Um, no?! Not semantics. In fact, the question whether PvP-ers get things nerfed is the quintessence of the very reason for your start post! And you clained therein that PvP-ers got SS nerfed, plus IT. And you were right, of course: you *did* get those things nerfed! And you, initially, didn't even feel like denying it, either; and you even went so far as to write an entire justification for why you got those abilities nerfed.
And now, hiding behind a post by Bort, you suddenly do a full 180 and claim 'SS was not nerfed because it was demolishing players in PvP.'?! Yeah, no.
The notion I'm trying to dispell is that all PvPers do is get things nerfed, and that every nerf is because of the big bad boogeyman that is PvP.
Using the example of surgical Strikes, yes, it was brutal in PvP. Yes, PvPers called for it to get nerfed.
However, it was nerfed because it was OP, not because PvPers were upset or whined about it.
However, it was nerfed because it was OP, not because PvPers were upset or whined about it.
Your contradicting yourself. You say that it is not PvPers fault but indirectly admits its PvPs fault.
We all know SS was never OP in PvE. So how can it be rationalized it being change because of it being OP when it was never OP in PvE in the first place.
This statement would have been sufficient- SS was nerfed because it was OP in PvP.
LOL how can pvp cause things to get nerfed when there is none left in the game. I did one match once awhile back.. it took forever for people to join the match and I didnt do anymore after that.
Go to the bottom of that guy's post, right under the dotted lines. Which by the way, to his credit, his post is in the PvP discussion section and not general discussion, but anyway.
He says "PvP requires higher quality assurance"
In PvE "we are exceptional"
Goes on to say PvPers have degrees in programming and mathematics and are willing to help the devs out with their job.
How arrogant, rude, and presumptuous. So yes, I have a sordid opinion of PvPers. More than that, the entire thread reflects a hatred from PvPers for the whole community. All people need to do to see it is to go to the PvP section and see how they view the players who don't play their way.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Go and have a wee, the second act gets considerably weirder." -Tim Minchin
Your contradicting yourself. You say that it is not PvPers fault but indirectly admits its PvPs fault.
We all know SS was never OP in PvE. So how can it be rationalized it being change because of it being OP when it was never OP in PvE in the first place.
This statement would have been sufficient- SS was nerfed because it was OP in PvP.
Yes, it was OP in PvP.
But Bort clearly indicated that it was performing beyond its design intentions in PvE as well. He nerfed/fixed it because of that; not solely because it was OP in PvP.
But Bort clearly indicated that it was performing beyond its design intentions in PvE as well. He nerfed/fixed it because of that; not solely because it was OP in PvP.
Don't waste your breath. These are the same people who would also refuse to admit that the 300% increase in performance from Ultra Rare to Epic Mk XIV old doping consoles was not OP as well. If they could, they'd blame that change on PvPers too, except it wouldn't make any sense as the Dots are too easily cleared.
If by 'axe to grind' you mean I was using SS3 in PvE, and didn't appreciate it seeing it nerfed by you, then sure.
Amazingly nerfed, you mean. It got nerfed for about 30% in total. So, if you did, say, a comfortable 40k with it before, now it's not enough any more to get you into 30k with it, even. I call that dead, Jim.
You're either too stubborn or too stupid to understand.
Borticus, a dev, told you two times that it was broken, the math behind it was broken. Yet you still defend when it was broken.
Repurchase the brain from the Exchange you moron. I'm horrified at the idea that I'm sharing oxygen with you.
Your contradicting yourself. You say that it is not PvPers fault but indirectly admits its PvPs fault.
We all know SS was never OP in PvE. So how can it be rationalized it being change because of it being OP when it was never OP in PvE in the first place.
This statement would have been sufficient- SS was nerfed because it was OP in PvP.
SS was OP in PvE in the estimation of the only people who matter when making these decisions - the Devs. You are free to disagree with that assessment if you like, but the idea that PvPers somehow control the game is on face absurd. The Devs control the game, and there is no evidence that they are particularly interested in listening to PvPers. Instead, there's a lot of evidence that PvPers, being generally more savvy about system mastery, are more likely to identify the same problems/outliers that the Devs can ID with their own internal data mining. At best, your argument is that PvPers are better at pointing the Devs in the direction of things that are broken, but it's still the Devs who go in, verify the issue, decide if it is worth fixing, and then what the fix would be.
Go to the bottom of that guy's post, right under the dotted lines. Which by the way, to his credit, his post is in the PvP discussion section and not general discussion, but anyway.
He says "PvP requires higher quality assurance"
In PvE "we are exceptional"
Goes on to say PvPers have degrees in programming and mathematics and are willing to help the devs out with their job.
How arrogant, rude, and presumptuous. So yes, I have a sordid opinion of PvPers. More than that, the entire thread reflects a hatred from PvPers for the whole community. All people need to do to see it is to go to the PvP section and see how they view the players who don't play their way.
Shockingly, you clearly didn't understand the post you linked to here, because your assessment of it is, in fact, objectively completely off base.
Let's start with the "we are exceptional" line that you seem to think is rude or arrogant. You evidently missed the fact that what the poster was saying was that ALL characters are exceptional in the PvE storyline, by design. He's saying that we all like to feel like the invincible solo hero in our plot-armored super-ships, and so a power that over performs is generally not problematic for people, since it fits with the overall narrative that most players prefer - that within the world of the game our characters are exceptional, hyper-competent bad-asses who can nearly single-handedly save the Federation/Republic/Empire.
Then we have "PvP requires higher quality assurance", which I guess you somehow took to be a shot at the quality of PvE players, but was in fact an assessment that as a result of the previous idea (that overpowered abilities are less of a problem in PvE because generally they still fit with the narrative most players want), careful attention to balance and constant re-evaluation of the effectiveness of various combinations of powers is less important in PvE play than it is in PvP play. Put another way, the argument is simply that it is harder to "balance" powers for PvP than for PvE, which is self-evidently true.
Finally, having identified the issue, the poster then takes the step of suggesting/offering a solution (really, more like a plea) - let the PvP community help with the difficult task of balancing powers, because the PvP community (being the ones who use the powers in PvP) are better suited to understanding the balance issues in play, and the community as a whole has the kind of expertise which would be necessary to evaluate both the problems and workshop potential solutions. Saying "I think we can help fix this problem" is hardly arrogant.
Who was the toxic community again? The ultimate truth is that PvPers, in every game always have the most wide and extensive knowledge of game powers and mechanics. Did you know that Ryan (the dps legend) used to be a a PvPer? Same goes for many others I've met in the past before things degenerated with DR. They're legends because they can outsmart players, not NPCs.
pvp and pve players look at abilities, and their compilation into builds, from different perspectives. it is the mathmatically minded who have the best knowledge of game powers.. regardless of play style preferance. they are the ones that take apart the abilities, look at the numbers and formulas in depth, and then pass that knowledge onto the rest of us. pvp and pve should be represented and catered for differently. suggesting that pvp is more knowledgable than pve about game abilities or mechanics is kinda pretty short sighted, for you to exclaim it as the ultimate truth.. well, thats just a clear sign of elitist arrogance.
OP has some valid points, but let's face it, for the longest time, PvP was Borticus's area of responsibility, and he in short used them as an ad-hoc testing ground. So, things brought up in the PvP forums got extra and sometimes, extraordinary attention which is ironic, given the current sad state of PvP in this game. (I don't PvP)
The ONLY reason I'm no longer active in STO is the lack of open-world pvp.
Open world pvp is the kind of thing that makes me avoid a game. It always seems to attract raging griefers.
(You know, the type who insist that a lv90 char swatting lv20's in WoW is "true PvP, because there are two players involved!" :rolleyes: Or that spending an hour killing all the quest NPCs in a starting zone, so that no new players can do anything, is great fun. If a game has to be cursed with the plague that is PvP, at least it should have the decency to lock it away in an instance where it at least it won't interfere with the game.)
Seems to me PvP/Pve Purists can't understand each other, these two ideologies are far too different from each other. Sad.
PvPers prey on PvEers in games with open PvP.
Assembling your Molten Bore raid on a PvP server was just as much of a slog as the instance was if you weren't in the dominant faction.
"Live and let live" of PvE isn't compatible with the "if it's red, it's dead, especially if it's so far below me in level to have no chance of fighting back" of PvP.
This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
What did you expect? I have been playing games for 18 years and there has never been a common ground between PvE and PvP players; and there probably never will be. That is why so many games tend to segregate the player-bases. It is what it is.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
Was it doing significantly better than intended?! I don't believe that at all. See, Surgical Strikes is one of the most straightforward abilities out there: CrtH x CrtD, by design, from the get-go. Clean and simple. And it wasn't broken in the sense that the Pen Trait was: it was simply, and absolutely WAI. And the players loved it! And then it get severely nerfed, because PvP.
We arrived at these figures after a LOT of internal testing. Parsing using different weapon types, comparing to multiple different firing modes, in many various different weapon configurations.
In all of the tests we performed, even after the above changes, Surgical Strikes reliably outperformed every combination of Weapon Type and Firing Mode we tried, once the player had a reasonable amount of +CritH and +CritD.
Those "reasonable amounts" by the way were 15% Crit Chance, and +200 Crit Severity. Values reasonably obtained by many players, and hilarious outstripped by our high-end performers.
So, despite the reductions contained in these Patch Notes, we feel the ability is still desirable by players properly geared to get the most out of it. We encourage anyone interested in how this affects their performance to copy over to Redshirt and try it out for themselves. Your feedback is welcome. (Parses of before/after performance would be even better!)
...it was what average players could do it with it.
It's the same with why they made Advanced an itsy bitsy bit harder than pre-DR Elite was...cause of what average players were doing.
There's just so much scapegoating that goes on in this game - even when the devs talk about why they've made changes, folks will prefer to scapegoat certain groups.
Open world pvp is the kind of thing that makes me avoid a game. It always seems to attract raging griefers.
(You know, the type who insist that a lv90 char swatting lv20's in WoW is "true PvP, because there are two players involved!" :rolleyes: Or that spending an hour killing all the quest NPCs in a starting zone, so that no new players can do anything, is great fun. If a game has to be cursed with the plague that is PvP, at least it should have the decency to lock it away in an instance where it at least it won't interfere with the game.)
"raging griefers" are exactly the kind of players I like to destroy not mindless Borg drones.
Btw there are other pvp-centric games out there where level 20's are safe from griefers and NPC's can't be killed. How long were you planning on staying level 20 anyway? Level up. Just sayin. As far as PVP interfering with the game if you play long enough you'll discover that PVP is the only challenge left.
However, this is all a moot point since PVP was mangled and crushed and the only people that actually managed to do any "open world" pvp got banned.
There's just so much scapegoating that goes on in this game - even when the devs talk about why they've made changes, folks will prefer to scapegoat certain groups.
So much this! If it isn't the fault of PvPers it's the DPS people who are at fault. Honestly I think we should all blame Doffers. Are they really even playing the game?
But really, I play plenty of other mmos and things get nerfed, changed, boosted, taken out, obsoleted, brought back in. Things change with the game; at least they're supposed to. Nothing would change on the nerf front if they removed pvp. The devs will still find things to be under and over performing. The only thing that will change will be who gets blamed.
Comments
The notion I'm trying to dispell is that all PvPers do is get things nerfed, and that every nerf is because of the big bad boogeyman that is PvP.
Using the example of surgical Strikes, yes, it was brutal in PvP. Yes, PvPers called for it to get nerfed.
However, it was nerfed because it was OP, not because PvPers were upset or whined about it.
Agreed! PvPers hurt this game far more than any dev. Plus they have some sort of vendetta against dps in PvE.
"Go and have a wee, the second act gets considerably weirder." -Tim Minchin
wow, this comment is so off base, idk even what to say...
Your contradicting yourself. You say that it is not PvPers fault but indirectly admits its PvPs fault.
We all know SS was never OP in PvE. So how can it be rationalized it being change because of it being OP when it was never OP in PvE in the first place.
This statement would have been sufficient- SS was nerfed because it was OP in PvP.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1427051
Go to the bottom of that guy's post, right under the dotted lines. Which by the way, to his credit, his post is in the PvP discussion section and not general discussion, but anyway.
He says "PvP requires higher quality assurance"
In PvE "we are exceptional"
Goes on to say PvPers have degrees in programming and mathematics and are willing to help the devs out with their job.
How arrogant, rude, and presumptuous. So yes, I have a sordid opinion of PvPers. More than that, the entire thread reflects a hatred from PvPers for the whole community. All people need to do to see it is to go to the PvP section and see how they view the players who don't play their way.
"Go and have a wee, the second act gets considerably weirder." -Tim Minchin
Yes, it was OP in PvP.
But Bort clearly indicated that it was performing beyond its design intentions in PvE as well. He nerfed/fixed it because of that; not solely because it was OP in PvP.
Don't waste your breath. These are the same people who would also refuse to admit that the 300% increase in performance from Ultra Rare to Epic Mk XIV old doping consoles was not OP as well. If they could, they'd blame that change on PvPers too, except it wouldn't make any sense as the Dots are too easily cleared.
You're either too stubborn or too stupid to understand.
Borticus, a dev, told you two times that it was broken, the math behind it was broken. Yet you still defend when it was broken.
Repurchase the brain from the Exchange you moron. I'm horrified at the idea that I'm sharing oxygen with you.
What?
Yes, there is a toxic community, but we all know why that is.
This entire thread is to show that PvP has its benefits to PvE too, don't just ignore those.
How can there be a vendetta against DPS when many high DPS folks are PvPers? Ryan, the top DPS guy, used to be a PvP guy...
SS was OP in PvE in the estimation of the only people who matter when making these decisions - the Devs. You are free to disagree with that assessment if you like, but the idea that PvPers somehow control the game is on face absurd. The Devs control the game, and there is no evidence that they are particularly interested in listening to PvPers. Instead, there's a lot of evidence that PvPers, being generally more savvy about system mastery, are more likely to identify the same problems/outliers that the Devs can ID with their own internal data mining. At best, your argument is that PvPers are better at pointing the Devs in the direction of things that are broken, but it's still the Devs who go in, verify the issue, decide if it is worth fixing, and then what the fix would be.
I was wondering how long it would take you to enter the fray.
Well, I'll gladly cut off your supply, if that makes you feel any better. :P
As for your usual ad hominems, yawn. PvP-ers are so predictable.
Shockingly, you clearly didn't understand the post you linked to here, because your assessment of it is, in fact, objectively completely off base.
Let's start with the "we are exceptional" line that you seem to think is rude or arrogant. You evidently missed the fact that what the poster was saying was that ALL characters are exceptional in the PvE storyline, by design. He's saying that we all like to feel like the invincible solo hero in our plot-armored super-ships, and so a power that over performs is generally not problematic for people, since it fits with the overall narrative that most players prefer - that within the world of the game our characters are exceptional, hyper-competent bad-asses who can nearly single-handedly save the Federation/Republic/Empire.
Then we have "PvP requires higher quality assurance", which I guess you somehow took to be a shot at the quality of PvE players, but was in fact an assessment that as a result of the previous idea (that overpowered abilities are less of a problem in PvE because generally they still fit with the narrative most players want), careful attention to balance and constant re-evaluation of the effectiveness of various combinations of powers is less important in PvE play than it is in PvP play. Put another way, the argument is simply that it is harder to "balance" powers for PvP than for PvE, which is self-evidently true.
Finally, having identified the issue, the poster then takes the step of suggesting/offering a solution (really, more like a plea) - let the PvP community help with the difficult task of balancing powers, because the PvP community (being the ones who use the powers in PvP) are better suited to understanding the balance issues in play, and the community as a whole has the kind of expertise which would be necessary to evaluate both the problems and workshop potential solutions. Saying "I think we can help fix this problem" is hardly arrogant.
pvp and pve players look at abilities, and their compilation into builds, from different perspectives. it is the mathmatically minded who have the best knowledge of game powers.. regardless of play style preferance. they are the ones that take apart the abilities, look at the numbers and formulas in depth, and then pass that knowledge onto the rest of us. pvp and pve should be represented and catered for differently. suggesting that pvp is more knowledgable than pve about game abilities or mechanics is kinda pretty short sighted, for you to exclaim it as the ultimate truth.. well, thats just a clear sign of elitist arrogance.
Let's see them address the balancing issues involved there. Not gonna happen.
Open world pvp is the kind of thing that makes me avoid a game. It always seems to attract raging griefers.
(You know, the type who insist that a lv90 char swatting lv20's in WoW is "true PvP, because there are two players involved!" :rolleyes: Or that spending an hour killing all the quest NPCs in a starting zone, so that no new players can do anything, is great fun. If a game has to be cursed with the plague that is PvP, at least it should have the decency to lock it away in an instance where it at least it won't interfere with the game.)
PvPers prey on PvEers in games with open PvP.
Assembling your Molten Bore raid on a PvP server was just as much of a slog as the instance was if you weren't in the dominant faction.
"Live and let live" of PvE isn't compatible with the "if it's red, it's dead, especially if it's so far below me in level to have no chance of fighting back" of PvP.
Yeah, no, see....
...it was what average players could do it with it.
It's the same with why they made Advanced an itsy bitsy bit harder than pre-DR Elite was...cause of what average players were doing.
There's just so much scapegoating that goes on in this game - even when the devs talk about why they've made changes, folks will prefer to scapegoat certain groups.
"raging griefers" are exactly the kind of players I like to destroy not mindless Borg drones.
Btw there are other pvp-centric games out there where level 20's are safe from griefers and NPC's can't be killed. How long were you planning on staying level 20 anyway? Level up. Just sayin. As far as PVP interfering with the game if you play long enough you'll discover that PVP is the only challenge left.
However, this is all a moot point since PVP was mangled and crushed and the only people that actually managed to do any "open world" pvp got banned.
So much this! If it isn't the fault of PvPers it's the DPS people who are at fault. Honestly I think we should all blame Doffers. Are they really even playing the game?
But really, I play plenty of other mmos and things get nerfed, changed, boosted, taken out, obsoleted, brought back in. Things change with the game; at least they're supposed to. Nothing would change on the nerf front if they removed pvp. The devs will still find things to be under and over performing. The only thing that will change will be who gets blamed.