If the people that run something, like an MMO, don't want you to do something in that particular thing, they have every right to stop you from doing it. It's in the TOS, ffs.
If the people that run something, like an MMO, don't want you to do something in that particular thing, they have every right to stop you from doing it. It's in the TOS, ffs.
It's one thing if they say, "Look everyone, we didn't want you getting xp that fast." It's another thing to call it an exploit. Sure, they have the right too... but that doesn't make it right to blame it on the players in a horribly bad cover-up for not noticing the xp gain people would get.
Someone up at Cryptic needs to explain why there are REMOVING DILL from Level cap rewards and replacing that with um NOTHING. Dill is essential in this game now with R&D the grind is hard enough - and to do this seems like a slap in the face.
Please Cryptic explain your reasosn for doing this.
Regards
T'Lara @Transwarpfire80
Flt Admiral - Rank 6 The Breakfast Club
A feature to reward dedicated players turns out to be too good to be true. Not surprising really.
The least they could have done was just reduce it to 1000 Dil or so, but I guess Cryptic really, really doesn't want people to gain enough Dil to upgrade things and to convert into Zen.
Like i said earlier, when the players find a way to acquire dil in a quick and helpful way other than how they wanted, they consider it stealing from them. Gecko's words.
-Rule of Acquisition #113: Always have sex with the boss.
-I am one of the many victims from the hijacked Caspian Division.
I will not let the childish acts of a criminal ruin this game for me.
-The actions of Cryptic, on the other hand......
Someone up at Cryptic needs to explain why there are REMOVING DILL from Level cap rewards and replacing that with um NOTHING. Dill is essential in this game now with R&D the grind is hard enough - and to do this seems like a slap in the face.
Please Cryptic explain your reasosn for doing this.
Regards
T'Lara @Transwarpfire80
Flt Admiral - Rank 6 The Breakfast Club
the answer is incredibly easy. they want you to take longer to get dil. they want you to grind, grind, and grind. to keep grinding until you canno grind no more.
Someone up at Cryptic needs to explain why there are REMOVING DILL from Level cap rewards and replacing that with um NOTHING. Dill is essential in this game now with R&D the grind is hard enough - and to do this seems like a slap in the face.
Please Cryptic explain your reasosn for doing this.
Regards
T'Lara @Transwarpfire80
Flt Admiral - Rank 6 The Breakfast Club
The development team has identified some exploitative behavior by a small number of players on some game maps. Those maps have been shut down during the investigation. Well share more as soon as we have completed our investigation. This likely will not be completed until sometime tomorrow.
Thank you all for your patience and understanding during this time.
Omnipotently yours,
Q
I'm guessing what was happening is people were not just power leveling to gain max level, but also to max out their specialization tree and continuing to power level to earn dilithium after their specialization trees were maxed out at a fast rate.
I saw so many players in Tau Dewa LFG for the Japori system. I asked why and was told it was a quick way to get XP or something. I did consider joining in to gain a couple levels but I'm glad I didn't.
Edit: If you're going to blame anyone, blame the players who exploited the game to cause Cryptic to respond this way.
It's one thing if they say, "Look everyone, we didn't want you getting xp that fast." It's another thing to call it an exploit. Sure, they have the right too... but that doesn't make it right to blame it on the players in a horribly bad cover-up for not noticing the xp gain people would get.
There is no difference. The entire blame goes on the ones that violated the TOS, period.
I'm not even saying it's right. It just is what it is.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news once again but I do not see how Cryptic expected this expansion to hold anyones attention for very long. I already knew there was going to be an XP frenzy as soon as I heard the level cap was being raised to 60. Although being that this release was basically the only thing released in a year since season 8 since season 9 was pretty much a dissection of Terradome which was already existing content so I don't count that as new content lol.
Anyways in some ways I appreciate the upgrades for being able to have things like 5 tact consoles for the KDF side on the other hand I don't see the value in customer retention making people basically buy their ships again because that is what it is. So in the end its just another rep grind, with a skill point and crafting grind where as D'angelo said the direction was less boring and more fun and that is just not what I see here. Although for some leveling episodes they were okay but as far as a day to day kind of player I just can't see myself on this grind again for another year much less ever again because I'm frankly way way burnt out and bored with it. Although I thank them for nerfing Tau dewa because it reminds me how I shouldn't be grinding skill points in this manner when I have like around 10 million excess in expertise but can't use it because you wan't me to grind more because you guys didn't come up with this until now so you are not going to let me use my vast pool of xp lol. This isn't an I quit message its a I am done with STO until they do something I can enjoy again to not waste my time or theirs on this matter.
There is no difference. The entire blame goes on the ones that violated the TOS, period.
I'm not even saying it's right. It just is what it is.
Are you saying that the players violated the ToS by doing something legitimate that's been in the game for as long as it's been around? It's suddenly the player's fault because the devs changed their mind on how much xp they think players should get?
Sorry if I'm misunderstanding you, but that's whatbit sounds like you're saying.
Most likely the system was granting more XP then Cryptic intended. Players realized this and took advantage of the situation.
how was it an exploit. You ACTUALLY think that people know exactly how much exp is intended. yeah, sorry, unless you want to say that there has been an exploit in teh game that last 4 years before they did anything about it.
Anyone who says this was an exploit is either delusional, or being payed by cryptic.
HOW is it an exploit, no one has explained this. it was using systems that have been in game since literally F2P at least.
My feeling is this, they haven't been specific so it's just supposition:
- the XP returns using the old 'low level leader' trick were higher than Cryptic took into account.
- People used this to power level to 60, some beyond 60 to fill out their specializations and then some got into dilithium territory and were using it to churn out limitless dil.
- Cryptic wasn't too fond of the fast rate of levelling and they really didn't like the fast, infinitely repeatable dil farm so they closed down the maps to keep people from doing that anymore.
- At this point Cryptic -really- dropped the ball on communication with Q's belated, terse post followed by utter silence on the matter.
- Forum-think ensued and the fires were stoked, giving Cryptic even less reason to poke their heads out even though they really should have at the outset of this mess.
how was it an exploit. You ACTUALLY think that people know exactly how much exp is intended. yeah, sorry, unless you want to say that there has been an exploit in teh game that last 4 years before they did anything about it.
Anyone who says this was an exploit is either delusional, or being payed by cryptic.
In all honesty, all of this really *does* feel a bit like an exploit.
Then again, I tend to be very careful before making such accusations. Like, was beta-stacking an exploit? To some, maybe (and then probably only because it went over their heads, and they tend to mark all such 'magic' as suspicious). Yet some people simply understand this game a *lot* better than I do; they do 50k, I only 22k. Doesn't make them exploiters, though.
In all honesty, all of this really *does* feel a bit like an exploit.
Then again, I tend to be very careful before making such accusations. Like, was beta-stacking an exploit? To some, maybe (and then probably only because it went over their heads, and they tend to mark all such 'magic' as suspicious). Yet some people simply understand this game a *lot* better than I do; they do 50k, I only 22k. Doesn't make them exploiters, though.
Depends on how you define exploit.
It would also be different in a game with a tighter game design and more balance. In those games when one activity/ability/trick is performing 10x better than the others it is pretty obvious you are exploiting.
In this game though one becomes used to getting 10x the performance compared to average. So things get a bit messy.
It's far more likely that folks will Just Stop Playing.
I think that Cryptic has finally found Their way to create Their own N.G.E.
It's not surprising to me that They have announced a Dilithium Bonus Weekend and a Lobi Give-a-way for this weekend.
They are trying to stem the exodus of Their player numbers from this past week.
<shrug>.
Yeah I think I am one of those players on the way out. Overall this new content has been a severe letdown.
Between the tedious new missions, the buff to the difficulty and nerf to the rewards of pretty much everything and now them trying to dictate to us how we should be doing everything in the game I have about had it.
The game has been becoming less and less fun over the last year or so and why play something that isn't fun? At the very least my wallet has been locked, put into a torpedo tube and launched into space never to be touched by Cryptic again.
There are many many other games out there that actually want to keep their players happy.
In all honesty, all of this really *does* feel a bit like an exploit.
Then again, I tend to be very careful before making such accusations. Like, was beta-stacking an exploit? To some, maybe (and then probably only because it went over their heads, and they tend to mark all such 'magic' as suspicious). Yet some people simply understand this game a *lot* better than I do; they do 50k, I only 22k. Doesn't make them exploiters, though.
It wasn't an exploit. It was the players trying to compensate for the severe nerfing that quest rewards gave in the new content.
It would also be different in a game with a tighter game design and more balance. In those games when one activity/ability/trick is performing 10x better than the others it is pretty obvious you are exploiting.
In this game though one becomes used to getting 10x the performance compared to average. So things get a bit messy.
A2B isnt an exploit, but some XP rewards not to Cryptic's liking are. Lets just face it, they can label anything they dislike an exploit, and anything they want to keep is "Working as intended" .
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
There is a difference between an exploit, and a "Devs think its not working as intended" .
What we had here was most likely something that scaled too well for the devs' liking.
An exploit would have been something like this : "A bug caused the game to award you 10k xp each time you hit ESC" or such.
I'm rather naive when it comes to exploits, so I still don't fully know how it went down. But if ppl could somehow fight lv 10 NPC's, whilst retaining their own 50+ levels, I would call *that* indeed an exploit. Otherwise not.
Also, as an exercise for the mind, later on, how far is Cryptic willing to take this? If I were to level up a new toon, and have my Fleeties take me into high-levels mission, so I can speed up my leveling, am I then exploiting too? In fact, this scenerio is exactly what has occured, several times, when I was making my main character, back in the day.
Oh. Dilithium continued to be awarded after maxing specializations? I can see what that "small group of players" were doing and how it might have been manipulating the game economy.
Knowing THAT, I don't think the devs overreacted anymore. Snark retracted.
Are you saying that the players violated the ToS by doing something legitimate that's been in the game for as long as it's been around? It's suddenly the player's fault because the devs changed their mind on how much xp they think players should get?
Sorry if I'm misunderstanding you, but that's whatbit sounds like you're saying.
As I understand it, the players couldn't gain much advantage at all from the Tau Dewa Sector Patrol missions, as were were maxed-level at the time and couldn't gain specialization points. There wasn't anything of importance to exploit them for, thus wasn't deemed as an exploit.
I heard about this right before I hit the sack last night and I've been away all day. So, my two cents on this bull.
Cryptic, if you're going to introduce a level cap increase and not give enough missions to level up, DON'T NERF OTHER MEANS OF LEVELING UP. I understand that you wanted players to take 2-3 missions to level up. That would be okay... if you'd given us 20-30 story missions. The story missions we have don't give scat for XP, and the patrols are barely better (when you can play them - I can name 4 off the top of my head that are all-but unplayable due to MASSIVE framerate lag, which was reported MANY times on Tribble. Sakari, Nassordin, Legira, and Parein, though the list is incomplete as I have yet to access the last patrol missions - GUESS WHY). Really, did no one during design look at this and say "wait, we're not giving enough missions to fill this leveling curve"? Did that discussion just never happen? It needed to happen. And don't say you couldn't think of story for it, cause I can do that for you. In fact, I will. If any Cryptic person sees this, shoot it over to Kestrel, I know she'll turn this rough outline into something superb.
(Begin Story Overview)
First, we need more space. Voyager crossed 30,000 light-years of space in its journey - we shouldn't be crossing this stuff in no time flat. What would have been great would have been 3 blocks. The first is the space leading up to the Nekrit Expanse, and the Expanse itself. Dominated mostly by Kazon, the story could be helping the Ocampans. (note: This region of space would also contain the Solanae sphere, since that's supposed to be near Voth space, which isn't THAT far from the Nekrit Expanse - though, on the opposite side from the Kazon). Enter here through the Solanae sphere.
Then you go into Voth space, to find them harried by (and harrying) the Borg. Ending the conflict with them, Starfleet decides to send sorties into the second sector block - Borg Space. Because Voyager was supposed to take TEN YEARS crossing that. So, you start raiding Borg space to make up for the Borg Red Alerts. Maybe encounter the Cooperative, help them liberate stuff. Then launch a raid on the Unicomplex (have the player run Borg Disconnected on Normal)... and then have the Vaadwaur attack the Unicomplex. And the Voth. And the Cooperative. And you.
That brings you to the Jenolan sphere region, with everyone we have now. OH, and the Krenim. Because Krenim space is now ENTIRELY subjugated by the Vaadwaur. Which is BAD. Cause guess what? Krenim space was right next to Zahl space. Where's Zahl space? Oh... just A STONE'S THROW FROM THE JENOLAN SPHERE. Which means a Vaadwaur-occupied empire is literally spitting distance from Starfleet's only good access to the Delta Quadrant. Making it tactically important to liberate the Krenim and ally with them. Then do your Kobali and Vaadwaur thing. There's more than enough story there for 30 or 40 missions for leveling to 60. It's not a matter of no ideas.
(End Story Overview)
Really, I love Delta Rising. The lock box is good for once, the Intel ships are fun (if stupidly OP), and the story that we HAVE is great. Specializations are good, the new Rep has a wonderful Ground gun, and the voice work - with and without the Voyager cast - is spectacular. But, you raised the level cap with the intention of making people level more slowly... and proceeded not to give us enough missions. People were grinding TD to work around this... and you REMOVED it. What, are you going to delete the Pi Canis sorties next? Turn of your shiny new (and mostly broken less-than-5-fps) patrols? Turn off queues? Remove all XP gains from the Foundry? No. Players want and need to level up. LET THEM. Stop trying to ruin a good thing. Stop trying to keep players from having fun. This is a wound. And the fact that everything else is so GOOD is salt in that wound. Why did you do this? It's not an exploit, it's working around a flaw in your system. And that's not a bad thing unless the flaw was intentional. Which would be very, very BAD.
That's my two cents on this nonsense. TL;DR, this is malarkey, they could have done way more, should have, and punishing players for working with what they have is stupid.
That's my two cents on this nonsense. TL;DR, this is malarkey, they could have done way more, should have, and punishing players for working with what they have is stupid.
Could not agree more however cryptic does not care
Comments
Which is a far-cry from what you said earlier:
It's one thing if they say, "Look everyone, we didn't want you getting xp that fast." It's another thing to call it an exploit. Sure, they have the right too... but that doesn't make it right to blame it on the players in a horribly bad cover-up for not noticing the xp gain people would get.
Please Cryptic explain your reasosn for doing this.
Regards
T'Lara @Transwarpfire80
Flt Admiral - Rank 6 The Breakfast Club
Like i said earlier, when the players find a way to acquire dil in a quick and helpful way other than how they wanted, they consider it stealing from them. Gecko's words.
-Rule of Acquisition #113: Always have sex with the boss.
-I am one of the many victims from the hijacked Caspian Division.
I will not let the childish acts of a criminal ruin this game for me.
-The actions of Cryptic, on the other hand......
the answer is incredibly easy. they want you to take longer to get dil. they want you to grind, grind, and grind. to keep grinding until you canno grind no more.
Perhaps this has something to do with it, and the reason why patrol maps were shut down in Tau Dewa sector? http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1265971
I'm guessing what was happening is people were not just power leveling to gain max level, but also to max out their specialization tree and continuing to power level to earn dilithium after their specialization trees were maxed out at a fast rate.
I saw so many players in Tau Dewa LFG for the Japori system. I asked why and was told it was a quick way to get XP or something. I did consider joining in to gain a couple levels but I'm glad I didn't.
Edit: If you're going to blame anyone, blame the players who exploited the game to cause Cryptic to respond this way.
I'm not even saying it's right. It just is what it is.
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Anyways in some ways I appreciate the upgrades for being able to have things like 5 tact consoles for the KDF side on the other hand I don't see the value in customer retention making people basically buy their ships again because that is what it is. So in the end its just another rep grind, with a skill point and crafting grind where as D'angelo said the direction was less boring and more fun and that is just not what I see here. Although for some leveling episodes they were okay but as far as a day to day kind of player I just can't see myself on this grind again for another year much less ever again because I'm frankly way way burnt out and bored with it. Although I thank them for nerfing Tau dewa because it reminds me how I shouldn't be grinding skill points in this manner when I have like around 10 million excess in expertise but can't use it because you wan't me to grind more because you guys didn't come up with this until now so you are not going to let me use my vast pool of xp lol. This isn't an I quit message its a I am done with STO until they do something I can enjoy again to not waste my time or theirs on this matter.
HOW is it an exploit, no one has explained this. it was using systems that have been in game since literally F2P at least.
Are you saying that the players violated the ToS by doing something legitimate that's been in the game for as long as it's been around? It's suddenly the player's fault because the devs changed their mind on how much xp they think players should get?
Sorry if I'm misunderstanding you, but that's whatbit sounds like you're saying.
Most likely the system was granting more XP then Cryptic intended. Players realized this and took advantage of the situation.
It's an exploit because it's not an exploit. :P
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how was it an exploit. You ACTUALLY think that people know exactly how much exp is intended. yeah, sorry, unless you want to say that there has been an exploit in teh game that last 4 years before they did anything about it.
Anyone who says this was an exploit is either delusional, or being payed by cryptic.
My feeling is this, they haven't been specific so it's just supposition:
- the XP returns using the old 'low level leader' trick were higher than Cryptic took into account.
- People used this to power level to 60, some beyond 60 to fill out their specializations and then some got into dilithium territory and were using it to churn out limitless dil.
- Cryptic wasn't too fond of the fast rate of levelling and they really didn't like the fast, infinitely repeatable dil farm so they closed down the maps to keep people from doing that anymore.
- At this point Cryptic -really- dropped the ball on communication with Q's belated, terse post followed by utter silence on the matter.
- Forum-think ensued and the fires were stoked, giving Cryptic even less reason to poke their heads out even though they really should have at the outset of this mess.
In all honesty, all of this really *does* feel a bit like an exploit.
Then again, I tend to be very careful before making such accusations. Like, was beta-stacking an exploit? To some, maybe (and then probably only because it went over their heads, and they tend to mark all such 'magic' as suspicious). Yet some people simply understand this game a *lot* better than I do; they do 50k, I only 22k. Doesn't make them exploiters, though.
What we had here was most likely something that scaled too well for the devs' liking.
An exploit would have been something like this : "A bug caused the game to award you 10k xp each time you hit ESC" or such.
Depends on how you define exploit.
It would also be different in a game with a tighter game design and more balance. In those games when one activity/ability/trick is performing 10x better than the others it is pretty obvious you are exploiting.
In this game though one becomes used to getting 10x the performance compared to average. So things get a bit messy.
Yeah I think I am one of those players on the way out. Overall this new content has been a severe letdown.
Between the tedious new missions, the buff to the difficulty and nerf to the rewards of pretty much everything and now them trying to dictate to us how we should be doing everything in the game I have about had it.
The game has been becoming less and less fun over the last year or so and why play something that isn't fun? At the very least my wallet has been locked, put into a torpedo tube and launched into space never to be touched by Cryptic again.
There are many many other games out there that actually want to keep their players happy.
It wasn't an exploit. It was the players trying to compensate for the severe nerfing that quest rewards gave in the new content.
A2B isnt an exploit, but some XP rewards not to Cryptic's liking are. Lets just face it, they can label anything they dislike an exploit, and anything they want to keep is "Working as intended" .
I'm rather naive when it comes to exploits, so I still don't fully know how it went down. But if ppl could somehow fight lv 10 NPC's, whilst retaining their own 50+ levels, I would call *that* indeed an exploit. Otherwise not.
Also, as an exercise for the mind, later on, how far is Cryptic willing to take this? If I were to level up a new toon, and have my Fleeties take me into high-levels mission, so I can speed up my leveling, am I then exploiting too? In fact, this scenerio is exactly what has occured, several times, when I was making my main character, back in the day.
Oh. Dilithium continued to be awarded after maxing specializations? I can see what that "small group of players" were doing and how it might have been manipulating the game economy.
Knowing THAT, I don't think the devs overreacted anymore. Snark retracted.
1: Content X will give players more than the devs intend to give them
2: The players play Content X anyway
THAT is all it takes to qualify as an exploit.
As I understand it, the players couldn't gain much advantage at all from the Tau Dewa Sector Patrol missions, as were were maxed-level at the time and couldn't gain specialization points. There wasn't anything of importance to exploit them for, thus wasn't deemed as an exploit.
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Cryptic, if you're going to introduce a level cap increase and not give enough missions to level up, DON'T NERF OTHER MEANS OF LEVELING UP. I understand that you wanted players to take 2-3 missions to level up. That would be okay... if you'd given us 20-30 story missions. The story missions we have don't give scat for XP, and the patrols are barely better (when you can play them - I can name 4 off the top of my head that are all-but unplayable due to MASSIVE framerate lag, which was reported MANY times on Tribble. Sakari, Nassordin, Legira, and Parein, though the list is incomplete as I have yet to access the last patrol missions - GUESS WHY). Really, did no one during design look at this and say "wait, we're not giving enough missions to fill this leveling curve"? Did that discussion just never happen? It needed to happen. And don't say you couldn't think of story for it, cause I can do that for you. In fact, I will. If any Cryptic person sees this, shoot it over to Kestrel, I know she'll turn this rough outline into something superb.
(Begin Story Overview)
First, we need more space. Voyager crossed 30,000 light-years of space in its journey - we shouldn't be crossing this stuff in no time flat. What would have been great would have been 3 blocks. The first is the space leading up to the Nekrit Expanse, and the Expanse itself. Dominated mostly by Kazon, the story could be helping the Ocampans. (note: This region of space would also contain the Solanae sphere, since that's supposed to be near Voth space, which isn't THAT far from the Nekrit Expanse - though, on the opposite side from the Kazon). Enter here through the Solanae sphere.
Then you go into Voth space, to find them harried by (and harrying) the Borg. Ending the conflict with them, Starfleet decides to send sorties into the second sector block - Borg Space. Because Voyager was supposed to take TEN YEARS crossing that. So, you start raiding Borg space to make up for the Borg Red Alerts. Maybe encounter the Cooperative, help them liberate stuff. Then launch a raid on the Unicomplex (have the player run Borg Disconnected on Normal)... and then have the Vaadwaur attack the Unicomplex. And the Voth. And the Cooperative. And you.
That brings you to the Jenolan sphere region, with everyone we have now. OH, and the Krenim. Because Krenim space is now ENTIRELY subjugated by the Vaadwaur. Which is BAD. Cause guess what? Krenim space was right next to Zahl space. Where's Zahl space? Oh... just A STONE'S THROW FROM THE JENOLAN SPHERE. Which means a Vaadwaur-occupied empire is literally spitting distance from Starfleet's only good access to the Delta Quadrant. Making it tactically important to liberate the Krenim and ally with them. Then do your Kobali and Vaadwaur thing. There's more than enough story there for 30 or 40 missions for leveling to 60. It's not a matter of no ideas.
(End Story Overview)
Really, I love Delta Rising. The lock box is good for once, the Intel ships are fun (if stupidly OP), and the story that we HAVE is great. Specializations are good, the new Rep has a wonderful Ground gun, and the voice work - with and without the Voyager cast - is spectacular. But, you raised the level cap with the intention of making people level more slowly... and proceeded not to give us enough missions. People were grinding TD to work around this... and you REMOVED it. What, are you going to delete the Pi Canis sorties next? Turn of your shiny new (and mostly broken less-than-5-fps) patrols? Turn off queues? Remove all XP gains from the Foundry? No. Players want and need to level up. LET THEM. Stop trying to ruin a good thing. Stop trying to keep players from having fun. This is a wound. And the fact that everything else is so GOOD is salt in that wound. Why did you do this? It's not an exploit, it's working around a flaw in your system. And that's not a bad thing unless the flaw was intentional. Which would be very, very BAD.
That's my two cents on this nonsense. TL;DR, this is malarkey, they could have done way more, should have, and punishing players for working with what they have is stupid.
In the announcement by "q" in the news forum
Could not agree more however cryptic does not care
You have misunderstood the system.
You still get dilithium when unlocking the 60 specialization points. You just don't get dilithium after that after this patch.
And that specialization is supposed to keep people busy for months.
They knew people would hit 60 on day one. They did not intend for people to amass dilithium stockpiles that fast.
The goal of this expansion is to make dilithium more scarce and valuable. They aren't interested in an UNLIMITED SOURCE with no time investment.
The typical player will take months to get 60 specialization points and will receive dilithium all along the way.
That's exactly what he said ...
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