I would encourage you really consider what a F2P Cryptic-made exploration feature would look like. It wouldn't be unique stories about unique places, unless you think doffing is story content.
Foundry authors will give you folks a genuine feeling of exploration, if you can forgive our typoss.
I would encourage you really consider what a F2P Cryptic-made exploration feature would look like. It wouldn't be unique stories about unique places, unless you think doffing is story content
Foundry authors will give you folks a genuine feeling of exploration, if you can forgive our typoss.
Off the top of my head I'm unsure, although there are many other gaming titles that offer far superior exploration...it couldn't hurt to take a leaf out of another competitors book.
Secondly I'd like to use this opportunity to say that my hat is well and truly off thus stuck to the ceiling! when it comes to the extremely dedicated players who create missions via the foundry, I for one wish I had the talent, imagination and endurance to create content; personally I think the last chap made a extremely valid and important point which I agree with wholeheartedly. I don't believe that its fair foundry creators should bare the entire brunt for exploration demand within Star Trek Online
Secondly I'd like to use this opportunity to say that my hat is well and truly off and stuck to the ceiling when it comes to the extremely dedicated players who create missions via the foundry, I wish I had their skill and endurance, I just don't believe its right or fair you chaps should bare the brunt of the demand for exploration for Star Trek Online Do you think its fair?
Thanks for the tip of the hat.
We're not exactly accustomed to fair treatment.
But, right now, players can barely find our missions, unless they search our author names, or if we have a spotlight. We'll take any opportunity we can get to see something having to do with foundry.
And I believe that our version of exploration will, for the most part, feel like Star Trek, instead of a slot machine or a doff system.
But, right now, players can barely find our missions, unless they search our author names, or if we have a spotlight. We'll take any opportunity we can get to see something having to do with foundry.
And I believe that our version of exploration will, for the most part, feel like Star Trek, instead of a slot machine or a doff system.
I'm really pleased you mentioned that missions are hard to find, its such a valid point! I've used the foundry menu and to be frank...it stinks worse then....nevermind! firstly let me quote this from the DEV blog by Mr Charles Gray?
"These missions used automated tools to facilitate creating large quantities of widely varied content"
Imagine if Star Trek Online kept the Star Clusters...however instead of the automated tools; as mentioned in the blog foundry authors got a chance of having their content put into the Star Clusters themselves, obviously it would be a fairer system for the actual game developers (such as Charles Gray) to create some exploration content also instead of being a idle (personal opinion...not fact) ...this idea just popped into my head..I'm amazed:D
Doff Exploration?! MEH, I'd rather sit on all fours and devour my table cloth...
I'm really pleased you mentioned that missions are hard to find, its such a valid point! I've used the foundry menu and to be frank...it sucks, however here is a idea for you below, however let me quote this from the DEV blog by Mr Charles Gray?
"These missions used automated tools to facilitate creating large quantities of widely varied content"
Imagine if Star Trek Online kept the Star Clusters...however instead of the automated tools; as mentioned in the blog foundry authors got a chance of having their content put into the Star Clusters themselves...this idea just popped into my head..I'm amazed:D
Doff Exploration?! MEH, I'd rather sit on all fours and devour my table cloth...
That's a very old idea that has been tossed around since the old EP used the word "exploration" and "Foundry" in the same sentence. There is another thread about it right now, lol. The "Why can't we do this first" thread.
The Foundry is not an equivalent feature. The Foundry is useful if you want more plot missions, but don't want to run through the Cryptic ones again. You pick your mission off a list, just like you do with everything but the clusters.
To go looking for stuff, and not know what you are going to find, is the whole point of exploration; and that is what sets the clusters apart from every other form of content in the game. The cluster missions were poorly implemented, and lacked variety, but that was reason to improve the clusters not remove them.
I knew someone would comeback with the knee jerk reply 'cryptic should make the missions'. Cryptic put the time in to make foundry tools avaliable. Almost endless entertainment. You said exploration was 'To go looking for stuff, and not know what you are going to find' well you are making the case for the foundry once again. You would never need to play the same mission twice. Yet you would prefer repeating the same 'kill 5 of these' or 'scan 5 of these' missions over and over again. You are making the connection that the clusters are required for exploration. They are not nor did they ever = exploration.
That's a very old idea that has been tossed around since the old EP used the word "exploration" and "Foundry" in the same sentence. There is another thread about it right now, lol. The "Why can't we do this first" thread.
I knew someone would comeback with the knee jerk reply 'cryptic should make the missions'. Cryptic put the time in to make foundry tools avaliable. Almost endless entertainment. You said exploration was 'To go looking for stuff, and not know what you are going to find' well you are making the case for the foundry once again. You would never need to play the same mission twice. Yet you would prefer repeating the same 'kill 5 of these' or 'scan 5 of these' missions over and over again. You are making the connection that the clusters are required for exploration. They are not nor did they ever = exploration.
Clearly they were otherwise they would not have been called "Exploration Clusters" - key word being exploration...as mentioned in the DEV blog by Charles Gray - Lead thingy ma bob content designer thing....never the less they were put together badly, but could be improved upon..yes, no?
From my understanding the newly launched foundry came originally from Neverwinter (I could be wrong on this so please don't quote me) however that being said it should not be down to the players to bare 100% brunt of exploration within STO, there has to be common ground and understanding xD
I knew someone would comeback with the knee jerk reply 'cryptic should make the missions'. Cryptic put the time in to make foundry tools avaliable. Almost endless entertainment. You said exploration was 'To go looking for stuff, and not know what you are going to find' well you are making the case for the foundry once again. You would never need to play the same mission twice. Yet you would prefer repeating the same 'kill 5 of these' or 'scan 5 of these' missions over and over again. You are making the connection that the clusters are required for exploration. They are not nor did they ever = exploration.
I assure you I am not making any kind of case for the Foundry; neither is it knee jerk, I've been saying it for a long time. The key point of what I said was that you pick Foundry missions off a list, while you have to go look for stuff in the clusters, and you don't know what you are going to get.
It's random; you can do it over and over, and it'll be a little different every time. That is the difference; how important a difference it is is purely a matter of perspective. Some of us consider it highly significant.
From my understanding the newly launched foundry came originally from Neverwinter (I could be wrong on this so please don't quote me) however that being said it should not be down to the players to bare 100% brunt of exploration within STO, there has to be common ground and understanding xD
Foundry launched for STO 3 years ago. After launch, we had a foundry dev team for 6 months or so, before everyone moved off to NW. So, now the "Foundry team" seems to have nothing to do with the STO Foundry and the STO devs may not have the programming knowledge.
I assure you I am not making any kind of case for the Foundry; neither is it knee jerk, I've been saying it for a long time. The key point of what I said was that you pick Foundry missions off a list, while you have to go look for stuff in the clusters, and you don't know what you are going to get.
It's random; you can do it over and over, and it'll be a little different every time. That is the difference; how important a difference it is is purely a matter of perspective. Some of us consider it highly significant.
Close your eyes and randomly pick a Foundry mission. You'll never know what to expect. And our missions are full of surprises, I promise you.
They are a substitute for regular plot missions, not exploration.
If you ask an author nicely, maybe they'll custom make a mission for you that is as bad as the clusters. If it didn't waste a slot, I'd make one for you where you "explore unknown system" to find an abandoned Federation outpost, before you make first contact with a planet that asks why supplies are late. I'll put the last mission objective inside of a rock so you can't complete it.
Seriously, though, I have never seen an exploration cluster mission that could not be exactly recreated in the foundry, word for word, action for action. So what is the real distinction beside the presence of an actual human being making a mission? Beyond the specific randomized maps, we can recreate any of those mission and do far more with triggers, effects, story, etc.
If you ask an author nicely, maybe they'll custom make a mission for you that is as bad as the clusters. If it didn't waste a slot, I'd make one for you where you "explore unknown system" to find an abandoned Federation outpost, before you make first contact with a planet that asks why supplies are late. I'll put the last mission objective inside of a rock so you can't complete it.
Seriously, though, I have never seen an exploration cluster mission that could not be exactly recreated in the foundry, word for word, action for action. So what is the real distinction beside the presence of an actual human being making a mission? Beyond the specific randomized maps, we can recreate any of those mission and do far more with triggers, effects, story, etc.
Too true. I wish I had the base maps though. :P Some of those ground exterior maps are AWESOME.
If you ask an author nicely, maybe they'll custom make a mission for you that is as bad as the clusters. If it didn't waste a slot, I'd make one for you where you "explore unknown system" to find an abandoned Federation outpost, before you make first contact with a planet that ask why supplies are late. I'll put the last mission objective inside of a rock so you can't complete.
Seriously, though, I have never seen an exploration cluster mission that could not be exactly recreated in the foundry, word for word, action for action. So what is the real distinction beside the presence of an actual human being making a mission?
You have to explore.
I'll clarify something; while I am totally opposed to the idea of the Foundry being the primary source of exploration, I've always been (more or less) OK with proposals to add select exploration themed Foundry missions to what is available in the clusters. That is, visiting one of those unexplored systems could get you either a Genesis mission or a Foundry mission.
If nothing else, I always felt it would make expanding on the clusters seem like less of a big job; and improve the chances of them getting some dev love for themselves someday.
I have never claimed that the Genesis missions were good; I wouldn't have been chasing after a revamp all this time if they were. It is the clusters themselves, and how they work, that I love.
On Thursday I went exploring in the B'tran cluster. I carried out a botanical survey, visited a space station to find that the crew had mysteriously disappeared, and investigated some strange energy sources in orbit around an unknown planet.
Yesterday I went back and explored B'tran some more. I found a planet the population of which was being poisoned by radiation from some crashed alien probe (only to have some random aliens I'd never heard of show up and try to steal it out from under my nose), I rescued a freighter from a Hirogen hunting party, then found a larger Hirogen force in the next system I visited that opened fire on me on sight (in my imagination, I made these the main body of the hunting party I'd encountered earlier).
This is exploration. It may be a pale shadow of what it ought to be, but it is still exploration.
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,687Community Moderator
edited July 2014
The current Exploration Cluster missions were almost always some variation of "Run into groups of enemy ships and destroy them", Scan 5 anomalies, Aid the Planet, or beam down and fight things. Mostly fight things. And there were times when they ended up bugged with enemies falling through the floor and still able to shoot you while you can't even target them.
I admit I did enjoy them a little but, but they got so repetitive that it wasn't really Exploration for me. I've had several missions in a row that was "Ambushed by enemies, killl 5 groups".
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
Yesterday I went back and explored B'tran some more. I found a planet the population of which was being poisoned by radiation from some crashed alien probe (only to have some random aliens I'd never heard of show up and try to steal it out from under my nose), I rescued a freighter from a Hirogen hunting party, then found a larger Hirogen force in the next system I visited that opened fire on me on sight (in my imagination, I made these the main body of the hunting party I'd encountered earlier).
This is exploration. It may be a pale shadow of what it ought to be, but it is still exploration.
Every one of these things can be done in a foundry mission for three or four times more rewards. I still don't get the distinction.
...Seriously, though, I have never seen an exploration cluster mission that could not be exactly recreated in the foundry, word for word, action for action. So what is the real distinction beside the presence of an actual human being making a mission? Beyond the specific randomized maps, we can recreate any of those mission and do far more with triggers, effects, story, etc.
The issue is HOW the mission is selected. I don't think people are going to actually miss the poor quality of the cluster mission content itself.
The Foundry is not an equivalent feature...You pick your mission off a list, just like you do with everything but the clusters.
To go looking for stuff, and not know what you are going to find, is the whole point of exploration...
For the Foundry to be an acceptable alternative, you would need to roll up to a cluster, click a "Take Us In" button, and a Foundry mission would be randomly selected from a list of "Exploration" type missions. This would require coordination between Cryptic and Foundry authors.
New features would have to be added, that are not available now. Among them would be a way for authors to differentiate between "Part 1" and "Part 2" of their series. Players would need the option to say "I would like to encounter more content from this author/never let me play one of this author's missions again". The ability to remember "Favorites" would be nice too, so you could replay a mission you enjoyed, as well as have an at-a-glance ability to see if a mission was updated by it's author.
...But, right now, players can barely find our missions, unless they search our author names, or if we have a spotlight. We'll take any opportunity we can get to see something having to do with foundry.
And I believe that our version of exploration will, for the most part, feel like Star Trek...
I think the Foundry has the potential to give you the feeling of exploration. Just not as it stands today.
The issue is HOW the mission is selected. I don't think people are going to actually miss the poor quality of the cluster mission content itself.
For the Foundry to be an acceptable alternative, you would need to roll up to a cluster, click a "Take Us In" button, and a Foundry mission would be randomly selected from a list of "Exploration" type missions. This would require coordination between Cryptic and Foundry authors.
New features would have to be added, that are not available now. Among them would be a way for authors to differentiate between "Part 1" and "Part 2" of their series. Players would need the option to say "I would like to encounter more content from this author/never let me play one of this author's missions again". The ability to remember "Favorites" would be nice too, so you could replay a mission you enjoyed, as well as have an at-a-glance ability to see if a mission was updated by it's author.
I think the Foundry has the potential to give you the feeling of exploration. Just not as it stands today.
I'd be all for this feature, but all of you players need to ask for it. The missions would need to be vetted. And you're asking for a programmer and UI, which is really hard to get in relation to the foundry.
I'll repost my thoughts from another thread:
We've debated this stuff for a long time. The problem is pretty simple. The random foundry content [that would pop up in a cluster] would need to be vetted, because chances are that a random mission would take you to a test publish or something that starts at a place like Vulcan. Our missions often have very specific story reasons for starting where they do, and it's usually not in an unexplored entry point.
But, it's unrealistic to ask Cryptic to devote a person to trying to find what is out there and what fits for an exploration cluster. They would need to outsource that task or commission a group of hand-chosen people to make exploration cluster missions. Immediately, this suggestion brings cries of "elitism!"
A compromise would be a GM who works with Foundry authors to find missions that fit for exploration clusters. Perhaps something like that could work.
There are other issues. If I was making a mission for an exploration cluster, I wouldn't want it to last more than 15 minutes. Thus, it would not qualify for rewards. Also, I have a limited amount of foundry slots. Other authors have run out of slots. Unless we were given special accounts, I'm not sure how many of us would devote a significant number of slots to exploration-style missions. That's assuming that players would want them to be short missions.
Every one of these things can be done in a foundry mission for three or four times more rewards. I still don't get the distinction.
I went exploring, and that was what I found. The act of going into the cluster to explore, and just finding these things in there, made the experience what it was. It's what makes the clusters different from anything else in STO.
There still seems to be some confusion, so let me create an analogy to help out:
Imagine that the whole of STO is a custom built PC - each major mechanic (DOffing, Space combat, Ground shenanigans, etc.) is a discrete component.
Now, imagine that the exploration clusters are a crappy spare hard disk drive - it's old, it's obsolete, it's ugly, it's boring - but it adds functionality, and some people love it.
Next, imagine that the anomalies in the clusters are a program on that drive that would really help with version 9.5 of your system as you replace your aging Crafting card.
You are Cryptic.
You think to yourself, "One of my components is not up to par with the rest of my system. How can I solve this?"
Then you have a terrible idea:
Instead of replacing the drive with something better, you rip it out of your system, only bothering to save the DOff mission files and some transwarp coordinates for two ships from it before you throw it in the garbage. The Cluster Anomaly program is gone for good.
Now, there's a gap in your computer's memory where the rest of the PC thinks exploration should be, and instead of replacing it, you hastily wire it to the Foundry - a component not designed to fulfill this role - to the place where the old Exploration hard drive was, and you expect the community who uses this PC to fix the problem for you. Exploration is dead in your hands - and with how you've neglected the Foundry, the playerbase may never have the tools, skill, or quality control they would need to revive it.
If Cryptic had a chance to tell us something better was coming, it was July 3rd, and they blew it.
the Foundry - a component not designed to fulfill this role -
This is the part I don't understand. Every single mission that was in those exploration clusters can be recreated and made better with foundry tools. We can make the missions far more advanced. We can make the stories better. We can have you explore strange new worlds, instead of running around an abandoned building looking for 5 consoles to scan.
Yes, it is a neglected part of the game. And there are a lot of authors who hate how this was handled. But we can make exploration better.
What you're asking for is a hardware upgrade to a mission system generated by a blender. What you are getting instead are actual human beings telling stories. Missions made by people should be better than missions made by a blender.
The clusters provide the illusion that they are a sandbox environment (that is, the cluster zones themselves, not the missions). You go in there, and you look for stuff. You aren't just taking the mission's word for it that you are out exploring; you go out there, you travel from unexplored system to unexplored system at your own direction, and you search for stuff to do your own self.
That's what I mean when I say the distinction between the clusters and any other form of PvE content in the game is that 'you have to explore'.
They aren't a real sandbox I suppose, since aside from Doffing, there isn't technically anything to do in those zones besides leave (be it back to sector space, or into an instanced mission); but it provides a sense of open-worldiness to the experience as a whole.
Basically, the missions themselves are only half the problem.
The clusters provide the illusion that they are a sandbox environment (that is, the cluster zones themselves, not the missions). You go in there, and you look for stuff. You aren't just taking the mission's word for it that you are out exploring; you go out there, you travel from unexplored system to unexplored system at your own direction, and you search for stuff to do your own self.
That's what I mean when I say the distinction between the clusters and any other form of PvE content in the game is that 'you have to explore'.
They aren't a real sandbox I suppose, since aside from Doffing, there isn't technically anything to do in those zones besides leave (be it back to sector space, or into an instanced mission); but it provides a sense of open-worldiness to the experience as a whole.
Basically, the missions themselves are only half the problem.
But you're flying around in an empty box scanning anomalies. Sure, you may choose to go left or right, depending on the distance of the anomaly. Then it's just a matter of a loading screen. There is nothing to see. And the anomalies are annoying when you're trying to find an actual system to explore.
I don't think I'll miss that part of the experience personally. The new way involves less travel, one less loading screen, and less wasted time when you're hunting for a system and not an anomaly.
But you're flying around in an empty box scanning anomalies. Sure, you may choose to go left or right, depending on the distance of the anomaly. Then it's just a matter of a loading screen. There is nothing to see. And the anomalies are annoying when you're trying to find an actual system to explore.
I don't think I'll miss that part of the experience personally. The new way involves less travel, one less loading screen, and less wasted time when you're hunting for a system and not an anomaly.
Loading screens aside, that's what exploration is; travelling around looking for stuff.
Hello, I am a new player for start trek online, I recently downloaded the game and to start with was very off put about the download size. Personally from what I've experienced so far the download should have been half the size. Also the program that I was forced to download alongside of star trek online called arc, is a very nifty piece of technology that will undoubtedly put steam out of business.
Then I proceeded to play a tutorial that seems that it was made for children, like infants. Go do this, go do that, railroading players. The tutorial didn't teach anything that you couldn't figure out from having played any game ever.
Several hours and many annoying cutscenes later, I arrived at Earth Space Dock, aka the Galactic Emporium Space Mall, with armed guards for customer security. Pretty good art work and whatnot went into this. I talked to the boss man in charge of the place and he gave me a space ship for my troubles, strange that a fresh out the academy cadet gets to command a starship, bad investment choice there.
Boss man Quinn proceeded to give me my first assignment to go kill some orions that were raiding a freighter right outside of the space mall, cause there definitely isn't a fleet or anything guarding a large circumference around Earth. So on my way to the orion slaughter fest, I get prompted to go to some strange place. Delta Volanis Cluster? Boss man quinn didn't mention that, but since I grew up watching star trek and don't like being rail roaded into things, I decide to take a look.
This Delta Volanis Cluster is a strange place, there are freighters and tentacle like ships all over the place, I wonder how they got here. There are some anomalies and what not here that it seems I am supposed to scan, they did a lot of that on the TV show so this makes a lot of sense. So I proceed to fly around and scan some anomalies, this is strange though since they are giving me things for scanning them and I have no idea what they are for. The tutorial doesn't even mention them.
Wow, I just realized that I have no idea where I am anymore. There is no auto course for me to get out of here like there is to plot towards a mission. Guess I am gonna pull a voyager and get lost in the Delta (volanis) Quadrant. Meanwhile I might as well do some more stuff while I am trying to figure out how to leave and get back on the railroad tracks that Cryptic has been so kind enough to lay out for me. I go ahead and go a little of course to visit an unknown system, cause they did a lot of that on the TV show too if I recall correctly.
Man this is great, I warp in am instantly hailed by the planet asking if I can render assistance, since this does not violate the prime directive which as a fresh out of the academy cadet I should be very familiar with, I oblige. They want a few things to help their colony and whatnot progress, so I'm definitely gonna help them out since that is the right thing to do in this situation.
But wow, this entire experience so far has been completely unacceptable. This content is terrible. The download size is too big, and I some how managed to get lost in the Delta Quadrant voyager style. I quit pce out.
Yesterday I went back and explored B'tran some more. I found a planet the population of which was being poisoned by radiation from some crashed alien probe (only to have some random aliens I'd never heard of show up and try to steal it out from under my nose), I rescued a freighter from a Hirogen hunting party, then found a larger Hirogen force in the next system I visited that opened fire on me on sight (in my imagination, I made these the main body of the hunting party I'd encountered earlier).
This is exploration. It may be a pale shadow of what it ought to be, but it is still exploration.
Honestly , you will find that sort of mission only one time over a thousand you visit a star cluster. I mean, cluster exploration missions are just beam down, find some artifacts / kill some enemies / beam up. Basically. I never found anything different than this. And that is the whole problem. If these missions were player foundry based, it will be totally different. But i agree, this is an example of what exploration missions should be (of course ,more complex, but this is the basic idea).
This is the part I don't understand. Every single mission that was in those exploration clusters can be recreated and made better with foundry tools. We can make the missions far more advanced. We can make the stories better. We can have you explore strange new worlds, instead of running around an abandoned building looking for 5 consoles to scan.
Yes, it is a neglected part of the game. And there are a lot of authors who hate how this was handled. But we can make exploration better.
What you're asking for is a hardware upgrade to a mission system generated by a blender. What you are getting instead are actual human beings telling stories. Missions made by people should be better than missions made by a blender.
I'm sure the good Foundry authors will rise to the challenge and create masterpieces - but how often will people play those instead of loot machines?
Keep in mind, all Cryptic is doing is adding Foundry doors. That's it.
The player still has to find the "Exploration " missions themselves, in the Foundry mission list that seems to be sorted by a blender. There is no exploration - the player chooses the mission, and the author dictates the direction.
Furthermore, the Foundry's limits are painfully obvious in every good mission I find - the ingenuity of the authors is incredible, but they shouldn't have to do what they have to do to get something really simple done - and some things even they can't work around.
And maybe it's a gorgeous story, one that transcends the confines of the Foundry tool and makes a mission worth more than the time it takes to plow through it for loot, but the spirit of exploration - the one that makes it to where you genuinely do not know where exactly the game is going to take you - is not present.
That spirit is why I loved Star Trek - and even as a newbie player I gravitated towards these missions. I knew they were sloppy and repetitive, but I also knew that they were the closest thing I had to exploring the stars, so I made the best of them I could.
I've said before on multiple occasions that Cryptic doesn't understand Star Trek fans, or appreciate them, but this seems low even for them.
Comments
I would encourage you really consider what a F2P Cryptic-made exploration feature would look like. It wouldn't be unique stories about unique places, unless you think doffing is story content.
Foundry authors will give you folks a genuine feeling of exploration, if you can forgive our typoss.
Off the top of my head I'm unsure, although there are many other gaming titles that offer far superior exploration...it couldn't hurt to take a leaf out of another competitors book.
Secondly I'd like to use this opportunity to say that my hat is well and truly off thus stuck to the ceiling! when it comes to the extremely dedicated players who create missions via the foundry, I for one wish I had the talent, imagination and endurance to create content; personally I think the last chap made a extremely valid and important point which I agree with wholeheartedly. I don't believe that its fair foundry creators should bare the entire brunt for exploration demand within Star Trek Online
Do you think that is fair?
https://twitter.com/Flamin_Gaming
Igniting You Passion For Gaming!
Thanks for the tip of the hat.
We're not exactly accustomed to fair treatment.
But, right now, players can barely find our missions, unless they search our author names, or if we have a spotlight. We'll take any opportunity we can get to see something having to do with foundry.
And I believe that our version of exploration will, for the most part, feel like Star Trek, instead of a slot machine or a doff system.
I'm really pleased you mentioned that missions are hard to find, its such a valid point! I've used the foundry menu and to be frank...it stinks worse then....nevermind! firstly let me quote this from the DEV blog by Mr Charles Gray?
"These missions used automated tools to facilitate creating large quantities of widely varied content"
Imagine if Star Trek Online kept the Star Clusters...however instead of the automated tools; as mentioned in the blog foundry authors got a chance of having their content put into the Star Clusters themselves, obviously it would be a fairer system for the actual game developers (such as Charles Gray) to create some exploration content also instead of being a idle (personal opinion...not fact) ...this idea just popped into my head..I'm amazed:D
Doff Exploration?! MEH, I'd rather sit on all fours and devour my table cloth...
https://twitter.com/Flamin_Gaming
Igniting You Passion For Gaming!
That's a very old idea that has been tossed around since the old EP used the word "exploration" and "Foundry" in the same sentence. There is another thread about it right now, lol. The "Why can't we do this first" thread.
I knew someone would comeback with the knee jerk reply 'cryptic should make the missions'. Cryptic put the time in to make foundry tools avaliable. Almost endless entertainment. You said exploration was 'To go looking for stuff, and not know what you are going to find' well you are making the case for the foundry once again. You would never need to play the same mission twice. Yet you would prefer repeating the same 'kill 5 of these' or 'scan 5 of these' missions over and over again. You are making the connection that the clusters are required for exploration. They are not nor did they ever = exploration.
WOW really!? lol
https://twitter.com/Flamin_Gaming
Igniting You Passion For Gaming!
Yeah, this thread is the latest incarnation of it.
Clearly they were otherwise they would not have been called "Exploration Clusters" - key word being exploration...as mentioned in the DEV blog by Charles Gray - Lead thingy ma bob content designer thing....never the less they were put together badly, but could be improved upon..yes, no?
From my understanding the newly launched foundry came originally from Neverwinter (I could be wrong on this so please don't quote me) however that being said it should not be down to the players to bare 100% brunt of exploration within STO, there has to be common ground and understanding xD
https://twitter.com/Flamin_Gaming
Igniting You Passion For Gaming!
I assure you I am not making any kind of case for the Foundry; neither is it knee jerk, I've been saying it for a long time. The key point of what I said was that you pick Foundry missions off a list, while you have to go look for stuff in the clusters, and you don't know what you are going to get.
It's random; you can do it over and over, and it'll be a little different every time. That is the difference; how important a difference it is is purely a matter of perspective. Some of us consider it highly significant.
Foundry launched for STO 3 years ago. After launch, we had a foundry dev team for 6 months or so, before everyone moved off to NW. So, now the "Foundry team" seems to have nothing to do with the STO Foundry and the STO devs may not have the programming knowledge.
Close your eyes and randomly pick a Foundry mission. You'll never know what to expect. And our missions are full of surprises, I promise you.
I play Foundry missions. I often enjoy the Foundry missions I play.
They are a substitute for regular plot missions, not exploration.
If you ask an author nicely, maybe they'll custom make a mission for you that is as bad as the clusters. If it didn't waste a slot, I'd make one for you where you "explore unknown system" to find an abandoned Federation outpost, before you make first contact with a planet that asks why supplies are late. I'll put the last mission objective inside of a rock so you can't complete it.
Seriously, though, I have never seen an exploration cluster mission that could not be exactly recreated in the foundry, word for word, action for action. So what is the real distinction beside the presence of an actual human being making a mission? Beyond the specific randomized maps, we can recreate any of those mission and do far more with triggers, effects, story, etc.
My character Tsin'xing
You have to explore.
I'll clarify something; while I am totally opposed to the idea of the Foundry being the primary source of exploration, I've always been (more or less) OK with proposals to add select exploration themed Foundry missions to what is available in the clusters. That is, visiting one of those unexplored systems could get you either a Genesis mission or a Foundry mission.
If nothing else, I always felt it would make expanding on the clusters seem like less of a big job; and improve the chances of them getting some dev love for themselves someday.
I have never claimed that the Genesis missions were good; I wouldn't have been chasing after a revamp all this time if they were. It is the clusters themselves, and how they work, that I love.
On Thursday I went exploring in the B'tran cluster. I carried out a botanical survey, visited a space station to find that the crew had mysteriously disappeared, and investigated some strange energy sources in orbit around an unknown planet.
Yesterday I went back and explored B'tran some more. I found a planet the population of which was being poisoned by radiation from some crashed alien probe (only to have some random aliens I'd never heard of show up and try to steal it out from under my nose), I rescued a freighter from a Hirogen hunting party, then found a larger Hirogen force in the next system I visited that opened fire on me on sight (in my imagination, I made these the main body of the hunting party I'd encountered earlier).
This is exploration. It may be a pale shadow of what it ought to be, but it is still exploration.
I admit I did enjoy them a little but, but they got so repetitive that it wasn't really Exploration for me. I've had several missions in a row that was "Ambushed by enemies, killl 5 groups".
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
Every one of these things can be done in a foundry mission for three or four times more rewards. I still don't get the distinction.
New features would have to be added, that are not available now. Among them would be a way for authors to differentiate between "Part 1" and "Part 2" of their series. Players would need the option to say "I would like to encounter more content from this author/never let me play one of this author's missions again". The ability to remember "Favorites" would be nice too, so you could replay a mission you enjoyed, as well as have an at-a-glance ability to see if a mission was updated by it's author.
I think you said it best:
I think the Foundry has the potential to give you the feeling of exploration. Just not as it stands today.
I'd be all for this feature, but all of you players need to ask for it. The missions would need to be vetted. And you're asking for a programmer and UI, which is really hard to get in relation to the foundry.
I'll repost my thoughts from another thread:
We've debated this stuff for a long time. The problem is pretty simple. The random foundry content [that would pop up in a cluster] would need to be vetted, because chances are that a random mission would take you to a test publish or something that starts at a place like Vulcan. Our missions often have very specific story reasons for starting where they do, and it's usually not in an unexplored entry point.
But, it's unrealistic to ask Cryptic to devote a person to trying to find what is out there and what fits for an exploration cluster. They would need to outsource that task or commission a group of hand-chosen people to make exploration cluster missions. Immediately, this suggestion brings cries of "elitism!"
A compromise would be a GM who works with Foundry authors to find missions that fit for exploration clusters. Perhaps something like that could work.
There are other issues. If I was making a mission for an exploration cluster, I wouldn't want it to last more than 15 minutes. Thus, it would not qualify for rewards. Also, I have a limited amount of foundry slots. Other authors have run out of slots. Unless we were given special accounts, I'm not sure how many of us would devote a significant number of slots to exploration-style missions. That's assuming that players would want them to be short missions.
I went exploring, and that was what I found. The act of going into the cluster to explore, and just finding these things in there, made the experience what it was. It's what makes the clusters different from anything else in STO.
I don't know how to explain it any better.
Imagine that the whole of STO is a custom built PC - each major mechanic (DOffing, Space combat, Ground shenanigans, etc.) is a discrete component.
Now, imagine that the exploration clusters are a crappy spare hard disk drive - it's old, it's obsolete, it's ugly, it's boring - but it adds functionality, and some people love it.
Next, imagine that the anomalies in the clusters are a program on that drive that would really help with version 9.5 of your system as you replace your aging Crafting card.
You are Cryptic.
You think to yourself, "One of my components is not up to par with the rest of my system. How can I solve this?"
Then you have a terrible idea:
Instead of replacing the drive with something better, you rip it out of your system, only bothering to save the DOff mission files and some transwarp coordinates for two ships from it before you throw it in the garbage. The Cluster Anomaly program is gone for good.
Now, there's a gap in your computer's memory where the rest of the PC thinks exploration should be, and instead of replacing it, you hastily wire it to the Foundry - a component not designed to fulfill this role - to the place where the old Exploration hard drive was, and you expect the community who uses this PC to fix the problem for you. Exploration is dead in your hands - and with how you've neglected the Foundry, the playerbase may never have the tools, skill, or quality control they would need to revive it.
If Cryptic had a chance to tell us something better was coming, it was July 3rd, and they blew it.
This is the part I don't understand. Every single mission that was in those exploration clusters can be recreated and made better with foundry tools. We can make the missions far more advanced. We can make the stories better. We can have you explore strange new worlds, instead of running around an abandoned building looking for 5 consoles to scan.
Yes, it is a neglected part of the game. And there are a lot of authors who hate how this was handled. But we can make exploration better.
What you're asking for is a hardware upgrade to a mission system generated by a blender. What you are getting instead are actual human beings telling stories. Missions made by people should be better than missions made by a blender.
The clusters provide the illusion that they are a sandbox environment (that is, the cluster zones themselves, not the missions). You go in there, and you look for stuff. You aren't just taking the mission's word for it that you are out exploring; you go out there, you travel from unexplored system to unexplored system at your own direction, and you search for stuff to do your own self.
That's what I mean when I say the distinction between the clusters and any other form of PvE content in the game is that 'you have to explore'.
They aren't a real sandbox I suppose, since aside from Doffing, there isn't technically anything to do in those zones besides leave (be it back to sector space, or into an instanced mission); but it provides a sense of open-worldiness to the experience as a whole.
Basically, the missions themselves are only half the problem.
But you're flying around in an empty box scanning anomalies. Sure, you may choose to go left or right, depending on the distance of the anomaly. Then it's just a matter of a loading screen. There is nothing to see. And the anomalies are annoying when you're trying to find an actual system to explore.
I don't think I'll miss that part of the experience personally. The new way involves less travel, one less loading screen, and less wasted time when you're hunting for a system and not an anomaly.
Loading screens aside, that's what exploration is; travelling around looking for stuff.
Hello, I am a new player for start trek online, I recently downloaded the game and to start with was very off put about the download size. Personally from what I've experienced so far the download should have been half the size. Also the program that I was forced to download alongside of star trek online called arc, is a very nifty piece of technology that will undoubtedly put steam out of business.
Then I proceeded to play a tutorial that seems that it was made for children, like infants. Go do this, go do that, railroading players. The tutorial didn't teach anything that you couldn't figure out from having played any game ever.
Several hours and many annoying cutscenes later, I arrived at Earth Space Dock, aka the Galactic Emporium Space Mall, with armed guards for customer security. Pretty good art work and whatnot went into this. I talked to the boss man in charge of the place and he gave me a space ship for my troubles, strange that a fresh out the academy cadet gets to command a starship, bad investment choice there.
Boss man Quinn proceeded to give me my first assignment to go kill some orions that were raiding a freighter right outside of the space mall, cause there definitely isn't a fleet or anything guarding a large circumference around Earth. So on my way to the orion slaughter fest, I get prompted to go to some strange place. Delta Volanis Cluster? Boss man quinn didn't mention that, but since I grew up watching star trek and don't like being rail roaded into things, I decide to take a look.
This Delta Volanis Cluster is a strange place, there are freighters and tentacle like ships all over the place, I wonder how they got here. There are some anomalies and what not here that it seems I am supposed to scan, they did a lot of that on the TV show so this makes a lot of sense. So I proceed to fly around and scan some anomalies, this is strange though since they are giving me things for scanning them and I have no idea what they are for. The tutorial doesn't even mention them.
Wow, I just realized that I have no idea where I am anymore. There is no auto course for me to get out of here like there is to plot towards a mission. Guess I am gonna pull a voyager and get lost in the Delta (volanis) Quadrant. Meanwhile I might as well do some more stuff while I am trying to figure out how to leave and get back on the railroad tracks that Cryptic has been so kind enough to lay out for me. I go ahead and go a little of course to visit an unknown system, cause they did a lot of that on the TV show too if I recall correctly.
Man this is great, I warp in am instantly hailed by the planet asking if I can render assistance, since this does not violate the prime directive which as a fresh out of the academy cadet I should be very familiar with, I oblige. They want a few things to help their colony and whatnot progress, so I'm definitely gonna help them out since that is the right thing to do in this situation.
But wow, this entire experience so far has been completely unacceptable. This content is terrible. The download size is too big, and I some how managed to get lost in the Delta Quadrant voyager style. I quit pce out.
- new player 309 -
Honestly , you will find that sort of mission only one time over a thousand you visit a star cluster. I mean, cluster exploration missions are just beam down, find some artifacts / kill some enemies / beam up. Basically. I never found anything different than this. And that is the whole problem. If these missions were player foundry based, it will be totally different. But i agree, this is an example of what exploration missions should be (of course ,more complex, but this is the basic idea).
I'm sure the good Foundry authors will rise to the challenge and create masterpieces - but how often will people play those instead of loot machines?
Keep in mind, all Cryptic is doing is adding Foundry doors. That's it.
The player still has to find the "Exploration " missions themselves, in the Foundry mission list that seems to be sorted by a blender. There is no exploration - the player chooses the mission, and the author dictates the direction.
Furthermore, the Foundry's limits are painfully obvious in every good mission I find - the ingenuity of the authors is incredible, but they shouldn't have to do what they have to do to get something really simple done - and some things even they can't work around.
And maybe it's a gorgeous story, one that transcends the confines of the Foundry tool and makes a mission worth more than the time it takes to plow through it for loot, but the spirit of exploration - the one that makes it to where you genuinely do not know where exactly the game is going to take you - is not present.
That spirit is why I loved Star Trek - and even as a newbie player I gravitated towards these missions. I knew they were sloppy and repetitive, but I also knew that they were the closest thing I had to exploring the stars, so I made the best of them I could.
I've said before on multiple occasions that Cryptic doesn't understand Star Trek fans, or appreciate them, but this seems low even for them.
No, the real problem is that NO ONE understands Star Trek fans nor appreciates them.