And thus you refuse to see the perspective of people that actually have to deal with being put at a disadvantage, or of those who had to give up their favourite ship. :P
No, you're refusing to see it.
Your wonderful overpowered Surgical Strikes means that if someone wants to fly a Defiant, Patrol Escort or even a Guardian, he's at disadvantage, because you can't use Surgical Strikes.
On the other hand - if Surgical Strikes is balanced compared to all the other DPS boosting powers , then you can freely choose whether you use a Phantom, Defiant, Patrol Escort, Guardian or Eclipse, because all choices give you an equal opportunity.
And if the game had a better balance in general, and was not weighted so heavily in favour of DPS builds (or DPS builds were feasible with any class of Bridge Officer powers), then a ship like the Galaxy wouldn't have been considered as the weakest Cruiser, and people wouldn't have needed to ask for a Galaxy Class with a Lt.Cmdr Tactical slot.
Get stuff balanced and you have fewer problems like this.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Don't tell me PVPers want "fair and balanced." They don't. The PVPer definition of "fair and balanced" is "It's fair when I can gank people without having them fight back and its not balanced if I can't." That's the name of the game. Kill or be killed and if you look at some of the more popular (and notorious) PVP centric games that's how you survive.
This is not quite on target.
The fact of the matter is that there are PvP players and there are other PvP players, and they don't always see the game the same way.
Yes, PvP players will chase after that 'edge' to win. It's what they do.
But at least some PvP players recognize that "shooting fish in a barrel" is only fun for a little while. They'd rather have challenging matches than racking up easy kill after easy kill. And they definitely don't like being on the wrong end of that equation, which is why a lot of PvP players dislike unbalanced game mechanics.
After all, the OP tactic, power, or build that leaves you defenseless can probably be turned right back around in a way that doesn't favor them.
I've read more than enough posts to realize that by-and-large, not universally but often, it's players who participate in PvP who notice when a power isn't working the way the power seems to be intended. Because they're the ones looking at the numbers, who excel at buildcraft, and who are dreaming up how to use these powers in unexpected ways.
Me, I just play the PvE missions, read the story, and watch the SFX. As long as the NPC's aren't blowing my warp core every five minutes, I'm content.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
You make a good point, but would you be surprised to learn that the overall difference between exploiters or locaters with SS is tiny? And it's currently in favor of locators with the latest nerf?
Funny you should mention that, as my whole earlier request for a test-dummy was precisely about finding out the difference in such variations! So, thanks for the metrics! (no sarcasm intended, btw) I shall try a new Locator setup forthwith.
Except, on my end of the door, there's 99% of the playerbase suffering penalties, because that 1% on the other end of the door couldn't win in PvP.
Frankly do you have any data what so ever to back up this claim?
If one look at average MMOs player types, when one can conclude that players who play exclusive PvE or PvP are the minority. The usual player which represents the majority participates in both PvE and PvP, ofcourse in one more then the other to some degree.
The fact of the matter is that there are PvP players and there are other PvP players, and they don't always see the game the same way.
Yes, PvP players will chase after that 'edge' to win. It's what they do.
But at least some PvP players recognize that "shooting fish in a barrel" is only fun for a little while. They'd rather have challenging matches than racking up easy kill after easy kill. And they definitely don't like being on the wrong end of that equation, which is why a lot of PvP players dislike unbalanced game mechanics.
After all, the OP tactic, power, or build that leaves you defenseless can probably be turned right back around in a way that doesn't favor them.
I've read more than enough posts to realize that by-and-large, not universally but often, it's players who participate in PvP who notice when a power isn't working the way the power seems to be intended. Because they're the ones looking at the numbers, who excel at buildcraft, and who are dreaming up how to use these powers in unexpected ways.
Me, I just play the PvE missions, read the story, and watch the SFX. As long as the NPC's aren't blowing my warp core every five minutes, I'm content.
Pretty much this. PvPers keep working on their builds to do stuff in unconventional ways. I'm pretty sure that if I'd have post my Aventine or Scimitar builds here the vast majority would have absolutely no idea of how it works. All I can say about my Scimitar is that I alternate AtD and AtB cycles to match cloaking/decloaking periods, rotating EPTE and EPTW with a bind to execute rock and roll in dire circumstances and one that decloaks, tractors, and loads Spread 3 to minimize activation times. And that makes up for just a part of the story.
My Aventine... well... can control the enemy's buffs, discourage enemy's spike damage from both energy and kinetic weapons, keeps a team intact, immobilizes the other team while debuffing at the same time to make the tac's work easier.
On the other side my Science Odyssey is... well... a giant unkillable supertank that dishes out zero damage but heals like crazy. This thing has no place in PvE, there's no healer role in PvE.
What makes PvP fun are combinations like the above. Cause those are just two examples, they're infinte. Every PvPer has their own and their own ways to deal with the enemy. If you mix those and put them in a team, you have a PvP team where each of those ships helps the others.
When SS3 & Co. came out all of the above collapsed, there was no point in trying to build something original because it wouldn't have worked anymore. We had only a bunch of broken toys that weren't funny because "shooting fish in a barrel" gets boring quickly.
What's sad is that exactly one year ago I know I was playing PvP with my mates and fleetmates in OPvP, laughing on TS while setting ESD on fire in the meantime we were preparing a match. Now... now it's all gone.
Me, I just play the PvE missions, read the story, and watch the SFX. As long as the NPC's aren't blowing my warp core every five minutes, I'm content.
Heh, it's funny how many things I'll fly with just because they look or sound cool. Playing around with numbers on the forums is fun for me, worrying about numbers in the game not so much. They need to do Vaadwaur Biomatter weapons...so I can get the travel FX of the Vaad with the Needle FX of the Biomatter...I'd be lost then, going googoo-gaga like a baby with a toy.
I am trying very hard to moderate this conversation because it's getting out of hand.
Please do not respond to inflammatory or hostile posts with inflammatory or hostile remarks.
PM me if necessary.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
here's the damned answer. Official. SS3 was officially broken. Broken enough there was no reason to run fire at will, cannon rapid fire and cannon scatter volley. If it wasn't for PvPers, it would have never been fixed.
And therein lies the paradox .
One man's "broken" is another man's fun .
As an ex-PVP-er, I often find myself supporting the fixes they suggest , but that does not mean I did not get burned by one or two "suggestions" .
Example :
Once upon a time, a Caitian/ Ferasan TAC could do the Kirk kick and then the scratch-scratch attacks back to back .
It was a fun thing to do, both in PVP and in PVE .
But then the PVP-ers found a way to chain it with stealth, and suddenly it was deemed an "exploit" .
So it was "fixed" .
Can you guess how long Caitians & Ferasans were out by that point ?
Feasans , over a year .
Caitians, close to 2 years if not longer .
Thus here's the thing : I don't like it when something gets altered a looooong time after I purchased it .
That's not "fixing" something . That's altering the deal (Darth Vader style) .
... and that's just one more example where hitching PVP stats to PVE (and vice versa) is a bad deal for all concerned, and it will continue to be a bad deal as long as it lasts ...
we've also been begging, pleading, screaming for leaderboards, a revamp of PvP rewards, matchmaking, fixes to broken interface mechanics (going over half a year now that KDF don't show on the scoreboard-at all. Like they don't even exist)
Being right doesn't equal being listened to. PvP is NOT listened to. Most of the people in influential positions at Cryptic have made this point quite clear in the past-publicly. It's why I view Geko as an opponent/enemy of PvP in the first place, and why I've kept a list of devs that developed rapport with the pvp community-most of whom are no longer working on STO, or even at Cryptic in some cases.
because listening to PvP is a career killer at Cryptic.
Gozer
AdjudicatorHawk
Branflakes...
any of those names ring a bell? Borticus must have nine lives-he manages to NOT get fired or quit in spite of occasionally talking to the PvP forums-talking to them. not even talking about doing **** for them, just civil conversation.
Tacofangs has openly admitted the map-guys at Cryptic can't make a PvP map-they literally don't know the code well enough.
and nobody, apparently, has time to learn it.
PvP things get broke and it's obvious that they stay that way.
It's no secret PvP is too small for Cryptic to really do anything with. Didn't Geko recently say they had no plans for PvP whatsoever?! (or words to that affect). Kinda sad, actually. I mean, I'd say, either do something with it, or just graciously let it go.
Your above post was actually quite reasonable, so I should probably leave my participation in this thread at that. While it *does* feel to me only the PvP Community has Borticus' ear, exclusively, point is, SS3 has *already* been nerfed. And I'm fair certain he's not gonna listen to me asking for an un-nerf. :P
It's no secret PvP is too small for Cryptic to really do anything with. Didn't Geko recently say they had no plans for PvP whatsoever?! (or words to that affect). Kinda sad, actually. I mean, I'd say, either do something with it, or just graciously let it go.
Your above post was actually quite reasonable, so I should probably leave my participation in this thread at that. While it *does* feel to me only the PvP Community has Borticus' ear, exclusively, point is, SS3 has *already* been nerfed. And I'm fair certain he's not gonna listen to me asking for an un-nerf. :P
Your un-nerf will not be listened to because it has no proof in mathematics. Is it that hard?
Show me proof what you say is correct. And with proof I mean data, comparison that takes into account every last bit of information and possibilities. You still have to do that.
We can't quite do the same thing for Surgical, because we've also had the +40% Accuracy and +40% CrtH in play. Against a target with 0% Defense (averaging out between a slow moving target and a parked target, with a parked target having -15% Defense and it requiring 24+ Impulse to get to +45%)...that would be ~3.57% more CrtH and ~14.29% more CrtD.
So, despite the reductions contained in these Patch Notes, we feel the ability is still desirable by players properly geared to get the most out of it.
And trying to compare Surgical to FAW is the same as trying to compare CRF/BO/etc to FAW or CSV...it's just not going to work in this game. Folks have argued the FAW thing forever (even with CSV being thrown into the mix)...and they've been told it's not going to work the way they think it should. It's never going be 50% damage to two targets or 50%/33% to two/three targets. Multiple target abilities are going to outperform single target abilities for DPS.
As for why if Surgical3 was so powerful compared to CRF3/etc, why weren't folks using Intel boats? Not only weren't there Fleet Intel boats but there was no Intel Scimitar...imagine if there had been, eh?
I've said it before, and I'll say it again - not as a reflection on the folks they've got - but imho they're simply understaffed for the production schedule they have. So we end up with the same cycle after each of the releases, ohhhhhhpower and then the time later to address that. Same goes for things that are underpowered too...it's going to take time to get that addressed.
While I agree with the schedule issue and the fix-nerfs, its been my experience that things mostly get buffed periodically , and very rarely do new items get any significant boosts (not counting slapping on a hangar if something is not selling) .
But folks will go on blaming the PvPers...course, folks blame the DPSers too ("stop posting vids, Cryptic will nerf stuff" is a common complaint too).
If you can't see the difference in intent between say ... Thissler's PVP vids and the trololol vids posted by a certain DPS crew then that's your issue .
And I also think you got the concerns mixed up , as Cryptic is likely to boost the NPC's due to the DPS videos, even if those represent the warped reality of a few, not the actual reality of the majority .
... same goes for the "reasonable amount" of 15% CrtH and 200% CrtD that "many can achieve" (but many indeed don't) ...
If you can't see the difference between Thissler's PVP vids and the trololol vids posted by a certain DPS crew then that's your issue .
And I also think you got the concerns mixed up , as Cryptic is likely to boost the NPC's due to the DPS videos, as those represent the warped reality of a few, not the actual reality of the majority .
That you see them as trololol vids...well, I'm not sure I'm the one with the issue. I don't bunch up any undergarments at their vids.
ISA...requires ~1-2k DPS per person more than ISE did. So you're going to say that the folks that were doing 50-90k DPS caused a ~1-2k DPS increase in the requirement? Cause yeah, that's going to slow them down! The guys that are now doing 75-120k DPS got slowed down by that!
Yeah...no.
Average folks. They're the Evil Ones. They're the folks that Cryptic notices. That majority...is who Cryptic caters to and adjusts things for...
Average folks doing things too quickly, there are going to be some changes. Average folks doing too much damage, there are going to be some changes. Average folks...they're ruining the fun for all those massively below average folks. Well, no...not all of them - cause it's only an extreme minority that's ever whining about things.
The fact of the matter is that there are PvP players and there are other PvP players, and they don't always see the game the same way.
Yes, PvP players will chase after that 'edge' to win. It's what they do.
But at least some PvP players recognize that "shooting fish in a barrel" is only fun for a little while. They'd rather have challenging matches than racking up easy kill after easy kill. And they definitely don't like being on the wrong end of that equation, which is why a lot of PvP players dislike unbalanced game mechanics.
After all, the OP tactic, power, or build that leaves you defenseless can probably be turned right back around in a way that doesn't favor them.
I've read more than enough posts to realize that by-and-large, not universally but often, it's players who participate in PvP who notice when a power isn't working the way the power seems to be intended. Because they're the ones looking at the numbers, who excel at buildcraft, and who are dreaming up how to use these powers in unexpected ways.
Me, I just play the PvE missions, read the story, and watch the SFX. As long as the NPC's aren't blowing my warp core every five minutes, I'm content.
Heh, some of the best forum PvP has been between the PvPers looking to shoot fish in a barrel and the PvPers looking for somebody to put a team together for some heinous action.
Average folks. They're the Evil Ones. They're the folks that Cryptic notices. That majority...is who Cryptic caters to and adjusts things for...
I wouldn't call them "the evil ones" but besides that you're as usually spot on from my point of view.
The whole blame game could be diminished if broken items/ability's which are already spotted by players on tribble and red shirt wouldn't find there way to holodeck. If one would brake the cycle and try to realease things slightly later but with less bugs. Of course there will be always bugs and unindented consequences, when things hit holodeck and thousands of players get to play the stuff which was only tested by few on a different server with a different version.
Frankly one can't reasonably expect perfections from human beings and the majority knows that.
That you see them as trololol vids...well, I'm not sure I'm the one with the issue. I don't bunch up any undergarments at their vids.
When you come up with another definition that describes turning Cryptic's "end game" into a public laughing stock , you'll let me know yeah?
ISA...requires ~1-2k DPS per person more than ISE did.
No offense , but I don't believe this .
Not if we take the average DPS in the game pre-DR as something between 4-12K , which is my guesstimate .
(and yes, I may be wrong on those numbers)
Average folks. They're the Evil Ones. They're the folks that Cryptic notices. That majority...is who Cryptic caters to and adjusts things for...
Average folks doing things too quickly, there are going to be some changes. Average folks doing too much damage, there are going to be some changes.
That's some mighty fine generalization right there .
But it does not work on someone who's seen the PVP community acting (for better and for worst) as Cryptic's unofficial QA team FOR YEARS ... , only to be awarded with ... -- well I don't need to spell it out, just look at all the care PVP has gotten over the years .
... wanna hear something really crazy: despite being isolated communities ... , Cryptic and PVE in general have benefitted more from the QA that the PVP crowd did for Cryptic then the QA that the DPS crowd are doing for them now ... -- because the balance needed for PVP is closer to an overall actual balance in PVE then the 5K-75K DPS "balance" is ... , and this will be true as long as in because in the back of one persons mind will be "this is not = balance" , while in the other person's mind will be going "hmmm ... , now with this ability I can haz moar numbers, cool! " ...
In the end, does it really matter? "OP" really only comes into play in PvP, not PvE, and there IS no PvP in STO any more. Back in the days of Atari PvP was a major part of the game, both ground and space, as there were only 2 factions: Starfleet and the Klingons. Since then we've moved further and further from PvP until, well, now... where PvP is really only a tool to test out new builds against friends and fleetmates.
Does that mean we don't require balance in PvE? Of course not. Balance is still essential and OP abilities still require some finesse. However, 'too much' balancing will ruin one of the aspects of the game. Every class (Tac, Eng, Sci) NEEDS 1-2 special class-specific abilities that shine in order to attract players to those classes. If DPS is the only rule to play, we will continue to see a Surge of Tac officers and a tapering of the others.
PvP in STO is dead. Let it go. Let's focus on the game we have and make it as enjoyable as possible rather than trying to resurrect a VERY dead horse.
When you come up with another definition that describes turning Cryptic's "end game" into a laughing stock , you'll let me know yeah?
Average folks kind of did that...and that's why Cryptic made the change in the first place. It was a heinous change, and so they changed it again.
Sticking with the ISE thing...
Elite Content
Optional to pop the Trans before the Nanites get there
Optional to finish after the initial engagement in under 15 minutes
So if the "base" content is Elite, then getting an Optional would be "more" Elite. Getting both Optionals would be "even more" Elite. One didn't need to be "even more" Elite to smoke the content.
Oh noes, average folks were doing it in 5-10 minutes instead of the 1-2 minutes that the DPS folks were doing it! Wait, the Optional was 15 minutes after the initial engagement completes? Hrmm...so yeah.
How about ISA where that Nanite Objective is Mandatory instead of Optional? The vast majority of times, almost exclusively, where I've had that fail is where folks pop the first Gen, the last Gen doesn't get popped for 15-20s or more, and folks have spent most of the time shooting at the Spheres (Trans spawn, not Gate Nanites). There was more than enough DPS for it not to have failed, but folks were...yeah.
How about a TLDR list of ISA runs? All of them public queue random pug runs.
Here, I'll go back and highlight those that took over 15 minutes (even though the 15 minute counter doesn't begin until after the first engagement completes)...that's not many, how about those that took over even 10 minutes, I'll highlight those too...and yeah, not much color going on there.
Maybe Cryptic should drop the Optional down from 15 minutes after the first engagement to 10 minutes from the start of that engagement, eh?
Cause yeah, one might want to point to those DPS guys and their videos...but uh, yeah, they're not the only ones making a mockery of the content.
That's some mighty fine generalization right there .
But it does not work on someone who's seen the PVP community acting (for better and for worst) as Cryptic's unofficial QA team FOR YEARS ... , only to be awarded with ... -- well I don't need to spell it out, just look at all the care PVP has gotten over the years.
I've got no idea why you posted that in reply to what I had said there, which was the following:
"Average folks. They're the Evil Ones. They're the folks that Cryptic notices. That majority...is who Cryptic caters to and adjusts things for...
Average folks doing things too quickly, there are going to be some changes. Average folks doing too much damage, there are going to be some changes."
... wanna hear something really crazy: despite being isolated communities ... , Cryptic and PVE in general have benefitted more from the QA that the PVP crowd did for Cryptic then the QA that the DPS crowd are doing for them now ... -- because the balance needed for PVP is closer to an overall actual balance in PVE then the 5K-75K DPS "balance" is ...
Which has what to do with folks blaming the those 75k+ DPS folks for any changes in the game? It's as bad as folks blaming PvPers for changes in the game.
End game content in this game revolves around the tailor.
The "end game" PvE in this game is essentially the difficulty of content you use to level in other games. This means that either queues are meant to be the way you level (unsure of how rewards are now, but I would assume its still 4000 ISA's to capped spec tree) or are actual end game content.
Let's look at mechanics.
-No healer needed for "end game" stfs
-No tank needed for "end game" stfs
-Bring dps, engage faw, mash space bar to success
-All pass/fail options revolve around killing enemies (with a few rare exceptions, ie: no actual strat besides "We come in peace, shoot to kill."
-Absolutely no positional awareness needed besides "Is my faw inflating my mad deeps by hitting every target possible on my screen regardless of if they cannot currently be damaged"
Let's look at enemies.
-All space enemies have the same laughable level of resists
-All space enemies run power 50/50/50/50
-All space enemies have 2-5 boff powers total
-Barely any space enemies have captain powers (apa,snb,loleng)
-No space enemies have any form of "tactic" to their ai besides shoot at target with highest threat
-No space enemies attempt to gain position on you, ever (ok mogais try to run away from you with attack pattern alpha, ill let that slide)
This "end game" content could be likened to other mmo's version of content rushing for leveling. Example from swtor. No one likes doing planets anymore, so they put a flashpoint in that bolsters you and your group to 55 regardless of what level you enter at, and you face roll you way to victory, racking up a **** ton of exp in the process. "End game" STO = "Power leveling content" in other mmos.
PvP offered an end game, enemies that fought back, with tactics and skills, different builds, different levels of skill, etc. PvP gets blamed for nerfs, yes, because we're the one who can visibly see what's wrong with powers that have no actual use or very niche uses in PvE. If Borg were allowed to fill out bug reports, all you would see is "Schim are op, Faw is op, Recluse pets are op". When those get nerfed, will the community become as toxic towards the DPS guys, who put a hell of a lot of work into their builds, regardless of what they're going to be used for?
PvP got a few things nerfed over the years. So did completing STF's way faster than you should be able to (hello tricos) or no win scenario (hello into darkness), yet PvP gets the lashes for all nerfs. So regardless of myself and my fleet (sp) running Panda Cubs for years, helping with bootcamp, going out of our way to help multiple people over the years after we 15-0'd them because were "pug stomping" in the only pvp queue in the game meant for 5 people, so we're obviously horrible people.
Pvp can never get better and PvPers will never escape this black sheep treatment. Vicious cycle when all we want is the fun pew pew, albeit imbalanced, we had for years. All we keep getting is a Power Shopping spree every 2-3 months that completely replaces everything with nothing but the new stuff. Not cuz its amazing. Because its so grossly over-tuned that anyone who can point their ship at a target is capable of getting kills on any player, regardless of skill level. Ionic Turbulence + Surgical Strikes 3 shoulda taught everyone that. They're too busy shooting defenseless geometrical shapes to notice how op things are. At least we had 3-6 good seasons of pvp, depending on where you consider the "good" part to be.
Running endless ISAs to perfect your PvE build and pick up an additional 0.5k DPS.
Farming for Marks.
Playing through the same content you already did, but under the guise of "omg look, new recruit!" to make you feel better about it.
Chat.
And then there's, PvP. Actually challenging content that's never the same.
See, I'd tend to agree with paxdawn that if folks wanted more than ISA they could hit up HSE. How often do we see folks talking about HSE, eh?
I mean, these are the Elite PvE queues that exist (Space, yeah, I'm biased)...
The Vault: Ensnared (Elite): 2 queued, wait time --
Viscous Cycle (Elite): 1 queued, wait time 4:23
Storming the Spire (Elite): 0 queued, wait time --
The Breach (Elite): 0 queued, wait time --
The Battle of Korfez (Elite): 1 queued, wait time 3:04
Borg Disconnected (Elite): 3 queued, wait time --
Hive Onslaught (Elite): 1 queued, wait time --
Viscous, Storming, Breach, and Hive are just as dead at Advanced. Disconnected has 1 queued, 0 playing, and a 1:30 wait.
They're adding more queues (remember when Geko said there were too many queues) with S10...and they're actually adding Normal, Advanced, and Elite for them.
But in the end, dismissing what those DPS folks are doing as not being a challenge might be the case if everybody and the neighbor's dog was doing it. Cryptic didn't present them with a challenge - they've created a challenge for themselves. It's not my kind of fun, not my kind of challenge, but I can't do what they do and it'd be a challenge for me to do even a quarter of what they do...but it's not my kind of fun and it's hard not to picture it as the "hogger raid" sort of thing as mentioned in another thread. But I'm upfront about it with my mixed message of "kudos - lol, stealing candy from a baby faster and faster - but nope, I suck and can't do it"...trippy, eh?
This game isn't about challenges, though - kind of why there's so much hatred for the PvP and DPS folks, no? Cause they're into challenging stuff, even if they're different kinds of challenges...though, honestly, what PvPers aren't doing the same thing in trying to get their builds better and better to frag another guy?
This game...meh...any time Cryptic's tried to make something the least bit challenging, the forums have flooded. Can tell that not many folks have been testing stuff on Tribble, cause the forums would have washed away already. Can't wait to see what happens as folks take their 1-3k DPS boats into the Elites for some of those new queues...but well, the laughter will be brief and bitter. Cause it will probably all be nerfed into the ground like everything else.
Comments
Your wonderful overpowered Surgical Strikes means that if someone wants to fly a Defiant, Patrol Escort or even a Guardian, he's at disadvantage, because you can't use Surgical Strikes.
On the other hand - if Surgical Strikes is balanced compared to all the other DPS boosting powers , then you can freely choose whether you use a Phantom, Defiant, Patrol Escort, Guardian or Eclipse, because all choices give you an equal opportunity.
And if the game had a better balance in general, and was not weighted so heavily in favour of DPS builds (or DPS builds were feasible with any class of Bridge Officer powers), then a ship like the Galaxy wouldn't have been considered as the weakest Cruiser, and people wouldn't have needed to ask for a Galaxy Class with a Lt.Cmdr Tactical slot.
Get stuff balanced and you have fewer problems like this.
This is not quite on target.
The fact of the matter is that there are PvP players and there are other PvP players, and they don't always see the game the same way.
Yes, PvP players will chase after that 'edge' to win. It's what they do.
But at least some PvP players recognize that "shooting fish in a barrel" is only fun for a little while. They'd rather have challenging matches than racking up easy kill after easy kill. And they definitely don't like being on the wrong end of that equation, which is why a lot of PvP players dislike unbalanced game mechanics.
After all, the OP tactic, power, or build that leaves you defenseless can probably be turned right back around in a way that doesn't favor them.
I've read more than enough posts to realize that by-and-large, not universally but often, it's players who participate in PvP who notice when a power isn't working the way the power seems to be intended. Because they're the ones looking at the numbers, who excel at buildcraft, and who are dreaming up how to use these powers in unexpected ways.
Me, I just play the PvE missions, read the story, and watch the SFX. As long as the NPC's aren't blowing my warp core every five minutes, I'm content.
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Funny you should mention that, as my whole earlier request for a test-dummy was precisely about finding out the difference in such variations!
Frankly do you have any data what so ever to back up this claim?
If one look at average MMOs player types, when one can conclude that players who play exclusive PvE or PvP are the minority. The usual player which represents the majority participates in both PvE and PvP, ofcourse in one more then the other to some degree.
Pretty much this. PvPers keep working on their builds to do stuff in unconventional ways. I'm pretty sure that if I'd have post my Aventine or Scimitar builds here the vast majority would have absolutely no idea of how it works. All I can say about my Scimitar is that I alternate AtD and AtB cycles to match cloaking/decloaking periods, rotating EPTE and EPTW with a bind to execute rock and roll in dire circumstances and one that decloaks, tractors, and loads Spread 3 to minimize activation times. And that makes up for just a part of the story.
My Aventine... well... can control the enemy's buffs, discourage enemy's spike damage from both energy and kinetic weapons, keeps a team intact, immobilizes the other team while debuffing at the same time to make the tac's work easier.
On the other side my Science Odyssey is... well... a giant unkillable supertank that dishes out zero damage but heals like crazy. This thing has no place in PvE, there's no healer role in PvE.
What makes PvP fun are combinations like the above. Cause those are just two examples, they're infinte. Every PvPer has their own and their own ways to deal with the enemy. If you mix those and put them in a team, you have a PvP team where each of those ships helps the others.
When SS3 & Co. came out all of the above collapsed, there was no point in trying to build something original because it wouldn't have worked anymore. We had only a bunch of broken toys that weren't funny because "shooting fish in a barrel" gets boring quickly.
What's sad is that exactly one year ago I know I was playing PvP with my mates and fleetmates in OPvP, laughing on TS while setting ESD on fire in the meantime we were preparing a match. Now... now it's all gone.
Heh, it's funny how many things I'll fly with just because they look or sound cool. Playing around with numbers on the forums is fun for me, worrying about numbers in the game not so much. They need to do Vaadwaur Biomatter weapons...so I can get the travel FX of the Vaad with the Needle FX of the Biomatter...I'd be lost then, going googoo-gaga like a baby with a toy.
One does not even have to go that far, just look at the support PvP got for the last 5 years, just to realize how influential the PvP lobby is lol.
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And therein lies the paradox .
One man's "broken" is another man's fun .
As an ex-PVP-er, I often find myself supporting the fixes they suggest , but that does not mean I did not get burned by one or two "suggestions" .
Example :
Once upon a time, a Caitian/ Ferasan TAC could do the Kirk kick and then the scratch-scratch attacks back to back .
It was a fun thing to do, both in PVP and in PVE .
But then the PVP-ers found a way to chain it with stealth, and suddenly it was deemed an "exploit" .
So it was "fixed" .
Can you guess how long Caitians & Ferasans were out by that point ?
Feasans , over a year .
Caitians, close to 2 years if not longer .
Thus here's the thing : I don't like it when something gets altered a looooong time after I purchased it .
That's not "fixing" something . That's altering the deal (Darth Vader style) .
... and that's just one more example where hitching PVP stats to PVE (and vice versa) is a bad deal for all concerned, and it will continue to be a bad deal as long as it lasts ...
It's no secret PvP is too small for Cryptic to really do anything with. Didn't Geko recently say they had no plans for PvP whatsoever?! (or words to that affect). Kinda sad, actually. I mean, I'd say, either do something with it, or just graciously let it go.
Your above post was actually quite reasonable, so I should probably leave my participation in this thread at that. While it *does* feel to me only the PvP Community has Borticus' ear, exclusively, point is, SS3 has *already* been nerfed. And I'm fair certain he's not gonna listen to me asking for an un-nerf. :P
Your un-nerf will not be listened to because it has no proof in mathematics. Is it that hard?
Show me proof what you say is correct. And with proof I mean data, comparison that takes into account every last bit of information and possibilities. You still have to do that.
CRF3: 1.5x DPS
Surgical3: 1.4x DPS
That's without the +Acc, +CrtH, and taking CrtD into account.
Going with the "reasonable amount" of 15% CrtH and 200% CrtD, we'd see the following outside of any additional boosts at play...
CRF3: 1.5 * 1.3 = 1.95x DPS (1.3 = (1 + (0.15 * 2.0)))
We can't quite do the same thing for Surgical, because we've also had the +40% Accuracy and +40% CrtH in play. Against a target with 0% Defense (averaging out between a slow moving target and a parked target, with a parked target having -15% Defense and it requiring 24+ Impulse to get to +45%)...that would be ~3.57% more CrtH and ~14.29% more CrtD.
Surgical3: 1.4 * 2.26 = 3.16x DPS (2.26 = (1 + ((0.15 + 0.0357 + 0.4) * (2.0 + 0.1429))))
So yeah, 1.95x vs. 3.16x; kind of stands out like a sore thumb.
We move on to the changes they made March 26th then, and...
40% Acc -> 32% Acc
40% CrtH -> 32% CrtH
Base Modifier - 21.5% (looks to be closer to a 26.67% decrease...hrmmm)
Surgical3: 1.1 * 2.06 = 2.27 DPS ( = (1 + ((0.15 + 0.0303 + 0.32) * (2.0 + 0.1212))))
So yeah, 1.95x vs. 2.27x DPS...still favors Surgical3 over CRF3.
Which kind of goes to what Bort said:
And trying to compare Surgical to FAW is the same as trying to compare CRF/BO/etc to FAW or CSV...it's just not going to work in this game. Folks have argued the FAW thing forever (even with CSV being thrown into the mix)...and they've been told it's not going to work the way they think it should. It's never going be 50% damage to two targets or 50%/33% to two/three targets. Multiple target abilities are going to outperform single target abilities for DPS.
As for why if Surgical3 was so powerful compared to CRF3/etc, why weren't folks using Intel boats? Not only weren't there Fleet Intel boats but there was no Intel Scimitar...imagine if there had been, eh?
While I agree with the schedule issue and the fix-nerfs, its been my experience that things mostly get buffed periodically , and very rarely do new items get any significant boosts (not counting slapping on a hangar if something is not selling) .
If you can't see the difference in intent between say ... Thissler's PVP vids and the trololol vids posted by a certain DPS crew then that's your issue .
And I also think you got the concerns mixed up , as Cryptic is likely to boost the NPC's due to the DPS videos, even if those represent the warped reality of a few, not the actual reality of the majority .
... same goes for the "reasonable amount" of 15% CrtH and 200% CrtD that "many can achieve" (but many indeed don't) ...
That you see them as trololol vids...well, I'm not sure I'm the one with the issue. I don't bunch up any undergarments at their vids.
ISA...requires ~1-2k DPS per person more than ISE did. So you're going to say that the folks that were doing 50-90k DPS caused a ~1-2k DPS increase in the requirement? Cause yeah, that's going to slow them down! The guys that are now doing 75-120k DPS got slowed down by that!
Yeah...no.
Average folks. They're the Evil Ones. They're the folks that Cryptic notices. That majority...is who Cryptic caters to and adjusts things for...
Average folks doing things too quickly, there are going to be some changes. Average folks doing too much damage, there are going to be some changes. Average folks...they're ruining the fun for all those massively below average folks. Well, no...not all of them - cause it's only an extreme minority that's ever whining about things.
This post deserves to be quoted for truth
Heh, some of the best forum PvP has been between the PvPers looking to shoot fish in a barrel and the PvPers looking for somebody to put a team together for some heinous action.
I wouldn't call them "the evil ones" but besides that you're as usually spot on from my point of view.
The whole blame game could be diminished if broken items/ability's which are already spotted by players on tribble and red shirt wouldn't find there way to holodeck. If one would brake the cycle and try to realease things slightly later but with less bugs. Of course there will be always bugs and unindented consequences, when things hit holodeck and thousands of players get to play the stuff which was only tested by few on a different server with a different version.
Frankly one can't reasonably expect perfections from human beings and the majority knows that.
When you come up with another definition that describes turning Cryptic's "end game" into a public laughing stock , you'll let me know yeah?
No offense , but I don't believe this .
Not if we take the average DPS in the game pre-DR as something between 4-12K , which is my guesstimate .
(and yes, I may be wrong on those numbers)
That's some mighty fine generalization right there .
But it does not work on someone who's seen the PVP community acting (for better and for worst) as Cryptic's unofficial QA team FOR YEARS ... , only to be awarded with ... -- well I don't need to spell it out, just look at all the care PVP has gotten over the years .
... wanna hear something really crazy: despite being isolated communities ... , Cryptic and PVE in general have benefitted more from the QA that the PVP crowd did for Cryptic then the QA that the DPS crowd are doing for them now ... -- because the balance needed for PVP is closer to an overall actual balance in PVE then the 5K-75K DPS "balance" is ... , and this will be true as long as in because in the back of one persons mind will be "this is not = balance" , while in the other person's mind will be going "hmmm ... , now with this ability I can haz moar numbers, cool! " ...
Does that mean we don't require balance in PvE? Of course not. Balance is still essential and OP abilities still require some finesse. However, 'too much' balancing will ruin one of the aspects of the game. Every class (Tac, Eng, Sci) NEEDS 1-2 special class-specific abilities that shine in order to attract players to those classes. If DPS is the only rule to play, we will continue to see a Surge of Tac officers and a tapering of the others.
PvP in STO is dead. Let it go. Let's focus on the game we have and make it as enjoyable as possible rather than trying to resurrect a VERY dead horse.
Officially Nerfed In Early 2410
Average folks kind of did that...and that's why Cryptic made the change in the first place. It was a heinous change, and so they changed it again.
Sticking with the ISE thing...
Elite Content
Optional to pop the Trans before the Nanites get there
Optional to finish after the initial engagement in under 15 minutes
So if the "base" content is Elite, then getting an Optional would be "more" Elite. Getting both Optionals would be "even more" Elite. One didn't need to be "even more" Elite to smoke the content.
Oh noes, average folks were doing it in 5-10 minutes instead of the 1-2 minutes that the DPS folks were doing it! Wait, the Optional was 15 minutes after the initial engagement completes? Hrmm...so yeah.
How about ISA where that Nanite Objective is Mandatory instead of Optional? The vast majority of times, almost exclusively, where I've had that fail is where folks pop the first Gen, the last Gen doesn't get popped for 15-20s or more, and folks have spent most of the time shooting at the Spheres (Trans spawn, not Gate Nanites). There was more than enough DPS for it not to have failed, but folks were...yeah.
How about a TLDR list of ISA runs? All of them public queue random pug runs.
12/30/14: 17k, 14k, 12k, 7k, 7k; 8:19 minutes
01/01/15: 22k, 18k, 16k, 8k, 2k; 6:55 minutes
01/02/15: 19k, 7k, 6k, 4k, 4k; 11:12 minutes
01/07/15: 19k, 9k, 6k, 4k, 4k; 10:55 minutes
01/10/15: 19k, 18k, 16k, 11k, 3k; 6:50 minutes
01/10/15: 20k, 14k, 4k, 4k, 1k; 10:09 minutes
01/11/15: 20k, 12k, 10k, 5k, 4k; 9:10 minutes
01/11/15: 21k, 20k, 18k, 10k, 8k; 5:46 minutes
01/19/15: 18k, 6k, 5k, 4k, 3k; 12:53 minutes
01/20/15: 25k, 22k, 8k, 3k, 3k; 7:52 minutes
01/21/15: 33k, 21k, 16k, 6k, 7k; 5:54 minutes
01/22/15: 20k, 6k, 6k, 5k, 2k; 12:30 minutes
01/22/15: 23k, 15k, 5k, 3k, 2k; 9:27 minutes
01/22/15: 14k, 10k, 10k, 2k, 1k; 12:40 minutes
01/24/15: 26k, 23k, 11k, 7k, 5k; 6:47 minutes
01/24/15: 19k, 12k, 11k, 7k, 6k; 8:55 minutes
01/24/15: 33k, 21k, 5k, 5k, 4k; 6:40 minutes
01/25/15: 14k, 9k, 8k, 7k, 2k; 11:15 minutes
01/25/15: 14k, 9k, 5k, 4k, 3k; 12:50 minutes
01/26/15: 33k, 16k, 13k, 7k, 3k; 6:26 minutes
01/26/15: 18k, 8k, 5k, 5k, 4k; 11:13 minutes
01/26/15: 24k, 19k, 9k, 7k, 7k; 6:20 minutes
01/27/15: 21k, 15k, 12k, 4k, 1k; 7:56 minutes
01/27/15: 21k, 7k, 5k, 4k, 5k; 11:34 minutes
01/27/15: 25k, 20k, 18k, 7k, 6k; 5:38 minutes
01/27/15: 33k, 18k, 5k, 4k, 1k; 7:37 minutes
01/27/15: 17k, 12k, 11k, 8k, 9k; 9:05 minutes
01/27/15: 16k, 15k, 10k, 4k, 1k; 10:14 minutes
01/28/15: 48k, 17k, 12k, 9k, 6k; 4:57 minutes
01/28/15: 32k, 18k, 16k, 3k, 2k; 6:21 minutes
01/31/15: 26k, 13k, 7k, 5k, 2k; 11:22 minutes
01/31/15: 37k, 29k, 10k, 9k, 3k; 7:02 minutes
02/02/15: 24k, 16k, 10k, 8k, 7k; 9:00 minutes
02/02/15: 44k, 17k, 6k, 3k, 2k; 8:35 minutes
02/02/15: 25k, 13k, 11k, 10k, 6k; 9:04 minutes
02/02/15: 47k, 14k, 13k, 10k, 7k; 6:43 minutes
02/03/15: 12k, 11k, 5k, 4k, 2k; 18:34 minutes
02/05/15: 36k, 14k, 8k, 2k, 1k; 9:10 minutes
02/05/15: 23k, 19k, 14k, 10k, 4k; 8:41 minutes
02/06/15: 16k, 13k, 13k, 9k, 6k; 11:21 minutes
02/07/15: 16k; 11k, 4k, 4k, 3k; 15:51 minutes
02/08/15: 14k, 7k, 7k, 4k, 4k; 17:29 minutes
02/08/15: 18k, 13k, 10k, 7k, 2k; 11:30 minutes
02/08/15: 18k, 11k, 10k, 8k, 2k; 12:08 minutes
02/09/15: 19k, 13k, 12k, 5k, 2k; 11:34 minutes
02/09/15: 72k, 19k, 17k, 8k, 3k; 4:45 minutes
02/09/15: 20k, 17k, 17k, 11k, 8k; 8:21 minutes
02/10/15: 22k, 17k, 14k, 12k, 7k; 9:08 minutes
02/11/15: 15k, 11k, 7k, 5k, 1k; 15:02 minutes
02/11/15: 17k, 10k, 8k, 8k, 2k; 14:35 minutes
02/15/15: 20k, 15k, 13k, 7k, 4k; 10:50 minutes
02/15/15: 18k, 10k, 9k, 6k, 4k; 12:06 minutes
02/16/15: 25k, 14k, 13k, 5k, 2k; 10:26 minutes
02/18/15: 79k, 16k, 12k, 10k, 3k; 4:59 minutes
02/20/15: 18k, 14k, 12k, 3k, 2k; 11:20 minutes
02/21/15: 14k, 12k, 10k, 11k, 5k; 11:37 minutes
02/23/15: 12k, 11k, 8k, 7k, 2k; 14:39 minutes
02/23/15: 30k, 19k, 18k, 10k, 7k; 7:27 minutes
02/23/15: 14k, 10k, 9k, 4k, 2k; 16:04 minutes
02/24/15: 38k, 20k, 16k, 14k, 1k; 6:40 minutes
02/25/15: 15k, 12k, 7k, 6k, 4k; 13:19 minutes
02/25/15: 28k, 9k, 5k, 3k, 3k; 13:19 minutes
02/27/15: 13k, 11k, 10k, 7k, <1k; 14:22 minutes
03/05/15: 15k, 13k, 10k, 10k, 4k; 11:30 minutes
03/05/15: 15k, 11k, 10k, 9k, 7k; 12:21 minutes
03/05/15: 11k, 10k, 10k, 4k, 1k; 16:35 minutes
03/05/15: 14k, 12k, 8k, 6k, 2k; 14:08 minutes
03/05/15: 31k, 22k, 17k, 3k, 2k; 7:50 minutes
03/13/15: 12k, 12k, 9k, 8k, 2k; 13:35 minutes
03/16/15: 38k, 15k, 12k, 4k, 2k; 8:18 minutes
03/16/15: 25k, 22k, 16k, 14k, 1k; 7:25 minutes
03/16/15: 37k, 19k, 11k, 8k, 6k; 7:14 minutes
03/20/15: 27k, 25k, 12k, 12k, 8k; 7:24 minutes
03/21/15: 11k, 11k, 6k, 4k, 4k; 16:06 minutes
03/21/15: 22k, 17k, 14k, 14k, 4k; 8:21 minutes
03/22/15: 34k, 20k, 17k, 11k, 4k; 6:53 minutes
03/22/15: 18k, 16k, 10k, 12k, 9k; 9:20 minutes
03/22/15: 31k, 20k, 7k, 3k, 2k; 9:17 minutes
03/22/15: 21k, 18k, 10k, 9k, 5k; 9:37 minutes
03/22/15: 18k, 14k, 11k, 10k, 5k; 9:59 minutes
03/26/15: 20k, 11k, 5k, 5k, 5k; 13:44 minutes
04/08/15: 22k, 21k, 11k, 7k, 3k; 9:21 minutes
04/10/15: 30k, 22k, 14k, 7k, 4k; 8:02 minutes
04/10/15: 47k, 15k, 13k, 9k, 9k; 6:17 minutes
04/11/15: 15k, 12k, 7k, 5k, 5k; 13:28 minutes
04/12/15: 18k, 14k, 10k, 9k, 9k; 9:59 minutes
Here, I'll go back and highlight those that took over 15 minutes (even though the 15 minute counter doesn't begin until after the first engagement completes)...that's not many, how about those that took over even 10 minutes, I'll highlight those too...and yeah, not much color going on there.
Maybe Cryptic should drop the Optional down from 15 minutes after the first engagement to 10 minutes from the start of that engagement, eh?
Cause yeah, one might want to point to those DPS guys and their videos...but uh, yeah, they're not the only ones making a mockery of the content.
I've got no idea why you posted that in reply to what I had said there, which was the following:
"Average folks. They're the Evil Ones. They're the folks that Cryptic notices. That majority...is who Cryptic caters to and adjusts things for...
Average folks doing things too quickly, there are going to be some changes. Average folks doing too much damage, there are going to be some changes."
Has what to do with your quote/reply there?
Which has what to do with folks blaming the those 75k+ DPS folks for any changes in the game? It's as bad as folks blaming PvPers for changes in the game.
Folks just want to scapegoat.
Running endless ISAs to perfect your PvE build and pick up an additional 0.5k DPS.
Farming for Marks.
Playing through the same content you already did, but under the guise of "omg look, new recruit!" to make you feel better about it.
Chat.
And then there's, PvP. Actually challenging content that's never the same.
End game content in this game revolves around the tailor.
The "end game" PvE in this game is essentially the difficulty of content you use to level in other games. This means that either queues are meant to be the way you level (unsure of how rewards are now, but I would assume its still 4000 ISA's to capped spec tree) or are actual end game content.
Let's look at mechanics.
-No healer needed for "end game" stfs
-No tank needed for "end game" stfs
-Bring dps, engage faw, mash space bar to success
-All pass/fail options revolve around killing enemies (with a few rare exceptions, ie: no actual strat besides "We come in peace, shoot to kill."
-Absolutely no positional awareness needed besides "Is my faw inflating my mad deeps by hitting every target possible on my screen regardless of if they cannot currently be damaged"
Let's look at enemies.
-All space enemies have the same laughable level of resists
-All space enemies run power 50/50/50/50
-All space enemies have 2-5 boff powers total
-Barely any space enemies have captain powers (apa,snb,loleng)
-No space enemies have any form of "tactic" to their ai besides shoot at target with highest threat
-No space enemies attempt to gain position on you, ever (ok mogais try to run away from you with attack pattern alpha, ill let that slide)
This "end game" content could be likened to other mmo's version of content rushing for leveling. Example from swtor. No one likes doing planets anymore, so they put a flashpoint in that bolsters you and your group to 55 regardless of what level you enter at, and you face roll you way to victory, racking up a **** ton of exp in the process. "End game" STO = "Power leveling content" in other mmos.
PvP offered an end game, enemies that fought back, with tactics and skills, different builds, different levels of skill, etc. PvP gets blamed for nerfs, yes, because we're the one who can visibly see what's wrong with powers that have no actual use or very niche uses in PvE. If Borg were allowed to fill out bug reports, all you would see is "Schim are op, Faw is op, Recluse pets are op". When those get nerfed, will the community become as toxic towards the DPS guys, who put a hell of a lot of work into their builds, regardless of what they're going to be used for?
PvP got a few things nerfed over the years. So did completing STF's way faster than you should be able to (hello tricos) or no win scenario (hello into darkness), yet PvP gets the lashes for all nerfs. So regardless of myself and my fleet (sp) running Panda Cubs for years, helping with bootcamp, going out of our way to help multiple people over the years after we 15-0'd them because were "pug stomping" in the only pvp queue in the game meant for 5 people, so we're obviously horrible people.
Pvp can never get better and PvPers will never escape this black sheep treatment. Vicious cycle when all we want is the fun pew pew, albeit imbalanced, we had for years. All we keep getting is a Power Shopping spree every 2-3 months that completely replaces everything with nothing but the new stuff. Not cuz its amazing. Because its so grossly over-tuned that anyone who can point their ship at a target is capable of getting kills on any player, regardless of skill level. Ionic Turbulence + Surgical Strikes 3 shoulda taught everyone that. They're too busy shooting defenseless geometrical shapes to notice how op things are. At least we had 3-6 good seasons of pvp, depending on where you consider the "good" part to be.
See, I'd tend to agree with paxdawn that if folks wanted more than ISA they could hit up HSE. How often do we see folks talking about HSE, eh?
I mean, these are the Elite PvE queues that exist (Space, yeah, I'm biased)...
The Vault: Ensnared (Elite): 2 queued, wait time --
Viscous Cycle (Elite): 1 queued, wait time 4:23
Storming the Spire (Elite): 0 queued, wait time --
The Breach (Elite): 0 queued, wait time --
The Battle of Korfez (Elite): 1 queued, wait time 3:04
Borg Disconnected (Elite): 3 queued, wait time --
Hive Onslaught (Elite): 1 queued, wait time --
There's no...
Crystalline Catastrophe (Elite); Advanced's got 1 queued, 38 playing, 0:53 wait
Undine Assault (Elite); Advanced's got 4 queued, 0 playing, -- wait
Azure Nebula Rescue (Elite); Advanced's got 0 queued, 5 playing, 2:09 wait
Khitomer Vortex (Elite); Advanced's got 4 queued, 10 playing, 1:12 wait
Infected: The Conduit (Elite); Advanced's got 3 queued, 10 playing, 1:01 wait
The Cure Found (Elite); Advanced's got 2 queued, 0 playing, 1:32 wait
Viscous, Storming, Breach, and Hive are just as dead at Advanced. Disconnected has 1 queued, 0 playing, and a 1:30 wait.
They're adding more queues (remember when Geko said there were too many queues) with S10...and they're actually adding Normal, Advanced, and Elite for them.
But in the end, dismissing what those DPS folks are doing as not being a challenge might be the case if everybody and the neighbor's dog was doing it. Cryptic didn't present them with a challenge - they've created a challenge for themselves. It's not my kind of fun, not my kind of challenge, but I can't do what they do and it'd be a challenge for me to do even a quarter of what they do...but it's not my kind of fun and it's hard not to picture it as the "hogger raid" sort of thing as mentioned in another thread. But I'm upfront about it with my mixed message of "kudos - lol, stealing candy from a baby faster and faster - but nope, I suck and can't do it"...trippy, eh?
This game isn't about challenges, though - kind of why there's so much hatred for the PvP and DPS folks, no? Cause they're into challenging stuff, even if they're different kinds of challenges...though, honestly, what PvPers aren't doing the same thing in trying to get their builds better and better to frag another guy?
This game...meh...any time Cryptic's tried to make something the least bit challenging, the forums have flooded. Can tell that not many folks have been testing stuff on Tribble, cause the forums would have washed away already. Can't wait to see what happens as folks take their 1-3k DPS boats into the Elites for some of those new queues...but well, the laughter will be brief and bitter. Cause it will probably all be nerfed into the ground like everything else.