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Let's clear up one giant misconception about PvP and nerfing
praxi5
Member Posts: 1,562 Arc User
Every time PvP is brought up here, people like to claim that all PvP does it get things nerfed, and all PvPers want is to have everything nerfed.
Guess what? That's totally and completely false.
You know that FAW you love to use? Remember when it was useless the first time? Or the second time? Or broken the third time they fixed it?
Who do you think brought the fact that it was A) useless
broken up to the Devs?
I'll give you a clue; it's not the people asking for new costume design choices.
Yes, PvPers do ask for things to be nerfed. Why? Because there really shouldn't be horribly OP things in the game. Does it make sense that you can get strings of 50k+ Crits on NPCs with Beam Arrays, while they sit there utterly defenseless and unable to move because you hit them with Ionic Turbulence? Where's the challenge in that?
Now, here is a short list of things that I can think of, off the top of my head, that PvP has gotten BUFFED. Yes, buffed. As in, boosted, or changed for the betterment of everyone.
And that's not even everything, that's just a short list.
Here's some things that @jarvisandalfred suggested I bring up that people feel PvP HAS gotten nerfed, and why they were.
Guess what? That's totally and completely false.
You know that FAW you love to use? Remember when it was useless the first time? Or the second time? Or broken the third time they fixed it?
Who do you think brought the fact that it was A) useless
broken up to the Devs?I'll give you a clue; it's not the people asking for new costume design choices.
Yes, PvPers do ask for things to be nerfed. Why? Because there really shouldn't be horribly OP things in the game. Does it make sense that you can get strings of 50k+ Crits on NPCs with Beam Arrays, while they sit there utterly defenseless and unable to move because you hit them with Ionic Turbulence? Where's the challenge in that?
Now, here is a short list of things that I can think of, off the top of my head, that PvP has gotten BUFFED. Yes, buffed. As in, boosted, or changed for the betterment of everyone.
- FAW
- Beam Overload
- Torpedo Spread
- Boarding Party (still a joke, though)
- Gravity Well
- Charged Particle Burst
- Tachyon Beam (In case this was confusing, I'm talking about in the past, when it was buffed along with CPB. Not this past buff, where it was done to boost Command sales)
- Tetryon and Polaron Procs
- EPtW/A/E
- Stun/Scramble Immunities
- Targetting QoL improvements (screens aren't cluttered with mine/fighter spam)
- Feedback Pulse
And that's not even everything, that's just a short list.
Here's some things that @jarvisandalfred suggested I bring up that people feel PvP HAS gotten nerfed, and why they were.
- Surgical Strikes: Literally strings of 50k+ hits off of Beam Arrays, the second lowest (base) damage weapon in the game. And the Devs themselves were the ones who tested it and deemed, by their own metrics, that it was OP. Now, you can argue that you "need" it in PvE... but that's not the fault of PvPers or PvP; that's the FAW-centric game design that led to massive NPC HPs.
- Ionic Turbulence: It still disables. It still has a -Res to it. It can just now be resisted, so you can't chain it with PSW/Viral Torp/IT. Also, it's not an "instant hit" anymore, it travels to it's target... just like Scramble Sensors, and torpedoes. Just as it should have from the start.
- Viral Torp: It still does it's disable thing. It's just been changed so now the Immunity Resistance hard counter actually applies to it.
- Beam Overload: Well, it was actually buffed... especially since everyone is PvE is stacking on massive levels of CrtD and BO now has a 100% CrtH.
- PSW: Still does the same damage. Still stuns. Just can't be chained anymore.
- CSV: Throw back example from way back when. I mean like June 2010 or thereabouts, for the sake of an example. CSV was bugged to give a +70% damage modifier (instead of it's intended +25%). When it was fixed, people blamed PvP.
Post edited by praxi5 on
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hint: one shotting ships is overpowered
I kind of agree with the OP and especially this... PvP is all about balance... something this game sorely lacks in any meaningful form.
But yes lets be honest... PvP hasn't gotten anything nerfed in a while... Cryptic's METRICS have gotten everything nerfed... this is simply because PvP is totally ignored by the devs so anything that a PvPer will bring up as being unbalanced is likely to be ignored simply because the devs don't care.
But at the same time I don't think PvP has gotten anything buffed either... for the same reason as above. Cryptic doesn't care what effect PvP has on anything at all.
Just for fairness's sake, can you list the things that people claim PvP got nerfed?
Not only does it make you look better, but it is a good counterpart to your list of things buffed for balance purposes. (off the top of my head, that's Overload, Surgical Strikes, Viral Torp, and Iconic Turbulence, though I'm sure there's more).
I also think, given the relative shield hitpoints of players and NPC's, it's fairly obvious that Tachyon Beam's buff is only beneficial to those people who PvP, and is much more detrimental to people who PvE.
Though, I think realistically we know what's going on. What drives buffs and nerfs is generally going to be a combination of both PvP'ers, PvE'ers, and what is and isn't being purchased. No one group is perfect, no one group is sinful, both of us have our toxic people and our good people, and some people are good at both.
SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci
Tacs are overrated.
Game's best wiki
Build questions? Look here!
You're absolutely right.
I'll go ahead and update the OP with the most recent things people have been upset about PvP nerfing.
You give some decent points for your side of the equation but you fail to acknowledge and understand why people on the opposite side of the coin feel the way they do. I personally believe in alot of cases, pvp when allowed to effect something that's also used in the pve side of a game, almost always does more harm than good. An example of this is the World of ******** game. To give an example of what I mean we'll use the mage class for our illustration. One of the abilities a mage has in game that he/she can use is called Ring of Frost. This ability allows the mage to drop an AOE ring on the ground that takes a second or 2 to fully activate. When it does, for the next 10 seconds any enemy that enters the ring gets frozen in place. The old incarnation allowed the ring to activate instantly. So pretty much it was point and click for the mage to freeze a group of people in place.
Now in terms of pvp was that overpowered, yes it was. In terms of pve was it overpowered, considering all the enemies that couldn't be frozen in place, not really actually. Even then it's pve content. Yes I get the whole "things should be a challenge" argument, and while I agree with that sentiment it's another argument entirely. Now in a game like WoW, very rarely if ever do they specifically tailor an ability to have slightly different effects depending on if it's a pvp or pve fight. An example being if you have an ability that deals x amount of damage to a regular npc mob, but deals n damage to a player. In laymen's terms, very rarely do they separate pvp and pve when it comes to abilities. Getting back to the Ring of Frost example, the ability was changed to add that 2 second activation period.
Since WoW doesn't separate pvp and pve, a change made to an ability for a pvp reason could effect pve and often does. The opposite of that is also true, a change made to an ability for a pve reason can also effect pvp. In other words they're trying to do the same thing twice and expect different results which is the definition of insanity. Continuing with my Ring of Frost example; it may not seem like a big deal to the pvp guy that and ability was changed because to him it needed a nerf. Yet to the pve guy it is a big deal. For the pve guy what he see's is an ability he likes being changed because of the demands of people he'll never play the game with, and he's eating a nerf because of pvp. To put that into real world terms, to the pve guy it's like he lives out in the countryside in Virginia where he can target shoot with his shotgun 24 hours a day non-stop if he chooses to, but someone out in California complains about the noise and now a law is passed that says he can only target shoot from 10am until 5pm and he must wait at least 10 minutes between shots. Why should he be restricted when his use of his shotgun has literally no effect on the noise level out in California. In other words, why should he have to pay for it in pve when the problem existed in pvp.
I happen to fall into that camp that things similar. I understand sometimes abilities have to be changed because they're either too strong or too weak. However I find it moronic that a nerf to an ability for a pvp reason is allowed to effect pve, when both sides have very little if anything at all to do with each other. When people see their abilities changed time and again based on pvp, a game mode they have no interest in playing, why would you not expect them to get a little poed. When the pve guy asks for ability x to be buffed to help him out, the idea gets shot down because it would make class A too strong in pvp. Yet when the pvp guy asks for ability z to get nerfed because it makes class A too strong in pvp it goes through, even though it hurts pve.
You may not like it but that's the way people on the opposite side of the coin sometimes see it. They see people they've never played with, in a completely different game mode, trying to dictate them what abilities need to be nerfed or buffed based on the pvp needs.
In any game if you ever want to have a snowballs chance in hell of balance, you need to separate pvp from pve. It's not that difficult to add a portion of code that says, if a player is hit with ability A, then it does X amount of damage, but if its an npc that was hit, it does N amount of damage.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
Gravity Well got horribly nerfed, by PvP-ers, almost the moment it was released. It used to have an incredible pull; but with too many PvP-ers bundled up, defenseless, it mysteriously got nerfed extremely fast. Years later the Devs buffed GW1 a bit, to cater to what was then called Escorts Online, but GW was never restored to its former glory. Not even close.
Buffing Tachyon Beam had nothing to do with PvP-ers asking for it. Out of the blue, Bort recently suddenly announced Tachyon Beam had been buffed; no one had really been asking for it. And he implemented it horridly wrong too, so really only the Borg Spheres wound up being the great benefactors of this 'benevolent' buff.
Yes, you got Surgical Strikes nerfed; and Ionic Turbulence. And feel justified because you feel they really needed nerfing. I say that was unreasonable. And, if for nothing else, because PvP-ers only make up for like 1% of the playerbase. That basically makes *every* severe nerf you suggest unreasonable, by definition, as you're demanding that 99% suffer, just so the 1% can have a good time of it. Whilst that other 99% actually paid good money for all those Intel ships.
And that is really the underlining issue: you superimpose what you deem balanced, in a 1on1 fight, onto 99% of the playerbase who are not adversely affected by these good powers at all.
I'm not saying things like Surgical Strikes weren't problematic in PvP; but PvE and PvP are apples and oranges: 99 apples vs. 1 orange, rather, where the 1 orange feels justified dictating what the 99 apples can, and more to the point, can't have.
Testing stuff in PvP is bad way to say how it fairs in PvE.
For example, pre nerf state of Surgical strike. It wasnt in anyway OP in PVE. How can it be? It never outDPS FAW in practice nor can it one shot a tac cube or the borg queen or all capital ships or even most mobs in Elite.
Now if you can show me an ability that can do 14-16M damage in one shot which is enough to one shot a Borg queen at elite, now that is OP. Of course that ability doesnt exist otherwise we would have 3 secs ISA finishes.
When it was first made to 100% crit, it became a useful skill. The base damage was nerfed to keep it from being overpowered, and it still had a chance to miss. However, in PVP there were players that were getting killed by it because they didn't have a build to help defend against it.
So, it was nerfed again. Now it does no more damage than it did before it was made to do 100% crits. I used to do more damage with it on a build that was not designed specifically for BO, and that is without a crit. Now I do less damage with a specific build that is designed to take advantage of it with AP weapons.
The problem is not PVP vs PVE. I know that there are thread out there that blame PVP for nerfs, and ones like this one that try to say that PVP should be thanked.
Point is that it is because there is NO separation between the two that is the problem. Look back at the example of BO that I gave. If it was nerfed for PVP because players there couldn't, or wouldn't adapt to it, but left the PVE side alone, then it would have been good on both ends.
The PVPers wouldn't need to change their builds to make up for the skill being more effective, and at the same time, it wouldn't have become no better for PVE than what it was before it was ever changed.
A lot of skills are like this. The developers are not setting it up so that the skills are adjusted differently from one to the other. If they hear that it is op, and players are getting killed by it in PVP, then it is nerfed.
If the NPCs are killing players left and right, then they don't jump the gun to try to nerf it. This gives players a chance to try to adapt to it first.
But the main thing that needs to be done is a separation between PVE, and PVP when adjusting skills. If this is done, then it will go a long way to bringing balance to the skills and abilities in the game. They did it with the flanking damage from raiders, and it kept the raiders from getting nerfed extremely quickly. Why not do the same with skills.
In PVE they are harder hitting than in PVP because of the huge amounts of hp pool that enemies have. And in PVP they can be weaker so that it doesn't kill ones that don't have builds designed to defend against them. It would work for all the different skills and traits.
Se ehow long until the PvP server runs on a minimal player base and how quickly they will be back to the PvE server complaining.
No. We really shouldn't.
Sorry but you dont need Five tacs to do most of your PvE missions. If you are aiming for record runs yes, you need tacs. but there are 70k+ DPS sci toons using recluse, 60k+ DPS engineers, 50k+ sci vestas, 50k+ tanks. Unless you want your name to beside Ryan's and Felisean's in the DPS table, you dont need Tacs to finish PvE missions.
Dedicated Tanks and support are viable. Those tanks and support are preferred the harder the mission or the objective is. So if you are aiming for top DPS you need recluse nannies. If you planning to slack and do easy mission like ISA, you dont need tanks and support ships. However, once mission start becomes harder, those roles are now preferred.
Just because forum/pvp people dont know nor you dont know how effective tanks or supports ships can be in PvE doesnt mean they are not effective nor they dont exist.
Actually, one has to rule. Its either one power or either. There is diversity in the current game mechanics, All are viable. Ryan just showed how DHC escorts can do 80k+ DPS in one of his vid. Except he had to show it to those who thinks that other weapons are not viable.
Yes, the most efficient and effective way is BFAW. But like I said something is got to be on top of the others.
Like I said above, just because you dont know it doesnt mean they arent viable in PvE.
For PVE, the goal is for a player to be able to take on a very large number of ships of equal tier, and have a decent fight without being blown up.
For PVP, the goal is for a player to be able to take on ONE ship of equal tier, with a 50/50 chance of being blown up.
Gear and build optimization need to have a big effect for the former to be true. And since enemies have a very high HP due to delta, players need to be able to dish out way more damage than they have HP.
Fundamentally the two areas of the game are aiming for different levels of balance, and attempting to use the same mechanics for PCs and NPCs just isn't a good idea.
You could cap the High DPS folks, and things that were too easy would still get fixed.
It's far easier for many folks to scapegoat and make excuses than to look at what they're doing.
There wasn't a single PvE-er out of there who cried to see Ionic Turbulence nerfed. PvP-ers, however, did, 'For three (almost four) months.' And then Ionic Turbulence got nerfed. Badly. To a lame 'Shoot something in the general direction of a foe' ability.
That's not going out on a limb, LOL: that's just your normal MO. Happened in the last SS3 thread too (remember, the thread where you were all screaming to get SS3 nerfed!?). I've gotten used to it by now. Call a PvP-er on his nerfing habits, expect a lot of personal attacks. Part of the PvP smack-talk mentality, I suppose.
This one is rich! Hahaha! we finally *had* something other than BFAW. It was called Surgical Strikes. You killed it.
So, riddle me this then, if Surgical Strikes and Ionic Turbulence "don't do squat in PvE," then why did the entire PvE community see Intel killed before their eyes?! I'll give you a hint: because PvP.
And that, man-friend, is why PvP nerfs should not spill over to PvE.
And BO got immediately nerfed, literally either the very next day (or the day thereafter), and had its base dmg significantly reduced.
On a whole, they listen very poorly. Generally speaking, they listen to (non-specific requests from) PvE-ers to increase the power creep. And then they exclusively listen to the PvP-ers to see those things nerfed.
Sooooooo missing the point!
* Surgical Strikes wasn't OP in PvE at all. BFAW rules in PvE.
* Surgical Strikes *was* OP in PvP.
Result? Surgical Strikes got nerfed for everyone. Can't put it simpler than that.
So... you just want to go on using FAW or whatever the new OP spec/BOff abilities are, let your old ships and gear fall by the wayside, and continue down the stream of power creep?
That "lame" Ionic you speak of? It works in the same way that Scramble Sensors, Torpedoes, and other "projectiles" work - it has a travel time instead of an instahit. Now it goes to a targetted area, instead of following someone. God forbid you actually have to use some coordination, instead of just firing it off and getting a Gravity Well 2.0 for no effort!
Surgical Strikes is still the amazing for PvE. It's still a great choice for single targets. And you're forgetting; it was the Devs themselves that did they testing. They themselves said it was performing outside their design intentions.
If an ability literally doing far more than it was designed and intended to isn't the definition of OP, what is?
'Worst STF thread'?! LOL, I don't think I've seen it yet. Should I?! :P Part of me tells me I probably shouldn't.
Things that work well in a PvP environment don't have to work well in PvE and even less if it is supposed to be a Star Trek game (star trek = very different rules of everything).
So the more PvP the game gets the less Star Trek will be left (just my personal opinion, btw).
What's the matter with PvP threats lately?
How have you missed that thread????
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=262305
347 pages of people mostly ******** about other people.
Meh, nothing new. You get one person asking for PvP development, and then everyone decides to jump down PvP's throats falsely accusing it of ruining the game and kicking their dog.
Because PvEers in this game want to do it all; DPS, CC, tank. With minimal effort on their own, with no build or tactic changes, against NPCs that don't even offer the tiniest bit of resistance.
We saw what happens when they gave NPCs EPtE or Tachyon Beam.
Everyone gets upset because PvP calls for reliable 50k+ strings of hits to get fixed. No one wants to comment on the torrents of tears that were streaming when NPCs simply moved quickly and players were upset that they had to do something other than sitting over the Transformer/Generator and FAW away.
If PVP causes PVE to be unplayable, I'll go elsewhere.
I think all these PVP threads are designed to make the game designers think PVP is more popular than it is.
Or... people are fed up with 5 years of neglect from the Devs and want to finally see a change?
There's no way to prove it, but I highly doubt PvP was ever the cause for server lag.