I want to take a moment to say, I felt bad for the D'Deridex. As big and bad as it was and how it was the Romulan's premiere ship, they got murdered during the conflict with the Dominion. The Battle of the Omarion Nebula was bad, but whenever they were on screen they were getting incinerated, eviscerated, and mutilated. It's no surprise that they weren't actually seen in Nemesis being superceded by the Norexan/Valdore/Mogai and the Scimitar.
like with the galaxy, i've tried to figure this ship out, to justify its perceived weakness. it's firepower has proven to be gigantic, one d'deridex took out DS9 and then the worm hole in a decloak alpha in one of those o'brian suffers episodes, featuring timetravel. a few months later, it held off a klingon fleet.
problem is, whenever you see one take fire, it just gets slagged, so whats going on? it seems like the d'deridex is basically like a bop is in game. low on durability, designed to spike, and exit combat asap. they were built this way on purpose, massively sized so it could perform any non combat task the romulans might need, and in combat, thanks to the cloak, any battle would be decided in the course of a few seconds. this is why they always send multiple warbirds if they were going to attack the enterprise, though a d'deridex had superior firepower, its durability was a liability, the longer a fight would last the more likely the d'deridex would lose. they were also super hesitant to start a battle when they were already decloaked because of this too, they were totally without their critical advantage going in.
the dominion war required a style of combat that the d'deridex was not applicable for, and loses were heavy. they asked this tin can ambusher to serve as line battleships, holding strategic positions and keeping battle lines intact. the dominion allied fleet was like 3/4 small attack corvettes, the d'deridex was a capital ship assassin, it couldn't handle a large number of low value targets
thats why things like the mogai was likely designed, a mobile mid sized ship with medium guns that could engage small targets. the scimitar was good for this especially. it had a ton of medium weapon hardpoints, but they were distributed to cover every arc, it would be perfect for taking on a whole fleet of small ships. of course cryptic totally blew this, and gave the d'deridex like the highest base hull there is. they love making ships the opposite of how they should be.
If you consider that between 2285 and 2370 that the ship numbers went from 2000 to the 70,000s and Starfleet ships can stay in service from 50 to 100 years it makes sense. Add in that the Federation is 8000 light years across and at the time of the Next Generation that could be a ten year trip for most ships....in volume that's a LOT of space. 9000 is what? a ship per light year on one axis with a thousand floaters? And then you're exploring out beyond that in six directions.
The Federation fielding smaller individual fleets during the Dominion War can be explained by the fact that they have to prosecute the war AND defend that border that's thousands of light years in circumference. The fleet that fought the Dominion war had to be pulled from across two Quadrants. Both the events of First Contact and Insurrection occurred during the Klingon Federation War and the immediately following Dominion War. So other things didn't stop during the Dominion War. It goes back to how there was a general peace, while there was a war with the Cardassians and other powers through the 2340s and 2350s. The Federation is that big.
the excelsior wasn't the 2000th ship, it was likely the first of the 20th class though. i think registry numbers had a lot more to do with the actual class back then. and if starfleet was 30k strong in 2375, it was probably at least 10k strong by 2285.
and ya, the last time there was probably potential galactic peace, was between 2293 to 2340. the era of mass exclcior production. klingons got kicked in the **** by praxis, the romulans had a tomad incident and didn't mess with the federation for 50+ years, and the cardi's had yet to be discovered by then.
the ambassador was 20 years old, the cardasians and tzenkethi were probably first contacted and were immediately hostile, the fleet was made up of 3/4 excelsior by that point, with phasers tech that had been obsoleted for more then 20 years.
the federation didn't really have a fleet ready to deal with worthy opponents that wanted to make war, thats probably why a cardasian hot war lasted on and off until the late 2360s, the tzenkethi had multiple wars with the federation, and the tolians and others made so much trouble. all this time of hostility btw, the galaxy class was being designed. and some oddball ships like the freedom, cheyenne, challenger, springfield, new orleans, and niagra, that seemed like byproducts of galaxy development, trying to create ships with decent sized arrays to fill out the fleet and hold the line. by the 2360s the federation was really back on its feet militarily, with genuinely impressive ships launched or nearing completion. intrepid, akira, saber, steamrunner, galaxy, nebula, soverign and defiant. all just in time for the dominion war.
like with the galaxy, i've tried to figure this ship out, to justify its perceived weakness. it's firepower has proven to be gigantic, one d'deridex took out DS9 and then the worm hole in a decloak alpha in one of those o'brian suffers episodes, featuring timetravel. a few months later, it held off a klingon fleet.
problem is, whenever you see one take fire, it just gets slagged, so whats going on? it seems like the d'deridex is basically like a bop is in game. low on durability, designed to spike, and exit combat asap. they were built this way on purpose, massively sized so it could perform any non combat task the romulans might need, and in combat, thanks to the cloak, any battle would be decided in the course of a few seconds. this is why they always send multiple warbirds if they were going to attack the enterprise, though a d'deridex had superior firepower, its durability was a liability, the longer a fight would last the more likely the d'deridex would lose. they were also super hesitant to start a battle when they were already decloaked because of this too, they were totally without their critical advantage going in.
the dominion war required a style of combat that the d'deridex was not applicable for, and loses were heavy. they asked this tin can ambusher to serve as line battleships, holding strategic positions and keeping battle lines intact. the dominion allied fleet was like 3/4 small attack corvettes, the d'deridex was a capital ship assassin, it couldn't handle a large number of low value targets
thats why things like the mogai was likely designed, a mobile mid sized ship with medium guns that could engage small targets. the scimitar was good for this especially. it had a ton of medium weapon hardpoints, but they were distributed to cover every arc, it would be perfect for taking on a whole fleet of small ships. of course cryptic totally blew this, and gave the d'deridex like the highest base hull there is. they love making ships the opposite of how they should be.
And talking about Hull, most of the D'D's volume was hollow. That massive space between her nacelles.
You're also right about the carrier capacity. The bottom of the D'Deridex seem to have bays where you could just walk ground troops out. If the ship was intended to land, then the hollow space makes sense as a way to keep the ship strong and light for atmospheric operations, which also works with the giant wing design.
That said, I'm dreaming that someday they'll put the vertical D'Deridex design in this game.
the excelsior wasn't the 2000th ship, it was likely the first of the 20th class though. i think registry numbers had a lot more to do with the actual class back then. and if starfleet was 30k strong in 2375, it was probably at least 10k strong by 2285.
I'm not particularly fond of that way of thinking, but I also recall that was a thing. The Enterprise was the second ship of the seventeenth class, with the USS Constitution being NCC-1700. The Excelsior being the lead ship of her class and having that 2000 certainly lends credence.
Though that clearly stopped being the case by the Next Generation.
10,000 strong in 2285? I completely buy it. I'd say 50 tops during the Earth-Romulan War, then the steady increase in production with the Daedalus class for the rest of the 22nc century.
and ya, the last time there was probably potential galactic peace, was between 2293 to 2340. the era of mass exclcior production. klingons got kicked in the **** by praxis, the romulans had a tomad incident and didn't mess with the federation for 50+ years, and the cardi's had yet to be discovered by then.
the ambassador was 20 years old, the cardasians and tzenkethi were probably first contacted and were immediately hostile, the fleet was made up of 3/4 excelsior by that point, with phasers tech that had been obsoleted for more then 20 years.
As I understand it first Contact with the Cardassians was in the Early 24th century. I know a novel based around the Enterprise-B dealt with how much some Starfleet officers were opposed to sitting on the sidelines while the Cardassians occupied Bajor. That was around 2319.
the federation didn't really have a fleet ready to deal with worthy opponents that wanted to make war, thats probably why a cardasian hot war lasted on and off until the late 2360s, the tzenkethi had multiple wars with the federation, and the tolians and others made so much trouble. all this time of hostility btw, the galaxy class was being designed. and some oddball ships like the freedom, cheyenne, challenger, springfield, new orleans, and niagra, that seemed like byproducts of galaxy development, trying to create ships with decent sized arrays to fill out the fleet and hold the line. by the 2360s the federation was really back on its feet militarily, with genuinely impressive ships launched or nearing completion. intrepid, akira, saber, steamrunner, galaxy, nebula, soverign and defiant. all just in time for the dominion war.
The Freedom, Cheyenne, Challenger, Springfield, New Orleans, and Niagra were definitely in my mind, byproducts of the Galaxy class development project.
Smaller testbed classes to test out components and get new technologies the Galaxy was going to bring together in one ship out to the field more quickly.
I've always thought of the Akira, Saber, Steamrunner, and Defiant...the First Contact ships as all being a response to the Borg and the Battle of Wolf 359. The Cardassians, Tzenkethi, So'na, these guys were beatable, that's what the Galaxy had in mind for known threats.
But the Borg outperformed the Galaxy. So they needed something more. Especially since they had assimilated Picard, they needed something new.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
Theres a simple answer to why the D'deridex performed so badly in the Dominion war and its due to being the only Romulan warship we ever saw in the allied fleet battles, so its bound to look bad when the allies are taking losses, Starfleet fielded multiple ship designs and the Klingons had several different ships
On that note with how poorly the Big D performed in the Dominion War i would like to suggest she is nerfed to compare console wise with the Galaxy but have the lt tact and ens eng switched around so the Big D becomes the worst cruiser in game. All because of 4 episodes of DS9.
Hey people throw the same 3-4 episodes/movie argument at us to hold the Galaxy back its only fair.
Oh and by the time of STO she is over 50 years old, she couldn't destroy a Jem'hadar bugship or penetrate its shields either. The D'Deridex was a epic failure blah blah blah
But none of the above matters as the D\Deridex is not a GALAXY CLASS. is that rug lifting and sweeping i hear
You know, giving the D'deridex a t6 overhaul, and making it glass cannon hit and fade ship that is explicitly specialized in that task from the ground up would be cool.
You could have your current run of t5u scimis and d'deridex do the tanked dps, and have the t6 d'deridex be an assassin.
You know, giving the D'deridex a t6 overhaul, and making it glass cannon hit and fade ship that is explicitly specialized in that task from the ground up would be cool.
You could have your current run of t5u scimis and d'deridex do the tanked dps, and have the t6 d'deridex be an assassin.
The D'Deridex was originally meant to have the Galaxy/Negh'Var layout. It was their last attempt to keep the trinity intact, giving every "faction" the exact same trinity ships to play with. But people complained and they changed the D'D's layout but kept the Galaxy stats on it.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Theres a simple answer to why the D'deridex performed so badly in the Dominion war and its due to being the only Romulan warship we ever saw in the allied fleet battles, so its bound to look bad when the allies are taking losses, Starfleet fielded multiple ship designs and the Klingons had several different ships
That's certainly a fair point, but I'm just as concerned by the fact that we never got to see the D'Deridex taking hits like we did with the Galaxy.
On that note with how poorly the Big D performed in the Dominion War i would like to suggest she is nerfed to compare console wise with the Galaxy but have the lt tact and ens eng switched around so the Big D becomes the worst cruiser in game. All because of 4 episodes of DS9.
Hey people throw the same 3-4 episodes/movie argument at us to hold the Galaxy back its only fair.
Oh and by the time of STO she is over 50 years old, she couldn't destroy a Jem'hadar bugship or penetrate its shields either. The D'Deridex was a epic failure blah blah blah
But none of the above matters as the D\Deridex is not a GALAXY CLASS. is that rug lifting and sweeping i hear
Spare us the rage. And slow your roll while you're at it.
I've reviewed what I could of the battles on Youtube and on Memory Alpha.
Your argument would be more effective if you had done the same. As it turns out those 3-4 episodes of DS9, show a better showing of the D'Deridex than I initially though. In the Battle of Cardassia only one was shown destroyed on screen out of seven with five more shown surviving.
It's entirely possible that the D'Deridex is a lot tougher than I initially thought. She just wasn't showcased.
And no she's not the Galaxy, but it is clear that the Romulan players were able to get an improvement on what would've been the same BOFF layout. I was honestly making an observation, even if it was worn by time.
You know, giving the D'deridex a t6 overhaul, and making it glass cannon hit and fade ship that is explicitly specialized in that task from the ground up would be cool.
You could have your current run of t5u scimis and d'deridex do the tanked dps, and have the t6 d'deridex be an assassin.
Would you leave the turn rate intact? I don't expect her to turn like a Defiant but that out of cloak base turn rate is pretty hard for a hit and fade style. Still the hit and fade is pure Romulan style.
If you look back at TOS the Romulan's primary defensive tactic was cloaking.
The D'Deridex was originally meant to have the Galaxy/Negh'Var layout. It was their last attempt to keep the trinity intact, giving every "faction" the exact same trinity ships to play with. But people complained and they changed the D'D's layout but kept the Galaxy stats on it.
There was a lot of that going into Legacy's release.
People complained that the tier 5 version of the Valdore was going to have a LtCdr Sci boff slot, so it got a tac slot instead...I was rather agitated because there was a contingent of us that wanted that Sci slot. The mirror version is my secondary Rom ship right now, works very nicely.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
I really don't think that the poor performance of the D'dex in the Dominion war had much to do with its actual survivability compared to the Galaxy class. I think it was a case of: biggest ship = priority target = concentrate firepower. The Alpha quadrant tactics appeared to be to shoot down the small to medium ships first because a swarm of small fast attack ships is always going to be more dangerous than a wing of very large battleships and cruisers that are few in number. The Dominion strategy appeared to be "take out the big ships first" in order to demoralize the enemy. Hence the Romulan fleet collapsing during the battle of Cardassia. This lesson was already well known in WWII with the sinking of the battlecruiser Hood and the Bismarck later. Big capital ships may have impressive firepower and defenses and look intimidating as all hell, but when they go down, they take the fighting spirit with them. The reason that we never saw many Galaxies go down might have been that they weren't considered the biggest of capital ships by the Dominion. The Galaxy is actually a bit smaller than a Jem-Hadar battlecruiser, so it may not have been considered as threatening as the enormous D'dexes.
I was being sarcastic regarding the D'Deridex, not raging. You could also say those that keep using the Galaxy arguments may need to watch a bit more TNG and DS9 but hey.
I really don't think that the poor performance of the D'dex in the Dominion war had much to do with its actual survivability compared to the Galaxy class. I think it was a case of: biggest ship = priority target = concentrate firepower. The Alpha quadrant tactics appeared to be to shoot down the small to medium ships first because a swarm of small fast attack ships is always going to be more dangerous than a wing of very large battleships and cruisers that are few in number. The Dominion strategy appeared to be "take out the big ships first" in order to demoralize the enemy. Hence the Romulan fleet collapsing during the battle of Cardassia. This lesson was already well known in WWII with the sinking of the battlecruiser Hood and the Bismarck later. Big capital ships may have impressive firepower and defenses and look intimidating as all hell, but when they go down, they take the fighting spirit with them. The reason that we never saw many Galaxies go down might have been that they weren't considered the biggest of capital ships by the Dominion. The Galaxy is actually a bit smaller than a Jem-Hadar battlecruiser, so it may not have been considered as threatening as the enormous D'dexes.
Knocking out the smaller ships may have been very wise strategy considering what happened to the Odyssey. (I wonder if that was a thing, "Remember the Odyssey!")
It would be interesting if such a tactical analysis applied in game. Dominion mobs target larger ships in group combat, Federation mobs target smaller ships, and so on.
I was being sarcastic regarding the D'Deridex, not raging. You could also say those that keep using the Galaxy arguments may need to watch a bit more TNG and DS9 but hey.
Don't get me wrong, I like the D'D. It was the main reason I made a Romulan, but I'm just wondering what this discussion is doing in a Galaxy thread.
It was an off handed remark to be honest, that sparked a minor discussion.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
I'm probably getting all our hopes up over nothing - but on live - the Galaxy set bonus is a 3 piece now - and is broken. On Tribble, the Saucer Sep console now states 'Any Exploration cruiser or Starfleet Dreadnought Cruiser' instead of the whole list of ships now.
I really don't think that the poor performance of the D'dex in the Dominion war had much to do with its actual survivability compared to the Galaxy class. I think it was a case of: biggest ship = priority target = concentrate firepower. The Alpha quadrant tactics appeared to be to shoot down the small to medium ships first because a swarm of small fast attack ships is always going to be more dangerous than a wing of very large battleships and cruisers that are few in number. The Dominion strategy appeared to be "take out the big ships first" in order to demoralize the enemy. Hence the Romulan fleet collapsing during the battle of Cardassia. This lesson was already well known in WWII with the sinking of the battlecruiser Hood and the Bismarck later. Big capital ships may have impressive firepower and defenses and look intimidating as all hell, but when they go down, they take the fighting spirit with them. The reason that we never saw many Galaxies go down might have been that they weren't considered the biggest of capital ships by the Dominion. The Galaxy is actually a bit smaller than a Jem-Hadar battlecruiser, so it may not have been considered as threatening as the enormous D'dexes.
That does make sense considering what happened to the Odyssey. When the three bugships attacked, they honed in directly on the Odyssey instead of dealing with the runabouts first. And since the 'Deridex is close to twice the length and over twice the width of a Galaxy, and considering the Negh'Var didn't see loads of action in the Dominion War, it would make sense, given Dominion tactics, to take out the 'Deridexes first.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I'm probably getting all our hopes up over nothing - but on live - the Galaxy set bonus is a 3 piece now - and is broken. On Tribble, the Saucer Sep console now states 'Any Exploration cruiser or Starfleet Dreadnought Cruiser' instead of the whole list of ships now.
they wouldn't mess with the console permissions if something tier 6 galaxy related wasn't happening soon. its ether that, or saucer sep on the guardian maybe.
i just hope they do not TRIBBLE us again and do a T6 X instead of a T6 R
i do not care about the 3 nacelle ugly kitbash. or at least give us the option to remove the dreadnought parts
ptffff, ya, you just know they are gonna have the nerve to think a standard galaxy is a dead end and over, and make that abomination the new standard issue galaxy, the only one that makes it to tier 6.
at best it was a 1 off, an admirals sentimental hobby, at worst is total nonsense that q dreamed up to make the situation he had set in motion more interesting.
and canon trek tech logic points to the later.
if they really wanted to milk it, they could releasing a 2 pack, but it would also include the guardian to make it a 3 pack, and give them all complementarity station setups. the guardian already has a LTC tac and sci, so the tier 6 galaxy R would have
COM eng
LTC eng LTC sci LT tac* ENS uni
and the galaxy X
COM eng
LTC eng LTC tac LT sci* ENS uni
and the guardian console would be added to the galaxy 2 part, and they can all use each others consoles and they can all sep. huh, that all fits together a bit TOO well...
Actually, I'd be pretty okay with the Guardian being the third piece of the Galaxy family and them getting to share each other's consoles and skins.
The Guardian is probably my favorite ship console/boff layout in the game atm. If I could throw the Galaxy skin - with the Dreadnought nacelles (Just the two nacelles with the phaser strip addons - not all 3) on her, I would be on supremely happy camper.
Though as sexy as the Pathfinder is - and as nice of a job as they did with the Command Battle Cruisers - I have high hopes for the hypothetical Challenger.
That console looks to me as if they just wanted to cut down the nonsensical list of ship variants (T5, T5U, FT5U - seriously, the whole system is completely messed up). On the plus site, the T4 variants can now separate as well according to that text, now there's at least that (the T4 refit is better than the T5 variant XD).
If they actually do that though I'd like to see the T6 Explorer in a pathfinder layout. Might log in again and grind a bit dil to get that even. If they just rename the Guardian "Guardian class Exploration cruiser" and make it Galaxy compatible I'd be fine with that as well (well not actually since it's an Ambassador and not a Galaxy but honestly I stop caring about that. Cryptic prooved time and again that they neither are capable nor intereted in keeping logical evolution of designs and sensible line-ups. They just pump out new toys.) if only the Galaxy model gets a make over
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
That console looks to me as if they just wanted to cut down the nonsensical list of ship variants (T5, T5U, FT5U - seriously, the whole system is completely messed up). On the plus site, the T4 variants can now separate as well according to that text, now there's at least that (the T4 refit is better than the T5 variant XD).
even if the guardian got grouped into a 3 pack, i dout the costumes would even try to be made comparable. that stuff just wont fit together.
those tier 4 only garbage skins would have a hard time saucer ceping, unless someone actually spent billable hours on those monstrosities, to make an actual sep point, on again tier 4 only skins.
yeah the guardian would have a hard time meshing with the galaxy skins. as it's actually smaller. it't more or less the exact same size as the ambassador
even if the guardian got grouped into a 3 pack, i dout the costumes would even try to be made comparable. that stuff just wont fit together.
those tier 4 only garbage skins would have a hard time saucer ceping, unless someone actually spent billable hours on those monstrosities, to make an actual sep point, on again tier 4 only skins.
True, I hadn't even thought about the weird T4 launch skins. But if they write "any exploration cruiser variant" they need to rework that - or they flat out state a lie
@gptx: Yeah, the Guardian is pretty much in form and function (layout in-game wise, in-universe none of it makes sense) an Ambassador refit. They probably should make those skins compatible.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I'm probably getting all our hopes up over nothing - but on live - the Galaxy set bonus is a 3 piece now - and is broken. On Tribble, the Saucer Sep console now states 'Any Exploration cruiser or Starfleet Dreadnought Cruiser' instead of the whole list of ships now.
ptffff, ya, you just know they are gonna have the nerve to think a standard galaxy is a dead end and over, and make that abomination the new standard issue galaxy, the only one that makes it to tier 6.
at best it was a 1 off, an admirals sentimental hobby, at worst is total nonsense that q dreamed up to make the situation he had set in motion more interesting.
and canon trek tech logic points to the later.
Bugger off the both of you, I love the Galaxy-X, and consider it a throwback to the old Federation class even if Gene tried to evict Franz from canon.
That said, I'd never use a Galaxy neck on mine. The Venture completes it.
if they really wanted to milk it, they could releasing a 2 pack, but it would also include the guardian to make it a 3 pack, and give them all complementarity station setups. the guardian already has a LTC tac and sci, so the tier 6 galaxy R would have
COM eng
LTC eng LTC sci LT tac* ENS uni
and the galaxy X
COM eng
LTC eng LTC tac LT sci* ENS uni
I like your thinking here. Devs this is a copy paste this ^ situation.
and the guardian console would be added to the galaxy 2 part, and they can all use each others consoles and they can all sep. huh, that all fits together a bit TOO well...
I don't see the Guardian in the Galaxy family. It's plainly Probert's Ambassador to me.
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
yeah the guardian would have a hard time meshing with the galaxy skins. as it's actually smaller. it't more or less the exact same size as the ambassador
Actually no it isn't. I sat my Guardian next to a Galaxy today to compare out of curiosity. The engineering hull of the Guardian is bigger and deeper than the Galaxy. The nacelles are longer with about the same thickness. The neck is about the same size and it's just the saucer that's smaller.
I thought the tier 4 launch skins could already be used with the tier 5 versions, therefore making them already Saucer Separable.
Not all of them. The celestial and envoy versions are limited to the T4 version of the ship and are overall of rather low quality and probably aren't working with saucer separation.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I don't see the Guardian in the Galaxy family. It's plainly Probert's Ambassador to me.
it wouldn't be, the costume peaces could never mesh back and forth anyway. the 3 pack part would just be a way to make them all tier 6, to add a 3rd console to the galaxy console set, and to allow the guardian to saucer sep
Actually no it isn't. I sat my Guardian next to a Galaxy today to compare out of curiosity. The engineering hull of the Guardian is bigger and deeper than the Galaxy. The nacelles are longer with about the same thickness. The neck is about the same size and it's just the saucer that's smaller.
interesting could you throw up a pic just out of my own curiosity. i guess when i tested it i was too far a way form the galaxy
Bugger off the both of you, I love the Galaxy-X, and consider it a throwback to the old Federation class even if Gene tried to evict Franz from canon.
That said, I'd never use a Galaxy neck on mine. The Venture completes it.
i was mostly joking the main thing is i just hope the give the R love instead of dong what they did on the "revamp" and just put every thing into the X.
also the venture-x is one of the best looking ships i think just give it the galaxy saucer
Not all of them. The celestial and envoy versions are limited to the T4 version of the ship and are overall of rather low quality and probably aren't working with saucer separation.
REALLY??? :eek:
It says something, that I've never once even thought of using the Celestial or Envoy. If we're talking about ugly here.
On the other hand, I'm quite fond of the Monarch, and I think everyone has love for the Venture, a worthy design to bear the name of one of the Dominion war's most illustrious ships.
it wouldn't be, the costume peaces could never mesh back and forth anyway. the 3 pack part would just be a way to make them all tier 6, to add a 3rd console to the galaxy console set, and to allow the guardian to saucer sep
interesting could you throw up a pic just out of my own curiosity. i guess when i tested it i was too far a way form the galaxy
You know...I never have gotten that close to a Guardian honestly.
I want to know how the guys that take the size comparison charts get their "official" lengths and the size shots.
i was mostly joking the main thing is i just hope the give the R love instead of dong what they did on the "revamp" and just put every thing into the X.
also the venture-x is one of the best looking ships i think just give it the galaxy saucer
The R definitely needs love. I think if the E-D God rest it, was in the game it would have to be a Fleet Tier 5U, if not outright a Tier 6, just out of respect. In the same vein I suppose the upgrade token should make the Odyssey a tier 6, but that's another conversation.
That's what I do, my G-X has Venture nacelles, and neck, with the Galaxy hull and saucer. I'm not really feeling the Venture's Stardrive...honestly I don't like the roundedness of the front of the neck either, but the gradual descending slope wins out. If I could get the front of the Galaxy's pointed neck it'd be perfect.
As for emotionalism...well there is that thing where for seven years of my life every Sunday at 6 PM on Fox 35, I would watch Star Trek The Next Generation over dinner with my mother. But honestly, why put a ship in game if it's not going to be logically usable....and why would you underplay one of the franchise's signature starships?
"Rise like Lions after slumber, In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew, Which in sleep had fallen on you-Ye are many they are few"
It really just sounds like, people want / would like a tact heavy version of the Galaxy . To be honest so would I . There's nothing like seeing the ole ' bird swoop in with torpedos and phasers firing . Man what a sight that would be
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like with the galaxy, i've tried to figure this ship out, to justify its perceived weakness. it's firepower has proven to be gigantic, one d'deridex took out DS9 and then the worm hole in a decloak alpha in one of those o'brian suffers episodes, featuring timetravel. a few months later, it held off a klingon fleet.
problem is, whenever you see one take fire, it just gets slagged, so whats going on? it seems like the d'deridex is basically like a bop is in game. low on durability, designed to spike, and exit combat asap. they were built this way on purpose, massively sized so it could perform any non combat task the romulans might need, and in combat, thanks to the cloak, any battle would be decided in the course of a few seconds. this is why they always send multiple warbirds if they were going to attack the enterprise, though a d'deridex had superior firepower, its durability was a liability, the longer a fight would last the more likely the d'deridex would lose. they were also super hesitant to start a battle when they were already decloaked because of this too, they were totally without their critical advantage going in.
the dominion war required a style of combat that the d'deridex was not applicable for, and loses were heavy. they asked this tin can ambusher to serve as line battleships, holding strategic positions and keeping battle lines intact. the dominion allied fleet was like 3/4 small attack corvettes, the d'deridex was a capital ship assassin, it couldn't handle a large number of low value targets
thats why things like the mogai was likely designed, a mobile mid sized ship with medium guns that could engage small targets. the scimitar was good for this especially. it had a ton of medium weapon hardpoints, but they were distributed to cover every arc, it would be perfect for taking on a whole fleet of small ships. of course cryptic totally blew this, and gave the d'deridex like the highest base hull there is. they love making ships the opposite of how they should be.
the excelsior wasn't the 2000th ship, it was likely the first of the 20th class though. i think registry numbers had a lot more to do with the actual class back then. and if starfleet was 30k strong in 2375, it was probably at least 10k strong by 2285.
and ya, the last time there was probably potential galactic peace, was between 2293 to 2340. the era of mass exclcior production. klingons got kicked in the **** by praxis, the romulans had a tomad incident and didn't mess with the federation for 50+ years, and the cardi's had yet to be discovered by then.
the ambassador was 20 years old, the cardasians and tzenkethi were probably first contacted and were immediately hostile, the fleet was made up of 3/4 excelsior by that point, with phasers tech that had been obsoleted for more then 20 years.
the federation didn't really have a fleet ready to deal with worthy opponents that wanted to make war, thats probably why a cardasian hot war lasted on and off until the late 2360s, the tzenkethi had multiple wars with the federation, and the tolians and others made so much trouble. all this time of hostility btw, the galaxy class was being designed. and some oddball ships like the freedom, cheyenne, challenger, springfield, new orleans, and niagra, that seemed like byproducts of galaxy development, trying to create ships with decent sized arrays to fill out the fleet and hold the line. by the 2360s the federation was really back on its feet militarily, with genuinely impressive ships launched or nearing completion. intrepid, akira, saber, steamrunner, galaxy, nebula, soverign and defiant. all just in time for the dominion war.
Agreed 100%
Recall the Defector,
"You won't survive our attack"
"You won't survive ours."
And talking about Hull, most of the D'D's volume was hollow. That massive space between her nacelles.
You're also right about the carrier capacity. The bottom of the D'Deridex seem to have bays where you could just walk ground troops out. If the ship was intended to land, then the hollow space makes sense as a way to keep the ship strong and light for atmospheric operations, which also works with the giant wing design.
That said, I'm dreaming that someday they'll put the vertical D'Deridex design in this game.
I'm not particularly fond of that way of thinking, but I also recall that was a thing. The Enterprise was the second ship of the seventeenth class, with the USS Constitution being NCC-1700. The Excelsior being the lead ship of her class and having that 2000 certainly lends credence.
Though that clearly stopped being the case by the Next Generation.
10,000 strong in 2285? I completely buy it. I'd say 50 tops during the Earth-Romulan War, then the steady increase in production with the Daedalus class for the rest of the 22nc century.
As I understand it first Contact with the Cardassians was in the Early 24th century. I know a novel based around the Enterprise-B dealt with how much some Starfleet officers were opposed to sitting on the sidelines while the Cardassians occupied Bajor. That was around 2319.
The Freedom, Cheyenne, Challenger, Springfield, New Orleans, and Niagra were definitely in my mind, byproducts of the Galaxy class development project.
Smaller testbed classes to test out components and get new technologies the Galaxy was going to bring together in one ship out to the field more quickly.
I've always thought of the Akira, Saber, Steamrunner, and Defiant...the First Contact ships as all being a response to the Borg and the Battle of Wolf 359. The Cardassians, Tzenkethi, So'na, these guys were beatable, that's what the Galaxy had in mind for known threats.
But the Borg outperformed the Galaxy. So they needed something more. Especially since they had assimilated Picard, they needed something new.
On that note with how poorly the Big D performed in the Dominion War i would like to suggest she is nerfed to compare console wise with the Galaxy but have the lt tact and ens eng switched around so the Big D becomes the worst cruiser in game. All because of 4 episodes of DS9.
Hey people throw the same 3-4 episodes/movie argument at us to hold the Galaxy back its only fair.
Oh and by the time of STO she is over 50 years old, she couldn't destroy a Jem'hadar bugship or penetrate its shields either. The D'Deridex was a epic failure blah blah blah
But none of the above matters as the D\Deridex is not a GALAXY CLASS. is that rug lifting and sweeping i hear
You could have your current run of t5u scimis and d'deridex do the tanked dps, and have the t6 d'deridex be an assassin.
The D'Deridex was originally meant to have the Galaxy/Negh'Var layout. It was their last attempt to keep the trinity intact, giving every "faction" the exact same trinity ships to play with. But people complained and they changed the D'D's layout but kept the Galaxy stats on it.
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Spare us the rage. And slow your roll while you're at it.
I've reviewed what I could of the battles on Youtube and on Memory Alpha.
Your argument would be more effective if you had done the same. As it turns out those 3-4 episodes of DS9, show a better showing of the D'Deridex than I initially though. In the Battle of Cardassia only one was shown destroyed on screen out of seven with five more shown surviving.
It's entirely possible that the D'Deridex is a lot tougher than I initially thought. She just wasn't showcased.
And no she's not the Galaxy, but it is clear that the Romulan players were able to get an improvement on what would've been the same BOFF layout. I was honestly making an observation, even if it was worn by time.
Would you leave the turn rate intact? I don't expect her to turn like a Defiant but that out of cloak base turn rate is pretty hard for a hit and fade style. Still the hit and fade is pure Romulan style.
If you look back at TOS the Romulan's primary defensive tactic was cloaking.
There was a lot of that going into Legacy's release.
People complained that the tier 5 version of the Valdore was going to have a LtCdr Sci boff slot, so it got a tac slot instead...I was rather agitated because there was a contingent of us that wanted that Sci slot. The mirror version is my secondary Rom ship right now, works very nicely.
Knocking out the smaller ships may have been very wise strategy considering what happened to the Odyssey. (I wonder if that was a thing, "Remember the Odyssey!")
It would be interesting if such a tactical analysis applied in game. Dominion mobs target larger ships in group combat, Federation mobs target smaller ships, and so on.
It just didn't come off that way, is all.
No beef. :cool:
It was an off handed remark to be honest, that sparked a minor discussion.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e103/roguedl/Galaxy.jpg
That does make sense considering what happened to the Odyssey. When the three bugships attacked, they honed in directly on the Odyssey instead of dealing with the runabouts first. And since the 'Deridex is close to twice the length and over twice the width of a Galaxy, and considering the Negh'Var didn't see loads of action in the Dominion War, it would make sense, given Dominion tactics, to take out the 'Deridexes first.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
they wouldn't mess with the console permissions if something tier 6 galaxy related wasn't happening soon. its ether that, or saucer sep on the guardian maybe.
i do not care about the 3 nacelle ugly kitbash. or at least give us the option to remove the dreadnought parts
ptffff, ya, you just know they are gonna have the nerve to think a standard galaxy is a dead end and over, and make that abomination the new standard issue galaxy, the only one that makes it to tier 6.
at best it was a 1 off, an admirals sentimental hobby, at worst is total nonsense that q dreamed up to make the situation he had set in motion more interesting.
and canon trek tech logic points to the later.
if they really wanted to milk it, they could releasing a 2 pack, but it would also include the guardian to make it a 3 pack, and give them all complementarity station setups. the guardian already has a LTC tac and sci, so the tier 6 galaxy R would have
COM eng
LTC eng
LTC sci
LT tac*
ENS uni
and the galaxy X
COM eng
LTC eng
LTC tac
LT sci*
ENS uni
and the guardian console would be added to the galaxy 2 part, and they can all use each others consoles and they can all sep. huh, that all fits together a bit TOO well...
The Guardian is probably my favorite ship console/boff layout in the game atm. If I could throw the Galaxy skin - with the Dreadnought nacelles (Just the two nacelles with the phaser strip addons - not all 3) on her, I would be on supremely happy camper.
Though as sexy as the Pathfinder is - and as nice of a job as they did with the Command Battle Cruisers - I have high hopes for the hypothetical Challenger.
If they actually do that though I'd like to see the T6 Explorer in a pathfinder layout. Might log in again and grind a bit dil to get that even. If they just rename the Guardian "Guardian class Exploration cruiser" and make it Galaxy compatible I'd be fine with that as well (well not actually since it's an Ambassador and not a Galaxy but honestly I stop caring about that. Cryptic prooved time and again that they neither are capable nor intereted in keeping logical evolution of designs and sensible line-ups. They just pump out new toys.) if only the Galaxy model gets a make over
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even if the guardian got grouped into a 3 pack, i dout the costumes would even try to be made comparable. that stuff just wont fit together.
those tier 4 only garbage skins would have a hard time saucer ceping, unless someone actually spent billable hours on those monstrosities, to make an actual sep point, on again tier 4 only skins.
True, I hadn't even thought about the weird T4 launch skins. But if they write "any exploration cruiser variant" they need to rework that - or they flat out state a lie
@gptx: Yeah, the Guardian is pretty much in form and function (layout in-game wise, in-universe none of it makes sense) an Ambassador refit. They probably should make those skins compatible.
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My first guess would be that it's just to clean up insane length of the permissions there.
But I hope you're right, fingers crossed. Bugger off the both of you, I love the Galaxy-X, and consider it a throwback to the old Federation class even if Gene tried to evict Franz from canon.
That said, I'd never use a Galaxy neck on mine. The Venture completes it.
I like your thinking here. Devs this is a copy paste this ^ situation.
I don't see the Guardian in the Galaxy family. It's plainly Probert's Ambassador to me.
Actually no it isn't. I sat my Guardian next to a Galaxy today to compare out of curiosity. The engineering hull of the Guardian is bigger and deeper than the Galaxy. The nacelles are longer with about the same thickness. The neck is about the same size and it's just the saucer that's smaller.
Not all of them. The celestial and envoy versions are limited to the T4 version of the ship and are overall of rather low quality and probably aren't working with saucer separation.
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it wouldn't be, the costume peaces could never mesh back and forth anyway. the 3 pack part would just be a way to make them all tier 6, to add a 3rd console to the galaxy console set, and to allow the guardian to saucer sep
interesting could you throw up a pic just out of my own curiosity. i guess when i tested it i was too far a way form the galaxy
i was mostly joking the main thing is i just hope the give the R love instead of dong what they did on the "revamp" and just put every thing into the X.
also the venture-x is one of the best looking ships i think just give it the galaxy saucer
The STO community is really emotional about the Galaxy.
It says something, that I've never once even thought of using the Celestial or Envoy. If we're talking about ugly here.
On the other hand, I'm quite fond of the Monarch, and I think everyone has love for the Venture, a worthy design to bear the name of one of the Dominion war's most illustrious ships. I could agree with that. You know...I never have gotten that close to a Guardian honestly.
I want to know how the guys that take the size comparison charts get their "official" lengths and the size shots.
The R definitely needs love. I think if the E-D God rest it, was in the game it would have to be a Fleet Tier 5U, if not outright a Tier 6, just out of respect. In the same vein I suppose the upgrade token should make the Odyssey a tier 6, but that's another conversation.
That's what I do, my G-X has Venture nacelles, and neck, with the Galaxy hull and saucer. I'm not really feeling the Venture's Stardrive...honestly I don't like the roundedness of the front of the neck either, but the gradual descending slope wins out. If I could get the front of the Galaxy's pointed neck it'd be perfect.
As for emotionalism...well there is that thing where for seven years of my life every Sunday at 6 PM on Fox 35, I would watch Star Trek The Next Generation over dinner with my mother. But honestly, why put a ship in game if it's not going to be logically usable....and why would you underplay one of the franchise's signature starships?