This game...meh...any time Cryptic's tried to make something the least bit challenging, the forums have flooded. Can tell that not many folks have been testing stuff on Tribble, cause the forums would have washed away already. Can't wait to see what happens as folks take their 1-3k DPS boats into the Elites for some of those new queues...but well, the laughter will be brief and bitter. Cause it will probably all be nerfed into the ground like everything else.
I totally agree with the fact that anytime Cryptic tried to make anything the least bit challenging the mobs came out and flooed the forums with the total cries of NERF IT because IT'S TOO HARD!
But I disagree with the testing on tribble part. I've done extensive testing on tribble in the past... put in extensive notes and bug reports and balance issues in the past... and every... single.. one of them was ignored... then it went live as it was and then they decided to listen to me. Tribble isn't a test server... it's a preview server. The only testers are that small focus group that because it's so small can not possibly find every single balance issue and bug issue out there... and because they're hand picked they know there are limits to how they can critize Cryptic without fallout coming down on that.
But yes... the last time I really tried to change something on tribble I remember asking for harder AI... better mobs and less HPs... so what did Cryptic say... it's too hard to to fix the AI and even if they did it would be met with cries of anguish and pain on the forums and they'd have to change it back anyway.
So yeah... I agree with the whole it's the communities fault... but it has nothing to do with testing on tribble... a lot of it has to do with Cryptic not listening to the feedback on tribble.. with because they know it'll be met with hatred by the community... or because it's too hard... or both.
Actually, what kind of power levels do the NPCs have?
I was under the impression that it was 50 all around, but that doesn't make sense with 40 (8x5) stacks of Leech doing a total of around -80 power (-2/stack).
I totally agree with the fact that anytime Cryptic tried to make anything the least bit challenging the mobs came out and flooed the forums with the total cries of NERF IT because IT'S TOO HARD!
But I disagree with the testing on tribble part. I've done extensive testing on tribble in the past... put in extensive notes and bug reports and balance issues in the past... and every... single.. one of them was ignored... then it went live as it was and then they decided to listen to me. Tribble isn't a test server... it's a preview server. The only testers are that small focus group that because it's so small can not possibly find every single balance issue and bug issue out there... and because they're hand picked they know there are limits to how they can critize Cryptic without fallout coming down on that.
But yes... the last time I really tried to change something on tribble I remember asking for harder AI... better mobs and less HPs... so what did Cryptic say... it's too hard to to fix the AI and even if they did it would be met with cries of anguish and pain on the forums and they'd have to change it back anyway.
So yeah... I agree with the whole it's the communities fault... but it has nothing to do with testing on tribble... a lot of it has to do with Cryptic not listening to the feedback on tribble.. with because they know it'll be met with hatred by the community... or because it's too hard... or both.
There was a bunch of stuff nerfed multiple times from being on Tribble...Elachi, Voth, Undine...course, the initial DR Advanced stuff kind of ignored everything even the DPS folks had told them. Times have changed, I guess...will have to see.
Actually, what kind of power levels do the NPCs have?
I was under the impression that it was 50 all around, but that doesn't make sense with 40 (8x5) stacks of Leech doing a total of around -80 power (-2/stack).
Much like their Perception doesn't work like player stuff, their Power doesn't work like player stuff. Like their abilities don't work like player stuff. They've got "special" variants of pretty much everything.
But hit up a shielded NPC without any debuffs/any penetration buffs...you'll see they're sporting 14% reduction from 50 Shield Power.
Every time PvP is brought up here, people like to claim that all PvP does it get things nerfed, and all PvPers want is to have everything nerfed.
Guess what? That's totally and completely false.
You know that FAW you love to use? Remember when it was useless the first time? Or the second time? Or broken the third time they fixed it?
Who do you think brought the fact that it was A) useless broken up to the Devs?
I'll give you a clue; it's not the people asking for new costume design choices.
Yes, PvPers do ask for things to be nerfed. Why? Because there really shouldn't be horribly OP things in the game. Does it make sense that you can get strings of 50k+ Crits on NPCs with Beam Arrays, while they sit there utterly defenseless and unable to move because you hit them with Ionic Turbulence? Where's the challenge in that?
Now, here is a short list of things that I can think of, off the top of my head, that PvP has gotten BUFFED. Yes, buffed. As in, boosted, or changed for the betterment of everyone.
FAW
Beam Overload
Torpedo Spread
Boarding Party (still a joke, though)
Gravity Well
Charged Particle Burst
Tachyon Beam (In case this was confusing, I'm talking about in the past, when it was buffed along with CPB. Not this past buff, where it was done to boost Command sales)
Tetryon and Polaron Procs
EPtW/A/E
Stun/Scramble Immunities
Targetting QoL improvements (screens aren't cluttered with mine/fighter spam)
Feedback Pulse
And that's not even everything, that's just a short list.
Here's some things that @jarvisandalfred suggested I bring up that people feel PvP HAS gotten nerfed, and why they were.
Surgical Strikes: Literally strings of 50k+ hits off of Beam Arrays, the second lowest (base) damage weapon in the game. And the Devs themselves were the ones who tested it and deemed, by their own metrics, that it was OP. Now, you can argue that you "need" it in PvE... but that's not the fault of PvPers or PvP; that's the FAW-centric game design that led to massive NPC HPs.
Ionic Turbulence: It still disables. It still has a -Res to it. It can just now be resisted, so you can't chain it with PSW/Viral Torp/IT. Also, it's not an "instant hit" anymore, it travels to it's target... just like Scramble Sensors, and torpedoes. Just as it should have from the start.
Viral Torp: It still does it's disable thing. It's just been changed so now the Immunity Resistance hard counter actually applies to it.
Beam Overload: Well, it was actually buffed... especially since everyone is PvE is stacking on massive levels of CrtD and BO now has a 100% CrtH.
PSW: Still does the same damage. Still stuns. Just can't be chained anymore.
CSV: Throw back example from way back when. I mean like June 2010 or thereabouts, for the sake of an example. CSV was bugged to give a +70% damage modifier (instead of it's intended +25%). When it was fixed, people blamed PvP.
I've never had a problem with PvPers, its the hardcore DPSers who do my head in.
#inb4hate
Let's look at mechanics.
-No healer needed for "end game" stfs
-No tank needed for "end game" stfs
-Bring dps, engage faw, mash space bar to success
-All pass/fail options revolve around killing enemies (with a few rare exceptions, ie: no actual strat besides "We come in peace, shoot to kill."
-Absolutely no positional awareness needed besides "Is my faw inflating my mad deeps by hitting every target possible on my screen regardless of if they cannot currently be damaged"
The trinity is a dev crutch, not a requirement for a good game.
I use the Undine engines so it's not so obvious when I light myself up with my own plasma torpedoes on my plasma torp boat so I'm not one who can talk about positional awareness.
This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
See, I'd tend to agree with paxdawn that if folks wanted more than ISA they could hit up HSE. How often do we see folks talking about HSE, eh?
I mean, these are the Elite PvE queues that exist (Space, yeah, I'm biased)...
The Vault: Ensnared (Elite): 2 queued, wait time --
Viscous Cycle (Elite): 1 queued, wait time 4:23
Storming the Spire (Elite): 0 queued, wait time --
The Breach (Elite): 0 queued, wait time --
The Battle of Korfez (Elite): 1 queued, wait time 3:04
Borg Disconnected (Elite): 3 queued, wait time --
Hive Onslaught (Elite): 1 queued, wait time --
Viscous, Storming, Breach, and Hive are just as dead at Advanced. Disconnected has 1 queued, 0 playing, and a 1:30 wait.
They're adding more queues (remember when Geko said there were too many queues) with S10...and they're actually adding Normal, Advanced, and Elite for them.
But in the end, dismissing what those DPS folks are doing as not being a challenge might be the case if everybody and the neighbor's dog was doing it. Cryptic didn't present them with a challenge - they've created a challenge for themselves. It's not my kind of fun, not my kind of challenge, but I can't do what they do and it'd be a challenge for me to do even a quarter of what they do...but it's not my kind of fun and it's hard not to picture it as the "hogger raid" sort of thing as mentioned in another thread. But I'm upfront about it with my mixed message of "kudos - lol, stealing candy from a baby faster and faster - but nope, I suck and can't do it"...trippy, eh?
This game isn't about challenges, though - kind of why there's so much hatred for the PvP and DPS folks, no? Cause they're into challenging stuff, even if they're different kinds of challenges...though, honestly, what PvPers aren't doing the same thing in trying to get their builds better and better to frag another guy?
This game...meh...any time Cryptic's tried to make something the least bit challenging, the forums have flooded. Can tell that not many folks have been testing stuff on Tribble, cause the forums would have washed away already. Can't wait to see what happens as folks take their 1-3k DPS boats into the Elites for some of those new queues...but well, the laughter will be brief and bitter. Cause it will probably all be nerfed into the ground like everything else.
This so much. It seems that Cryptic doesnt doesnt understand that being challenged breeds improvement and innovation. Why challenge players and keep them involved when you can have them chase thier own tails and look down on the ones who are asking for the game to be a challenge? Challenge means effort.
This so much. It seems that Cryptic doesnt doesnt understand that being challenged breeds improvement and innovation. Why challenge players and keep them involved when you can have them chase thier own tails and look down on the ones who are asking for the game to be a challenge? Challenge means effort.
I think you missed virus's point though. Not everyone wants Challenge(tm). Some want to faceroll their way through space pew-pew. Some want 'challenge' in facerolling through challenge-in-name-only space pew-pew for phat lewtz. The ones that want challenge that requires improvement and effort, well, there's a reason a certain other bright shiny new sci-fi game is desperately casualizing all of its content. There's just never enough of that sort of audience around.
Science is officially an overpowered God class now. I'm going to give this cheese away so hopefully those that want to use it will **** enough people off that Cryptic will nerf the ultimate "I WIN" combo.
Every now and then Ive come across a fed premade of all science which picks separate targets each and then fires subnucleonic beam followed by viral matrix. The whole klingon team is then disabled for 15 seconds from being able to use counters or any skills by subnucleonic beam, and followed by viral matrix disables you completely.
Again, the subnucleionic beam prevents you from using a counter so followed by viral matrix you are dead. Knowing this now if anyone wants a premade God team, have all science officers in cloak picking separate targets, fire subnucleonic beam followed by viral matrix and you win, free kills YAY!:mad:
I hope the Klingons start using this strategy as much as the feds have to get this damn overpower pvp game breaking combo NERFED! An all science team klingon premade would be an undefeatable GOD TEAM with this strategy. I'm a science officer myself and I want it nerfed, its cheesy as hell. Subnucleonic beam has no counter so I see the solution here as providing a counter to subnucleonic beam.
Average folks kind of did that...and that's why Cryptic made the change in the first place. It was a heinous change, and so they changed it again.
I'm sorry, but you're working hard to twist things now .
Which "average folks" made & posted vids for the lolz of quick runs of ISA that got progressivly worse with each less equipped / lower tier ships used until we're finally dow to pets alone?
Your comparison to "average is equal to a pug VS ... say a premade of the Pandans or the Spanish Inquisition premade back in the day .
And if you still have trouble believing me, look at your own numbers:
None of these runs come close to the couple minute ISA records that were posted pre DR by the DPS crew, thus none of them confirm your claim that it was "the average" player who got the changes made .
If you have some ISA Pug numbers pre-DR, let's see them .
I'll be curious myself as to how they compare, and how they hold up your claim of "only 1-2K extra DPS is needed post-DR .
Cause yeah, one might want to point to those DPS guys and their videos...but uh, yeah, they're not the only ones making a mockery of the content.,
The difference is between mockery and public mockery .
Your attempts at blaming the general population (who does not hang out on the DPS channels nor on PESTF) is a very bad comparison, and it does not hold up to the light of day when those who made the trololol bids don't even want to be associated with the " average " STO player, as they don't want to "carry" them .
I've got no idea why you posted that in reply to what I had said there, which was the following:
"Average folks. They're the Evil Ones. They're the folks that Cryptic notices. That majority...is who Cryptic caters to and adjusts things for...
Average folks doing things too quickly, there are going to be some changes. Average folks doing too much damage, there are going to be some changes."
Has what to do with your quote/reply there?
I pointed to my opinion that there have been constantly more adjustments made to the game in it's first 4 years of existence at the behest of the PVP (QA) requests then there has been to fix things because the avarage player did stuffs .
I pointed to my opinion that there have been constantly more adjustments made to the game in it's first 4 years of existence at the behest of the PVP (QA) requests then there has been to fix things because the avarage player did stuffs .
That is a bold postulate, do you have any proof?
By the way maybe you misunderstood Virus but I would say that he blames no one, as the Devs adjust the game to the metrics and not the crying of any particular lobby.
Cryptic Studios' development process is centered on efficiently structured teams working together in a collaborative atmosphere to develop high quality games. The goal is to deliver unparalleled gaming experiences that appeal to a wide range of audiences and to iterate based on early prototyping and vertical slices.
^^Here a Quote from the Cryptic hp, which clearly states that they appeal to a wide range of audience by which they clearly mean the average player and not the hardcore PvPer or PvEer. Would they adjust the game difficulty to the DPS League it would not look like it is today. All the so called mocking videos, as you call them are about fooling around and having fun, at best showing the average unorganized pugs how OP teamwork can be. If you see it as an insult then that is maybe on you and only in your mind but not intended.
By the way maybe you misunderstood Virus but I would say that he blames no one, as the Devs adjust the game to the metrics and not the crying of any particular lobby.
They adjust the game in whatever way they feel will generate the most revenue.
I would argue that they don't always settle upon the adjustments which will generate the most revenue, but that doesn't change how Cryptic views the changes or their process.
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
It's something of a right of passage for things that actually hit on Tribble, for testers to find and report exploits and major issues, for these same issue to go intact to Holodeck. THAT WAS PVPERS' FAULT ALSO!
Running endless ISAs to perfect your PvE build and pick up an additional 0.5k DPS.
Farming for Marks.
Playing through the same content you already did, but under the guise of "omg look, new recruit!" to make you feel better about it.
Chat.
And then there's, PvP. Actually challenging content that's never the same.
Maybe that is the issue. Players restricting themselves to missions like ISA. If you think ISA is already easy for you, you and your folks go on to HSE. The way I see it, ISA is an entry level mission.
There is only handful of people who can make HSE look easy. Absent of those handful of people, HSE is a good end game content since the amount of surviving, tanking, healing, Dps, coordination you need to do.
End game content in this game revolves around the tailor.
The "end game" PvE in this game is essentially the difficulty of content you use to level in other games. This means that either queues are meant to be the way you level (unsure of how rewards are now, but I would assume its still 4000 ISA's to capped spec tree) or are actual end game content.
Let's look at mechanics.
-No healer needed for "end game" stfs
-No tank needed for "end game" stfs
-Bring dps, engage faw, mash space bar to success
-All pass/fail options revolve around killing enemies (with a few rare exceptions, ie: no actual strat besides "We come in peace, shoot to kill."
-Absolutely no positional awareness needed besides "Is my faw inflating my mad deeps by hitting every target possible on my screen regardless of if they cannot currently be damaged"
Mashing space bar is bad for Dps. All weapons, beams,cannons, torps,etc are viable. All ships are viable. You don't even need tac nor scimitar to finish end game content. Bad healers, bad tanks are the same as bad DPsers.
The question really is what your objective is. If Your objective is to finish all endgame content, then all ships, roles and weapons are viable.
If your objective is put your name below or above Ryan's, feliseans or within Dps prime(top 15 DPSers) then you will be restricting yourself to several ships, tac toon, high Dps builds.
But then again those who complained about lack of tanks, support and healers, arent aiming for top 15 Dps league are you?
Player A) 25963
Player 9095
Player Me) 6292
Player D) 1944
Player E) 943
...haven't flown a B'rel since sometime before DR launched.
Failed 2:20 minutes in.
Why?
Player A popped the first Gen 30s before the fourth Gen got popped. It didn't matter though. Player D and E had managed to pop the first Gen 3s after the fourth. What? Yeah, the two of them went right while three of us went left.
Still, if Player D and E had been gone left...the 13k.5k from Player A, my 7.4k, the 2.4k from pets, if Player C's 6.5k had been more than just 13s of firing (Player A was 37s, I was 46s), had Player D's 1.9k and Player E's 1.1k been added into it...would have been fine. Not sure what Player A nor Player C were doing after that fourth Gen went down....but yeah...if not popping the Gen so early, if not two players going right, if not shooting at butterflies...er...
Hardcore Trollfest.
And damn it, I'd just started to figure out how to get the nose pointed in the right direction without spinning all over the place. :P
It's all Patrick's fault...thought experiment, uh huh.
Saying you need a good healer in PvE is a stupid attempt to make it look like even by far as complex as PvP. If you can't hold your ground in PvE, then you have a problem.
A balanced and fun PvP environment equals to endless content. The matches build on their own instead of having the devs creating every single queue. All they need to do is to stop listening to PvE carebears, make a PvP environment listening to actual experienced PvPers and leave it running then. It's infinite content, no match's identical to one another.
If I'm a 14 years old basement-dwelling min maxer... How can the Lead Dev be so stupid to offend the players? No wonder he's hated.
What's the total number of active Bridge Officer abilities, Captain abilities, consoles et cetera? Add all significant passive perks and you got a balancing nightmare.
As I wrote in another thread:
In the PvE storyline, we - the players - are exceptional bad-arses. We are supposed to be OP by design. Any upgrade that serverely improves our overperformance even more does not impair our suspension of disbelief at all. Because it fits nicely into the narrative. Tricobalts one-shotting a Borg Cube, whats the problem?
So, balance between abilities, traits, consoles carries little value in PvE. Why should a PvE player insist on a higher standard of balance, that ultimately is of little significance for his gaming experience?
I am pretty sure that Gecko doesn't like his employees to waste too much time solving balancing issues. Balance is an important prerequisite for PvP, not so much for PvE. At least not for this games PvE content.
The shrinkage of the PvP community is bad news for anyone who puts some value into balance.
Let's look at mechanics.
-No healer needed for "end game" stfs
-No tank needed for "end game" stfs
-Bring dps, engage faw, mash space bar to success
-All pass/fail options revolve around killing enemies (with a few rare exceptions, ie: no actual strat besides "We come in peace, shoot to kill."
-Absolutely no positional awareness needed besides "Is my faw inflating my mad deeps by hitting every target possible on my screen regardless of if they cannot currently be damaged"
The trinity is a dev crutch, not a requirement for a good game.
CursedWolf (and all those who share his viewpoint):
I'll ask this, how are you supposed to generate / promote "different play styles" without giving "distinct roles" - ala a "trinity playstyle / 'Dev Crutch'"?
I'm not talking DPS via Cannons / BFaW / Sci "magic", I'm talking actual distinct tasks that are "borderline necessary" for mission completion such as "survival nut" who attempts to take the big hits from the enemy, or the "control freak" that messes up the opposition's maneuvers, or the "health nut" that wants to make sure the entire squad survives without a death...
Now, before you "rant onto me" about me spelling out the "Dev Crutch", I don't necessarily want those specific tasks. To repeat, I'm looking for distinct playstyles that don't revolve all around the same thing, such as DPS DPS DeePS Moar Dakka... Other options (if they exist) are more than welcome...
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
PvP is only challenging when you get lucky enough to run into another premade with your premade.
How often do you think that happens at Korvat?
Are you going to now deny that PvPers have had a long standing issue of bringing in new players to the community because of their very own behavior?
Challenging my ***.
No, you're correct - a lot of it has to do with past behaviors of premades trolling the queues. I guess we can blame the fact that we were lied to about tournament and premade queues being "in testing and to be released soon!" in July of 2010. That's a direct quote, btw.
But I think you'll find that roflstomping through pugs and "easier targets" gets very old, very quickly. Premades only usually play 2-3 matches like that before disbanding, unless they're dedicated to trolling or they're hopefully trying to come across another premade that is doing the same.
That's no different than PvE though. Even just recently, there's issues with people covering up entries with Cover Shields, preventing others from completing the missions. There will always be trolls. They just sometimes happen to be more noticeable and "harsh."
Korvat/Kerrat? It's an Open PvP world. It's going to be an open melee by design. If you run into a premade there, you either fight them or run. That's kind of the whole nature of an Open PvP zone. You don't have to fight them.
Maybe that is the issue. Players restricting themselves to missions like ISA. If you think ISA is already easy for you, you and your folks go on to HSE. The way I see it, ISA is an entry level mission.
There is only handful of people who can make HSE look easy. Absent of those handful of people, HSE is a good end game content since the amount of surviving, tanking, healing, Dps, coordination you need to do.
You're quite right, HSE is the one place where actual teamwork, coordination, and more than just "raw deeps!" isn't the answer.
I haven't played it in a while, but the last few times I did, either broken or marred with those 100k+ megahit one-shots that just pop you in the blink of an eye before you even have a chance to react. I've avoided it because that was just not fun. Is that still the case?
CursedWolf (and all those who share his viewpoint):
I'll ask this, how are you supposed to generate / promote "different play styles" without giving "distinct roles" - ala a "trinity playstyle / 'Dev Crutch'"?
A torp boat is a different play style from a FAWboat. Even a plasma torp boat is a different style from a rainbow or transphasic boat. Slow destructible projectiles with splash damage to you if you're too close (but you don't want to be too far for your torps to reach the target before it is killed by someone else).
Cannon boats are a different play style from the NASCAR broadsiders.
A thin skinned BoP is different from most escorts.
Projected cc like grav well and TBR are a different style from point blank cc like soliton wave and EWP.
You've got boats that need defense to live and boats that can park and shoot.
You've got shield tankers, hull tankers, and glass cannons.
In a game without a trinity everyone should be able to look after themselves. If your thing is playing whackamole with healthbars and nothing more, you should be bored. Looking after your self should include knowing when to get out of dodge when your cooldowns run low. Big, slow ships generally don't need to run. Thinner skinned ships have to book it but easily can.
What would help is if single target was given more use in PvE, as in right now the answer to every question is AoE.
This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
It'd be helpful if you re-stated what you believe the primary cause(s) to be. I believe it's Resists + Regen that you have a concern with, but I think you can state your case more clearly than I can regurgitate it.
And I'll re-state the wrench that I'll throw in the gears ... massive alpha strikes and SNB coordination are very real concerns on the opposite end of this spectrum. If we toned down Resists and Regen, it would only serve to amplify these tactics and further destabilize many PvP encounters.
...and from that fateful day was born the seed that created STO: The FAWgasm. A PvPer ruined the game, sowing the seed of FAWdy-FAWdy-PEW in the game which led to the eventual rise of the DBB/OD Scimitar and the discord amongst the PvE folks.
/cough
No? Well, everybody else was playing...I figured I'd try too!
What? There were like a billion posts from Engineers in Cruisers throughout other threads wanting their vengeance against those pesky Tac Captains in their Escorts with their pew-pew-Cannons? Okay, but that's not as exciting and as entertaining as joining in with the masses to ignore what little effect PvPers and DPSers have on the game.
A torp boat is a different play style from a FAWboat. Even a plasma torp boat is a different style from a rainbow or transphasic boat. Slow destructible projectiles with splash damage to you if you're too close (but you don't want to be too far for your torps to reach the target before it is killed by someone else).
Cannon boats are a different play style from the NASCAR broadsiders.
A thin skinned BoP is different from most escorts.
Projected cc like grav well and TBR are a different style from point blank cc like soliton wave and EWP.
You've got boats that need defense to live and boats that can park and shoot.
You've got shield tankers, hull tankers, and glass cannons.
In a game without a trinity everyone should be able to look after themselves. If your thing is playing whackamole with healthbars and nothing more, you should be bored. Looking after your self should include knowing when to get out of dodge when your cooldowns run low. Big, slow ships generally don't need to run. Thinner skinned ships have to book it but easily can.
What would help is if single target was given more use in PvE, as in right now the answer to every question is AoE.
Where's the campaign to make a 400 Part Gen Science Crafting L15 trait supported 125 Aux GW III deal in total approximately the same amounts of damage that 10x Gold Mk XIV Antiproton arrays do to a single target over the course of BFaW III?
Reason I ask this is so that my GW III can do the same amounts of damage in it's one minute cooldown cycle that your Scimitar is dishing out with it's 5 forward weapon arrays. And yes, I am sort of taking into account my remaining weapon damage against the fact that my skill is a CMDR slot and BFAW is a LtCmdr slot and the cooldown issues...
Oh wait, make it 300 or so Part Gens. The 400 level should be that same Scim popping out of battle cloak with it's loadout of 5x SROs...
There. I'll play your game. I'll be more than willing to leave DPS as the "yardstick" of STO.
On that note, I'd love to hear your suggestions on what to give the Galaxy class (and all remaining engineers) so that they can keep up with my massive GWs and your 5x AP arrays - it might not have to be as drastic as my GW example, because Galaxies already slot 4x AP arrays on the fore and we can easily tweak those LtCmdr Engineering skill slots...
And let's talk about giving a Science and Engineering equivalent of GDF/FoMM, or making our powers give us something else that the tactical lacks - I mean, miracle worker does allow an engineer to live longer, therefore keeping his total DPS up, but in the rare cases that MW would have kept an engineer alive but the tac dead, the engie doesn't do 15-20 seconds worth of tactical damage - so some sort of buff is needed here...
This way, "my" playstyle of Fed Sci in a Fed Science ship with Polaron Weaponry can keep pace with your max-DPS Scimitar style... And Fred who loves Engies and cruisers can match Scim numbers, too...
Either that, or let's open up the possibility of "making the other classes needed" - I mean, what if the spheres of ISA all EPtEed to the far corners of a 20km range rather than the far ends of the map? This way the 5 pack of Scims have a little work to do (split up and chase down their own "corner"), but that Sci with GW III kept them clustered together for 4x Scims to mow down... Or that Elite Tac Cube that one-hits a Tac-Scim will fire it's "OHK" attack on the local tank that's geared to survive it (instead of at the Scim) and leave the Scims to DeePS away...
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
There. I'll play your game. I'll be more than willing to leave DPS as the "yardstick" of STO.
On that note, I'd love to hear your suggestions on what to give the Galaxy class (and all remaining engineers) so that they can keep up with my massive GWs and your 5x AP arrays - it might not have to be as drastic as my GW example, because Galaxies already slot 4x AP arrays on the fore and we can easily tweak those LtCmdr Engineering skill slots...
And let's talk about giving a Science and Engineering equivalent of GDF/FoMM, or making our powers give us something else that the tactical lacks - I mean, miracle worker does allow an engineer to live longer, therefore keeping his total DPS up, but in the rare cases that MW would have kept an engineer alive but the tac dead, the engie doesn't do 15-20 seconds worth of tactical damage - so some sort of buff is needed here...
Trying to convince people that Engineers could use a buff is futile. I've tried it. You get two basic responses:
MY ENG IS FINE, L2P N00B! I CAN HIT 50K IN AN ENG
Tanks are totally needed in like, two of the queues. They're fine as is.
Comments
Heh, that made me think of this...
LF4M...Tailor Elite! PM me!
Only if they put back in all the old /commands that were removed because of the simply amazing possibilities that they allowed.
Forever sexy, and I know it.
I totally agree with the fact that anytime Cryptic tried to make anything the least bit challenging the mobs came out and flooed the forums with the total cries of NERF IT because IT'S TOO HARD!
But I disagree with the testing on tribble part. I've done extensive testing on tribble in the past... put in extensive notes and bug reports and balance issues in the past... and every... single.. one of them was ignored... then it went live as it was and then they decided to listen to me. Tribble isn't a test server... it's a preview server. The only testers are that small focus group that because it's so small can not possibly find every single balance issue and bug issue out there... and because they're hand picked they know there are limits to how they can critize Cryptic without fallout coming down on that.
But yes... the last time I really tried to change something on tribble I remember asking for harder AI... better mobs and less HPs... so what did Cryptic say... it's too hard to to fix the AI and even if they did it would be met with cries of anguish and pain on the forums and they'd have to change it back anyway.
So yeah... I agree with the whole it's the communities fault... but it has nothing to do with testing on tribble... a lot of it has to do with Cryptic not listening to the feedback on tribble.. with because they know it'll be met with hatred by the community... or because it's too hard... or both.
Actually, what kind of power levels do the NPCs have?
I was under the impression that it was 50 all around, but that doesn't make sense with 40 (8x5) stacks of Leech doing a total of around -80 power (-2/stack).
There was a bunch of stuff nerfed multiple times from being on Tribble...Elachi, Voth, Undine...course, the initial DR Advanced stuff kind of ignored everything even the DPS folks had told them. Times have changed, I guess...will have to see.
Much like their Perception doesn't work like player stuff, their Power doesn't work like player stuff. Like their abilities don't work like player stuff. They've got "special" variants of pretty much everything.
But hit up a shielded NPC without any debuffs/any penetration buffs...you'll see they're sporting 14% reduction from 50 Shield Power.
I've never had a problem with PvPers, its the hardcore DPSers who do my head in.
#inb4hate
The trinity is a dev crutch, not a requirement for a good game.
I use the Undine engines so it's not so obvious when I light myself up with my own plasma torpedoes on my plasma torp boat so I'm not one who can talk about positional awareness.
This so much. It seems that Cryptic doesnt doesnt understand that being challenged breeds improvement and innovation. Why challenge players and keep them involved when you can have them chase thier own tails and look down on the ones who are asking for the game to be a challenge? Challenge means effort.
I think you missed virus's point though. Not everyone wants Challenge(tm). Some want to faceroll their way through space pew-pew. Some want 'challenge' in facerolling through challenge-in-name-only space pew-pew for phat lewtz. The ones that want challenge that requires improvement and effort, well, there's a reason a certain other bright shiny new sci-fi game is desperately casualizing all of its content. There's just never enough of that sort of audience around.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=131673
I'm sorry, but you're working hard to twist things now .
Which "average folks" made & posted vids for the lolz of quick runs of ISA that got progressivly worse with each less equipped / lower tier ships used until we're finally dow to pets alone?
Your comparison to "average is equal to a pug VS ... say a premade of the Pandans or the Spanish Inquisition premade back in the day .
And if you still have trouble believing me, look at your own numbers:
None of these runs come close to the couple minute ISA records that were posted pre DR by the DPS crew, thus none of them confirm your claim that it was "the average" player who got the changes made .
If you have some ISA Pug numbers pre-DR, let's see them .
I'll be curious myself as to how they compare, and how they hold up your claim of "only 1-2K extra DPS is needed post-DR .
The difference is between mockery and public mockery .
Your attempts at blaming the general population (who does not hang out on the DPS channels nor on PESTF) is a very bad comparison, and it does not hold up to the light of day when those who made the trololol bids don't even want to be associated with the " average " STO player, as they don't want to "carry" them .
I pointed to my opinion that there have been constantly more adjustments made to the game in it's first 4 years of existence at the behest of the PVP (QA) requests then there has been to fix things because the avarage player did stuffs .
.... sorry but gotta run ...
this is going to go down well with your thread starting post op. not sure yet if i should comment beyond this.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
That is a bold postulate, do you have any proof?
By the way maybe you misunderstood Virus but I would say that he blames no one, as the Devs adjust the game to the metrics and not the crying of any particular lobby.
^^Here a Quote from the Cryptic hp, which clearly states that they appeal to a wide range of audience by which they clearly mean the average player and not the hardcore PvPer or PvEer. Would they adjust the game difficulty to the DPS League it would not look like it is today. All the so called mocking videos, as you call them are about fooling around and having fun, at best showing the average unorganized pugs how OP teamwork can be. If you see it as an insult then that is maybe on you and only in your mind but not intended.
I would argue that they don't always settle upon the adjustments which will generate the most revenue, but that doesn't change how Cryptic views the changes or their process.
Tissue? Or Tampon?
Maybe that is the issue. Players restricting themselves to missions like ISA. If you think ISA is already easy for you, you and your folks go on to HSE. The way I see it, ISA is an entry level mission.
There is only handful of people who can make HSE look easy. Absent of those handful of people, HSE is a good end game content since the amount of surviving, tanking, healing, Dps, coordination you need to do.
Mashing space bar is bad for Dps. All weapons, beams,cannons, torps,etc are viable. All ships are viable. You don't even need tac nor scimitar to finish end game content. Bad healers, bad tanks are the same as bad DPsers.
The question really is what your objective is. If Your objective is to finish all endgame content, then all ships, roles and weapons are viable.
If your objective is put your name below or above Ryan's, feliseans or within Dps prime(top 15 DPSers) then you will be restricting yourself to several ships, tac toon, high Dps builds.
But then again those who complained about lack of tanks, support and healers, arent aiming for top 15 Dps league are you?
edit2: Okay, how about this build?
http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skillplanner/?build=meenabrel_5343
For this failed run...
Player A) 25963
Player
Player Me) 6292
Player D) 1944
Player E) 943
...haven't flown a B'rel since sometime before DR launched.
Failed 2:20 minutes in.
Why?
Player A popped the first Gen 30s before the fourth Gen got popped. It didn't matter though. Player D and E had managed to pop the first Gen 3s after the fourth. What? Yeah, the two of them went right while three of us went left.
Still, if Player D and E had been gone left...the 13k.5k from Player A, my 7.4k, the 2.4k from pets, if Player C's 6.5k had been more than just 13s of firing (Player A was 37s, I was 46s), had Player D's 1.9k and Player E's 1.1k been added into it...would have been fine. Not sure what Player A nor Player C were doing after that fourth Gen went down....but yeah...if not popping the Gen so early, if not two players going right, if not shooting at butterflies...er...
Hardcore Trollfest.
And damn it, I'd just started to figure out how to get the nose pointed in the right direction without spinning all over the place. :P
It's all Patrick's fault...thought experiment, uh huh.
A balanced and fun PvP environment equals to endless content. The matches build on their own instead of having the devs creating every single queue. All they need to do is to stop listening to PvE carebears, make a PvP environment listening to actual experienced PvPers and leave it running then. It's infinite content, no match's identical to one another.
If I'm a 14 years old basement-dwelling min maxer... How can the Lead Dev be so stupid to offend the players? No wonder he's hated.
As I wrote in another thread:
In the PvE storyline, we - the players - are exceptional bad-arses. We are supposed to be OP by design. Any upgrade that serverely improves our overperformance even more does not impair our suspension of disbelief at all. Because it fits nicely into the narrative. Tricobalts one-shotting a Borg Cube, whats the problem?
So, balance between abilities, traits, consoles carries little value in PvE. Why should a PvE player insist on a higher standard of balance, that ultimately is of little significance for his gaming experience?
I am pretty sure that Gecko doesn't like his employees to waste too much time solving balancing issues. Balance is an important prerequisite for PvP, not so much for PvE. At least not for this games PvE content.
The shrinkage of the PvP community is bad news for anyone who puts some value into balance.
Oh The LoLs.
PvP is only challenging when you get lucky enough to run into another premade with your premade.
How often do you think that happens at Korvat?
Are you going to now deny that PvPers have had a long standing issue of bringing in new players to the community because of their very own behavior?
Challenging my ***.
CursedWolf (and all those who share his viewpoint):
I'll ask this, how are you supposed to generate / promote "different play styles" without giving "distinct roles" - ala a "trinity playstyle / 'Dev Crutch'"?
I'm not talking DPS via Cannons / BFaW / Sci "magic", I'm talking actual distinct tasks that are "borderline necessary" for mission completion such as "survival nut" who attempts to take the big hits from the enemy, or the "control freak" that messes up the opposition's maneuvers, or the "health nut" that wants to make sure the entire squad survives without a death...
Now, before you "rant onto me" about me spelling out the "Dev Crutch", I don't necessarily want those specific tasks. To repeat, I'm looking for distinct playstyles that don't revolve all around the same thing, such as DPS DPS DeePS Moar Dakka... Other options (if they exist) are more than welcome...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
No, you're correct - a lot of it has to do with past behaviors of premades trolling the queues. I guess we can blame the fact that we were lied to about tournament and premade queues being "in testing and to be released soon!" in July of 2010. That's a direct quote, btw.
But I think you'll find that roflstomping through pugs and "easier targets" gets very old, very quickly. Premades only usually play 2-3 matches like that before disbanding, unless they're dedicated to trolling or they're hopefully trying to come across another premade that is doing the same.
That's no different than PvE though. Even just recently, there's issues with people covering up entries with Cover Shields, preventing others from completing the missions. There will always be trolls. They just sometimes happen to be more noticeable and "harsh."
Korvat/Kerrat? It's an Open PvP world. It's going to be an open melee by design. If you run into a premade there, you either fight them or run. That's kind of the whole nature of an Open PvP zone. You don't have to fight them.
You're quite right, HSE is the one place where actual teamwork, coordination, and more than just "raw deeps!" isn't the answer.
I haven't played it in a while, but the last few times I did, either broken or marred with those 100k+ megahit one-shots that just pop you in the blink of an eye before you even have a chance to react. I've avoided it because that was just not fun. Is that still the case?
It would be a breath of fresh air.
A torp boat is a different play style from a FAWboat. Even a plasma torp boat is a different style from a rainbow or transphasic boat. Slow destructible projectiles with splash damage to you if you're too close (but you don't want to be too far for your torps to reach the target before it is killed by someone else).
Cannon boats are a different play style from the NASCAR broadsiders.
A thin skinned BoP is different from most escorts.
Projected cc like grav well and TBR are a different style from point blank cc like soliton wave and EWP.
You've got boats that need defense to live and boats that can park and shoot.
You've got shield tankers, hull tankers, and glass cannons.
In a game without a trinity everyone should be able to look after themselves. If your thing is playing whackamole with healthbars and nothing more, you should be bored. Looking after your self should include knowing when to get out of dodge when your cooldowns run low. Big, slow ships generally don't need to run. Thinner skinned ships have to book it but easily can.
What would help is if single target was given more use in PvE, as in right now the answer to every question is AoE.
It also doesn't help that FAW is the best (widely available*) solution for both Single Target and AoE.
Because that makes a lot of sense.
*Surgical Strikes is better for Single Target (even post nerf), but it's not easily accessible to most ships, especially Surgical Strikes 3.
It's all Hilbert's fault...
...and from that fateful day was born the seed that created STO: The FAWgasm. A PvPer ruined the game, sowing the seed of FAWdy-FAWdy-PEW in the game which led to the eventual rise of the DBB/OD Scimitar and the discord amongst the PvE folks.
/cough
No? Well, everybody else was playing...I figured I'd try too!
What? There were like a billion posts from Engineers in Cruisers throughout other threads wanting their vengeance against those pesky Tac Captains in their Escorts with their pew-pew-Cannons? Okay, but that's not as exciting and as entertaining as joining in with the masses to ignore what little effect PvPers and DPSers have on the game.
Where's the campaign to make a 400 Part Gen Science Crafting L15 trait supported 125 Aux GW III deal in total approximately the same amounts of damage that 10x Gold Mk XIV Antiproton arrays do to a single target over the course of BFaW III?
Reason I ask this is so that my GW III can do the same amounts of damage in it's one minute cooldown cycle that your Scimitar is dishing out with it's 5 forward weapon arrays. And yes, I am sort of taking into account my remaining weapon damage against the fact that my skill is a CMDR slot and BFAW is a LtCmdr slot and the cooldown issues...
Oh wait, make it 300 or so Part Gens. The 400 level should be that same Scim popping out of battle cloak with it's loadout of 5x SROs...
There. I'll play your game. I'll be more than willing to leave DPS as the "yardstick" of STO.
On that note, I'd love to hear your suggestions on what to give the Galaxy class (and all remaining engineers) so that they can keep up with my massive GWs and your 5x AP arrays - it might not have to be as drastic as my GW example, because Galaxies already slot 4x AP arrays on the fore and we can easily tweak those LtCmdr Engineering skill slots...
And let's talk about giving a Science and Engineering equivalent of GDF/FoMM, or making our powers give us something else that the tactical lacks - I mean, miracle worker does allow an engineer to live longer, therefore keeping his total DPS up, but in the rare cases that MW would have kept an engineer alive but the tac dead, the engie doesn't do 15-20 seconds worth of tactical damage - so some sort of buff is needed here...
This way, "my" playstyle of Fed Sci in a Fed Science ship with Polaron Weaponry can keep pace with your max-DPS Scimitar style... And Fred who loves Engies and cruisers can match Scim numbers, too...
Either that, or let's open up the possibility of "making the other classes needed" - I mean, what if the spheres of ISA all EPtEed to the far corners of a 20km range rather than the far ends of the map? This way the 5 pack of Scims have a little work to do (split up and chase down their own "corner"), but that Sci with GW III kept them clustered together for 4x Scims to mow down... Or that Elite Tac Cube that one-hits a Tac-Scim will fire it's "OHK" attack on the local tank that's geared to survive it (instead of at the Scim) and leave the Scims to DeePS away...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
Trying to convince people that Engineers could use a buff is futile. I've tried it. You get two basic responses: