You still get dilithium when unlocking the 60 specialization points. You just don't get dilithium after that after this patch.
And that specialization is supposed to keep people busy for months.
They knew people would hit 60 on day one. They did not intend for people to amass dilithium stockpiles that fast.
The goal of this expansion is to make dilithium more scarce and valuable. They aren't interested in an UNLIMITED SOURCE with no time investment.
The typical player will take months to get 60 specialization points and will receive dilithium all along the way.
Except that now it's a case of turning in Contraband again and ignoring the game to get Dil. At least with the Dil every level after Spec was maxxed it would have been gained by doing actual content. Doff farming is the least of any content in the game period.
Also with the HUGE dil sink that is just ridiculous, requiring hundreds of thousands to upgrade a single ship. I was planning on dropping $50 on the game to get me back to my old dil levels, but that's not going to happen now. I'll just take my time, farm up as much as possible and not give a damn cent to them again. I don't mind a well thought out design for story and progression, DR is anything but well thought out or progressive. Having got two characters to 60 and one to 59, the storyline isn't too bad when played AS a storyline without the constant BS breaks added in. Hell there was 5 levels worth of story there, fine, let the story take you to lvl 55. Let the Patrols, queues take you the rest of the way in a meaningful time frame, not just against HP sponges that prevent you completing any PVE objectives or completing a Patrol in less that an hour...
I get that the game needs to be balanced to damage from the new gear, but that's assuming the new gear is going to be got at all by the casual playerbase. I don't see that happening for literally years, so Cryptic you need to work out a way to scale based off Gear AND lvl. Then you can claim you've fixed it. Anything less is just a load of horse manure.
Oh and those patch notes are a Spit in the face considering the Q post.
Chris Robert's on SC:
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
So after tomorrow thank the fools that ruined your dil after level 60. I just made level 60 took me 2 weeks with off and on playing yay but no dil for me now yay MORONS lol .
So after tomorrow thank the fools that ruined your dil after level 60. I just made level 60 took me 2 weeks with off and on playing yay but no dil for me now yay MORONS lol .
It was actually Dil. after "Level 110" ... 50 Levels to go anyway ...
Patch Notes : Resolved an Issue, where people would accidently experience Fun.
I am in Tau Dewa right now and it is behaving exactly the same as it did last night.
Here's my deal Cryptic: For every day you keep Tau Dewa down, it'll be a month before I buy Zen or use any paid content.
You need to know that payday is coming in two days and I intended to buy a bunch of keys and check out the lockboxes I have been getting. Instead I'll discard the boxes and forget it until December.
If it's still down tomorrow it'll be January. That will change my plan to buy and give some serious PWE gift cards for Christmas. It's up to you.
As huge multinational company with millions of customers I am sure you won't care, but I will feel better for it, at least.
I am in Tau Dewa right now and it is behaving exactly the same as it did last night.
Here's my deal Cryptic: For every day you keep Tau Dewa down, it'll be a month before I buy Zen or use any paid content.
You need to know that payday is coming in two days and I intended to buy a bunch of keys and check out the lockboxes I have been getting. Instead I'll discard the boxes and forget it until December.
If it's still down tomorrow it'll be January. That will change my plan to buy and give some serious PWE gift cards for Christmas. It's up to you.
As huge multinational company with millions of customers I am sure you won't care, but I will feel better for it, at least.
Sev
This is how we need to get their attention. Refuse to spend money on a game that feels more like a job now.
Because if this is how they plan on treating us players then there are other games out there to spend money on.
Except that now it's a case of turning in Contraband again and ignoring the game to get Dil. At least with the Dil every level after Spec was maxxed it would have been gained by doing actual content. Doff farming is the least of any content in the game period.
Also with the HUGE dil sink that is just ridiculous, requiring hundreds of thousands to upgrade a single ship. I was planning on dropping $50 on the game to get me back to my old dil levels, but that's not going to happen now. I'll just take my time, farm up as much as possible and not give a damn cent to them again. I don't mind a well thought out design for story and progression, DR is anything but well thought out or progressive. Having got two characters to 60 and one to 59, the storyline isn't too bad when played AS a storyline without the constant BS breaks added in. Hell there was 5 levels worth of story there, fine, let the story take you to lvl 55. Let the Patrols, queues take you the rest of the way in a meaningful time frame, not just against HP sponges that prevent you completing any PVE objectives or completing a Patrol in less that an hour...
I get that the game needs to be balanced to damage from the new gear, but that's assuming the new gear is going to be got at all by the casual playerbase. I don't see that happening for literally years, so Cryptic you need to work out a way to scale based off Gear AND lvl. Then you can claim you've fixed it. Anything less is just a load of horse manure.
Oh and those patch notes are a Spit in the face considering the Q post.
Okay. Pretend for a second that they want the dilithium trading level closer to 100:1 and they want it at a high volume.
Which is the better approach:
Limit dilithium access.
OR
Change the cap on offers so that you can't trade for a price higher than 100:1?
I think the first approach works better because it plays with actual market demand, trying to create value through scarcity. This has the potential for a higher volume of trades.
But they could always let everyone have dilithium coming out their ears but mandate trades at a rate of 100 dilithium to 1 ZEN. It's just that you'd probably get a much lower volume of trading this way.
This is how we need to get their attention. Refuse to spend money on a game that feels more like a job now.
But wouldn't that take the shape of long-term changes in the game's economic performance? Its pretty hard to decide as a small group on a forum "we're going to change cryptic's cost benefit analysis!" To me that just sounds like a cry for attention.
You might want something changed about the game but the only way to hope to change it is through reasonable arguments (which can be presented and considered by individuals), not calls for social action. The mechanism for that just doesn't exist in a world separated between forum [which is further subdivided into threads] and game. You can't build ANY inertia (and besides that mobbing doesn't justify a position. It just short-cuts discussion through social force on the presumption that, well, we can't all be stupid.)
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
But wouldn't that take the shape of long-term changes in the game's economic performance? Its pretty hard to decide as a small group on a forum "we're going to change cryptic's cost benefit analysis!" To me that just sounds like a cry for attention.
You might want something changed about the game but the only way to hope to change it is through reasonable arguments (which can be presented and considered by individuals), not calls for social action. The mechanism for that just doesn't exist in a world separated between forum [which is further subdivided into threads] and game. You can't build ANY inertia (and besides that mobbing doesn't justify a position. It just short-cuts discussion through social force on the presumption that, well, we can't all be stupid.)
At this point that seems to be the only way to get their attention, hit them in their net profit. They don't seem to listen to us when we have legitimate gripes about something be it on the forums or twitter or wherever.
Bottom line is if we let them do this they will keep doing it to us.
They have been making the game more and more grindy in the last year or so and this new content is just one more step in that direction.
Now I may be just an older disabled guy with little money to spend on games but I had no problem spending it on STO because I enjoyed it. That is no longer the case.
I find it very sad because I did love this game and it gave me hours of enjoyment even if the grind did get tedious sometimes, but at least before it was bearable.
so the patch notes for the next patch now say this:
The Skill Points and Expertise rewarded for defeating NPCs below the players current level have been updated.
They now correctly scale starting at one level below the player.
After earning all 60 Captain Specialization points, Dilithium is no longer rewarded when filling the Skill Points bar.
All Patrols and Deep Space Encounters in the Tau Dewa Sector now spawn NPCs at the correct level.
So let me get this right Cryptic, was this an issue with how quickly a person was leveling their spec trees or an issue with the really pointless dil reward for gaining extra levels after we complete said trees?
i honestly can not see how the dil reward would ever be an effective way of gaining dil (probably missing something here) especially considering there are easier ways to achieve the cap
Granted i can see why you would change the levels of the NPC's etc and they probably should have scaled to 60 any ways, your fault not ours.
as for the XP etc scaling, yeah this is a case of apples and oranges there will likely be not very much difference here any ways or maybe an increase in XP at 60
What i disagree with here completely is the fact that by YOU posting from a dev account called Q and then this patch notes you have taken it upon yourselves to call a sizeable amount of your user base a bunch of exploiters!
This simply was not the case and you are WRONG in doing so, you really could have handled this differently i don't know how about admit to your mistakes instead of calling your users exploiter?
But i forgot you devs are never actually in the wrong here are you? you also lack the common sense to not upset a sizeable amount of your user base over something so stupid, do us all a favour and actually get someone who knows how to do Customer Service to write these posts that do not blatantly call people cheats you may actually cut down on the nuclear fall out you just received for this
It's easy to say you're not gonna spend money, or log on, and it's another to actually act on it.
Not a realy a problem.. we again lost 5 fleet-members because of nerfbat, if it keep going like this there will be no friend to play with soon for me..
So let me get this right Cryptic, was this an issue with how quickly a person was leveling their spec trees or an issue with the really pointless dil reward for gaining extra levels after we complete said trees?
i honestly can not see how the dil reward would ever be an effective way of gaining dil (probably missing something here) especially considering there are easier ways to achieve the cap
It was dil ore. I can think of several ways people could have been using said "exploit" to get the 2800 ore that filling the XP bar up gave. Obviously can't be sure, but I think they would have worked. One would have for certain.
You just have to remember all the people that just sit there in a Tholian TD sector incursion to realise it...
At this point that seems to be the only way to get their attention, hit them in their net profit. They don't seem to listen to us when we have legitimate gripes about something be it on th
Not at this point. This is how it always has been.
Critique on the forums is useful if Cryptic perceives a need for action. If they realize that players are not happy and not spending money, they will try to find out why they are not happy. They can then look to the forums and see what they can do.
Imagine you'd go to a restaurant and the food is terrible and the waiter unfriendly. But you pay the price, give him a tip, and then say it sucked. And you do it repeatedly, coming back every time, complaining every time, paying every time.
If you were the waiter, cook or boss of that restaurant, would you see any reason to do something? You may complain ,but you still give them your money. If you genuinely didn'tlike it, you would not be coming back so often. If changing in response to your feedback would cost them, why would they bother? They are seeing your money. You may actually be just a guy that likes to complain, and not even be satisfiable.
Only when customers actually stay away is their a clear sign that they must do something, and feedback like your's would help them.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
It is super easy not spending money on this game. Over 2 years and counting. 😉
Though be careful - if you're buying Zen with Dilithium, your purchase may affect how much Zen other people purchase. (In addition to your mere presence may cause, if you use the Exchange, if you PvP, or do group/fleet content.) Of course, every single player's contribution to Cryptic's bottom line is small - but it adds up.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Ah, so looking at the patch notes it was definitely because of the xp -> dil ore thing. Makes sense. Bit of a knack-up on the dev's part though.
In other words they felt we were stealing from them again.
-Rule of Acquisition #113: Always have sex with the boss.
-I am one of the many victims from the hijacked Caspian Division.
I will not let the childish acts of a criminal ruin this game for me.
-The actions of Cryptic, on the other hand......
Though be careful - if you're buying Zen with Dilithium, your purchase may affect how much Zen other people purchase. (In addition to your mere presence may cause, if you use the Exchange, if you PvP, or do group/fleet content.) Of course, every single player's contribution to Cryptic's bottom line is small - but it adds up.
I've tried explaining this to a few people in very simple terms. All I could do was imagine the completely blank look on their faces.
Buying Zen out of pocket with real money = direct financial support
Converting Dil to Zen and buying zen items off exchange with ec = indirect financial support
I haven't been a direct supporter for over 2 years now, and unless I see something worth directly supporting them I'll continue to let someone else open their wallet.
In other words they felt we were stealing from them again.
Exactly, and look how fast THAT got fixed. Meanwhile we have to deal with another release of glaring bugs that will either be ignored, or finally get fixed by the time our great grand children come of age to play. Although I doubt STO will be around by that time lol.
Speaking for myself only, up until the launch of the new season i was basically at end game. finally after 3 years and with only a minimal amount of daily grinding i could actually play and have fun. the ratio being about 50/50 (50%grinding and 50% playing). like with most other MMO's the grinding was necessary in order to maintain the equipment i needed to go do missions and to play PVE and PVP.
Shortly before the patch with the intro of the upgrade system and the crafting system that grind immediately became 20/80 (20%play and 80% grind). now i was still able to swallow this because there was once again an end game coming, yes the dill hole got bigger but once my grinding to get back to the top of the hill was over i could let my everyday game play fill that hole after i hit lvl60.
But now i find out that you are taking the lvl60 dillithium away.... and why. not because it wasnt a great idea, not because it wouldn't lvl the game play for all players at end game..... because someone found a way to exploit it......
Well that's were im gonna say Stop.... Hold up...... One Moment Please...... instead of punishing the loyal players who still "actually want to play" and who are trying desperately to find a way to still enjoy this game, why are you not punishing the people who are exploiting your system. ban them, kick them, steal all of there worldly goods.......
But please stop punishing your player base! Those of us who are desperately trying to find a reason to keep playing.
- All PVEs and patrol missions will have a 20 hour cooldown so people will stop grinding them
- All DOFF assignments will no longer reward XP or Dilithium. Ever.
If that doesn't work:
- All systems are being shut down except for Delta Quadrant and Earth Space Dock. If you're KDF or Rom, TFB
NOW GET TO PLAYING THAT DELTA AND SPENDING REAL MONEY ON SHIPS AND DILITHIUM ALREADY.
Thank you for your patience and continued patronage,
PWE and Arc Games
The Dilithium Bonus weekend was on the Ingame calender before all of this happened.
At some point in time, someone at Cryptic is going to appreciate the irony of starting a Dilithium Bonus weekend by applying a patch that takes Dilithium rewards away. :P
The Dilithium Bonus weekend was on the Ingame calender before all of this happened.
Correct. And the Lobi thing seems more like a way to get people to open lockboxes for more Lobi, since you get nothing good for 60. "Oh, look! I only need 840 more for that T6 ship!"
"After earning all 60 Captain Specialization points, Dilithium is no longer rewarded when filling the Skill Points bar."
Of course, you wouldn't want to reward a player for all their hard work of making it to level 60 specialization, at least not over depriving PWE of a .00000000001% profit increase(satire). The more PWE keeps giving us stuff and then taking them away, the more players are going to start going away from the game and possibly never going to come back.
Shame on you PWE.
Looking for more info on Dilithium Rising? Click on the link below:
At some point in time, someone at Cryptic is going to appreciate the irony of starting a Dilithium Bonus weekend by applying a patch that takes Dilithium rewards away. :P
Just wait till tomorrow, when they finally realize that Dino-Tagging + Dil. Weekend is actually an Exploit ... and shut down the whole BZ :P
Patch Notes : Resolved an Issue, where people would accidently experience Fun.
Comments
Except that now it's a case of turning in Contraband again and ignoring the game to get Dil. At least with the Dil every level after Spec was maxxed it would have been gained by doing actual content. Doff farming is the least of any content in the game period.
Also with the HUGE dil sink that is just ridiculous, requiring hundreds of thousands to upgrade a single ship. I was planning on dropping $50 on the game to get me back to my old dil levels, but that's not going to happen now. I'll just take my time, farm up as much as possible and not give a damn cent to them again. I don't mind a well thought out design for story and progression, DR is anything but well thought out or progressive. Having got two characters to 60 and one to 59, the storyline isn't too bad when played AS a storyline without the constant BS breaks added in. Hell there was 5 levels worth of story there, fine, let the story take you to lvl 55. Let the Patrols, queues take you the rest of the way in a meaningful time frame, not just against HP sponges that prevent you completing any PVE objectives or completing a Patrol in less that an hour...
I get that the game needs to be balanced to damage from the new gear, but that's assuming the new gear is going to be got at all by the casual playerbase. I don't see that happening for literally years, so Cryptic you need to work out a way to scale based off Gear AND lvl. Then you can claim you've fixed it. Anything less is just a load of horse manure.
Oh and those patch notes are a Spit in the face considering the Q post.
"You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
It was actually Dil. after "Level 110" ... 50 Levels to go anyway ...
Here's my deal Cryptic: For every day you keep Tau Dewa down, it'll be a month before I buy Zen or use any paid content.
You need to know that payday is coming in two days and I intended to buy a bunch of keys and check out the lockboxes I have been getting. Instead I'll discard the boxes and forget it until December.
If it's still down tomorrow it'll be January. That will change my plan to buy and give some serious PWE gift cards for Christmas. It's up to you.
As huge multinational company with millions of customers I am sure you won't care, but I will feel better for it, at least.
Sev
This is how we need to get their attention. Refuse to spend money on a game that feels more like a job now.
Because if this is how they plan on treating us players then there are other games out there to spend money on.
Okay. Pretend for a second that they want the dilithium trading level closer to 100:1 and they want it at a high volume.
Which is the better approach:
Limit dilithium access.
OR
Change the cap on offers so that you can't trade for a price higher than 100:1?
I think the first approach works better because it plays with actual market demand, trying to create value through scarcity. This has the potential for a higher volume of trades.
But they could always let everyone have dilithium coming out their ears but mandate trades at a rate of 100 dilithium to 1 ZEN. It's just that you'd probably get a much lower volume of trading this way.
lol either way the rest of us got shafted by e few players as the devs said lol o well:)
But wouldn't that take the shape of long-term changes in the game's economic performance? Its pretty hard to decide as a small group on a forum "we're going to change cryptic's cost benefit analysis!" To me that just sounds like a cry for attention.
You might want something changed about the game but the only way to hope to change it is through reasonable arguments (which can be presented and considered by individuals), not calls for social action. The mechanism for that just doesn't exist in a world separated between forum [which is further subdivided into threads] and game. You can't build ANY inertia (and besides that mobbing doesn't justify a position. It just short-cuts discussion through social force on the presumption that, well, we can't all be stupid.)
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
At this point that seems to be the only way to get their attention, hit them in their net profit. They don't seem to listen to us when we have legitimate gripes about something be it on the forums or twitter or wherever.
Bottom line is if we let them do this they will keep doing it to us.
They have been making the game more and more grindy in the last year or so and this new content is just one more step in that direction.
Now I may be just an older disabled guy with little money to spend on games but I had no problem spending it on STO because I enjoyed it. That is no longer the case.
I find it very sad because I did love this game and it gave me hours of enjoyment even if the grind did get tedious sometimes, but at least before it was bearable.
The Skill Points and Expertise rewarded for defeating NPCs below the players current level have been updated.
They now correctly scale starting at one level below the player.
After earning all 60 Captain Specialization points, Dilithium is no longer rewarded when filling the Skill Points bar.
All Patrols and Deep Space Encounters in the Tau Dewa Sector now spawn NPCs at the correct level.
So let me get this right Cryptic, was this an issue with how quickly a person was leveling their spec trees or an issue with the really pointless dil reward for gaining extra levels after we complete said trees?
i honestly can not see how the dil reward would ever be an effective way of gaining dil (probably missing something here) especially considering there are easier ways to achieve the cap
Granted i can see why you would change the levels of the NPC's etc and they probably should have scaled to 60 any ways, your fault not ours.
as for the XP etc scaling, yeah this is a case of apples and oranges there will likely be not very much difference here any ways or maybe an increase in XP at 60
What i disagree with here completely is the fact that by YOU posting from a dev account called Q and then this patch notes you have taken it upon yourselves to call a sizeable amount of your user base a bunch of exploiters!
This simply was not the case and you are WRONG in doing so, you really could have handled this differently i don't know how about admit to your mistakes instead of calling your users exploiter?
But i forgot you devs are never actually in the wrong here are you? you also lack the common sense to not upset a sizeable amount of your user base over something so stupid, do us all a favour and actually get someone who knows how to do Customer Service to write these posts that do not blatantly call people cheats you may actually cut down on the nuclear fall out you just received for this
Not a realy a problem.. we again lost 5 fleet-members because of nerfbat, if it keep going like this there will be no friend to play with soon for me..
It was dil ore. I can think of several ways people could have been using said "exploit" to get the 2800 ore that filling the XP bar up gave. Obviously can't be sure, but I think they would have worked. One would have for certain.
You just have to remember all the people that just sit there in a Tholian TD sector incursion to realise it...
Not at this point. This is how it always has been.
Critique on the forums is useful if Cryptic perceives a need for action. If they realize that players are not happy and not spending money, they will try to find out why they are not happy. They can then look to the forums and see what they can do.
Imagine you'd go to a restaurant and the food is terrible and the waiter unfriendly. But you pay the price, give him a tip, and then say it sucked. And you do it repeatedly, coming back every time, complaining every time, paying every time.
If you were the waiter, cook or boss of that restaurant, would you see any reason to do something? You may complain ,but you still give them your money. If you genuinely didn'tlike it, you would not be coming back so often. If changing in response to your feedback would cost them, why would they bother? They are seeing your money. You may actually be just a guy that likes to complain, and not even be satisfiable.
Only when customers actually stay away is their a clear sign that they must do something, and feedback like your's would help them.
It is super easy not spending money on this game. Over 2 years and counting. 😉
Though be careful - if you're buying Zen with Dilithium, your purchase may affect how much Zen other people purchase. (In addition to your mere presence may cause, if you use the Exchange, if you PvP, or do group/fleet content.) Of course, every single player's contribution to Cryptic's bottom line is small - but it adds up.
year and a half and counting
system Lord Baal is dead
In other words they felt we were stealing from them again.
-Rule of Acquisition #113: Always have sex with the boss.
-I am one of the many victims from the hijacked Caspian Division.
I will not let the childish acts of a criminal ruin this game for me.
-The actions of Cryptic, on the other hand......
I've tried explaining this to a few people in very simple terms. All I could do was imagine the completely blank look on their faces.
Buying Zen out of pocket with real money = direct financial support
Converting Dil to Zen and buying zen items off exchange with ec = indirect financial support
I haven't been a direct supporter for over 2 years now, and unless I see something worth directly supporting them I'll continue to let someone else open their wallet.
Exactly, and look how fast THAT got fixed. Meanwhile we have to deal with another release of glaring bugs that will either be ignored, or finally get fixed by the time our great grand children come of age to play. Although I doubt STO will be around by that time lol.
Shortly before the patch with the intro of the upgrade system and the crafting system that grind immediately became 20/80 (20%play and 80% grind). now i was still able to swallow this because there was once again an end game coming, yes the dill hole got bigger but once my grinding to get back to the top of the hill was over i could let my everyday game play fill that hole after i hit lvl60.
But now i find out that you are taking the lvl60 dillithium away.... and why. not because it wasnt a great idea, not because it wouldn't lvl the game play for all players at end game..... because someone found a way to exploit it......
Well that's were im gonna say Stop.... Hold up...... One Moment Please...... instead of punishing the loyal players who still "actually want to play" and who are trying desperately to find a way to still enjoy this game, why are you not punishing the people who are exploiting your system. ban them, kick them, steal all of there worldly goods.......
But please stop punishing your player base! Those of us who are desperately trying to find a reason to keep playing.
- All PVEs and patrol missions will have a 20 hour cooldown so people will stop grinding them
- All DOFF assignments will no longer reward XP or Dilithium. Ever.
If that doesn't work:
- All systems are being shut down except for Delta Quadrant and Earth Space Dock. If you're KDF or Rom, TFB
NOW GET TO PLAYING THAT DELTA AND SPENDING REAL MONEY ON SHIPS AND DILITHIUM ALREADY.
Thank you for your patience and continued patronage,
PWE and Arc Games
Helpful Tools: Dictionary.com - Logical fallacies - Random generator - Word generator - Color tool - Extra Credits - List of common English language errors - New T6 Big booty tutorial
The Dilithium Bonus weekend was on the Ingame calender before all of this happened.
At some point in time, someone at Cryptic is going to appreciate the irony of starting a Dilithium Bonus weekend by applying a patch that takes Dilithium rewards away. :P
Correct. And the Lobi thing seems more like a way to get people to open lockboxes for more Lobi, since you get nothing good for 60. "Oh, look! I only need 840 more for that T6 ship!"
Of course, you wouldn't want to reward a player for all their hard work of making it to level 60 specialization, at least not over depriving PWE of a .00000000001% profit increase(satire). The more PWE keeps giving us stuff and then taking them away, the more players are going to start going away from the game and possibly never going to come back.
Shame on you PWE.
[SIGPIC]Click here to visit my STO YouTube channel[/SIGPIC]
Just wait till tomorrow, when they finally realize that Dino-Tagging + Dil. Weekend is actually an Exploit ... and shut down the whole BZ :P