hit a button that made them all go away. Other people might never know you did it, but you willfully removed an entire civilization.
Plato, Descartes, and other Realists/Idealists would like to have a word with you about the notion that "Essence precedes existence" and a hierarchy of reality ...
1. they're dead
2. you asked
3. it's not my definition; go yell at merriam and webster if you have issues with it - assuming they aren't also dead
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Comments
Yes, I remember, if you pay any attention to the way I worded it. Which clearly you did not. My point is that the wiping out of species left the biggest impression. It showed what a terrible weapon this thing can really be. And even then, they showed that wiping out the wrong comet could have serious consequences.
It's pretty much this hard to keep just one timeline intact. ♪
No ant has ever talked to me. And I've never been able to say something to an ant that implied she could make out my words.
Even Q recognized that we we were somewhat intelligent, and he communicated with us. And he's omnipotent. He really could crush us, and we'd have no chance to fight back.
Step 1) Travel back in time to the Solanae Dyson Sphere and sabotage it, so it gets abandonded by the Solanae and whoever else was there.
Step 2) Travel back in time to the destruction of Romulus, and use the Iconian Gateway tech to evacuate the Romulan population aboard the Solanae Sphere.
Step 3) Travel back in time to Iconia at the time of the bombing, and evacuate the Iconians to the Solanae Sphere. Since the Iconians don't take too well to time travel, park the sphere in a safe spot.
Step 4) 200,000 years later, discover the time-shifted copy of the Solanae sphere.
Step 5) Contact the Romulan/Iconian descendents and find out the only one left is "The One", the rest long advanced to a higher lifeform, and unite him with the (broken) circle of Iconians what wage war on us.
Step 6) Peace, Rainbows and Unicorns, Klingons and Romulans living together in harmony, Q organizing the party of the millenium.
- Go into the Wormhole.
- Get The Sisko back.
- Get the Sisko to punch Q until he does as we ask.
- Get the now broken Q to magic the Iconians away.
- If 4 fails go back to 1 and get the Prophets to magic the Iconians away.
- If 5 fails try Trelane, or the Nacene, or Gorgan, or God, or the Pah-wraiths, etc.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Errr, I haz starship .
Would arrogant glowy would-be-gods like a starship ?
No, noooo ... , I iz not stealing proverbial starship joke from Shatnertrek ... , I iz ... just pointing out that the last Iconian we killed literraly died because she didn't want to let go of her ride ... , err ... starship .
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you point out wrong. HE thinks we need him to say that.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
My character Tsin'xing
When Annorex changed the timelines, he didn't just wipe out some species - he also caused a lot of people into existence that didn't exist because some other species occupied their space. A colony that was never founded by Species X can be a colony founded by Species Y.
Sure. But does it matter for your guilt whether you commit a robbery or an assault?
Truely, an interesting idea - a group of time travellers that eradicate entire civilizations but don't know about it, because you can't remember things that never existed...
The Year of Hell posited that there was a way to protect oneself from the changes to the timeline caused by the Krenim ship.
But what would that really mean? It seems to me that the different timelines exist in some kind of continuum or meta-universe. The changes made by the timeship might be more akin to moving from one possible reality to another. But if that was the case, then the races were not really eradicated- they existed, but in a different "place". Maybe he time ship can't travel back to that place, but the place is still there. So... There is no real genocide happening... Unless perhaps the Krenim ship does travel to a point in this alternate reality where the race would come into being, stop that from happening, and then fast forwards through time to the result. But even then, genocide is debatable - any action a space-faring civilization might take on a world could hinder development of life - or cause it.
But, of course, once we have something like this, it seems that there is a "universe of universes"; a multiverse or a universe. Everything possible exists in it.. But - if travel between them is possible, that seems to suggest you can also have different possibilities for travel routes, which might mean that that there is also a universe of universe of universes, that contains the different possibility of time travel routes between universes. And so on and so forth. It's turtles all the way down.
Not only that, for you YOU still erased them, you're on that ship. and that action you took was wrong, even if the result can't be.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
The Year of Hell should have been the concept for a whole season. Maybe ideally without the time travel shenengians, or with some internally consistent one or whatever.
I wonder, are there any time travel stories about "fake memory implanatation" devices? INstead of actually travelling through time, they just implant memories of an alternate timeline that you averted...
Anyways intentionally eradicating an entire race is genocide, regardless of how you do it. It's a matter of motive. Deciding "I want to kill every Zahl who has ever lived." THAT is what is wrong. The end result of your actions is irrelevant.
My character Tsin'xing
I recall that near the end of "Uneasy Allies", Sela asserts that the Iconians can't endure time travel because "it destroys their minds". If Cryptic leverages from this bit of dialog, then it's not difficult to envision a number of possibilities without having to resort to unbelievable whimsy. If their minds are "destroyed" by time travel, they would cease to be a threat to anyone, without further intervention by "the Other". In any scenario, it would be expedient for the Krenim weapon to implode after use, to avert future misuse of the technology.
For example, the Krenim weapon could be used to send the Iconians back in time (pick a historically calm period in recent galactic history), perhaps before their intrusion in the Federation/Klingon Empire peace accord. In this case, several Klingon warriors would still be alive, and the common enemies are once again the Undine & the Borg.
Or, the Iconians could be sent back even further, before they were using the Undine as a proxy to attack the Federation & KDF; in this case, there may not even have been a compelling reason for a peace accord between the old foes, and we go back to the old status quo of fighting for control of our own galaxy.
If "the Other" invtervene to save the Iconians once again, it could be just in time to prevent their extinction, after devastating losses, in which case, it is possible that we might find ourselves meeting "the Other" face-to-face. Judging by the fact that they have not found a compelling reason to encounter the "lesser" sentients in the galaxy, they may not be hostile at the meeting, and possibly even conciliatory ("...sorry, we didn't think our brethren would go back to their old ways...").
The larger view is what effect these plot twists might have on future gameplay; if the Iconians are once again relegated to history, would the Iconian Resistance rep & all its hardware also vanish? (This would be a welcome method IMO to partially reverse some power creep.) How far back do the Iconians disappear, and what other races flourish unexpectedly because of the new timeline? The Iconian war currently overshadows all other game content, so future expansion of the game will directly impacted by how the war is resolved.
Savik - Vulcan Fed Temporal Sci
Dahar Masters Fleet: Alphal'Fa - Alien KDF Engineer Qun'pau - Rom/KDF Engineer D'nesh - Orion KDF Scientist Ghen'khan - Liberated KDF Tac
Welcome to StarBug Online - to boldly Bug where no bug has been before!
STO player since November 2013
Define "real."
Go ahead. I dare you.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/real
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
What if we purged individual Iconians (altering their political/societal makeup), technologies (altering their capabilities), or servitors (altering both their capabilities and their access to information)?
What about individual Gates, negating attacks and reshaping Iconian supply lines, while bolstering our own comparative resources?
Why not use the temporal displacement capability used defensively by the Krenim in an offensive manner? If Iconian minds cannot handle time travel, why not use localized temporal displacement fields to break a few Iconian as an object lesson in messing with the current Milky Way species? Why are we messing around with the Ctrl+X ship when we could be using existing Krenim technology?
There are so many more options than simple genocide...
Plato, Descartes, and other Realists/Idealists would like to have a word with you about the notion that "Essence precedes existence" and a hierarchy of reality ...
1. they're dead
2. you asked
3. it's not my definition; go yell at merriam and webster if you have issues with it - assuming they aren't also dead
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"