Maybe the devs should start giving all the complainers a serious nerf on their accounts, then the complainers, will have something to complain about.
Bet you all are the ones that complain when they give free stuff to everyone.
If you not happy, stop playing, take a break or something, cause seriously, with all the complaining you all do, you rub off on people and spread your negativity and im half expecting the devs will do something in retaliation to all of us because you people cant just have your say and then drop it and move on like adults do, no, gotta carry on like children....grow up. You had your say, now drop it!
21 pages and growing. Do you all think they are going to change their minds? With the name calling, borderline abuse,accusations, and what nots, do you all really, honestly think they will change their minds with the way you guys are treating them??
If i was a forum moderator, some of you would be banned.
Cue the white knight remarks :P
1. you are not forced to read complaints
2. you are not forced to answer to complaints
3. if all the people that have a serious problem with the current state of the game leave (as you suggested) you might find yourself alone on the server someday
People will complain and there is nothing that can stop them.
They dont complain because everything is shiny.. they complain because they have serious reasons to complain. The current state of this game and how the players are treaten are damn well a reason to complain. This will continue until this game is either dead or the developers finally wake up from their dreams and create a game environment that is fun again.
Mulitiple times in the past days ive read about a "war be players and developers" which in my eyes is a very interesting description. Interesting because if people really feel this way then the situation is worse than expected.
Have the players started such a war? Nope... players have had alot of patience over the past months and years with the developers.
This was payed back with insults (such as calling players "morrons" or "exploiters"), a massive amount of greed (e.g. forcing players to buy ship upgrades), nerfing the game to a giant grindfest where the players dont even have enought room to breathe anymore and by lying to the playerbase (including silently editing blogs).
Im not saying that the developers have started such a war.... but for sure they showed a great talent in fueling it for more than half a year, week by week.
The only thing you can blame the players for is that they started to complain and thats just a reaction to the unfair treatment from cryptic.
Some people have tried to defend cryptic and arguemented with "but lately they have released so many free items for the players...". Have they?
You guys believe in fairytales, right?
Telling you to play a mission over and over again for a reward is not free... it is just a method to keep you in the game... to keep you playing... Cryptic gains more than you do by doing that.
In times where unhappy players are leaving the game it is their way to slightly correct their statistics (which in long term prevents cryptic from shutting down).
Nothing is free in such a game.
Just look a the delta recruitment how much time you had to spend in the game to unlock everything and how little rewards you got.
A one time cooldown reduction device that you can use max one time per mission (wow).
A one time heal that you probably never need on ground (incredible).
Traits that are less effective than anything else you can slot (yay).
1 dil per killed enemy... wow by the time you reach the last breen mission you certainly have earned 3000 dil.
Really you think that you got something for free?
Imagine you had taken your main alt and played a few hours PVE ... you would have had about the same amount of dil earned.
The difference is on your Delta Alts it took you 10-20 times longer to reach that.
Thats why delta recruitment is actually done... to keep players online with the nice side effect that they did cosmetical corrections to the game statistics.
Wait till the end of the year and they will show you a new chart that is displaying how many new STO chars have been created in 2015. And they will use this manipulated statistics to tell us and probably also their PWE bosses how successful STO was in 2015 and that all their changes were positive for the development of the playerbase.
Thats how this game works.
You are free to believe in your fairytales or to wake up and realize why so many people are complaining actually.
What i did say was "If i was a forum moderator, SOME of you would be banned."
namely the ones doing all the name calling and accusations, because you do need a break from the forums.....but yes, you would be one because you just accused me of saying something that i never said..turning around what i said.
Learn to read
I believe God created the universe, because he knew we wanted to explore. So, he made us a playground...
What i did say was "If i was a forum moderator, SOME of you would be banned."
namely the ones doing all the name calling and accusations, because you do need a break from the forums.....but yes, you would be one because you just accused me of saying something that i never said..turning around what i said.
Learn to read
that is reason for a ban? wow
game forums world wide would be empty if people turn this into a reason for bans
moderators job is to moderate btw. ... that means to guide members through discussions
it is not their job to ban
ok... the moderators here dont moderate much but well...
they also dont have the right to ban anybody (its clearly written the forum rules that they cant)
... but this is atm going off topic (which btw. would be the moderators job to bring this discussion back on track)
What i did say was "If i was a forum moderator, SOME of you would be banned."
namely the ones doing all the name calling and accusations, because you do need a break from the forums.....but yes, you would be one because you just accused me of saying something that i never said..turning around what i said.
Your comment, and my translation are largely identical. Your above revision of history, suggests I was correct, since you originally used the word "nerf", but have since changed it to "ban".
For the record, if you've been banned from the forums, it's very hard to complain about it on the forums. You should probably do some investigating on what the job of a moderator actually is, and what reasons are actual bannable offenses.
As swatop said, this has trailed from the topic quite enough I think.
What i did say was "If i was a forum moderator, SOME of you would be banned."
namely the ones doing all the name calling and accusations, because you do need a break from the forums.....but yes, you would be one because you just accused me of saying something that i never said..turning around what i said.
Learn to read
this is exactly why the concept of VOLUNTEER kapo's is bad and hopefully we wont have any when the forums merge with all the PWE ones.
Just because people cant post here doesn't mean the feelings or problems go away or people don't actually discuss this IN GAME or in social media.
Censoring these forums doesn't solve anything.
The Cryptic brand at this point is tainted and its not because someone posted a negative comment in a 50 page thread.
Clear-cut proof. Go work out some numbers yourself.
Nerf: a foam dart used to cushion the impact from an pneumatic projectile launcher. Its a very particular reference where you take something and weaken it to the point where it has practically no effect.
It does NOT apply to ALL changes, PARTICULARLY bug fixes.
Take a look at 12 hour assignments. Then take a look at any other kind of assignment, ESPECIALLY the longer ones. There is absolutely no reason why 12 hour's should have a magical amount of XP and here we finally have an answer to why they have up to this point (miscalculation). Yes, you may be able to earn equivalent Xp from repeatedly slotting short assignment over the course of 12 hours, but except in the worst binge sessions that's not a realistic expectation.
Now that's finally being addressed, the devs are responding to objective problems with appropriate tweaks for that item. Deal with it. This video game's sole function isn't to provide you with easy XP. If that has to go (in order for a system to operate with just a bit more logic) then so long and thanks for all the fish.
Since I should add something constructive to the discussion, here goes.
A proposal on suggested rewards, in the form of "Skill Points" from the Duty Officer system.
Thats quite sensible. You have my vote.
One point though
Longer duration assignments, should naturally reward more as they take longer to complete, and your officers are tied up for longer duration.
That's true but longer assignments can be left running continuously, ie. while you're not in game. If you scale the rewards equally longer assignments will reward more xp per unit time because they'll be active for a greater portion of the time you spend offline.
A more balanced solution is to have longer assignments scale slightly down, not up (and I say slightly to balance the above point against tying duty officers up).
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
All things being equal, if you run a single 12 hour assignment or run 12, 1 hour assignments, should net you about the same amount of XP.
Things like Dilithium would scale differently naturally. A more active player should be able to earn Dilithium faster than the one who runs solely 12 hour "auto-pilot" assignments. Similar to how the Reputation system allows you to run either 20 hour (big XP) projects, or 1 hour (small XP) projects.
Question at that point is if this actually is a bug at all.
Originally published with the introduction of the doff asignments back in 2011 it is clearly written that
We have several goals for the system:
Provide significant non-combat gameplay that fills the desire for less overtly aggressive styles of gameplay.
Create an engaging logistical mini-game.
Provide a supplementary or even alternative character advancement mechanic - this will be useful for both factions, but in particular should somewhat ease advancement issues in the KDF.
Establish a new set of parallel achievement goals and rewards in the form of the Commendation part of the system to give more goals for players who have hit cap.
Provide alternative and supplementary mechanics and support to an array of frustrations apparent in existing systems such as the process for gathering anomalies, gaining high quality bridge officers, the Diplomacy grind, the lack of a parallel Diplomacy system on the KDF side, lack of usage for commodities, need for more Energy Credit sinks, and so on.
Until recently the majority of the 12h doff assignments were KDF related which perfectly gave players a reason and the ability to make progress on their KDF chars.
Based on the original information from the guy which designed the doff system it looks like these 12 hour (KDF) missions were supposed to get a boost and therefore this is no bug but intentional game design.
Ok, i certainly lean myself wide out of the window with that but its about as logical as the "its a bug, no nerf" claims here. Only the original creator of the doff system could really say whats true.
BTW. later in the official announcement there are multiple references that there are doff assignments with special rewards. Rewards that are higher than the usual ones of the usual categories.
Rewards are scaled based on time (although longer assignments are per capita not as rewarding, since they require less micromanagement on the part of the player), assignment rarity, success versus critical success determination, amount of inputs (so if you have to put commodities or another type of item to do it, it will generally be more rewarding), danger to the assigned crew, chance of success, and existence of non-numerical rewards.
...would be from the third post of the thread he created there.
The ultimate goal as far as skill points and the duty officer system is that if you were to spend 100% of your time with the system and were smart about how you did it, you could conceivably level at mildly better than half the speed you could if you were leveling through other methods. Note, this 100% of your time refers to you being actively logged in, checking the Exchange for better officers, traveling back to Qo'noS or Starfleet Academy, checking sector blocks for various assignments, and so on.
The current allocation of skill points very well may need to be reined in again to hit this goal; due to bugs and balance issues the initial several weeks the system was live saw a progression rate that was in excess of these goals. Once we get some additional hard numbers, we will be in a better position to determine what needs still to be done to approach these targets more closely than is currently the case.
We do, however, wish for it to remain to be a viable, albeit not optimal, method of leveling.
In practice, we expect most players who engage in the system to use it as an auxiliary to their normal play rather than a substitute, although some will certainly choose to use it as a substitute, and we're fine with that as well given the above considerations.
...and I just can't see why folks are still trying to make it out to be anything but broken.
What gets me the most here is that these missions have been giving that amount for months. Months. And at no time before this has anything been said about them giving abnormal skill and expertise points. Heck, at one point they weren't even giving people (myself included) the proper amount (I would get less than the base amount but still more than this apparent nerf would give).
So instead of this looking like something that's been in the works for some time, it now looks like this:
(A pretend conversation between Cryptic employess)
Employee 1: Oh my god, the players are leveling!
Employee 2: Those TRIBBLE!
Yes, I'm comparing this out-of-nowhere response to what nobody thought was an issue until now to an overused South Park meme.
that is reason for a ban? wow
game forums world wide would be empty if people turn this into a reason for bans
moderators job is to moderate btw. ... that means to guide members through discussions
it is not their job to ban
ok... the moderators here dont moderate much but well...
they also dont have the right to ban anybody (its clearly written the forum rules that they cant)
... but this is atm going off topic (which btw. would be the moderators job to bring this discussion back on track)
Dont care, point is, you people need to lighten up and pull your heads out of your a****
arrogant ungrateful bunch
I believe God created the universe, because he knew we wanted to explore. So, he made us a playground...
Ever stopped to consider then, maybe, just maybe, if what everyone says here is true, did it ever occur to you all, that the devs do this intentionally because no matter what they do with the game, people whine.
People cried for 2 yrs, " we want level increase" devs give it and people whined
people wanted new content, devs give it, people whined
people want free ships or costumes or gear, etc, devs give it, people whined
i see it all the time and laugh and think "what a bunch of babies " lol
I believe God created the universe, because he knew we wanted to explore. So, he made us a playground...
Here is another compromise. It also way to push doffing. Since players max out CXP at 150000. Once a player hit this amount is all the CXP converts into SPXP.
I finally got a chance to check out the Tribble updates.
The fix for the Commando Specialization Quick Draw seems to be working now, thanks!
However, I was disappointed to see I could *NOT* edit my Photonic Bridge Officers. I tried on several characters and none of them would let me click modify.
Do I have to discharge and reclaim the BOffs? I thought this might be so, so I attempted to do it, but after discharging I found the C-Store doesn't exist on Tribble, so I can't reclaim it.
Edit: I copied a character from Holodeck to Tribble that had an unopened Special Requisition Pack - Photonic Science Officer reward box, once on Tribble I discharged his existing BOff, and opened the BOff-in-the-box. Now that newly commissioned PhotoBOff was able to be modified like any normal BOff. So that's great, will just have to go around discharging and reclaiming from the C-Store once this goes live. Kinda of a pain to have to retrain all their skills, but a worthy price to pay to be able to change their appearance. Thanks. FYI - You may want to note that in the Release Notes.
I got my PBOff unlock from the old Friend Referral program so can reclaim them from the C-Store Legacy Unlocks. ...How can people who got their BOff from a box get to reclaim them?
You can find/contact me in game as @PatricianVetinari. Playing STO since Feb 2010.
To Cryptic/Perfect World from a person who plays on Defera.
We would appreciate if you did some maintenance work to Defera. That is all.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Hey Cryptic/Perfect World, you want a successful game and be venerated for Star Trek Online? Then make the game with more fun, instead of making the game with more greed.
I have not been able to customize the uniform of the Referral Photonic Officer on tribble?
As it stands, you need to discharge and reclaim the RPO. If you got it from a box, it's a hard deal..although if you referred a friend, it should work when this goes live.
As it stands, you need to discharge and reclaim the RPO. If you got it from a box, it's a hard deal..although if you referred a friend, it should work when this goes live.
all the level III skills we have taken the time and resources to train will be gone
cause we cannot trade these BOFFS for training? that is mind boggling smh that is a big time issue with the patch
But its ok for you lot to insult the devs is it?:rolleyes:
If it was all sunshine and rainbows, we'd be giving the devs the wrong impression as well. Criticism is necessary. When you silence the critics because you don't like what they have to say, you become no better than the likes of the Chinese or North Korean governments. Is that what we want around here?
If it was all sunshine and rainbows, we'd be giving the devs the wrong impression as well. Criticism is necessary. When you silence the critics because you don't like what they have to say, you become no better than the likes of the Chinese or North Korean governments. Is that what we want around here?
did i say to be silent?no, i have been talking about the way you lot talk to the devs, the insults, caliing them names, like liars, idiots and every other name you guys have dropped. Criticism is fine, but isnt it rather childish to be name dropping? To be throwing insults around? No need for it! And thats half the problem, do u really blame the devs for not taking any of you seriously when you all berate, insult and name call them? I dont, not the slightest....saying goes, what goes around, comes around.
I believe God created the universe, because he knew we wanted to explore. So, he made us a playground...
But its ok for you lot to insult the devs is it?:rolleyes:
I actually havent. Ive been talking about their work at best which is not equal to insulting them. Even if I had done this it would only mean that we are even now. Ive said that they were lying, but thats just a reflection of what they did.
Comments
1. you are not forced to read complaints
2. you are not forced to answer to complaints
3. if all the people that have a serious problem with the current state of the game leave (as you suggested) you might find yourself alone on the server someday
People will complain and there is nothing that can stop them.
They dont complain because everything is shiny.. they complain because they have serious reasons to complain. The current state of this game and how the players are treaten are damn well a reason to complain. This will continue until this game is either dead or the developers finally wake up from their dreams and create a game environment that is fun again.
Mulitiple times in the past days ive read about a "war be players and developers" which in my eyes is a very interesting description. Interesting because if people really feel this way then the situation is worse than expected.
Have the players started such a war? Nope... players have had alot of patience over the past months and years with the developers.
This was payed back with insults (such as calling players "morrons" or "exploiters"), a massive amount of greed (e.g. forcing players to buy ship upgrades), nerfing the game to a giant grindfest where the players dont even have enought room to breathe anymore and by lying to the playerbase (including silently editing blogs).
Im not saying that the developers have started such a war.... but for sure they showed a great talent in fueling it for more than half a year, week by week.
The only thing you can blame the players for is that they started to complain and thats just a reaction to the unfair treatment from cryptic.
Some people have tried to defend cryptic and arguemented with "but lately they have released so many free items for the players...". Have they?
You guys believe in fairytales, right?
Telling you to play a mission over and over again for a reward is not free... it is just a method to keep you in the game... to keep you playing... Cryptic gains more than you do by doing that.
In times where unhappy players are leaving the game it is their way to slightly correct their statistics (which in long term prevents cryptic from shutting down).
Nothing is free in such a game.
Just look a the delta recruitment how much time you had to spend in the game to unlock everything and how little rewards you got.
A one time cooldown reduction device that you can use max one time per mission (wow).
A one time heal that you probably never need on ground (incredible).
Traits that are less effective than anything else you can slot (yay).
1 dil per killed enemy... wow by the time you reach the last breen mission you certainly have earned 3000 dil.
Really you think that you got something for free?
Imagine you had taken your main alt and played a few hours PVE ... you would have had about the same amount of dil earned.
The difference is on your Delta Alts it took you 10-20 times longer to reach that.
Thats why delta recruitment is actually done... to keep players online with the nice side effect that they did cosmetical corrections to the game statistics.
Wait till the end of the year and they will show you a new chart that is displaying how many new STO chars have been created in 2015. And they will use this manipulated statistics to tell us and probably also their PWE bosses how successful STO was in 2015 and that all their changes were positive for the development of the playerbase.
Thats how this game works.
You are free to believe in your fairytales or to wake up and realize why so many people are complaining actually.
Where did i say that? I NEVER said that at all!
What i did say was "If i was a forum moderator, SOME of you would be banned."
namely the ones doing all the name calling and accusations, because you do need a break from the forums.....but yes, you would be one because you just accused me of saying something that i never said..turning around what i said.
Learn to read
Another one that didnt read what i actually said
that is reason for a ban? wow
game forums world wide would be empty if people turn this into a reason for bans
moderators job is to moderate btw. ... that means to guide members through discussions
it is not their job to ban
ok... the moderators here dont moderate much but well...
they also dont have the right to ban anybody (its clearly written the forum rules that they cant)
... but this is atm going off topic (which btw. would be the moderators job to bring this discussion back on track)
As should you. Since the quote was:
Which I translated as
Your comment, and my translation are largely identical. Your above revision of history, suggests I was correct, since you originally used the word "nerf", but have since changed it to "ban".
For the record, if you've been banned from the forums, it's very hard to complain about it on the forums. You should probably do some investigating on what the job of a moderator actually is, and what reasons are actual bannable offenses.
As swatop said, this has trailed from the topic quite enough I think.
http://i.imgur.com/0KMlESf.png
Clear-cut proof. Go work out some numbers yourself.
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A proposal on suggested rewards, in the form of "Skill Points" from the Duty Officer system.
this is exactly why the concept of VOLUNTEER kapo's is bad and hopefully we wont have any when the forums merge with all the PWE ones.
Just because people cant post here doesn't mean the feelings or problems go away or people don't actually discuss this IN GAME or in social media.
Censoring these forums doesn't solve anything.
The Cryptic brand at this point is tainted and its not because someone posted a negative comment in a 50 page thread.
The higher-ups are in complete denial.
Nerf: a foam dart used to cushion the impact from an pneumatic projectile launcher. Its a very particular reference where you take something and weaken it to the point where it has practically no effect.
It does NOT apply to ALL changes, PARTICULARLY bug fixes.
Take a look at 12 hour assignments. Then take a look at any other kind of assignment, ESPECIALLY the longer ones. There is absolutely no reason why 12 hour's should have a magical amount of XP and here we finally have an answer to why they have up to this point (miscalculation). Yes, you may be able to earn equivalent Xp from repeatedly slotting short assignment over the course of 12 hours, but except in the worst binge sessions that's not a realistic expectation.
Now that's finally being addressed, the devs are responding to objective problems with appropriate tweaks for that item. Deal with it. This video game's sole function isn't to provide you with easy XP. If that has to go (in order for a system to operate with just a bit more logic) then so long and thanks for all the fish.
Thats quite sensible. You have my vote.
One point though That's true but longer assignments can be left running continuously, ie. while you're not in game. If you scale the rewards equally longer assignments will reward more xp per unit time because they'll be active for a greater portion of the time you spend offline.
A more balanced solution is to have longer assignments scale slightly down, not up (and I say slightly to balance the above point against tying duty officers up).
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Things like Dilithium would scale differently naturally. A more active player should be able to earn Dilithium faster than the one who runs solely 12 hour "auto-pilot" assignments. Similar to how the Reputation system allows you to run either 20 hour (big XP) projects, or 1 hour (small XP) projects.
Originally published with the introduction of the doff asignments back in 2011 it is clearly written that
Until recently the majority of the 12h doff assignments were KDF related which perfectly gave players a reason and the ability to make progress on their KDF chars.
Based on the original information from the guy which designed the doff system it looks like these 12 hour (KDF) missions were supposed to get a boost and therefore this is no bug but intentional game design.
Ok, i certainly lean myself wide out of the window with that but its about as logical as the "its a bug, no nerf" claims here. Only the original creator of the doff system could really say whats true.
BTW. later in the official announcement there are multiple references that there are doff assignments with special rewards. Rewards that are higher than the usual ones of the usual categories.
Obviousy I should take the 12 1 hour assigments, thank you very much.
Sarcasm doesn't help the conversation along.
Except Heretic saying it wouldn't work that way...
...would be from the third post of the thread he created there.
Work in this from another thread...
...and I just can't see why folks are still trying to make it out to be anything but broken.
So instead of this looking like something that's been in the works for some time, it now looks like this:
(A pretend conversation between Cryptic employess)
Employee 1: Oh my god, the players are leveling!
Employee 2: Those TRIBBLE!
Yes, I'm comparing this out-of-nowhere response to what nobody thought was an issue until now to an overused South Park meme.
Dont care, point is, you people need to lighten up and pull your heads out of your a****
arrogant ungrateful bunch
Ever stopped to consider then, maybe, just maybe, if what everyone says here is true, did it ever occur to you all, that the devs do this intentionally because no matter what they do with the game, people whine.
People cried for 2 yrs, " we want level increase" devs give it and people whined
people wanted new content, devs give it, people whined
people want free ships or costumes or gear, etc, devs give it, people whined
i see it all the time and laugh and think "what a bunch of babies " lol
That's not true though, you're physically hardcapped on the amount of times you can do them daily.
It's 3, right?
I haven't checked recently because as it stands it's a waste to spend marks on them.
The fix for the Commando Specialization Quick Draw seems to be working now, thanks!
However, I was disappointed to see I could *NOT* edit my Photonic Bridge Officers. I tried on several characters and none of them would let me click modify.
Do I have to discharge and reclaim the BOffs? I thought this might be so, so I attempted to do it, but after discharging I found the C-Store doesn't exist on Tribble, so I can't reclaim it.
Edit: I copied a character from Holodeck to Tribble that had an unopened Special Requisition Pack - Photonic Science Officer reward box, once on Tribble I discharged his existing BOff, and opened the BOff-in-the-box. Now that newly commissioned PhotoBOff was able to be modified like any normal BOff. So that's great, will just have to go around discharging and reclaiming from the C-Store once this goes live. Kinda of a pain to have to retrain all their skills, but a worthy price to pay to be able to change their appearance. Thanks. FYI - You may want to note that in the Release Notes.
I got my PBOff unlock from the old Friend Referral program so can reclaim them from the C-Store Legacy Unlocks. ...How can people who got their BOff from a box get to reclaim them?
You can find/contact me in game as @PatricianVetinari. Playing STO since Feb 2010.
Yes, 3, 1 hourlies per day is the limit
We would appreciate if you did some maintenance work to Defera. That is all.
Hey Cryptic/Perfect World, you want a successful game and be venerated for Star Trek Online? Then make the game with more fun, instead of making the game with more greed.
I have not been able to customize the uniform of the Referral Photonic Officer on tribble?
As it stands, you need to discharge and reclaim the RPO. If you got it from a box, it's a hard deal..although if you referred a friend, it should work when this goes live.
all the level III skills we have taken the time and resources to train will be gone
cause we cannot trade these BOFFS for training? that is mind boggling smh that is a big time issue with the patch
hmm, well... Im not quiet sure if insulting other people is conform with the forum rules
But its ok for you lot to insult the devs is it?:rolleyes:
If it was all sunshine and rainbows, we'd be giving the devs the wrong impression as well. Criticism is necessary. When you silence the critics because you don't like what they have to say, you become no better than the likes of the Chinese or North Korean governments. Is that what we want around here?
did i say to be silent?no, i have been talking about the way you lot talk to the devs, the insults, caliing them names, like liars, idiots and every other name you guys have dropped. Criticism is fine, but isnt it rather childish to be name dropping? To be throwing insults around? No need for it! And thats half the problem, do u really blame the devs for not taking any of you seriously when you all berate, insult and name call them? I dont, not the slightest....saying goes, what goes around, comes around.
I actually havent. Ive been talking about their work at best which is not equal to insulting them. Even if I had done this it would only mean that we are even now. Ive said that they were lying, but thats just a reflection of what they did.