Bort is not responsible for PvP. There is no PvP Dev. Hell, there's no PvP Advocate - there's nobody there harassing everybody else on everything they're doing about how it will affect PvP. Doesn't mean that Bort or the other System guys 100% ignore PvP, but it's a PvE game and everybody knows that. There's not even a handful of them with a heinous production schedule, so they're going to miss things and even things players point out might not get fixed until the schedule allows them to get fixed. I've said it before, and I'll say it again - not as a reflection on the folks they've got - but imho they're simply understaffed for the production schedule they have. So we end up with the same cycle after each of the releases, ohhhhhhpower and then the time later to address that. Same goes for things that are underpowered too...it's going to take time to get that addressed.
Same thing is going to happen with S10...you can bet 2 EC on that if you could find somebody willing to take the bet, which I'd doubt, cause it happens over and over and over again.
But folks will go on blaming the PvPers...course, folks blame the DPSers too ("stop posting vids, Cryptic will nerf stuff" is a common complaint too).
And to be blunt, I think that's what it comes down to...that hatred for the PvPers and the DPSers. They're not hiding the issues...they're talking about them or they're displaying them. Folks that want to keep that stuff hidden...well, they don't like that.
Shhh, I'm waiting for the reply...so I can talk about how they're an Engineer - and - if they want to scapegoat somebody for the Surgical Strikes changes, maybe they should go after Tac Captains. Then if they were to stop to think about many of the changes, including the increase in difficulty, how they could probably point to Tac Captains as well. :P
Actually, now that you mention it, AHOD + Tact Captain totally *is* OP! And yes, I'm an Engineer. Yet you never see me clamor for nerfs to Tact Captains, do you?! And you know why? Because I believe in 'Live and let live.' I don't like being nerfed myself; and, in turn, never ask others be nerfed either. People invested money and time into getting their Rom Tact Captains: they deserve to keep their 'OP-ness.' Much like me, the Fed Engineer, deserved to keep my 'OP' Phantom. And you do understand I use the term 'OP' just anecdotallly here, right?
Sorry, VD, you're gonna have to do a lot better to goat me.
for most of the pvP community, Surgical Strikes wasn't even an issue after mid-november, aside from a few complainers who still didn't have a grasp of the basics, much less the advanced stuff.
false. SS3 + Ionic was a death sentence in mid-november. Meh, that was a period I hated. I didn't want to use SS3 because it was stupid, older escorts were flying targets, science was limited to reflection trickies. Essentially, I made an anti-intel Vesta that was bare invapable aimed to kill back the wankstains who were abusing SS3. Curious thing is that they've all disappeared after SS3 got nerfed. :rolleyes:
Essentially I hated it because there was zero variety in the metagame.
And to be blunt, I think that's what it comes down to...that hatred for the PvPers and the DPSers. They're not hiding the issues...they're talking about them or they're displaying them. Folks that want to keep that stuff hidden...well, they don't like that.
That seems to be pretty much it. People fear that their toys get nerfed. They refuse to see the perspective of people that actually have to deal with the imbalance -which can be a PvP player, a DPS guy, or just the guy that likes to fly a particular type of ship that can't use that particular toy and is now at a disadvantage, or has to give up his favourite ship.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Notably, like your FBP build, they weren't that great shakes in PvE until someone figured out how to work an AOE exploit in there using Grav Wells to pull mobs into the turbulence field.
Interesting why you'd call that an 'exploit.' Me, I would just call that 'clever gameplay.' Does that make using my gravtorp, working 'an AOE exploit in there using Grav Wells' now an exploit too?! Calling such tactics an eploit is setting a dangerous precedent, IMHO, because isn't that the whole purpose of the game, to become proficient at your builds?! Maybe that is how people looked at SS too: someone was smart enough to realize that, with a lot of CrtH, one might actually slot Vulnerability, erm, Exploiters (LOL). And then everyone starting screaming red.
No, seriously, why is thinking up half-way clever things deemed exploitative behavior? A little off-topic, I know, but I'm always curious why ppl feel that way.
Actually, now that you mention it, AHOD + Tact Captain totally *is* OP! And yes, I'm an Engineer. Yet you never see me clamor for nerfs to Tact Captains, do you?! And you know why? Because I believe in 'Live and let live.' I don't like being nerfed myself; and, in turn, never ask others be nerfed either. People invested money and time into getting their Rom Tact Captains: they deserve to keep their 'OP-ness.' Much like me, the Fed Engineer, deserved to keep my 'OP' Phantom. And you do understand I use the term 'OP' just anecdotallly here, right?
Sorry, VD, you're gonna have to do a lot better to goat me.
It's not a case of trying to goat you...it's just literally a case of pointing out why Surgical Strikes was likely adjusted and how as an Eng Captain that would have adversely affected you.
Those "reasonable amounts" by the way were 15% Crit Chance, and +200 Crit Severity. Values reasonably obtained by many players, and hilarious outstripped by our high-end performers.
Do you have 15% or more CrtH?
Do you have 200% or more CrtD?
We start with 2.5% CrtH and 50% CrtD...how did you get your +12.5% CrtH and +150% CrtD to reach that "reasonable amount" of both?
Precision and Advanced Targeting? Cool, you're at 6.5% and 66% CrtD. Only need +8.5% CrtH and +84% CrtD.
Perhaps you've got room for two SROs? Cool, you're at 10.5% and 76% CrtD. Only need +4.5% CrtH and +74% CrtD.
Work in 3x UR12 Locators with their 1.6% CrtH? You've hit the CrtH amount, but what about the CrtD?
Maybe running some [CrtD]x3 weapons? That's +60%...which isn't +76%. Wait, if you go with standard AP! Tada, you've hit the CrtD amount too.
Course, APA3 w/ 9 SAP (T1 skill) provides +5% CrtH and +49.6% CrtD....
* * * * *
You may feel that you're using the term "OP" in a certain fashion, but face it...
A Rom will have +7.5% CrtH / +18.8% CrtD over a non-Rom and a Scimitar is a Scimitar.
And while one might have felt that Surgical helped a non-Tac close some of the gap, it ignores that the Tac isn't prohibited from using it and with the underlying way mechanics worked, it would have actually increased the gap all that much more.
* * * * *
It really does come off after a time of you saying, "I don't care if everybody wants to call this an apple, but this is an orange and it's all the fault of those damn bananas."
By itself it wasn't though-it took running both Ionic turbulence aND SS3.
not just the one ability. Most of those wankstains left when they couldn't chain-disable, but if a ship could pack IT and BO3 it was doing basically the same thing.
The problems boiled down to synergies. Individually the intel abilities weren't and aren't all that great-it's only when you take what one does, and add in what another does, and leave them broken-with-no-counter that you see the lolkillz that Intel ships were racking up from release day in October through to the patch back in January.
Notably, like your FBP build, they weren't that great shakes in PvE until someone figured out how to work an AOE exploit in there using Grav Wells to pull mobs into the turbulence field.
That seems to be pretty much it. People fear that their toys get nerfed. They refuse to see the perspective of people that actually have to deal with the imbalance -which can be a PvP player, a DPS guy, or just the guy that likes to fly a particular type of ship that can't use that particular toy and is now at a disadvantage, or has to give up his favourite ship.
And thus you refuse to see the perspective of people that actually have to deal with being put at a disadvantage, or of those who had to give up their favourite ship. :P
Funny how that door swings boths ways, doesn't it?! Except, on my end of the door, there's 99% of the playerbase suffering penalties, because that 1% on the other end of the door couldn't win in PvP.
And to be blunt, I think that's what it comes down to...that hatred for the PvPers and the DPSers. They're not hiding the issues...they're talking about them or they're displaying them. Folks that want to keep that stuff hidden...well, they don't like that.
There's making discreet mention to the party involved and then there's slapping them in the face and throwing the gauntlet down in public.
Which one will gain the players involved more enmity from the devs is left as an exercise to the reader.
This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
You may feel that you're using the term "OP" in a certain fashion, but face it...
A Rom will have +7.5% CrtH / +18.8% CrtD over a non-Rom and a Scimitar is a Scimitar.
And while one might have felt that Surgical helped a non-Tac close some of the gap, it ignores that the Tac isn't prohibited from using it and with the underlying way mechanics worked, it would have actually increased the gap all that much more.
* * * * *
All true. A Tact Captain using SS will do a lot better with it than me, an Engineer. Never bothered me, really. At least, as a Fed Engineer, I could use Reciprocity to get it to global fairly easily. But a Fed Tact Captain can bring AHOD + APA + TI + FOMM to the table on top of that, all of which completely blows away what an Engineer can do with AHOD. Me, I just get to press my Nadion Inversion a few extra times. All of which I've long since come to peace with. If not, I couldn't continue to play the game and keep my sanity.
Records were broken using OP plasma doping. Another broken ability but you can't even remotely blame PvP for.
And no one even remotely did. :P
You're just QQing bc you used Surgical Strikes and you can't duplicate that DPS without something broken..
Um, remember the part where SS3, even in its glory days, was *still* being outperfomed by BFAW?! That's just the nature of how PvE works (lotsa AoE targets).
REMINDER: Do NOT quote posts which break forum rules! ~Bluegeek
Interesting why you'd call that an 'exploit.' Me, I would just call that 'clever gameplay.' Does that make using my gravtorp, working 'an AOE exploit in there using Grav Wells' now an exploit too?! Calling such tactics an eploit is setting a dangerous precedent, IMHO, because isn't that the whole purpose of the game, to become proficient at your builds?! Maybe that is how people looked at SS too: someone was smart enough to realize that, with a lot of CrtH, one might actually slot Vulnerability, erm, Exploiters (LOL). And then everyone starting screaming red.
No, seriously, why is thinking up half-way clever things deemed exploitative behavior? A little off-topic, I know, but I'm always curious why ppl feel that way.
You make a good point, but would you be surprised to learn that the overall difference between exploiters or locaters with SS is tiny? And it's currently in favor of locators with the latest nerf?
SCM - Crystal C. (S) - [00:12] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 8.63M(713.16K) - Fed Sci
And thus you refuse to see the perspective of people that actually have to deal with being put at a disadvantage, or of those who had to give up their favourite ship. :P
No, you're refusing to see it.
Your wonderful overpowered Surgical Strikes means that if someone wants to fly a Defiant, Patrol Escort or even a Guardian, he's at disadvantage, because you can't use Surgical Strikes.
On the other hand - if Surgical Strikes is balanced compared to all the other DPS boosting powers , then you can freely choose whether you use a Phantom, Defiant, Patrol Escort, Guardian or Eclipse, because all choices give you an equal opportunity.
And if the game had a better balance in general, and was not weighted so heavily in favour of DPS builds (or DPS builds were feasible with any class of Bridge Officer powers), then a ship like the Galaxy wouldn't have been considered as the weakest Cruiser, and people wouldn't have needed to ask for a Galaxy Class with a Lt.Cmdr Tactical slot.
Get stuff balanced and you have fewer problems like this.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Don't tell me PVPers want "fair and balanced." They don't. The PVPer definition of "fair and balanced" is "It's fair when I can gank people without having them fight back and its not balanced if I can't." That's the name of the game. Kill or be killed and if you look at some of the more popular (and notorious) PVP centric games that's how you survive.
This is not quite on target.
The fact of the matter is that there are PvP players and there are other PvP players, and they don't always see the game the same way.
Yes, PvP players will chase after that 'edge' to win. It's what they do.
But at least some PvP players recognize that "shooting fish in a barrel" is only fun for a little while. They'd rather have challenging matches than racking up easy kill after easy kill. And they definitely don't like being on the wrong end of that equation, which is why a lot of PvP players dislike unbalanced game mechanics.
After all, the OP tactic, power, or build that leaves you defenseless can probably be turned right back around in a way that doesn't favor them.
I've read more than enough posts to realize that by-and-large, not universally but often, it's players who participate in PvP who notice when a power isn't working the way the power seems to be intended. Because they're the ones looking at the numbers, who excel at buildcraft, and who are dreaming up how to use these powers in unexpected ways.
Me, I just play the PvE missions, read the story, and watch the SFX. As long as the NPC's aren't blowing my warp core every five minutes, I'm content.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
You make a good point, but would you be surprised to learn that the overall difference between exploiters or locaters with SS is tiny? And it's currently in favor of locators with the latest nerf?
Funny you should mention that, as my whole earlier request for a test-dummy was precisely about finding out the difference in such variations! So, thanks for the metrics! (no sarcasm intended, btw) I shall try a new Locator setup forthwith.
Except, on my end of the door, there's 99% of the playerbase suffering penalties, because that 1% on the other end of the door couldn't win in PvP.
Frankly do you have any data what so ever to back up this claim?
If one look at average MMOs player types, when one can conclude that players who play exclusive PvE or PvP are the minority. The usual player which represents the majority participates in both PvE and PvP, ofcourse in one more then the other to some degree.
The fact of the matter is that there are PvP players and there are other PvP players, and they don't always see the game the same way.
Yes, PvP players will chase after that 'edge' to win. It's what they do.
But at least some PvP players recognize that "shooting fish in a barrel" is only fun for a little while. They'd rather have challenging matches than racking up easy kill after easy kill. And they definitely don't like being on the wrong end of that equation, which is why a lot of PvP players dislike unbalanced game mechanics.
After all, the OP tactic, power, or build that leaves you defenseless can probably be turned right back around in a way that doesn't favor them.
I've read more than enough posts to realize that by-and-large, not universally but often, it's players who participate in PvP who notice when a power isn't working the way the power seems to be intended. Because they're the ones looking at the numbers, who excel at buildcraft, and who are dreaming up how to use these powers in unexpected ways.
Me, I just play the PvE missions, read the story, and watch the SFX. As long as the NPC's aren't blowing my warp core every five minutes, I'm content.
Pretty much this. PvPers keep working on their builds to do stuff in unconventional ways. I'm pretty sure that if I'd have post my Aventine or Scimitar builds here the vast majority would have absolutely no idea of how it works. All I can say about my Scimitar is that I alternate AtD and AtB cycles to match cloaking/decloaking periods, rotating EPTE and EPTW with a bind to execute rock and roll in dire circumstances and one that decloaks, tractors, and loads Spread 3 to minimize activation times. And that makes up for just a part of the story.
My Aventine... well... can control the enemy's buffs, discourage enemy's spike damage from both energy and kinetic weapons, keeps a team intact, immobilizes the other team while debuffing at the same time to make the tac's work easier.
On the other side my Science Odyssey is... well... a giant unkillable supertank that dishes out zero damage but heals like crazy. This thing has no place in PvE, there's no healer role in PvE.
What makes PvP fun are combinations like the above. Cause those are just two examples, they're infinte. Every PvPer has their own and their own ways to deal with the enemy. If you mix those and put them in a team, you have a PvP team where each of those ships helps the others.
When SS3 & Co. came out all of the above collapsed, there was no point in trying to build something original because it wouldn't have worked anymore. We had only a bunch of broken toys that weren't funny because "shooting fish in a barrel" gets boring quickly.
What's sad is that exactly one year ago I know I was playing PvP with my mates and fleetmates in OPvP, laughing on TS while setting ESD on fire in the meantime we were preparing a match. Now... now it's all gone.
Me, I just play the PvE missions, read the story, and watch the SFX. As long as the NPC's aren't blowing my warp core every five minutes, I'm content.
Heh, it's funny how many things I'll fly with just because they look or sound cool. Playing around with numbers on the forums is fun for me, worrying about numbers in the game not so much. They need to do Vaadwaur Biomatter weapons...so I can get the travel FX of the Vaad with the Needle FX of the Biomatter...I'd be lost then, going googoo-gaga like a baby with a toy.
I am trying very hard to moderate this conversation because it's getting out of hand.
Please do not respond to inflammatory or hostile posts with inflammatory or hostile remarks.
PM me if necessary.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
here's the damned answer. Official. SS3 was officially broken. Broken enough there was no reason to run fire at will, cannon rapid fire and cannon scatter volley. If it wasn't for PvPers, it would have never been fixed.
And therein lies the paradox .
One man's "broken" is another man's fun .
As an ex-PVP-er, I often find myself supporting the fixes they suggest , but that does not mean I did not get burned by one or two "suggestions" .
Example :
Once upon a time, a Caitian/ Ferasan TAC could do the Kirk kick and then the scratch-scratch attacks back to back .
It was a fun thing to do, both in PVP and in PVE .
But then the PVP-ers found a way to chain it with stealth, and suddenly it was deemed an "exploit" .
So it was "fixed" .
Can you guess how long Caitians & Ferasans were out by that point ?
Feasans , over a year .
Caitians, close to 2 years if not longer .
Thus here's the thing : I don't like it when something gets altered a looooong time after I purchased it .
That's not "fixing" something . That's altering the deal (Darth Vader style) .
... and that's just one more example where hitching PVP stats to PVE (and vice versa) is a bad deal for all concerned, and it will continue to be a bad deal as long as it lasts ...
we've also been begging, pleading, screaming for leaderboards, a revamp of PvP rewards, matchmaking, fixes to broken interface mechanics (going over half a year now that KDF don't show on the scoreboard-at all. Like they don't even exist)
Being right doesn't equal being listened to. PvP is NOT listened to. Most of the people in influential positions at Cryptic have made this point quite clear in the past-publicly. It's why I view Geko as an opponent/enemy of PvP in the first place, and why I've kept a list of devs that developed rapport with the pvp community-most of whom are no longer working on STO, or even at Cryptic in some cases.
because listening to PvP is a career killer at Cryptic.
Gozer
AdjudicatorHawk
Branflakes...
any of those names ring a bell? Borticus must have nine lives-he manages to NOT get fired or quit in spite of occasionally talking to the PvP forums-talking to them. not even talking about doing **** for them, just civil conversation.
Tacofangs has openly admitted the map-guys at Cryptic can't make a PvP map-they literally don't know the code well enough.
and nobody, apparently, has time to learn it.
PvP things get broke and it's obvious that they stay that way.
It's no secret PvP is too small for Cryptic to really do anything with. Didn't Geko recently say they had no plans for PvP whatsoever?! (or words to that affect). Kinda sad, actually. I mean, I'd say, either do something with it, or just graciously let it go.
Your above post was actually quite reasonable, so I should probably leave my participation in this thread at that. While it *does* feel to me only the PvP Community has Borticus' ear, exclusively, point is, SS3 has *already* been nerfed. And I'm fair certain he's not gonna listen to me asking for an un-nerf. :P
It's no secret PvP is too small for Cryptic to really do anything with. Didn't Geko recently say they had no plans for PvP whatsoever?! (or words to that affect). Kinda sad, actually. I mean, I'd say, either do something with it, or just graciously let it go.
Your above post was actually quite reasonable, so I should probably leave my participation in this thread at that. While it *does* feel to me only the PvP Community has Borticus' ear, exclusively, point is, SS3 has *already* been nerfed. And I'm fair certain he's not gonna listen to me asking for an un-nerf. :P
Your un-nerf will not be listened to because it has no proof in mathematics. Is it that hard?
Show me proof what you say is correct. And with proof I mean data, comparison that takes into account every last bit of information and possibilities. You still have to do that.
We can't quite do the same thing for Surgical, because we've also had the +40% Accuracy and +40% CrtH in play. Against a target with 0% Defense (averaging out between a slow moving target and a parked target, with a parked target having -15% Defense and it requiring 24+ Impulse to get to +45%)...that would be ~3.57% more CrtH and ~14.29% more CrtD.
So, despite the reductions contained in these Patch Notes, we feel the ability is still desirable by players properly geared to get the most out of it.
And trying to compare Surgical to FAW is the same as trying to compare CRF/BO/etc to FAW or CSV...it's just not going to work in this game. Folks have argued the FAW thing forever (even with CSV being thrown into the mix)...and they've been told it's not going to work the way they think it should. It's never going be 50% damage to two targets or 50%/33% to two/three targets. Multiple target abilities are going to outperform single target abilities for DPS.
As for why if Surgical3 was so powerful compared to CRF3/etc, why weren't folks using Intel boats? Not only weren't there Fleet Intel boats but there was no Intel Scimitar...imagine if there had been, eh?
I've said it before, and I'll say it again - not as a reflection on the folks they've got - but imho they're simply understaffed for the production schedule they have. So we end up with the same cycle after each of the releases, ohhhhhhpower and then the time later to address that. Same goes for things that are underpowered too...it's going to take time to get that addressed.
While I agree with the schedule issue and the fix-nerfs, its been my experience that things mostly get buffed periodically , and very rarely do new items get any significant boosts (not counting slapping on a hangar if something is not selling) .
But folks will go on blaming the PvPers...course, folks blame the DPSers too ("stop posting vids, Cryptic will nerf stuff" is a common complaint too).
If you can't see the difference in intent between say ... Thissler's PVP vids and the trololol vids posted by a certain DPS crew then that's your issue .
And I also think you got the concerns mixed up , as Cryptic is likely to boost the NPC's due to the DPS videos, even if those represent the warped reality of a few, not the actual reality of the majority .
... same goes for the "reasonable amount" of 15% CrtH and 200% CrtD that "many can achieve" (but many indeed don't) ...
If you can't see the difference between Thissler's PVP vids and the trololol vids posted by a certain DPS crew then that's your issue .
And I also think you got the concerns mixed up , as Cryptic is likely to boost the NPC's due to the DPS videos, as those represent the warped reality of a few, not the actual reality of the majority .
That you see them as trololol vids...well, I'm not sure I'm the one with the issue. I don't bunch up any undergarments at their vids.
ISA...requires ~1-2k DPS per person more than ISE did. So you're going to say that the folks that were doing 50-90k DPS caused a ~1-2k DPS increase in the requirement? Cause yeah, that's going to slow them down! The guys that are now doing 75-120k DPS got slowed down by that!
Yeah...no.
Average folks. They're the Evil Ones. They're the folks that Cryptic notices. That majority...is who Cryptic caters to and adjusts things for...
Average folks doing things too quickly, there are going to be some changes. Average folks doing too much damage, there are going to be some changes. Average folks...they're ruining the fun for all those massively below average folks. Well, no...not all of them - cause it's only an extreme minority that's ever whining about things.
The fact of the matter is that there are PvP players and there are other PvP players, and they don't always see the game the same way.
Yes, PvP players will chase after that 'edge' to win. It's what they do.
But at least some PvP players recognize that "shooting fish in a barrel" is only fun for a little while. They'd rather have challenging matches than racking up easy kill after easy kill. And they definitely don't like being on the wrong end of that equation, which is why a lot of PvP players dislike unbalanced game mechanics.
After all, the OP tactic, power, or build that leaves you defenseless can probably be turned right back around in a way that doesn't favor them.
I've read more than enough posts to realize that by-and-large, not universally but often, it's players who participate in PvP who notice when a power isn't working the way the power seems to be intended. Because they're the ones looking at the numbers, who excel at buildcraft, and who are dreaming up how to use these powers in unexpected ways.
Me, I just play the PvE missions, read the story, and watch the SFX. As long as the NPC's aren't blowing my warp core every five minutes, I'm content.
Heh, some of the best forum PvP has been between the PvPers looking to shoot fish in a barrel and the PvPers looking for somebody to put a team together for some heinous action.
Comments
Bort is not responsible for PvP. There is no PvP Dev. Hell, there's no PvP Advocate - there's nobody there harassing everybody else on everything they're doing about how it will affect PvP. Doesn't mean that Bort or the other System guys 100% ignore PvP, but it's a PvE game and everybody knows that. There's not even a handful of them with a heinous production schedule, so they're going to miss things and even things players point out might not get fixed until the schedule allows them to get fixed. I've said it before, and I'll say it again - not as a reflection on the folks they've got - but imho they're simply understaffed for the production schedule they have. So we end up with the same cycle after each of the releases, ohhhhhhpower and then the time later to address that. Same goes for things that are underpowered too...it's going to take time to get that addressed.
Same thing is going to happen with S10...you can bet 2 EC on that if you could find somebody willing to take the bet, which I'd doubt, cause it happens over and over and over again.
But folks will go on blaming the PvPers...course, folks blame the DPSers too ("stop posting vids, Cryptic will nerf stuff" is a common complaint too).
And to be blunt, I think that's what it comes down to...that hatred for the PvPers and the DPSers. They're not hiding the issues...they're talking about them or they're displaying them. Folks that want to keep that stuff hidden...well, they don't like that.
Actually, now that you mention it, AHOD + Tact Captain totally *is* OP! And yes, I'm an Engineer. Yet you never see me clamor for nerfs to Tact Captains, do you?! And you know why? Because I believe in 'Live and let live.' I don't like being nerfed myself; and, in turn, never ask others be nerfed either. People invested money and time into getting their Rom Tact Captains: they deserve to keep their 'OP-ness.' Much like me, the Fed Engineer, deserved to keep my 'OP' Phantom. And you do understand I use the term 'OP' just anecdotallly here, right?
Sorry, VD, you're gonna have to do a lot better to goat me.
false. SS3 + Ionic was a death sentence in mid-november. Meh, that was a period I hated. I didn't want to use SS3 because it was stupid, older escorts were flying targets, science was limited to reflection trickies. Essentially, I made an anti-intel Vesta that was bare invapable aimed to kill back the wankstains who were abusing SS3. Curious thing is that they've all disappeared after SS3 got nerfed. :rolleyes:
Essentially I hated it because there was zero variety in the metagame.
Interesting why you'd call that an 'exploit.' Me, I would just call that 'clever gameplay.' Does that make using my gravtorp, working 'an AOE exploit in there using Grav Wells' now an exploit too?! Calling such tactics an eploit is setting a dangerous precedent, IMHO, because isn't that the whole purpose of the game, to become proficient at your builds?! Maybe that is how people looked at SS too: someone was smart enough to realize that, with a lot of CrtH, one might actually slot Vulnerability, erm, Exploiters (LOL). And then everyone starting screaming red.
No, seriously, why is thinking up half-way clever things deemed exploitative behavior? A little off-topic, I know, but I'm always curious why ppl feel that way.
It's not a case of trying to goat you...it's just literally a case of pointing out why Surgical Strikes was likely adjusted and how as an Eng Captain that would have adversely affected you.
Surgical w/ APA vs. Surgical w/o APA
The one part of what Bort said:
Do you have 15% or more CrtH?
Do you have 200% or more CrtD?
We start with 2.5% CrtH and 50% CrtD...how did you get your +12.5% CrtH and +150% CrtD to reach that "reasonable amount" of both?
Precision and Advanced Targeting? Cool, you're at 6.5% and 66% CrtD. Only need +8.5% CrtH and +84% CrtD.
Perhaps you've got room for two SROs? Cool, you're at 10.5% and 76% CrtD. Only need +4.5% CrtH and +74% CrtD.
Work in 3x UR12 Locators with their 1.6% CrtH? You've hit the CrtH amount, but what about the CrtD?
Maybe running some [CrtD]x3 weapons? That's +60%...which isn't +76%. Wait, if you go with standard AP! Tada, you've hit the CrtD amount too.
So all it took was...
Precision
Advanced Targeting
2x SROs
3x UR12 Locators
[CrtD]x3 AP Weapons
...wheeee!
Course, APA3 w/ 9 SAP (T1 skill) provides +5% CrtH and +49.6% CrtD....
* * * * *
You may feel that you're using the term "OP" in a certain fashion, but face it...
A Rom will have +7.5% CrtH / +18.8% CrtD over a non-Rom and a Scimitar is a Scimitar.
And while one might have felt that Surgical helped a non-Tac close some of the gap, it ignores that the Tac isn't prohibited from using it and with the underlying way mechanics worked, it would have actually increased the gap all that much more.
* * * * *
It really does come off after a time of you saying, "I don't care if everybody wants to call this an apple, but this is an orange and it's all the fault of those damn bananas."
Er...huh? What AoE exploit?
And thus you refuse to see the perspective of people that actually have to deal with being put at a disadvantage, or of those who had to give up their favourite ship. :P
Funny how that door swings boths ways, doesn't it?! Except, on my end of the door, there's 99% of the playerbase suffering penalties, because that 1% on the other end of the door couldn't win in PvP.
There's making discreet mention to the party involved and then there's slapping them in the face and throwing the gauntlet down in public.
Which one will gain the players involved more enmity from the devs is left as an exercise to the reader.
All true. A Tact Captain using SS will do a lot better with it than me, an Engineer. Never bothered me, really. At least, as a Fed Engineer, I could use Reciprocity to get it to global fairly easily. But a Fed Tact Captain can bring AHOD + APA + TI + FOMM to the table on top of that, all of which completely blows away what an Engineer can do with AHOD. Me, I just get to press my Nadion Inversion a few extra times.
And no one even remotely did. :P
Um, remember the part where SS3, even in its glory days, was *still* being outperfomed by BFAW?! That's just the nature of how PvE works (lotsa AoE targets).
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You make a good point, but would you be surprised to learn that the overall difference between exploiters or locaters with SS is tiny? And it's currently in favor of locators with the latest nerf?
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Tacs are overrated.
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Your wonderful overpowered Surgical Strikes means that if someone wants to fly a Defiant, Patrol Escort or even a Guardian, he's at disadvantage, because you can't use Surgical Strikes.
On the other hand - if Surgical Strikes is balanced compared to all the other DPS boosting powers , then you can freely choose whether you use a Phantom, Defiant, Patrol Escort, Guardian or Eclipse, because all choices give you an equal opportunity.
And if the game had a better balance in general, and was not weighted so heavily in favour of DPS builds (or DPS builds were feasible with any class of Bridge Officer powers), then a ship like the Galaxy wouldn't have been considered as the weakest Cruiser, and people wouldn't have needed to ask for a Galaxy Class with a Lt.Cmdr Tactical slot.
Get stuff balanced and you have fewer problems like this.
This is not quite on target.
The fact of the matter is that there are PvP players and there are other PvP players, and they don't always see the game the same way.
Yes, PvP players will chase after that 'edge' to win. It's what they do.
But at least some PvP players recognize that "shooting fish in a barrel" is only fun for a little while. They'd rather have challenging matches than racking up easy kill after easy kill. And they definitely don't like being on the wrong end of that equation, which is why a lot of PvP players dislike unbalanced game mechanics.
After all, the OP tactic, power, or build that leaves you defenseless can probably be turned right back around in a way that doesn't favor them.
I've read more than enough posts to realize that by-and-large, not universally but often, it's players who participate in PvP who notice when a power isn't working the way the power seems to be intended. Because they're the ones looking at the numbers, who excel at buildcraft, and who are dreaming up how to use these powers in unexpected ways.
Me, I just play the PvE missions, read the story, and watch the SFX. As long as the NPC's aren't blowing my warp core every five minutes, I'm content.
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Funny you should mention that, as my whole earlier request for a test-dummy was precisely about finding out the difference in such variations!
Frankly do you have any data what so ever to back up this claim?
If one look at average MMOs player types, when one can conclude that players who play exclusive PvE or PvP are the minority. The usual player which represents the majority participates in both PvE and PvP, ofcourse in one more then the other to some degree.
Pretty much this. PvPers keep working on their builds to do stuff in unconventional ways. I'm pretty sure that if I'd have post my Aventine or Scimitar builds here the vast majority would have absolutely no idea of how it works. All I can say about my Scimitar is that I alternate AtD and AtB cycles to match cloaking/decloaking periods, rotating EPTE and EPTW with a bind to execute rock and roll in dire circumstances and one that decloaks, tractors, and loads Spread 3 to minimize activation times. And that makes up for just a part of the story.
My Aventine... well... can control the enemy's buffs, discourage enemy's spike damage from both energy and kinetic weapons, keeps a team intact, immobilizes the other team while debuffing at the same time to make the tac's work easier.
On the other side my Science Odyssey is... well... a giant unkillable supertank that dishes out zero damage but heals like crazy. This thing has no place in PvE, there's no healer role in PvE.
What makes PvP fun are combinations like the above. Cause those are just two examples, they're infinte. Every PvPer has their own and their own ways to deal with the enemy. If you mix those and put them in a team, you have a PvP team where each of those ships helps the others.
When SS3 & Co. came out all of the above collapsed, there was no point in trying to build something original because it wouldn't have worked anymore. We had only a bunch of broken toys that weren't funny because "shooting fish in a barrel" gets boring quickly.
What's sad is that exactly one year ago I know I was playing PvP with my mates and fleetmates in OPvP, laughing on TS while setting ESD on fire in the meantime we were preparing a match. Now... now it's all gone.
Heh, it's funny how many things I'll fly with just because they look or sound cool. Playing around with numbers on the forums is fun for me, worrying about numbers in the game not so much. They need to do Vaadwaur Biomatter weapons...so I can get the travel FX of the Vaad with the Needle FX of the Biomatter...I'd be lost then, going googoo-gaga like a baby with a toy.
One does not even have to go that far, just look at the support PvP got for the last 5 years, just to realize how influential the PvP lobby is lol.
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And therein lies the paradox .
One man's "broken" is another man's fun .
As an ex-PVP-er, I often find myself supporting the fixes they suggest , but that does not mean I did not get burned by one or two "suggestions" .
Example :
Once upon a time, a Caitian/ Ferasan TAC could do the Kirk kick and then the scratch-scratch attacks back to back .
It was a fun thing to do, both in PVP and in PVE .
But then the PVP-ers found a way to chain it with stealth, and suddenly it was deemed an "exploit" .
So it was "fixed" .
Can you guess how long Caitians & Ferasans were out by that point ?
Feasans , over a year .
Caitians, close to 2 years if not longer .
Thus here's the thing : I don't like it when something gets altered a looooong time after I purchased it .
That's not "fixing" something . That's altering the deal (Darth Vader style) .
... and that's just one more example where hitching PVP stats to PVE (and vice versa) is a bad deal for all concerned, and it will continue to be a bad deal as long as it lasts ...
It's no secret PvP is too small for Cryptic to really do anything with. Didn't Geko recently say they had no plans for PvP whatsoever?! (or words to that affect). Kinda sad, actually. I mean, I'd say, either do something with it, or just graciously let it go.
Your above post was actually quite reasonable, so I should probably leave my participation in this thread at that. While it *does* feel to me only the PvP Community has Borticus' ear, exclusively, point is, SS3 has *already* been nerfed. And I'm fair certain he's not gonna listen to me asking for an un-nerf. :P
Your un-nerf will not be listened to because it has no proof in mathematics. Is it that hard?
Show me proof what you say is correct. And with proof I mean data, comparison that takes into account every last bit of information and possibilities. You still have to do that.
CRF3: 1.5x DPS
Surgical3: 1.4x DPS
That's without the +Acc, +CrtH, and taking CrtD into account.
Going with the "reasonable amount" of 15% CrtH and 200% CrtD, we'd see the following outside of any additional boosts at play...
CRF3: 1.5 * 1.3 = 1.95x DPS (1.3 = (1 + (0.15 * 2.0)))
We can't quite do the same thing for Surgical, because we've also had the +40% Accuracy and +40% CrtH in play. Against a target with 0% Defense (averaging out between a slow moving target and a parked target, with a parked target having -15% Defense and it requiring 24+ Impulse to get to +45%)...that would be ~3.57% more CrtH and ~14.29% more CrtD.
Surgical3: 1.4 * 2.26 = 3.16x DPS (2.26 = (1 + ((0.15 + 0.0357 + 0.4) * (2.0 + 0.1429))))
So yeah, 1.95x vs. 3.16x; kind of stands out like a sore thumb.
We move on to the changes they made March 26th then, and...
40% Acc -> 32% Acc
40% CrtH -> 32% CrtH
Base Modifier - 21.5% (looks to be closer to a 26.67% decrease...hrmmm)
Surgical3: 1.1 * 2.06 = 2.27 DPS ( = (1 + ((0.15 + 0.0303 + 0.32) * (2.0 + 0.1212))))
So yeah, 1.95x vs. 2.27x DPS...still favors Surgical3 over CRF3.
Which kind of goes to what Bort said:
And trying to compare Surgical to FAW is the same as trying to compare CRF/BO/etc to FAW or CSV...it's just not going to work in this game. Folks have argued the FAW thing forever (even with CSV being thrown into the mix)...and they've been told it's not going to work the way they think it should. It's never going be 50% damage to two targets or 50%/33% to two/three targets. Multiple target abilities are going to outperform single target abilities for DPS.
As for why if Surgical3 was so powerful compared to CRF3/etc, why weren't folks using Intel boats? Not only weren't there Fleet Intel boats but there was no Intel Scimitar...imagine if there had been, eh?
While I agree with the schedule issue and the fix-nerfs, its been my experience that things mostly get buffed periodically , and very rarely do new items get any significant boosts (not counting slapping on a hangar if something is not selling) .
If you can't see the difference in intent between say ... Thissler's PVP vids and the trololol vids posted by a certain DPS crew then that's your issue .
And I also think you got the concerns mixed up , as Cryptic is likely to boost the NPC's due to the DPS videos, even if those represent the warped reality of a few, not the actual reality of the majority .
... same goes for the "reasonable amount" of 15% CrtH and 200% CrtD that "many can achieve" (but many indeed don't) ...
That you see them as trololol vids...well, I'm not sure I'm the one with the issue. I don't bunch up any undergarments at their vids.
ISA...requires ~1-2k DPS per person more than ISE did. So you're going to say that the folks that were doing 50-90k DPS caused a ~1-2k DPS increase in the requirement? Cause yeah, that's going to slow them down! The guys that are now doing 75-120k DPS got slowed down by that!
Yeah...no.
Average folks. They're the Evil Ones. They're the folks that Cryptic notices. That majority...is who Cryptic caters to and adjusts things for...
Average folks doing things too quickly, there are going to be some changes. Average folks doing too much damage, there are going to be some changes. Average folks...they're ruining the fun for all those massively below average folks. Well, no...not all of them - cause it's only an extreme minority that's ever whining about things.
This post deserves to be quoted for truth
Heh, some of the best forum PvP has been between the PvPers looking to shoot fish in a barrel and the PvPers looking for somebody to put a team together for some heinous action.