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Tribble Maintenance and Release Notes - May 1, 2015

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  • ikonn#1068 ikonn Member Posts: 1,450 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    They are "probably" nerfing Doffing in another pathetic attempt to "herd" the player base into playing the game they want us to play... not the way we would play it.

    They didn't like that people were doing Tau Dewa patrols instead of the Delta storyline, so they nerfed the hell out of those patrols and then Argala/Gerren had cooldowns added. Now, they don't like that people are doffing to get Specialization XP, so they have to nerf Doffing too.

    Here's a simple solution for you guys at Cryptic... especially since it looks like you guys are heading this direction anyways... Take out everything except what you want us to play and see how many players remain when you're done.

    Maybe it's better to just kill the game outright instead of watching it slowly bleed to death because of what I think are idiotic decisions coming from the people who came up with many of these half-baked ideas that make their way into the game already.

    You're killing the game... and everything is awesome!
    -AoP- Warrior's Blood (KDF Armada) / -AoP- Qu' raD qulbo'Degh / -AoP- Project Phoenix
    Join Date: Tuesday, February 2, 2010
  • sharpie65sharpie65 Member Posts: 679 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    It's laughable really..instead of people just doing nothing but DOffing (which is probably why the payouts were reduced), it's a way of getting people to actually play the game. As opposed to finding the path of least resistance to get SXP quickly, which is what it appears to be at the moment.

    EDIT: I realise that I may be getting called a "white knight" now, for apparently defending the decision..Don't care.
    MXeSfqV.jpg
  • sheldonlcoopersheldonlcooper Member Posts: 4,042 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    sharpie65 wrote: »
    It's laughable really..instead of people just doing nothing but DOffing (which is probably why the payouts were reduced), it's a way of getting people to actually play the game. As opposed to finding the path of least resistance to get SXP quickly, which is what it appears to be at the moment.

    EDIT: I realise that I may be getting called a "white knight" now, for apparently defending the decision..Don't care.

    Please indicate which parts of the game are parts of the game so that I can play correctly.
    Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."

    "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

  • arrmateysarrmateys Member Posts: 466 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    is there any other content that isn't incredibly dull? stfs get really boring after 10th time. storyline missions too, and they reward less for more time. foundry cuts off rewards after less than 10k exp a day, so after that there's no reason to play them. doffing is dull as well, but at least it didn't take hours to complete, and gave you a slow, steady xp income.

    now that this xp income will be next to nothing, and since cryptic isn't releasing new story content each week, there's really nothing to do but play the same content over and over and over and over and over and over again.

    but last time we tried that, tau dewa was killed and argala got 30 minute timegates.
    Now clowns, that's another story. They scare the cr​ap out of me.
    We fight them too. Entire armies spilling out of Volkswagens.
    We do our best to fight them off, but they keep sending them in.
  • borticuscrypticborticuscryptic Member Posts: 2,478 Cryptic Developer
    edited May 2015
    Let me try and clear up a few misconceptions and possibly even cool some heads around here, regarding the Doffing XP adjustment. Fix. Let's call it what it is: we fixed an error in the code.

    When you see a string of numbers laid out as:

    10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 40, 3, 2, 1

    ... you don't presume it's correct. And once you've determined that the series has an inconsistency, you find yourself with what we in Design sometimes call "a bump in the floor."

    As in, if you have a big flat floor with one obvious bump in it, you don't raise the entire floor to the level of the bump. You take a hammer to that thing, and you fix it.

    This fix was not made with the conscious intention of decreasing anyone's enjoyment of the game, or ability to earn XP/CXP, or anything else we're currently being accused of. The fix was made because it is a fix -- a problem existed, and had to be corrected.

    So, yes: Doff Assignments with durations between 12 and 15.9 hours were awarding roughly 10x the amount of numerics they were designed to reward. I'm sorry if you assumed that was an intended part of the system, but it was, in fact, an egregious misplacement of a decimal place, and needed to be corrected.

    We will take another look at Doff Assignment XP gain as a whole in the near future, and see if it's reasonable to consider any sort of systemic increases. But we aren't going to add back in a bug, or revert a fix to such an obvious error.
    Jeremy Randall
    Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
    "Play smart!"
  • phantrosityphantrosity Member Posts: 239 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    a problem existed, and had to be corrected.

    Why did it need to be corrected?
  • borticuscrypticborticuscryptic Member Posts: 2,478 Cryptic Developer
    edited May 2015
    Why did it need to be corrected?

    Because systems cannot be maintained, improved, or expanded safely if they are built on inaccurate data.
    Jeremy Randall
    Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
    "Play smart!"
  • kazabokkazabok Member Posts: 230 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    When you see a string of numbers laid out as:

    10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 40, 3, 2, 1

    ... you don't presume it's correct. And once you've determined that the series has an inconsistency, you find yourself with what we in Design sometimes call "a bump in the floor."


    Why not fix in favour of DOFFing instead?

    Go with:

    100, 90, 80, 70, 60, 50, 40, 30, 20, 10

    Instead of:

    10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1


    There are two ways to level the floor.
  • linksword01linksword01 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    The main issue with the adjustment Borticus it that it already affects a lager problem that has existed since the launch of Delta Rising: The XP Curve.

    I for one have never understood why the curve wend from a "casual angle" to "climb mount Everest" in scale. While 10 levels were added to the cap and the Specialization System was added, most players were not happy with how much the XP gain was slowed down from Levels 50-60, especially how it forces mission replays to fill gaps between missions.

    One thing I can tell you, my fleet had about 70ish Gold Subscribers who loved STO. After DR launched and the XP grind was revealed, they canceled their subs, and half of them went to play Star Conflict (pre-PWE).

    What I'm trying to say is that if a player could go from Level 50-60 without having to replay missions, run PvE Queues, or DOFF like a madman, I think the community at large would be alot happier.
  • phantrosityphantrosity Member Posts: 239 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Because systems cannot be maintained, improved, or expanded safely if they are built on inaccurate data.

    So, if I understand properly, the rationale is based on what the change does to the back-end of the game, rather than to the effect it has upon the player-facing front-end?
  • latiasracerlatiasracer Member Posts: 680 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Let me try and clear up a few misconceptions and possibly even cool some heads around here, regarding the Doffing XP adjustment. Fix. Let's call it what it is: we fixed an error in the code.

    When you see a string of numbers laid out as:

    10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 40, 3, 2, 1

    ... you don't presume it's correct. And once you've determined that the series has an inconsistency, you find yourself with what we in Design sometimes call "a bump in the floor."

    As in, if you have a big flat floor with one obvious bump in it, you don't raise the entire floor to the level of the bump. You take a hammer to that thing, and you fix it.

    This fix was not made with the conscious intention of decreasing anyone's enjoyment of the game, or ability to earn XP/CXP, or anything else we're currently being accused of. The fix was made because it is a fix -- a problem existed, and had to be corrected.

    So, yes: Doff Assignments with durations between 12 and 15.9 hours were awarding roughly 10x the amount of numerics they were designed to reward. I'm sorry if you assumed that was an intended part of the system, but it was, in fact, an egregious misplacement of a decimal place, and needed to be corrected.

    We will take another look at Doff Assignment XP gain as a whole in the near future, and see if it's reasonable to consider any sort of systemic increases. But we aren't going to add back in a bug, or revert a fix to such an obvious error.


    But have you considered there is a problem with the system completely? The rate of XP gain is awful anyway - and from your metrics you could see (assumingly) that these high-xp gain missions where the popular ones, because they allowed people to gain a point or two a week?


    We are not all rabid grinders saying "give me what i want nao". Some of us want to play the game, and actually get somewhere in a reasonable timeframe. Some of us have jobs, university and school. We won't play, let alone spend money in a game that doesn't reward us for our time.


    Please don't do this to the game. The delta recruit event was a huge success, i cannot comprehend why anybody would think doing this is a good idea. You've seen the forums, you've seen reddit. You know people hate the way things are. What outcome are you guys expecting to this!?


    Please don't kill my favorite game. :(
    warp plasma can't melt neutronium beams
  • shurato2099shurato2099 Member Posts: 588 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    The main issue with the adjustment Borticus it that it already affects a lager problem that has existed since the launch of Delta Rising: The XP Curve.

    I for one have never understood why the curve wend from a "casual angle" to "climb mount Everest" in scale. While 10 levels were added to the cap and the Specialization System was added, most players were not happy with how much the XP gain was slowed down from Levels 50-60, especially how it forces mission replays to fill gaps between missions.

    One thing I can tell you, my fleet had about 70ish Gold Subscribers who loved STO. After DR launched and the XP grind was revealed, they canceled their subs, and half of them went to play Star Conflict (pre-PWE).

    What I'm trying to say is that if a player could go from Level 50-60 without having to replay missions, run PvE Queues, or DOFF like a madman, I think the community at large would be alot happier.

    Pretty much this. I, for one, don't care so much how long it takes to get from 50 to 60 as long as I'm not having to replay content to get there. Missions have been getting tacked on to the end of the DQ progression, which is nice enough, but with the main Delta missions level locked to such a degree that you can't simply sit down and play them through without having to grind in between, it destroys whatever flow the game-play may have had in the first place.
  • admiraltroikaadmiraltroika Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Yeah, pretty much. It's not even like it's unbalanced-- you can get spec points faster by shooting spaceships for a few hours.
  • smokeybacon90smokeybacon90 Member Posts: 2,252 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    words

    Extremely predictable response with the usual "near future" dismissal.

    This should have at least informed you of the woeful state of doffing rewards.
    EnYn9p9.jpg
  • sinnaj63sinnaj63 Member Posts: 33 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    kazabok wrote: »
    Why not fix in favour of DOFFing instead?

    Go with:

    100, 90, 80, 70, 60, 50, 40, 30, 20, 10

    Instead of:

    10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1


    There are two ways to level the floor.

    Yeah. The doff system right now is balanced for the game and XP requirements at launch. They just don't work with the immense amounts of Experience Required for Spec Points of Delta Rising. The only things that really did are first time playing rewards for missions and those doff missions.
  • admiraltroikaadmiraltroika Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    If y'all devs love Korean MMO style grinding mechanics so much, I suggest quitting your jobs and going to develop there, instead of torturing us.
  • dragonsbrethrendragonsbrethren Member Posts: 1,854 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    kazabok wrote: »
    Why not fix in favour of DOFFing instead?

    Go with:

    100, 90, 80, 70, 60, 50, 40, 30, 20, 10

    Instead of:

    10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1


    There are two ways to level the floor.
    Think about the implications that would have at low level. You already level way too fast off of doffing pre-50. It's no more fun than leveling too slowly.
  • grnlbrtnfrntgrnlbrtnfrnt Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    sometimes call "a bump in the floor."

    As in, if you have a big flat floor with one obvious bump in it, you don't raise the entire floor to the level of the bump. You take a hammer to that thing, and you fix it.

    maybe you should have just made the floor level in the first place
    [SIGPIC]PWE IS NOT A REPUTABLE COMPANY[/SIGPIC]
  • leviathan99#2867 leviathan99 Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Let me try and clear up a few misconceptions and possibly even cool some heads around here, regarding the Doffing XP adjustment. Fix. Let's call it what it is: we fixed an error in the code.

    When you see a string of numbers laid out as:

    10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 40, 3, 2, 1

    ... you don't presume it's correct. And once you've determined that the series has an inconsistency, you find yourself with what we in Design sometimes call "a bump in the floor."

    As in, if you have a big flat floor with one obvious bump in it, you don't raise the entire floor to the level of the bump. You take a hammer to that thing, and you fix it.

    This fix was not made with the conscious intention of decreasing anyone's enjoyment of the game, or ability to earn XP/CXP, or anything else we're currently being accused of. The fix was made because it is a fix -- a problem existed, and had to be corrected.

    So, yes: Doff Assignments with durations between 12 and 15.9 hours were awarding roughly 10x the amount of numerics they were designed to reward. I'm sorry if you assumed that was an intended part of the system, but it was, in fact, an egregious misplacement of a decimal place, and needed to be corrected.

    We will take another look at Doff Assignment XP gain as a whole in the near future, and see if it's reasonable to consider any sort of systemic increases. But we aren't going to add back in a bug, or revert a fix to such an obvious error.

    I wasn't super-upset about this and didn't post in any of the lead-up discussions to this as a result.

    I am of the opinion that Geoff Tuffli (I honestly don't remember his dev handle, he's pretty open about his name since there's a ship named after him) had some specific stuff in mind with some of these spikes up at certain points just like he had stuff in mind with common assignments awarding more than rare assignments (which was a concern Geko discussed). And, for that matter, some skills originally only appearing on low ranking duty officers.

    I'm not opposed to any of these changes you're doing or that Geko has proposed. I was honestly a skeptic of a lot of Geoff's decisions regarding the DOff system. And I am a huge fan of Geoff's and recognize we might not even have a DOff system without him. I think the changes I would propose would be things that Geko especially would LIKE for the most part.

    My concern here is that there were reasons not to have a level floor, Geoff understood what these were, and that leveling the floor creates issues if we don't understand why it wasn't level. I think you might be leveling a staircase here.
  • thutmosis85thutmosis85 Member Posts: 2,358 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Because systems cannot be maintained, improved, or expanded safely if they are built on inaccurate data.

    So "systems couldn't have been maintained, improved, or expanded" for the last 3 YEARS !? (since I'm pretty sure "Gorn Uprisings" etc have always been this way) ... well that actually makes sense ...
    Patch Notes : Resolved an Issue, where people would accidently experience Fun.
  • executiveoneexecutiveone Member Posts: 45 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    We will take another look at Doff Assignment XP gain as a whole in the near future, and see if it's reasonable to consider any sort of systemic increases. But we aren't going to add back in a bug, or revert a fix to such an obvious error.

    How about looking at XP gain across the board? If we didn't have such glacial progression after level 50, people wouldn't get so upset about this kind of thing.
  • leviathan99#2867 leviathan99 Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    So, yes: Doff Assignments with durations between 12 and 15.9 hours were awarding roughly 10x the amount of numerics they were designed to reward. I'm sorry if you assumed that was an intended part of the system, but it was, in fact, an egregious misplacement of a decimal place, and needed to be corrected.

    Bort, I want to address this specifically:

    I think I would agree more with your design instincts on this if I saw the pattern as you described it. But I also don't believe that was a formula error. I seem to recall Geoff explaining that he wanted an assymetrical distribution like that such that playing the DOff assignments once or twice a day yielded more reward than playing them a few times a week or playing continuously. Basically, the high multiplier level is the intended rate of play and longer and shorter DOff assignments are penalized for being too casual or too hardcore.

    That actually makes a certain amount of sense to me. I am not in any way questioning your decision to change the metrics to have more internal logic but I DO think that what you're reading as an error was a deliberate design feature.
  • kazabokkazabok Member Posts: 230 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Think about the implications that would have at low level. You already level way too fast off of doffing pre-50. It's no more fun than leveling too slowly.


    But that doesn't effect the game negatively at all, all those low level missions scale so it doesn't matter when you hit 50.

    It's the choke in the 50-60 range that's the problem. And then again when you want to gather spec points.
  • dragonsbrethrendragonsbrethren Member Posts: 1,854 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    How about looking at XP gain across the board? If we didn't have such glacial progression after level 50, people wouldn't get so upset about this kind of thing.

    Across the board would also require pre-50 to be slowed. Something I'm very much in favor of, but might be a "be careful what you wish for" for other players.

    I personally think a smooth curve would be better than the current one, where the lead up to 50 goes very quickly, then slows down significantly.

    That said, I raised a delta recruit to 60 recently and I still think people make too much of a stink about how long it takes. But I had a bonus XP week and these 12 hour doff assignments to help.
  • carlosbflycarlosbfly Member Posts: 682 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    The main issue with the adjustment Borticus it that it already affects a lager problem that has existed since the launch of Delta Rising: The XP Curve.

    I for one have never understood why the curve wend from a "casual angle" to "climb mount Everest" in scale. While 10 levels were added to the cap and the Specialization System was added, most players were not happy with how much the XP gain was slowed down from Levels 50-60, especially how it forces mission replays to fill gaps between missions.

    One thing I can tell you, my fleet had about 70ish Gold Subscribers who loved STO. After DR launched and the XP grind was revealed, they canceled their subs, and half of them went to play Star Conflict (pre-PWE).

    What I'm trying to say is that if a player could go from Level 50-60 without having to replay missions, run PvE Queues, or DOFF like a madman, I think the community at large would be alot happier.

    Alas, this is their total logic block when it comes to the player experience - they only see ways to nerf and will execute that with immediate haste but take ages (if even at all) to buff and address consistent gameplay concerns (and these primary concerns have been loudly broadcast for over six months following Delta Rising with practically zero change).

    The extreme lack of progression past Level 50, no places to generate remotely decent exp through active missions and the deadzone of endgame queues are still an unescapable issue in this game.

    The issue of exp gain when DOFFing should have been something addressed NOW. In the same moment they are nerfing so it can be a compromise with the playerbase. But no, its got to be a nerf up first. Its got to be a hit on the community over and over again.

    Always so quick to take from the players/customers but not give.
  • rygelx16rygelx16 Member Posts: 161 Arc User
    edited May 2015

    This fix was not made with the conscious intention of decreasing anyone's enjoyment of the game, or ability to earn XP/CXP, or anything else we're currently being accused of. The fix was made because it is a fix -- a problem existed, and had to be corrected.

    Regardless of it's conscious intention or not, it had that result. Yes something was broken and needed to be fixed but in doing so other things were effected, conscious or otherwise. Thus those other things need to be fixed along with the intended fix, otherwise you have only traded one problem for another.

    So no one stopped and thought about how a huge nerf like this might effect the playerbase? needed or otherwise. Especially in a game so starved for XP that it has driven entire fleets away. That is the issue.
  • mindwindmindwind Member Posts: 12 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I'd be fine with leveling of doff xp, if we'd level the progression xp 1-50, 50-60, and 60+
    So if we're getting 10x nerf for some doff missions, will we get the 10x nerf for XP needed for 51-60+ too? It would make sense.

    Also let's level all the patrols around the map. Why are Delta and Tau Dewa so much more rewarding? If they can reward more than others, why can't certain doff assignments?

    Also, let's level all the enemies. Why would Heralds hit harder than Malon or Kazon or Remans?

    I could continue...

    I remember reading in another topic, that all the assignments were rewarding as intended. It was in a topic about assignments from former clusters that went missing. Unfortunately i can't find it right now to give a quote, but i remember reading it.

    For those who doffed a lot (like me) this is a serious let down. I hope that the number of concerned players will make you reconsider, there's still time until next patch on holodeck.
  • aelfwin1aelfwin1 Member Posts: 2,896 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    once you've determined that the series has an inconsistency, you find yourself with what we in Design sometimes call "a bump in the floor."

    You know ... , I remember another "bump in the floor" -- the Borg STF awards .
    Awards that once upon a time had the chance to give out a better prize / award in terms of multiple BNP's .
    I also remember those missions awarding 1440 Dil, once upon a time .

    It's funny , but what Cryptic called "a bump on the floor" with the STF's, I called a decent award ... , both in and of themselves, and as a award vs effort ratio .

    So, you'll forgive me if I think that both your definition and your solution to that "bump" , and this "bump" is similar both in terms of intelligence and benefit to the players .




    ... and I know you're smart enough to get the hint ...
  • phantrosityphantrosity Member Posts: 239 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Heretic wrote:
    We have several goals for the [duty officer] system:

    Provide significant non-combat gameplay that fills the desire for less overtly aggressive styles of gameplay.
    Create an engaging logistical mini-game.
    Provide a supplementary or even alternative character advancement mechanic - this will be useful for both factions, but in particular should somewhat ease advancement issues in the KDF.
    Establish a new set of parallel achievement goals and rewards in the form of the Commendation part of the system to give more goals for players who have hit cap.
    Provide alternative and supplementary mechanics and support to an array of frustrations apparent in existing systems such as the process for gathering anomalies, gaining high quality bridge officers, the Diplomacy grind, the lack of a parallel Diplomacy system on the KDF side, lack of usage for commodities, need for more Energy Credit sinks, and so on.

    Currently (thanks to the 12 hour missions), doffing fulfills the goals it was intended to.

    Removing the 12 hour experience boost will result in doffing no longer filling all its intended goals.
  • darkknightucfdarkknightucf Member Posts: 1,546 Media Corps
    edited May 2015
    Because systems cannot be maintained, improved, or expanded safely if they are built on inaccurate data.


    QFT.

    We just wish that this kind of mentality could be applied to the rest of the game, and with expedience as well as due diligence.

    Thank you.
    @Odenknight | U.S.S. Challenger | "Remember The Seven"
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