Cryptics politics of testing PvE content in a PvE environment is unfortunate, because both concepts have opposing goals.
Things that work well in a PvP environment don't have to work well in PvE and even less if it is supposed to be a Star Trek game (star trek = very different rules of everything).
So the more PvP the game gets the less Star Trek will be left (just my personal opinion, btw).
What's the matter with PvP threats lately?
Think anytime when you bring PVP balance into a PVE centric game you get nerfs that kill the fun of PVE. Balance is an illusion at best. Seen some games get real close but never actually get there. Either they simply give up or they add new powers, classes, or abilities and have to start all over. In all games I've played that try for balance I've had to watch it take classes I liked to play and make them either weaker or in a few useless after they balanced it for pvp.
My opinion as it is and yeah not big on pvp in any of the games I've played. Been able to get good at it in a few games but never really cared for it other then grinding to get rewards in certain games.
If, by meimeitoo's own admission, SS was not OP in PvE (and hence not of any concern), why has its nerf allowing it to be more balanced in an environment where it was far more utilised (PvP) annoyed him so greatly?
You got your logic wires crossed. SS3 should not have been nerfed for PvE, because, by your own admission, it was not a concern in PvE.
But here's a question for you; should they leaps and bounds better than the "Standard" Boff abilities?
Ay, there's the rub! They were 'leaps and bounds better'... in PvP only. In PvE, BFAW still ruled -- even before the great SS nerf. So, a non-threatening ability in PvE got nerfed because, yes, because PvP.
If, by meimeitoo's own admission, SS was not OP in PvE (and hence not of any concern), why has its nerf allowing it to be more balanced in an environment where it was far more utilised (PvP) annoyed him so greatly?
I'm not an expert on this exact power topic, but the general concept would be:
"OP in PvP, not OP but usable in PvE"
*balance*
"Not OP in PvP, underpowered in PvE"
Seen this happen in waaaaaaay too many cases in MMOs I've played. Which is (since I PvE almost exclusively) one of the big reasons that I wish the two game styles were entirely separated. The other big reason, of course, being the obnoxious macho/trash-talk/bully/griefer attitude that some fraction of the PvP community feels the need to spew everywhere they go. /shrug
Ay, there's the rub! They were 'leaps and bounds better'... in PvP only. In PvE, BFAW still ruled -- even before the great SS nerf. So, a non-threatening ability in PvE got nerfed because, yes, because PvP.
But SS was doing significantly better than the Devs intentions abs design, but their own internal testing.
So how is that a nerf? It was, literally, by definition of the word, OP.
Amazingly nerfed, you mean. It got nerfed for about 30% in total. So, if you did, say, a comfortable 40k with it before, now it's not enough any more to get you into 30k with it, even. I call that dead, Jim.
If by 'axe to grind' you mean I was using SS3 in PvE, and didn't appreciate it seeing it nerfed by you, then sure.
Amazingly nerfed, you mean. It got nerfed for about 30% in total. So, if you did, say, a comfortable 40k with it before, now it's not enough any more to get you into 30k with it, even. I call that dead, Jim.
That 30K is still a lot. From a single, single target ability.
Yes, you can get more with FAW. But isn't that problem with FAW itself, where it not only boosts single target damage, but also gives you mass amounts of AoE damage to go with it? It doesn't make any sense; an ability that's the de facto choice for single target and AoE, that does both better than anything else, with no downside. That's a story for another day, though.
You still haven't addressed that it wasn't PvP that got SS fixed, rather, it was the Devs themselves that said it was over performing according to how they designed it.
But SS was doing significantly better than the Devs intentions abs design, but their own internal testing.
Was it doing significantly better than intended?! I don't believe that at all. See, Surgical Strikes is one of the most straightforward abilities out there: CrtH x CrtD, by design, from the get-go. Clean and simple. And it wasn't broken in the sense that the Pen Trait was: it was simply, and absolutely WAI. And the players loved it! And then it get severely nerfed, because PvP.
I'm gonna go ahead and post here that the OP is almost completely wrong to attribute any nerfs or buffs to complaints made by PVPers.
The developers choose to nerf or buff things. Now I'm not going to pretend to be privvy to all the variables that influence a power adjustments in game so I can't claim the thoughts of PVPers are completely ignored, or even given undo weight. I can say that PVP players are responsible for none of the changes the developers have decided to make to this game. The responsibility for this game's development lays at the feet of its developers, for the good choices and the bad.
Was it doing significantly better than intended?! I don't believe that at all. See, Surgical Strikes is one of the most straightforward abilities out there: CrtH x CrtD, by design, from the get-go. Clean and simple. And it wasn't broken in the sense that the Pen Trait was: it was simply, and absolutely WAI. And the players loved it! And then it get severely nerfed, because PvP.
I can't find the post right now, but Borticus himself said that they had no idea that you could get as much damage as people were from it by stacking CrtD and CrtH, and that it was beyond their expectations for it's performance.
So, it was, quite literally, not Working As Intended.
Severely nerfed? No, it's still quite functional in both PvP and PvE. I still see people hitting me for 6K+, from a Beam Array, through my resists. How is that a "severe" nerf?
We arrived at these figures after a LOT of internal testing. Parsing using different weapon types, comparing to multiple different firing modes, in many various different weapon configurations.
In all of the tests we performed, even after the above changes, Surgical Strikes reliably outperformed every combination of Weapon Type and Firing Mode we tried, once the player had a reasonable amount of +CritH and +CritD.
Those "reasonable amounts" by the way were 15% Crit Chance, and +200 Crit Severity. Values reasonably obtained by many players, and hilarious outstripped by our high-end performers.
So, despite the reductions contained in these Patch Notes, we feel the ability is still desirable by players properly geared to get the most out of it. We encourage anyone interested in how this affects their performance to copy over to Redshirt and try it out for themselves. Your feedback is welcome. (Parses of before/after performance would be even better!)
I think the real misconception is that nerfs are always bad. They aren't. Balance is good. It means that your favorite ship doesn't suck because it lacks access to the newest OP abilities.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
You still haven't addressed that it wasn't PvP that got SS fixed, rather, it was the Devs themselves that said it was over performing according to how they designed it.
Wait, wut?! Didn't you make a start post, stating the following?
"Here's some things that @jarvisandalfred suggested I bring up that PvP HAS gotten nerfed, and why they were."
And didn't that list include Surgical Strikes!?
Honestly, I think you need to make up your mind on this. Either you admit PvP got SS nerfed, and defend why, if you feel so inclined, or deny that PvP-ers had anything to do with it. But you can't play both sides of the argument.
Wait, wut?! Didn't you make a start post, stating the following?
"Here's some things that @jarvisandalfred suggested I bring up that PvP HAS gotten nerfed, and why they were."
And didn't that list include Surgical Strikes!?
Honestly, I think you need to make up your mind on this. Either you admit PvP got SS nerfed, and defend why, if you feel so inclined, or deny that PvP-ers had anything to do with it. But you can't play both sides of the argument.
We arrived at these figures after a LOT of internal testing. Parsing using different weapon types, comparing to multiple different firing modes, in many various different weapon configurations.
In all of the tests we performed, even after the above changes, Surgical Strikes reliably outperformed every combination of Weapon Type and Firing Mode we tried, once the player had a reasonable amount of +CritH and +CritD.
Those "reasonable amounts" by the way were 15% Crit Chance, and +200 Crit Severity. Values reasonably obtained by many players, and hilarious outstripped by our high-end performers.
So, despite the reductions contained in these Patch Notes, we feel the ability is still desirable by players properly geared to get the most out of it. We encourage anyone interested in how this affects their performance to copy over to Redshirt and try it out for themselves. Your feedback is welcome. (Parses of before/after performance would be even better!)
You are right, though, I poorly worded the OP and have editted to reflect what I actually meant.
SS was not nerfed because it was demolishing players in PvP. It was always overperforming.
You can make the argument that it was "needed" in PvE, but that's not PvP's fault; that's a game design issue.
Honestly seems to be a simple request to give ya all a few more maps to play but thinking of pvp in general and the amount of time they have or haven't spent in relation to all the other things they don't really seem to get around to adding to or making changes to it all comes to population and resources. They haven't touched pvp in 5 years and you all are still here so kinda tells them your willing to stick around whether you get that added content or not. It's like Klingons and their lack of new items. They play to the masses. The Federation gets all the toys because it has a overwhelming large amount of players compared to the Romulans or the Klingons. Thats why they get tons and tons of new stuff and Klingons don't. How many costumes does the Federation have compared to the Klinks and Rommies. They made how many t6 ships now for federation compared to the other two. They seem to pay all their attention to what the majority wants and they do very little of anthing at all for the people stuck in the minority when it comes to content.
Claiming to get Tachyon Beam buffed even though anyone who has been paying attention knows Tachyon Beam was Buffed due to a Starship Trait they were selling. Not because of PvPers.
Nice try OP. But that alone makes me question everything else you claim.
Ummm, so, which is it then? PvP got SS nerfed, as you initially claimed, or Bort did, entirely of his own accord?
PvPers had nothing to do with it I believe ..Its All Bort
Borts test group uses 15 CriTH and 200 CriTD as his test ships..................use those stats with SS and there you go
Mr Antiproton/lobi / Epic crafter man himself
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Um, no?! Not semantics. In fact, the question whether PvP-ers get things nerfed is the quintessence of the very reason for your start post! And you clained therein that PvP-ers got SS nerfed, plus IT. And you were right, of course: you *did* get those things nerfed! And you, initially, didn't even feel like denying it, either; and you even went so far as to write an entire justification for why you got those abilities nerfed.
And now, hiding behind a post by Bort, you suddenly do a full 180 and claim 'SS was not nerfed because it was demolishing players in PvP.'?! Yeah, no.
Who was the toxic community again? The ultimate truth is that PvPers, in every game always have the most wide and extensive knowledge of game powers and mechanics. Did you know that Ryan (the dps legend) used to be a a PvPer? Same goes for many others I've met in the past before things degenerated with DR. They're legends because they can outsmart players, not NPCs.
Other way more successful MMOs balance things for the sake of PvP and PvE.
I believe all these PvP threads are bc PvP in STO could be way more popular than it is if only it were given proper attention by the Devs.
Blizzard's approach is to make it so combat is fundamentally different in PvP than PvE. this is a bad idea IMO since it means builds that work in one may be utterly useless in the other.
Claiming to get Tachyon Beam buffed even though anyone who has been paying attention knows Tachyon Beam was Buffed due to a Starship Trait they were selling. Not because of PvPers.
Nice try OP. But that alone makes me question everything else you claim.
Not this past buff.
Before, when it was buffed in conjunction with Charged Particle Burst.
There was a time when it was possible to drain shields completely with TB and CPB.
Comments
LOL. Denial is not just a river, they say. :P
I did the highest DPS with my Phantom SS3 boat. Others (the vast majority, probably) got more out of BFAW3; but for me the thing was SS3.
I was happy we finally got refreshing new abilities, besides BFAW and CSV. And now Intel is already dead AND we d
Think anytime when you bring PVP balance into a PVE centric game you get nerfs that kill the fun of PVE. Balance is an illusion at best. Seen some games get real close but never actually get there. Either they simply give up or they add new powers, classes, or abilities and have to start all over. In all games I've played that try for balance I've had to watch it take classes I liked to play and make them either weaker or in a few useless after they balanced it for pvp.
My opinion as it is and yeah not big on pvp in any of the games I've played. Been able to get good at it in a few games but never really cared for it other then grinding to get rewards in certain games.
You got your logic wires crossed. SS3 should not have been nerfed for PvE, because, by your own admission, it was not a concern in PvE.
Ay, there's the rub! They were 'leaps and bounds better'... in PvP only. In PvE, BFAW still ruled -- even before the great SS nerf. So, a non-threatening ability in PvE got nerfed because, yes, because PvP.
I'm not an expert on this exact power topic, but the general concept would be:
"OP in PvP, not OP but usable in PvE"
*balance*
"Not OP in PvP, underpowered in PvE"
Seen this happen in waaaaaaay too many cases in MMOs I've played. Which is (since I PvE almost exclusively) one of the big reasons that I wish the two game styles were entirely separated. The other big reason, of course, being the obnoxious macho/trash-talk/bully/griefer attitude that some fraction of the PvP community feels the need to spew everywhere they go. /shrug
But SS was doing significantly better than the Devs intentions abs design, but their own internal testing.
So how is that a nerf? It was, literally, by definition of the word, OP.
If by 'axe to grind' you mean I was using SS3 in PvE, and didn't appreciate it seeing it nerfed by you, then sure.
Amazingly nerfed, you mean. It got nerfed for about 30% in total. So, if you did, say, a comfortable 40k with it before, now it's not enough any more to get you into 30k with it, even. I call that dead, Jim.
That 30K is still a lot. From a single, single target ability.
Yes, you can get more with FAW. But isn't that problem with FAW itself, where it not only boosts single target damage, but also gives you mass amounts of AoE damage to go with it? It doesn't make any sense; an ability that's the de facto choice for single target and AoE, that does both better than anything else, with no downside. That's a story for another day, though.
You still haven't addressed that it wasn't PvP that got SS fixed, rather, it was the Devs themselves that said it was over performing according to how they designed it.
Fixed that OP for ya. :eek:
Would you like to back up that statement?
Or are you just trolling?
Was it doing significantly better than intended?! I don't believe that at all. See, Surgical Strikes is one of the most straightforward abilities out there: CrtH x CrtD, by design, from the get-go. Clean and simple. And it wasn't broken in the sense that the Pen Trait was: it was simply, and absolutely WAI. And the players loved it! And then it get severely nerfed, because PvP.
The developers choose to nerf or buff things. Now I'm not going to pretend to be privvy to all the variables that influence a power adjustments in game so I can't claim the thoughts of PVPers are completely ignored, or even given undo weight. I can say that PVP players are responsible for none of the changes the developers have decided to make to this game. The responsibility for this game's development lays at the feet of its developers, for the good choices and the bad.
I can't find the post right now, but Borticus himself said that they had no idea that you could get as much damage as people were from it by stacking CrtD and CrtH, and that it was beyond their expectations for it's performance.
So, it was, quite literally, not Working As Intended.
Severely nerfed? No, it's still quite functional in both PvP and PvE. I still see people hitting me for 6K+, from a Beam Array, through my resists. How is that a "severe" nerf?
EDIT:
I think the real misconception is that nerfs are always bad. They aren't. Balance is good. It means that your favorite ship doesn't suck because it lacks access to the newest OP abilities.
Wait, wut?! Didn't you make a start post, stating the following?
"Here's some things that @jarvisandalfred suggested I bring up that PvP HAS gotten nerfed, and why they were."
And didn't that list include Surgical Strikes!?
Honestly, I think you need to make up your mind on this. Either you admit PvP got SS nerfed, and defend why, if you feel so inclined, or deny that PvP-ers had anything to do with it. But you can't play both sides of the argument.
Ummm...
You are right, though, I poorly worded the OP and have editted to reflect what I actually meant.
Ummm, so, which is it then? PvP got SS nerfed, as you initially claimed, or Bort did, entirely of his own accord?
I edited the OP.
But you're arguing semantics, now.
SS was not nerfed because it was demolishing players in PvP. It was always overperforming.
You can make the argument that it was "needed" in PvE, but that's not PvP's fault; that's a game design issue.
Honestly seems to be a simple request to give ya all a few more maps to play but thinking of pvp in general and the amount of time they have or haven't spent in relation to all the other things they don't really seem to get around to adding to or making changes to it all comes to population and resources. They haven't touched pvp in 5 years and you all are still here so kinda tells them your willing to stick around whether you get that added content or not. It's like Klingons and their lack of new items. They play to the masses. The Federation gets all the toys because it has a overwhelming large amount of players compared to the Romulans or the Klingons. Thats why they get tons and tons of new stuff and Klingons don't. How many costumes does the Federation have compared to the Klinks and Rommies. They made how many t6 ships now for federation compared to the other two. They seem to pay all their attention to what the majority wants and they do very little of anthing at all for the people stuck in the minority when it comes to content.
Claiming to get Tachyon Beam buffed even though anyone who has been paying attention knows Tachyon Beam was Buffed due to a Starship Trait they were selling. Not because of PvPers.
Nice try OP. But that alone makes me question everything else you claim.
Overpowered ? In PvE ? Compared to BfaW3 ?
It did not match up to BfaW3 and it was available only to a handful of ships
It was much more powerful than beam overload which is a joke skill in PvE
SS should have been modified verses player it was never OP in PvE...........surgical strikes needing balancing in PvP/verses player
pre DR BfaW boats still dominate DPS in PvE...... beam users still have only one choice as a special attack in PvE
BfaW
The thing I suspect it was competing to heavy with cannons in escorts is the reason Bort nerfed it
PvPers had nothing to do with it I believe ..Its All Bort
Borts test group uses 15 CriTH and 200 CriTD as his test ships..................use those stats with SS and there you go
Mr Antiproton/lobi / Epic crafter man himself
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Um, no?! Not semantics. In fact, the question whether PvP-ers get things nerfed is the quintessence of the very reason for your start post! And you clained therein that PvP-ers got SS nerfed, plus IT. And you were right, of course: you *did* get those things nerfed! And you, initially, didn't even feel like denying it, either; and you even went so far as to write an entire justification for why you got those abilities nerfed.
And now, hiding behind a post by Bort, you suddenly do a full 180 and claim 'SS was not nerfed because it was demolishing players in PvP.'?! Yeah, no.
You know. If you cant have a discussion without resorting to attacks....Maybe askray should pay this thread a visit and send you a polite PM.
Straighten up.
So what dp you define as "Proper attention"?
My character Tsin'xing
Not this past buff.
Before, when it was buffed in conjunction with Charged Particle Burst.
There was a time when it was possible to drain shields completely with TB and CPB.
If that's confusing, I'll edit the OP.