In listening further to this discussion, I see the misguided lackeys of Sela and Hakeev, and the fools who follow them in a self deluded abasement to the twisted and misremembered memories of the old days, state their case with its usual oily and slippery taste.
The Tal Shiar fed members of the Declared and Remans as well to the Elachi.
Yet their proponents here stated, "Oh no. Those weren't loyal citizens of the Star Empire. So they don't count."
The Tal Shiar blew up their own homeworld in a blind quest for power, yet their proponents here state it is the Republic which is committing acts of terrorism.
The Tal Shiar again and again align themselves with outside powers and connive against the best interest of their own people. Yet their mouthpieces here say it is the Empire and the Federation who are oppressing the Rihannsu and Reman peoples.
The Tal Shiar have no honor. In either deed or words. In either heart or mind. Their vision of a resurrected Star Empire requires all Rihannsu and Reman to serve them.
While they, in turn, serve others. As their highly willing and oh-so-cooperative slaves.
How is this better than the Republic's alliance with the Empire and the Federation?
Neither the KDF or Starfleet is busy deciding who is and who is not Rihannsu.
Neither the KDF or Starfleet has blown up their homeworld.
How does the resurrection of the Star Empire under the hand of the Tal Shiar and the guidance their owners, who are not Rihannsu, make things better for the Rihannsu and the Reman? Will it restore their honor? Will it make their House grow strong and prosper? Will others then view them as people who understand honor and are to be treated with as such?
Or will the Tal Shair yet again make the word, "Rihannsu" a dishonorable curse word all throughout the Alpha and Beta Quadrants?
D'Tan and Obisek may be mad fools to try what they are doing. Yet they are free to choose for themselves. They are not puppets dancing on strings which others pull. They have chosen to make a place for all Rihannsu and Reman in the sunlight. And they would accept even those who oppose them without reservation.
Enough talk! Bring your blade to Mol' Rihan four days hence! If you win, you'll have your way.
When you lose, you'll try to scurry back to your shadows. But this time, they will provide you no respite. I hereby declare my blade, my House, and my honor to be in blood feud with the Tal Shiar and any who would support them.
A six year old boy and his starship. Living the dream.
Meh, got to stop bullying me with this already. Only English allowed on this forum.
A translation is readily available, if you look for it (in fact, I provided the entire thing with its translation before I even posted it here; the effort needed to decipher the message is minimal). The comment was not addressed to you, however. It merely used your post as an example of what I was talking about. And when I do speak to you in Aenglish, you cover your eyes and plug your ears in order to continue singing the praises of slavery and oppression, so what would be the point?
Do you even realize the factual inaccuracies in the post I quoted? You claimed that the Hobus supernova was an accident. It wasn't. Hakeev may well have been too stupid to know what was going to be the result, but those behind the plan certainly knew what it would do. You claimed that the Elachi only consumed "non-Romulans," when that is patently false, and when called on it, you attempted to cover your mistake by redefining "Romulan" in such a way as to make the term equivalent to "slaves." You dismissed freedom as meaningless and useless, yet freedom was the motivation for Romulans even becoming Romulans in the first place, else they would have simply submitted to the dictates of the establishment on Vulcan and surrendered sovereignty over their own hearts and minds to a false orthodoxy. You think a true leader will bring prosperity; the Romulan Star Empire's leaders over the last 70 years or so have brought destruction and famine and poverty, whereas D'Tan has led us to a new homeworld rich in resources. You speak of working to make the Empire better, but the Empire no longer exists except in the misguided minds of those who were brainwashed into becoming stooges for Hakeev, and a few inept individuals who are incapable of facing reality but would rather look back on some past that never was through the veil of the rose-colored glasses of nostalgia. You "doubt" that the territory of the Republic was ever part of the territory of the Empire, but that is rather simply dismissed by reference to the map of the galaxy from before the rediscovery of ch'Mol'Rihan. And all along, you would have us forget what was done to Virinat and Crateris and the colonists of those worlds, as if those were somehow innocent mistakes without consequences, or even irrelevant acts. If your transparent propaganda is representative of what the Empire has to offer, why would anyone ever again look favorably on the Empire?
Do you wish to know what I said in Rihan? Do you see the link in my signature? Can you click it and explore till you find the page with frequently-used phrases and then use the Find feature on your browser to locate the exact message with its translation? Everything I have said in Rihan on this forum can be found there, with translations into Aenglish.
Heh, not like we are slaves here in the Star Empire.
Tal Shiar deeds are not representing the empire. You all got to stop blaming us about their actions. Empire has no any evil hive mind, it is a structure and symbol, which are being represented by it's people. Tal Shiar, Hakeev and Sela especially, is not what empire is.
Tau Deva was part of imperial space indeed, I forgot about that.
Crateris? lol It is new reman homeworld, which Empire gave them without asking anything in return actually. If something happens to remans it is not our problem.
As I have said before, Empire shall live until there shall be those who have faith in it.
__________________
[Combat (Self)] You lose 6549 (7572) Cold from the torment of the underworld.
Heh, not like we are slaves here in the Star Empire.
Tal Shiar deeds are not representing the empire. You all got to stop blaming us about their actions. Empire has no any evil hive mind, it is a structure and symbol, which are being represented by it's people. Tal Shiar, Hakeev and Sela especially, is not what empire is.
The Tal'Shiar is all that remains of the Empire; face the music. You point to Hakeev and Sela as if they were somehow exceptional, yet Taris ordered a blockade of a Romulan colony world affected by an epidemic when medicine would have taken care of the issue, and thereby was responsible for the deaths of thousands. When those people sought to rebel, her response was to order Tebok to use military force to put down the rebellion. This is typical of what the Romulan Star Empire became, and it is no isolated incident. Empire is not a representative government, but rather is the imposition of the foibles and whims of a false nobility upon the people. As time goes on, empires become more and more corrupt and decadent. This pattern has been observed over and over again throughout the history of many species.
Tau Deva was part of imperial space indeed, I forgot about that.
Crateris? lol It is new reman homeworld, which Empire gave them without asking anything in return actually. If something happens to remans it is not our problem.
Out of your own mouth you condemn yourself as having no concern for the people of the Empire whom you claim the Empire represents. Not only did the Empire have a responsibility to the Remans of Crateris, but they blatantly violated that by attacking them without cause. "No, that was the Tal'Shiar, not the Empire." When will you get the message that the Tal'Shiar did not act independently of the Empire, and that it is now all that remains of the Empire? And what of Virinat? You ignore that because the people there were Romulans and therefore cannot be dismissed in the same way you so cavalierly dismissed the Remans of Crateris, and hoping that we won't notice that you failed to address that crime of the Empire at all?
As I have said before, Empire shall live until there shall be those who have faith in it.
Only in their minds. The Empire is now nothing but space dust and a scattered and fragmented secret police force. It's time to move on. The first opportunity for Romulans to be Romulans, for Remans to be Remans, in centuries, and you would toss it aside to return to the cycle of abuse? If you are representative of those who have faith in the Empire, you are waging a very poor public relations campaign filled with lies, half-truths, explicit racism, blatant anti-intellectualism, and self-referential incoherence. Verily, you deserve to be a subject of the Empire.
As time goes on, empires become more and more corrupt and decadent. This pattern has been observed over and over again throughout the history of many species.
It is an unfortunate truth that this also applies to representative governments, as it did to our own original Republic. Following the rediscovery of spaceflight and the long First War with the lloan'na, we concentrated power in the Fvillhaih rather than in the People as it had been since the Sundering. That is what allowed the Tal'Shiar to become what it is now.
Will it happen with this new Republic as well? Likely so. But I intend to enjoy our newly rediscovered liberty while we may, and to defend it vigorously.
--khre'Riov T'Surial t'Riuurren
"You Iconians just hung a vacancy sign on your asses and my foot's looking for a room!"
--Red Annorax
Oh, and I am anti- intellectual now. lol
Sry protogoth, but you are pushing your one sided point of view as a verity. I'm afraid those debates, Republic against Star Empire, have no resolution as both sides shall refuse to accept arguments of each other. As I have offered before, Empire ought to get rid of Tau Deva and let those departed to live their own life, so Empire would be able to move on to more relevant stuff.
Also, I would like to remind all of you who likes the Republic, that it is all about reunification with Vulcan and none of you can be called rihannsu, as you are complete opposite.
__________________
[Combat (Self)] You lose 6549 (7572) Cold from the torment of the underworld.
Oh, and I am anti- intellectual now. lol
Sry protogoth, but you are pushing your one sided point of view as a verity. I'm afraid those debates, Republic against Star Empire, have no resolution as both sides shall refuse to accept arguments of each other. As I have offered before, Empire ought to get rid of Tau Deva and let those departed to live their own life, so Empire would be able to move on to more relevant stuff.
Also, I would like to remind all of you who likes the Republic, that it is all about reunification with Vulcan and none of you can be called rihannsu, as you are complete opposite.
I think Protogoth has been sipping the ale too much over there if you think the senate and praetor were elected if so then I missed that storeline were D'Tan won that vote :P
You fly the Tal Diann name but you do realize that the Tal Diann adopted many ideas and policies from the Tal Shiar correct? Only difference was the Tal Diann was governed by the military were as the Tal Shiar were not. Might want to read up on that information :cool:
The Empire lives on and will always live on in the STO universe and beyond. Judging by the final cut scene involving the Tal Shiar and D'Tan I am willing to bet my bottle of ale that things will work themselves out for both parties. Really D'Tan is a horrible leader and wants all Romulans to be cool and collective while the KDF and FED's have there way with what little is left of the Romulan people. In the end the Empire stands corrected to force them out and while I don't agree with the Tal Shiar in anyway, shape or form with the top command all gone now is the time for everyone to work togeather and rebuild the Empire to its former glory. Plus we all know Donatra will be back and put an end to this foolishness of D'tans anyway and put the Tal Shiar in its place, a rescue mission that has slightly been confirmed by a member in the IRF who attended a dev panel said that we haven't seen the last of Donatra so I guess we will see...
Oh, and I am anti- intellectual now. lol
Sry protogoth, but you are pushing your one sided point of view as a verity. I'm afraid those debates, Republic against Star Empire, have no resolution as both sides shall refuse to accept arguments of each other. As I have offered before, Empire ought to get rid of Tau Deva and let those departed to live their own life, so Empire would be able to move on to more relevant stuff.
Also, I would like to remind all of you who likes the Republic, that it is all about reunification with Vulcan and none of you can be called rihannsu, as you are complete opposite.
This debate is not a matter of conflicting opinions or interpretations. It is a matter of blatant falsehood and historical fact. Your opinion, like your preference, is not better than historical fact. Your efforts to say otherwise are what make you anti-intellectual (although your refusal to even attempt to learn the basics of Rihan says something along those lines as well).
The Big Lie you have repeated more than once is the Straw Man characterization of what Reunification is, but it's not the only Big Lie you've posted. Your attempt to blow smoke up everyone's butt is a failure.
So what's next? Playing the victim? Projection? Even more outrageous examples of the Big Lie? Or will you finally concede?
I think Protogoth has been sipping the ale too much over there if you think the senate and praetor were elected if so then I missed that storeline were D'Tan won that vote :P
You fly the Tal Diann name but you do realize that the Tal Diann adopted many ideas and policies from the Tal Shiar correct? Only difference was the Tal Diann was governed by the military were as the Tal Shiar were not. Might want to read up on that information :cool:
The Empire lives on and will always live on in the STO universe and beyond. Judging by the final cut scene involving the Tal Shiar and D'Tan I am willing to bet my bottle of ale that things will work themselves out for both parties. Really D'Tan is a horrible leader and wants all Romulans to be cool and collective while the KDF and FED's have there way with what little is left of the Romulan people. In the end the Empire stands corrected to force them out and while I don't agree with the Tal Shiar in anyway, shape or form with the top command all gone now is the time for everyone to work togeather and rebuild the Empire to its former glory. Plus we all know Donatra will be back and put an end to this foolishness of D'tans anyway and put the Tal Shiar in its place, a rescue mission that has slightly been confirmed by a member in the IRF who attended a dev panel said that we haven't seen the last of Donatra so I guess we will see...
D'Tan is not the Praetor. He is the Proconsul. The entire structure of government is different now. Trying to force it into the mold of what was is a mistake. ((And do you really expect a vote to be taken from players of Romulan character players?))
Seeing as the Tal'Diann predates the Tal'Shiar, the more likely direction of "borrowing" goes in the opposite direction. You might want to read up on that.
You might also want to review that recording again ((and finish the Rep so you can do all the missions you get from it, including the Mountain Pass instance in which Hakeev's chosen successor, Commander Ruul, is captured)). On what basis do you contend that D'Tan is "a horrible leader"? The charge by itself (without any supporting arguments) is nothing but ad Hominem. The Romulan Republic is allied with the Federation and the Klingon Empire; it is not subservient to them. Propaganda efforts to promote the contrary view have been rife, but they are as transparent as the failures of those who blatantly spew lies in their efforts to promote a dead polity. Donatra was assimilated. Liberating her would be a good thing, but trusting her to lead the Romulan people with Borg tech remaining in her body (it cannot all be removed) would be foolhardy.
D'Tan is not the Praetor. He is the Proconsul. The entire structure of government is different now. Trying to force it into the mold of what was is a mistake. ((And do you really expect a vote to be taken from players of Romulan character players?))
Seeing as the Tal'Diann predates the Tal'Shiar, the more likely direction of "borrowing" goes in the opposite direction. You might want to read up on that.
You might also want to review that recording again ((and finish the Rep so you can do all the missions you get from it, including the Mountain Pass instance in which Hakeev's chosen successor, Commander Ruul, is captured)). On what basis do you contend that D'Tan is "a horrible leader"? The charge by itself (without any supporting arguments) is nothing but ad Hominem. The Romulan Republic is allied with the Federation and the Klingon Empire; it is not subservient to them. Propaganda efforts to promote the contrary view have been rife, but they are as transparent as the failures of those who blatantly spew lies in their efforts to promote a dead polity. Donatra was assimilated. Liberating her would be a good thing, but trusting her to lead the Romulan people with Borg tech remaining in her body (it cannot all be removed) would be foolhardy.
A government made up of self claimed leaders I suppose if that's what your in to. At least in the Empire senators were elected to represent the noble houses.
The Tal Diann science division predates the Tal Shiar but not the Tal Diann Intelligence division which wasn't formed till the Tal Shiar came about. They were nothing but scientist till the Tal Shiar came along and they reformed and added the Intelligence branch using Tal Shiar policies and procedures in there methods. This is hinted at in the "Way of Dera" novel. Your only contradicting yourself even more. The Tal Diann serves within the Imperial Romulan Fleet which serves the Empire.
D'tan is nothing more than a carebear who wants so called unification and peace which is going to hurt the Romulan people once the KDF and FEDs have there way. He will sell out to have his so called peace, hell might as well fly the kdf or fed flag. It makes little difference, the Star Empire controls most of Romulan space while D'Tan controls only a small portion. Truth be told if the Empire wanted him dead it would have happened already, the fact that the Tal Shiar can beam into his office and have a chat (as seen in the Rep Mission) is living proof that they could kill him without breaking a sweat.
Hell none of the story makes sense really, you got RR claiming they want peace and independence yet they run around in scimitars. You got the TS running around just killing everything in sight. You got the feds and kdf fighting over the Dyson area which is supposed to be in Romulan space. Might as well just call it a Mexican standoff haha :P
A government made up of self claimed leaders I suppose if that's what your in to. At least in the Empire senators were elected to represent the noble houses.
The Tal Diann science division predates the Tal Shiar but not the Tal Diann Intelligence division which wasn't formed till the Tal Shiar came about. They were nothing but scientist till the Tal Shiar came along and they reformed and added the Intelligence branch using Tal Shiar policies and procedures in there methods. This is hinted at in the "Way of Dera" novel. Your only contradicting yourself even more. The Tal Diann serves within the Imperial Romulan Fleet which serves the Empire.
D'tan is nothing more than a carebear who wants so called unification and peace which is going to hurt the Romulan people once the KDF and FEDs have there way. He will sell out to have his so called peace, hell might as well fly the kdf or fed flag. It makes little difference, the Star Empire controls most of Romulan space while D'Tan controls only a small portion. Truth be told if the Empire wanted him dead it would have happened already, the fact that the Tal Shiar can beam into his office and have a chat (as seen in the Rep Mission) is living proof that they could kill him without breaking a sweat.
Hell none of the story makes sense really, you got RR claiming they want peace and independence yet they run around in scimitars. You got the TS running around just killing everything in sight. You got the feds and kdf fighting over the Dyson area which is supposed to be in Romulan space. Might as well just call it a Mexican standoff haha :P
Nobody said the Senators were self-proclaimed. They were appointed for services to the Republic.
The Tal'Diann existed as an Internal Affairs Division and as Military Intelligence LONG before the Tal'Shiar came into existence. I contradict myself? Didn't I say something about "projection" just a couple of posts ago? The Tal'Diann is not part of the Imperial Romulan Fleet, but is an independent fleet within the Star Navy. Indeed, the hru'Phi'Tlarum is equal to every other member of the Star Command, and in imperial times, answered only to the Praetor or Emperor/Empress. Now the hru'Phi'Tlarum answers only to D'Tan. I should know; I am the hru'Phi'Tlarum.
D'Tan's belief in Reunification is not a policy he pushes on the Republic. This is another example of the Straw Man and Big Lie which imperialists have spouted for months. Carebear? A man who stood against the Tal'Shiar and the Empire, formed a resistance movement, presided over multiple missions involving military action? How many more obvious lies are you going to attempt? The Empire is dead. Dead. It controls nothing. The only vestige of the Empire is the Tal'Shiar, who are scattered and fragmented. They are only an annoyance now. As for one of their operatives beaming into D'Tan's office, that happened once; security measures have been put in place since then to prevent unauthorized beam-ins by anyone. ((And seriously, that is a cutscene from a single mission; there are five tiers in the New Romulan Reputation. I suggest you earn them and do the missions that come from them before you continue to make untenable claims.))
So what's next? Playing the victim? Projection? Even more outrageous examples of the Big Lie? Or will you finally concede?
Neva! lol
I am not learning rihan because there is no good source for it and I have plenty of things to learn irl because I study.
You are the most brainwashed here. You shall refuse any opinion which is different from yours.
You say your republic has freedom, while you refuse mine and of anyone who is in Empire.
Even me, with all my denialism and anti- intellectualism, I have heard opposing arguments regarding the Tal Shiar and agreed that not all of its actions are correct.
Also, I see only republicans here are the ones who threatening with war and brute force. As teh storyline shows those are terrorists and renegades.
Whole republican senate is self-proclaimed as none gave them power to form it in the first place.
__________________
[Combat (Self)] You lose 6549 (7572) Cold from the torment of the underworld.
did i miss this, sry I took a vacation on Vulcan, however, I welcome any members of the tal shiar and their allies to our world, I have a lovely new training scenario for my crew which needs targets. Perhaps we could arrange for them to meet in a grav well, then unlease there own weapon against them, that would be funny.
Jorhana Kreig: KDF, Tal'is: Romulan Fed, Shona'a: Romulan KDF, Johan Paul Kreig: Fed
Nobody said the Senators were self-proclaimed. They were appointed for services to the Republic.
The Tal'Diann existed as an Internal Affairs Division and as Military Intelligence LONG before the Tal'Shiar came into existence. I contradict myself? Didn't I say something about "projection" just a couple of posts ago? The Tal'Diann is not part of the Imperial Romulan Fleet, but is an independent fleet within the Star Navy. Indeed, the hru'Phi'Tlarum is equal to every other member of the Star Command, and in imperial times, answered only to the Praetor or Emperor/Empress. Now the hru'Phi'Tlarum answers only to D'Tan. I should know; I am the hru'Phi'Tlarum.
D'Tan's belief in Reunification is not a policy he pushes on the Republic. This is another example of the Straw Man and Big Lie which imperialists have spouted for months. Carebear? A man who stood against the Tal'Shiar and the Empire, formed a resistance movement, presided over multiple missions involving military action? How many more obvious lies are you going to attempt? The Empire is dead. Dead. It controls nothing. The only vestige of the Empire is the Tal'Shiar, who are scattered and fragmented. They are only an annoyance now. As for one of their operatives beaming into D'Tan's office, that happened once; security measures have been put in place since then to prevent unauthorized beam-ins by anyone. ((And seriously, that is a cutscene from a single mission; there are five tiers in the New Romulan Reputation. I suggest you earn them and do the missions that come from them before you continue to make untenable claims.))
Appointed by who!? They are terrorist and will be executed as such for crimes against the Empire if any true Romulan had there way with the storyline. They had no authority to form a government from anyone as another posted had mentioned. Those who rebel against there own countrymen and government are traitors and terrorist. D'Tan should have rose to power in the Empire and make change from the inside.
I think you are very mistaken and should reread your sources again and if you can find actual CANON proof that the Tal Diann Intelligence branch existed before the Tal Diann then maybe ill give you some piece of credit.
So you telling me that at no point in my leveling experience he doesn't rant and rave about unification? Security measures in place pfft what did you pull that from someone's foundry mission lol As others have mentioned you are simply one sided and are making things up as you go. The Empire controls almost 90% of Romulan space, the Republic only controls one sector area, so I have no idea what your talking about the Empire being dead. Maybe in your eyes it is dead but to many TRUE Romulans the Empire will live forever as long as there are those who believe. Maybe you think I am talking about the Tal Shiar which I am not, I am simply referrering to the Empire as a whole and the systems which comprise it.
Neva! lol
I am not learning rihan because there is no good source for it and I have plenty of things to learn irl because I study.
You are the most brainwashed here. You shall refuse any opinion which is different from yours.
You say your republic has freedom, while you refuse mine and of anyone who is in Empire.
Even me, with all my denialism and anti- intellectualism, I have heard opposing arguments regarding the Tal Shiar and agreed that not all of its actions are correct.
Also, I see only republicans here are the ones who threatening with war and brute force. As teh storyline shows those are terrorists and renegades.
Whole republican senate is self-proclaimed as none gave them power to form it in the first place.
Again, the link in my signature will lead you to resources for learning Rihan.
What you have failed to grasp is that not everything is opinion. There is historical fact, and there is historical revisionism. The former is not opinion; the latter is an attempt at deception.
The storyline shows the exact opposite of the Tal'Shiar claim that the Republic is a gang of terrorists; the evidence presented by a Tal'Shiar stooge was contradicted by the information in the computers of a Tal'Shiar listening post, and she, like you, continued to insist that the lie was truth.
The Senate of the Republic was appointed by D'Tan; this is hardly a new thing in Romulan history, seeing as Sela dismissed and appointed Senators to suit her own prejudices (and she was not the first to do this).
Appointed by who!? They are terrorist and will be executed as such for crimes against the Empire if any true Romulan had there way with the storyline. They had no authority to form a government from anyone as another posted had mentioned. Those who rebel against there own countrymen and government are traitors and terrorist. D'Tan should have rose to power in the Empire and make change from the inside.
I think you are very mistaken and should reread your sources again and if you can find actual CANON proof that the Tal Diann Intelligence branch existed before the Tal Diann then maybe ill give you some piece of credit.
So you telling me that at no point in my leveling experience he doesn't rant and rave about unification? Security measures in place pfft what did you pull that from someone's foundry mission lol As others have mentioned you are simply one sided and are making things up as you go. The Empire controls almost 90% of Romulan space, the Republic only controls one sector area, so I have no idea what your talking about the Empire being dead. Maybe in your eyes it is dead but to many TRUE Romulans the Empire will live forever as long as there are those who believe. Maybe you think I am talking about the Tal Shiar which I am not, I am simply referrering to the Empire as a whole and the systems which comprise it.
Appointed by the legitimate head of government for the Republic. You claim that Senators were elected in the Star Empire; that was manifestly not always the case. Sela was not the only head of state in the Romulan Star Empire to remove Senators and appoint Senators. She may well have been the first to declare that the Senate would serve at her pleasure, however.
The charge of terrorism was disproved by data from the Tal'Shiar who first made the accusation; now you resurrect it in order to justify your empty threats of execution. Traitors and terrorists for standing up to the tyranny of the Empire, and daring to affirm the principle of self-determination for which our ancestors left Vulcan? Again, my people, do we have to see any more from these imperialists before they are recognized for the delusional bullies they are? Is this what a member of my family would support, Symakhos?
No, I am not mistaken. ((And you know very well that there is no canonical source which even mentions the Tal'Diann, nor is there any canonical source which gives a date for the founding of the Tal'Shiar. I did my research, rather thoroughly, having spent over 2 weeks just wrestling with all the continuity issues, and you would know that I know what I'm talking about if you would but review the history of this forum, or bother to read my discussion on Romulan identity, culture, and history.))
I've never observed D'Tan to do more than speak of Reunification briefly and in passing. If a mere mention constitutes ranting and raving to you, then perhaps I could recommend a tea made from this lovely lavender flower to soothe your obviously overly-excitable nature. Security measures, as would only be logical -- although I suppose any logic would be lost on those who swallow a camel but strain out a gnat, especially as they do not understand the difference between the academic discipline of Logic and the Religious Worldview founded by Surak and mistranslated into Aenglish as "Logic." The Empire is nothing but the Tal'Shiar now, and the Tal'Shiar are broken and scattered without a head. While their cells are spread throughout the territory you speak of, they are not in control of it; a single strike force could wipe them out, were they not hiding in fear. There are a few deluded individuals who imagine that the Empire still lives, but the only power left of the Empire is the Tal'Shiar, and their goal for decades has been domination of the Empire with their own lording over the rest.
The Empire had its day; that day is over. Those who support the Empire have demonstrated repeatedly that they are not competent or rational enough to be trusted with a plasma pistol.
Appointed by the legitimate head of government for the Republic. You claim that Senators were elected in the Star Empire; that was manifestly not always the case. Sela was not the only head of state in the Romulan Star Empire to remove Senators and appoint Senators. She may well have been the first to declare that the Senate would serve at her pleasure, however.
The charge of terrorism was disproved by data from the Tal'Shiar who first made the accusation; now you resurrect it in order to justify your empty threats of execution. Traitors and terrorists for standing up to the tyranny of the Empire, and daring to affirm the principle of self-determination for which our ancestors left Vulcan? Again, my people, do we have to see any more from these imperialists before they are recognized for the delusional bullies they are? Is this what a member of my family would support, Symakhos?
No, I am not mistaken. ((And you know very well that there is no canonical source which even mentions the Tal'Diann, nor is there any canonical source which gives a date for the founding of the Tal'Shiar. I did my research, rather thoroughly, having spent over 2 weeks just wrestling with all the continuity issues, and you would know that I know what I'm talking about if you would but review the history of this forum, or bother to read my discussion on Romulan identity, culture, and history.))
I've never observed D'Tan to do more than speak of Reunification briefly and in passing. If a mere mention constitutes ranting and raving to you, then perhaps I could recommend a tea made from this lovely lavender flower to soothe your obviously overly-excitable nature. Security measures, as would only be logical -- although I suppose any logic would be lost on those who swallow a camel but strain out a gnat, especially as they do not understand the difference between the academic discipline of Logic and the Religious Worldview founded by Surak and mistranslated into Aenglish as "Logic." The Empire is nothing but the Tal'Shiar now, and the Tal'Shiar are broken and scattered without a head. While their cells are spread throughout the territory you speak of, they are not in control of it; a single strike force could wipe them out, were they not hiding in fear. There are a few deluded individuals who imagine that the Empire still lives, but the only power left of the Empire is the Tal'Shiar, and their goal for decades has been domination of the Empire with their own lording over the rest.
The Empire had its day; that day is over. Those who support the Empire have demonstrated repeatedly that they are not competent or rational enough to be trusted with a plasma pistol.
So you just proved that the Republic is no different than the Empire as D'tan can appoint and remove people at his own will. Thank you maybe now you understand that behind all the smoke and mirrors there isn't much of a difference. What happens when D'Tan flips his wig and goes crazy? What happens when he gets killed? The Republic is super fragile so the answer would be simple, it would fall as quickly as it was formed.
The Tal Shiar made those accusations cause it was there job to protect the Empire from all threats including those with in the Empire. While I don't agree in killing every Romulan who is slightly rebellious, there purpose was to protect the Empire from traitors who wish to sell out *cough cough* D'Tan. All that nimwit is doing is creating a civil war which is what is not needed. The time is for all Romulans to come together and claim what is ours. Which includes driving out those pesky Feds and Klingons from our space and rebuilding as one.
I believe you are just digging a deeper hole for yourself. So because there is no canon reference of the Tal Diann you just decide to make it up as you go? I guess you truly don't know Romulan culture and ways and have failed to read the Way of Dera novels which are Canon by the way :cool:
The fact that you continue to agrue using flawed logic wreaks of Vulcan on your part. I support the Empire for the most part and I can be trusted with a disruptor pistol :P The Empire is far from dead so quit spitting lies and deceit (although maybe you are a true Romulan in that case lol) as its pretty much common sense that the Star Empire controls a huge portion of Romulan space still, if you would like I can provide a screenshot of the galaxy map in STO for you to see that RR is quite small in comparision.
So you just proved that the Republic is no different than the Empire as D'tan can appoint and remove people at his own will. Thank you maybe now you understand that behind all the smoke and mirrors there isn't much of a difference. What happens when D'Tan flips his wig and goes crazy? What happens when he gets killed? The Republic is super fragile so the answer would be simple, it would fall as quickly as it was formed.
One common practice does not an identity make. In the beginning of any polity, a government is necessary for guidance and establishment; there is no statement that Senators will always be appointed. The difference is that the Romulan Star Empire was not just beginning, but had existed for over a thousand years when Sela took the reins and pushed the reinstatement of dissolute "noble" families to power merely because of her prejudices without regard to their qualifications or loyalty, whereas D'Tan appointed heroes of the Republic who had shown their competence and loyalty. If D'Tan should go crazy, he will be replaced. When he dies, a successor will be chosen. The Republic does not require a strong man to think for its citizens, unlike the slaves of the Empire who have been conditioned to fear independent thought lest they be imprisoned or murdered, or worse.
The Tal Shiar made those accusations cause it was there job to protect the Empire from all threats including those with in the Empire. While I don't agree in killing every Romulan who is slightly rebellious, there purpose was to protect the Empire from traitors who wish to sell out *cough cough* D'Tan. All that nimwit is doing is creating a civil war which is what is not needed. The time is for all Romulans to come together and claim what is ours. Which includes driving out those pesky Feds and Klingons from our space and rebuilding as one.
The Tal'Shiar made those accusations to cover their own behinds after their unprovoked and unjustified attack on Virinat. There is no civil war (although there was more than one under the Empire). Your hysteria over alliance with the Federation and Klingon Empire is irrational.
I believe you are just digging a deeper hole for yourself. So because there is no canon reference of the Tal Diann you just decide to make it up as you go? I guess you truly don't know Romulan culture and ways and have failed to read the Way of Dera novels which are Canon by the way :cool:
The Way of D'Era is a sourcebook for a roleplaying game, not a novel. It is not canon, nor are any novels considered canon in the sense of "hard canon," although many may accept these or those novels as "soft canon." My sources are plainly stated at the end of my discussion of Romulan identity, culture, and history. I did not make it up, but did extensive research. I recommend you do likewise, because you are the one digging a hole for yourself through claims based on ignorance of the sources.
The fact that you continue to agrue using flawed logic wreaks of Vulcan on your part. I support the Empire for the most part and I can be trusted with a disruptor pistol :P The Empire is far from dead so quit spitting lies and deceit (although maybe you are a true Romulan in that case lol) as its pretty much common sense that the Star Empire controls a huge portion of Romulan space still, if you would like I can provide a screenshot of the galaxy map in STO for you to see that RR is quite small in comparision.
There is no flaw in my Logic, whereas I have shown repeated fallacy in claims made by you and other imperialists, and I have spoken only the truth, whereas you have spat lies and deceit (again, didn't I say something about "projection" rather recently?). Of course the STO galaxy map shows only "Romulan" territory, not specific to "Empire" or "Republic."
One common practice does not an identity make. In the beginning of any polity, a government is necessary for guidance and establishment; there is no statement that Senators will always be appointed. The difference is that the Romulan Star Empire was not just beginning, but had existed for over a thousand years when Sela took the reins and pushed the reinstatement of dissolute "noble" families to power merely because of her prejudices without regard to their qualifications or loyalty, whereas D'Tan appointed heroes of the Republic who had shown their competence and loyalty. If D'Tan should go crazy, he will be replaced. When he dies, a successor will be chosen. The Republic does not require a strong man to think for its citizens, unlike the slaves of the Empire who have been conditioned to fear independent thought lest they be imprisoned or murdered, or worse.
The Tal'Shiar made those accusations to cover their own behinds after their unprovoked and unjustified attack on Virinat. There is no civil war (although there was more than one under the Empire). Your hysteria over alliance with the Federation and Klingon Empire is irrational.
The Way of D'Era is a sourcebook for a roleplaying game, not a novel. It is not canon, nor are any novels considered canon in the sense of "hard canon," although many may accept these or those novels as "soft canon." My sources are plainly stated at the end of my discussion of Romulan identity, culture, and history. I did not make it up, but did extensive research. I recommend you do likewise, because you are the one digging a hole for yourself through claims based on ignorance of the sources.
There is no flaw in my Logic, whereas I have shown repeated fallacy in claims made by you and other imperialists, and I have spoken only the truth, whereas you have spat lies and deceit (again, didn't I say something about "projection" rather recently?). Of course the STO galaxy map shows only "Romulan" territory, not specific to "Empire" or "Republic."
At some point ill get you the shovel to dig yourself out of that hole you put yourself in :P Now you really not making sense. The Rihannsu way and Way of D'era are the closest thing to content, government, history, military info, etc (soft canon) for most Romulan groups. Obviously your researched is flawed and therefore made of up nonsense as before you said the Tal Diann had lots of info, then you said that there is nothing cannon so by your statement alone saying you did lots of research then you should then know there is nothing to be researched. At some point you can give up and realize that most people prefer the Star Empire set of Romulans that we are accustomed to over the hippy Romulans that are of the Republic. Unlike you I do not force my opinions or philosophies on other groups as I have noticed your posts around here. Everyone is entitled to there opinions but do not state false information or make things up.
If you wish to meet in deep space and allow me to show you the true error of your ways in PvP I would be happy to show you the true power of the Imperial Fleet and allow you to see that the Empire is definetly alive and well
At some point ill get you the shovel to dig yourself out of that hole you put yourself in :P Now you really not making sense. The Rihannsu way and Way of D'era are the closest thing to content, government, history, military info, etc (soft canon) for most Romulan groups. Obviously your researched is flawed and therefore made of up nonsense as before you said the Tal Diann had lots of info, then you said that there is nothing cannon so by your statement alone saying you did lots of research then you should then know there is nothing to be researched. At some point you can give up and realize that most people prefer the Star Empire set of Romulans that we are accustomed to over the hippy Romulans that are of the Republic. Unlike you I do not force my opinions or philosophies on other groups as I have noticed your posts around here. Everyone is entitled to there opinions but do not state false information or make things up.
If you wish to meet in deep space and allow me to show you the true error of your ways in PvP I would be happy to show you the true power of the Imperial Fleet and allow you to see that the Empire is definetly alive and well
Oh, and yeah, Argumentum ad Baculum, too. Goodness. Truth is not determined by force, but if it were, the clear victors would already be those in the Republic, who have defeated every effort of the Tal'Shiar and their delusional followers to conquer and enslave our people.
I've shown your fallacies and errors repeatedly, and yet you keep coming back for more. You keep spouting the Big Lie in the hope that repetition will bring acceptance. It will not. The people of the Republic are not that stupid.
Novels and RPG supplements have, sadly, never EVER been listed as canon, yet they are all we have to go on.
Seriously tho... the old Empire is dead people... rudderless, corrupt, half glues to what is left of the Tal Shiar. End its suffering already. The Republic is a comical farce pretending to be a government while selling our blood to others. Seriously, how many "alliances" require you to fly your warbird, and risk your crew for your "ally" in their space to deal with their internal issues? Oh and while you do that, you're constantly referred to as a member of your "ally's" faction.... lolwut?
Cast off both and let us give rise to the Raptor Empire, neither wholly built upon the failures of either the old Star Empire nor the Republic, but learning from these mistakes and building something solid for us to build upon.
side note... is it too much to ask those that want to try and snipe with protogoth to please spend and extra minute or two to clean up your posts and make sure you're spelling is correct and you are using the correct words? Even Im about ready to go grammar and spelling TRIBBLE.....
Oh, and yeah, Argumentum ad Baculum, too. Goodness. Truth is not determined by force, but if it were, the clear victors would already be those in the Republic, who have defeated every effort of the Tal'Shiar and their delusional followers to conquer and enslave our people.
I've shown your fallacies and errors repeatedly, and yet you keep coming back for more. You keep spouting the Big Lie in the hope that repetition will bring acceptance. It will not. The people of the Republic are not that stupid.
*Yells for Protogoth* Where have you gone to? *Looks around and sees nothing but hears a faint sound underneath the ground* Looks like you buried yourself in links and propaganda that is unrelavent and deceitful. Tssk tssk guess ill grab a shovel and start digging you out. :P
*Yells for Protogoth* Where have you gone to? *Looks around and sees nothing but hears a faint sound underneath the ground* Looks like you buried yourself in links and propaganda that is unrelavent and deceitful. Tssk tssk guess ill grab a shovel and start digging you out. :P
Really?
The Star Empire was good. Key word: WAS.
Now it's as good as dead, and the remains are being cannibalized by the Tal Shiar who have gone off the deep end.
Now it's as good as dead, and the remains are being cannibalized by the Tal Shiar who have gone off the deep end.
couldnt have put it better myself.
The Empire is dead, Long Live the Republic, or infact which ever side pays me the best, tho remnants of the empire can eat my plasma torps for all i care.
Personally i couldnt care for all the politics, aslong as they run the Republic right then they will be fine, if not, well disruptors dont have a stun setting, so a replacement will be found.
Jorhana Kreig: KDF, Tal'is: Romulan Fed, Shona'a: Romulan KDF, Johan Paul Kreig: Fed
Appointed by who!? They are terrorist and will be executed as such for crimes against the Empire...
The difference between a terrorist and a revolutionist is terrorists attack and kill civilians. Last time I looked, that was the Tal'Shiar/Empire specialty.
I'm kind of glad I stopped watching this thread for a while because DANG this has gotten out of hand, I mean wow where did all the voices of reason go? I've seen Klingon bars at closing with nicer conversations going on. Protogoth trying to bully their way to a conclusion, while others are trying to argue in character where Protogoth excels.
So leaving out soft canon the Romulans are kind of mean guys but in a much more pragmatic way than the Cardassians and not just the Tal Shiar (a homage to the Tal Shaya martial art by the writers not Intelligence) but all of the RSE, it is just that they are the best at it. They are not goatee stroking villains like the "bad Romulans" in the game though (ironic due to the lack of in game goatees for them) Three examples: the Commander from the Chase and the science ship Commander from the Voyager episode with the wormhole and Jarok.
Finally speaking Romulan doesn't make you an expert on Romulans so don't try to overawe us with it.
Maybe I've been spending too much time among our Vulcan cousins, but I see no logic in a return to the old ways.
When a methodology has been revealed as faulty, it should be abandoned. Lies and treachery, schemes in the shadows; these are the behaviours that brought our race to its knees. Shinzon and Tal'Aura shattered the empire, left it weak and disunited when our people most needed a strong leadership. Hobus. Our own leaders made a subspace bomb out of a star and turned it on us. Did this make us strong? We have been refugees for years because of the old ways. Now that we are building a new home, why would we return to the ideals that destroyed our old home?
The Tal Shiar ally themselves with the Iconians in the hopes of picking at the crumbs that fall from the master's table - they sell the Romulan people as slaves to these masters, or pervert their minds... make them do terrible things... twist them up so tight that worlds blur together and beloved allies become hated foes and you.......
Whatever they once were, the Tal Shiar are slaves to a foreign power, and they intend to see us all enslaved with them. I refuse to be a slave to anyone.
To continue with the old ways, to embrace the Tal Shiar, logically, is inconceivable, emotionally, is abhorrent. If we walk that path, we walk to our doom.
Maybe I've been spending too much time among our Vulcan cousins, but I see no logic in a return to the old ways.
When a methodology has been revealed as faulty, it should be abandoned. Lies and treachery, schemes in the shadows; these are the behaviours that brought our race to its knees. Shinzon and Tal'Aura shattered the empire, left it weak and disunited when our people most needed a strong leadership. Hobus. Our own leaders made a subspace bomb out of a star and turned it on us. Did this make us strong? We have been refugees for years because of the old ways. Now that we are building a new home, why would we return to the ideals that destroyed our old home?
The Tal Shiar ally themselves with the Iconians in the hopes of picking at the crumbs that fall from the master's table - they sell the Romulan people as slaves to these masters, or pervert their minds... make them do terrible things... twist them up so tight that worlds blur together and beloved allies become hated foes and you.......
Whatever they once were, the Tal Shiar are slaves to a foreign power, and they intend to see us all enslaved with them. I refuse to be a slave to anyone.
To continue with the old ways, to embrace the Tal Shiar, logically, is inconceivable, emotionally, is abhorrent. If we walk that path, we walk to our doom.
Basically, I agree with this as well. There are some elements of the old ways that should be preserved, but we (speaking as my Romulan toon) need to ditch the Tal Shiar and the skulking underhanded tactics of the past that typically failed and even led to the destruction of the homeworld. I support the Republic. I'm not opposed to a monarchy though. A constitutional monarchy with a senate based on either New Romulus or Rator would be best.
Comments
The Tal Shiar fed members of the Declared and Remans as well to the Elachi.
Yet their proponents here stated, "Oh no. Those weren't loyal citizens of the Star Empire. So they don't count."
The Tal Shiar blew up their own homeworld in a blind quest for power, yet their proponents here state it is the Republic which is committing acts of terrorism.
The Tal Shiar again and again align themselves with outside powers and connive against the best interest of their own people. Yet their mouthpieces here say it is the Empire and the Federation who are oppressing the Rihannsu and Reman peoples.
The Tal Shiar have no honor. In either deed or words. In either heart or mind. Their vision of a resurrected Star Empire requires all Rihannsu and Reman to serve them.
While they, in turn, serve others. As their highly willing and oh-so-cooperative slaves.
How is this better than the Republic's alliance with the Empire and the Federation?
Neither the KDF or Starfleet is busy deciding who is and who is not Rihannsu.
Neither the KDF or Starfleet has blown up their homeworld.
How does the resurrection of the Star Empire under the hand of the Tal Shiar and the guidance their owners, who are not Rihannsu, make things better for the Rihannsu and the Reman? Will it restore their honor? Will it make their House grow strong and prosper? Will others then view them as people who understand honor and are to be treated with as such?
Or will the Tal Shair yet again make the word, "Rihannsu" a dishonorable curse word all throughout the Alpha and Beta Quadrants?
D'Tan and Obisek may be mad fools to try what they are doing. Yet they are free to choose for themselves. They are not puppets dancing on strings which others pull. They have chosen to make a place for all Rihannsu and Reman in the sunlight. And they would accept even those who oppose them without reservation.
Enough talk! Bring your blade to Mol' Rihan four days hence! If you win, you'll have your way.
When you lose, you'll try to scurry back to your shadows. But this time, they will provide you no respite. I hereby declare my blade, my House, and my honor to be in blood feud with the Tal Shiar and any who would support them.
Meh, got to stop bullying me with this already. Only English allowed on this forum.
[Combat (Self)] You lose 6549 (7572) Cold from the torment of the underworld.
In-game handle @Janetza
A translation is readily available, if you look for it (in fact, I provided the entire thing with its translation before I even posted it here; the effort needed to decipher the message is minimal). The comment was not addressed to you, however. It merely used your post as an example of what I was talking about. And when I do speak to you in Aenglish, you cover your eyes and plug your ears in order to continue singing the praises of slavery and oppression, so what would be the point?
Do you even realize the factual inaccuracies in the post I quoted? You claimed that the Hobus supernova was an accident. It wasn't. Hakeev may well have been too stupid to know what was going to be the result, but those behind the plan certainly knew what it would do. You claimed that the Elachi only consumed "non-Romulans," when that is patently false, and when called on it, you attempted to cover your mistake by redefining "Romulan" in such a way as to make the term equivalent to "slaves." You dismissed freedom as meaningless and useless, yet freedom was the motivation for Romulans even becoming Romulans in the first place, else they would have simply submitted to the dictates of the establishment on Vulcan and surrendered sovereignty over their own hearts and minds to a false orthodoxy. You think a true leader will bring prosperity; the Romulan Star Empire's leaders over the last 70 years or so have brought destruction and famine and poverty, whereas D'Tan has led us to a new homeworld rich in resources. You speak of working to make the Empire better, but the Empire no longer exists except in the misguided minds of those who were brainwashed into becoming stooges for Hakeev, and a few inept individuals who are incapable of facing reality but would rather look back on some past that never was through the veil of the rose-colored glasses of nostalgia. You "doubt" that the territory of the Republic was ever part of the territory of the Empire, but that is rather simply dismissed by reference to the map of the galaxy from before the rediscovery of ch'Mol'Rihan. And all along, you would have us forget what was done to Virinat and Crateris and the colonists of those worlds, as if those were somehow innocent mistakes without consequences, or even irrelevant acts. If your transparent propaganda is representative of what the Empire has to offer, why would anyone ever again look favorably on the Empire?
Do you wish to know what I said in Rihan? Do you see the link in my signature? Can you click it and explore till you find the page with frequently-used phrases and then use the Find feature on your browser to locate the exact message with its translation? Everything I have said in Rihan on this forum can be found there, with translations into Aenglish.
Tal Shiar deeds are not representing the empire. You all got to stop blaming us about their actions. Empire has no any evil hive mind, it is a structure and symbol, which are being represented by it's people. Tal Shiar, Hakeev and Sela especially, is not what empire is.
Tau Deva was part of imperial space indeed, I forgot about that.
Crateris? lol It is new reman homeworld, which Empire gave them without asking anything in return actually. If something happens to remans it is not our problem.
As I have said before, Empire shall live until there shall be those who have faith in it.
[Combat (Self)] You lose 6549 (7572) Cold from the torment of the underworld.
In-game handle @Janetza
The Tal'Shiar is all that remains of the Empire; face the music. You point to Hakeev and Sela as if they were somehow exceptional, yet Taris ordered a blockade of a Romulan colony world affected by an epidemic when medicine would have taken care of the issue, and thereby was responsible for the deaths of thousands. When those people sought to rebel, her response was to order Tebok to use military force to put down the rebellion. This is typical of what the Romulan Star Empire became, and it is no isolated incident. Empire is not a representative government, but rather is the imposition of the foibles and whims of a false nobility upon the people. As time goes on, empires become more and more corrupt and decadent. This pattern has been observed over and over again throughout the history of many species.
Out of your own mouth you condemn yourself as having no concern for the people of the Empire whom you claim the Empire represents. Not only did the Empire have a responsibility to the Remans of Crateris, but they blatantly violated that by attacking them without cause. "No, that was the Tal'Shiar, not the Empire." When will you get the message that the Tal'Shiar did not act independently of the Empire, and that it is now all that remains of the Empire? And what of Virinat? You ignore that because the people there were Romulans and therefore cannot be dismissed in the same way you so cavalierly dismissed the Remans of Crateris, and hoping that we won't notice that you failed to address that crime of the Empire at all?
Only in their minds. The Empire is now nothing but space dust and a scattered and fragmented secret police force. It's time to move on. The first opportunity for Romulans to be Romulans, for Remans to be Remans, in centuries, and you would toss it aside to return to the cycle of abuse? If you are representative of those who have faith in the Empire, you are waging a very poor public relations campaign filled with lies, half-truths, explicit racism, blatant anti-intellectualism, and self-referential incoherence. Verily, you deserve to be a subject of the Empire.
Will it happen with this new Republic as well? Likely so. But I intend to enjoy our newly rediscovered liberty while we may, and to defend it vigorously.
--khre'Riov T'Surial t'Riuurren
--Red Annorax
Sry protogoth, but you are pushing your one sided point of view as a verity. I'm afraid those debates, Republic against Star Empire, have no resolution as both sides shall refuse to accept arguments of each other. As I have offered before, Empire ought to get rid of Tau Deva and let those departed to live their own life, so Empire would be able to move on to more relevant stuff.
Also, I would like to remind all of you who likes the Republic, that it is all about reunification with Vulcan and none of you can be called rihannsu, as you are complete opposite.
[Combat (Self)] You lose 6549 (7572) Cold from the torment of the underworld.
In-game handle @Janetza
I think Protogoth has been sipping the ale too much over there if you think the senate and praetor were elected if so then I missed that storeline were D'Tan won that vote :P
You fly the Tal Diann name but you do realize that the Tal Diann adopted many ideas and policies from the Tal Shiar correct? Only difference was the Tal Diann was governed by the military were as the Tal Shiar were not. Might want to read up on that information :cool:
The Empire lives on and will always live on in the STO universe and beyond. Judging by the final cut scene involving the Tal Shiar and D'Tan I am willing to bet my bottle of ale that things will work themselves out for both parties. Really D'Tan is a horrible leader and wants all Romulans to be cool and collective while the KDF and FED's have there way with what little is left of the Romulan people. In the end the Empire stands corrected to force them out and while I don't agree with the Tal Shiar in anyway, shape or form with the top command all gone now is the time for everyone to work togeather and rebuild the Empire to its former glory. Plus we all know Donatra will be back and put an end to this foolishness of D'tans anyway and put the Tal Shiar in its place, a rescue mission that has slightly been confirmed by a member in the IRF who attended a dev panel said that we haven't seen the last of Donatra so I guess we will see...
Denialism
Negationism
Willful Ignorance
Anti-intellectualism
Straw Man
The Big Lie in Propaganda
This debate is not a matter of conflicting opinions or interpretations. It is a matter of blatant falsehood and historical fact. Your opinion, like your preference, is not better than historical fact. Your efforts to say otherwise are what make you anti-intellectual (although your refusal to even attempt to learn the basics of Rihan says something along those lines as well).
The Big Lie you have repeated more than once is the Straw Man characterization of what Reunification is, but it's not the only Big Lie you've posted. Your attempt to blow smoke up everyone's butt is a failure.
So what's next? Playing the victim? Projection? Even more outrageous examples of the Big Lie? Or will you finally concede?
D'Tan is not the Praetor. He is the Proconsul. The entire structure of government is different now. Trying to force it into the mold of what was is a mistake. ((And do you really expect a vote to be taken from players of Romulan character players?))
Seeing as the Tal'Diann predates the Tal'Shiar, the more likely direction of "borrowing" goes in the opposite direction. You might want to read up on that.
You might also want to review that recording again ((and finish the Rep so you can do all the missions you get from it, including the Mountain Pass instance in which Hakeev's chosen successor, Commander Ruul, is captured)). On what basis do you contend that D'Tan is "a horrible leader"? The charge by itself (without any supporting arguments) is nothing but ad Hominem. The Romulan Republic is allied with the Federation and the Klingon Empire; it is not subservient to them. Propaganda efforts to promote the contrary view have been rife, but they are as transparent as the failures of those who blatantly spew lies in their efforts to promote a dead polity. Donatra was assimilated. Liberating her would be a good thing, but trusting her to lead the Romulan people with Borg tech remaining in her body (it cannot all be removed) would be foolhardy.
A government made up of self claimed leaders I suppose if that's what your in to. At least in the Empire senators were elected to represent the noble houses.
The Tal Diann science division predates the Tal Shiar but not the Tal Diann Intelligence division which wasn't formed till the Tal Shiar came about. They were nothing but scientist till the Tal Shiar came along and they reformed and added the Intelligence branch using Tal Shiar policies and procedures in there methods. This is hinted at in the "Way of Dera" novel. Your only contradicting yourself even more. The Tal Diann serves within the Imperial Romulan Fleet which serves the Empire.
D'tan is nothing more than a carebear who wants so called unification and peace which is going to hurt the Romulan people once the KDF and FEDs have there way. He will sell out to have his so called peace, hell might as well fly the kdf or fed flag. It makes little difference, the Star Empire controls most of Romulan space while D'Tan controls only a small portion. Truth be told if the Empire wanted him dead it would have happened already, the fact that the Tal Shiar can beam into his office and have a chat (as seen in the Rep Mission) is living proof that they could kill him without breaking a sweat.
Hell none of the story makes sense really, you got RR claiming they want peace and independence yet they run around in scimitars. You got the TS running around just killing everything in sight. You got the feds and kdf fighting over the Dyson area which is supposed to be in Romulan space. Might as well just call it a Mexican standoff haha :P
Nobody said the Senators were self-proclaimed. They were appointed for services to the Republic.
The Tal'Diann existed as an Internal Affairs Division and as Military Intelligence LONG before the Tal'Shiar came into existence. I contradict myself? Didn't I say something about "projection" just a couple of posts ago? The Tal'Diann is not part of the Imperial Romulan Fleet, but is an independent fleet within the Star Navy. Indeed, the hru'Phi'Tlarum is equal to every other member of the Star Command, and in imperial times, answered only to the Praetor or Emperor/Empress. Now the hru'Phi'Tlarum answers only to D'Tan. I should know; I am the hru'Phi'Tlarum.
D'Tan's belief in Reunification is not a policy he pushes on the Republic. This is another example of the Straw Man and Big Lie which imperialists have spouted for months. Carebear? A man who stood against the Tal'Shiar and the Empire, formed a resistance movement, presided over multiple missions involving military action? How many more obvious lies are you going to attempt? The Empire is dead. Dead. It controls nothing. The only vestige of the Empire is the Tal'Shiar, who are scattered and fragmented. They are only an annoyance now. As for one of their operatives beaming into D'Tan's office, that happened once; security measures have been put in place since then to prevent unauthorized beam-ins by anyone. ((And seriously, that is a cutscene from a single mission; there are five tiers in the New Romulan Reputation. I suggest you earn them and do the missions that come from them before you continue to make untenable claims.))
I am not learning rihan because there is no good source for it and I have plenty of things to learn irl because I study.
You are the most brainwashed here. You shall refuse any opinion which is different from yours.
You say your republic has freedom, while you refuse mine and of anyone who is in Empire.
Even me, with all my denialism and anti- intellectualism, I have heard opposing arguments regarding the Tal Shiar and agreed that not all of its actions are correct.
Also, I see only republicans here are the ones who threatening with war and brute force. As teh storyline shows those are terrorists and renegades.
Whole republican senate is self-proclaimed as none gave them power to form it in the first place.
[Combat (Self)] You lose 6549 (7572) Cold from the torment of the underworld.
In-game handle @Janetza
Appointed by who!? They are terrorist and will be executed as such for crimes against the Empire if any true Romulan had there way with the storyline. They had no authority to form a government from anyone as another posted had mentioned. Those who rebel against there own countrymen and government are traitors and terrorist. D'Tan should have rose to power in the Empire and make change from the inside.
I think you are very mistaken and should reread your sources again and if you can find actual CANON proof that the Tal Diann Intelligence branch existed before the Tal Diann then maybe ill give you some piece of credit.
So you telling me that at no point in my leveling experience he doesn't rant and rave about unification? Security measures in place pfft what did you pull that from someone's foundry mission lol As others have mentioned you are simply one sided and are making things up as you go. The Empire controls almost 90% of Romulan space, the Republic only controls one sector area, so I have no idea what your talking about the Empire being dead. Maybe in your eyes it is dead but to many TRUE Romulans the Empire will live forever as long as there are those who believe. Maybe you think I am talking about the Tal Shiar which I am not, I am simply referrering to the Empire as a whole and the systems which comprise it.
Again, the link in my signature will lead you to resources for learning Rihan.
What you have failed to grasp is that not everything is opinion. There is historical fact, and there is historical revisionism. The former is not opinion; the latter is an attempt at deception.
The storyline shows the exact opposite of the Tal'Shiar claim that the Republic is a gang of terrorists; the evidence presented by a Tal'Shiar stooge was contradicted by the information in the computers of a Tal'Shiar listening post, and she, like you, continued to insist that the lie was truth.
The Senate of the Republic was appointed by D'Tan; this is hardly a new thing in Romulan history, seeing as Sela dismissed and appointed Senators to suit her own prejudices (and she was not the first to do this).
Appointed by the legitimate head of government for the Republic. You claim that Senators were elected in the Star Empire; that was manifestly not always the case. Sela was not the only head of state in the Romulan Star Empire to remove Senators and appoint Senators. She may well have been the first to declare that the Senate would serve at her pleasure, however.
The charge of terrorism was disproved by data from the Tal'Shiar who first made the accusation; now you resurrect it in order to justify your empty threats of execution. Traitors and terrorists for standing up to the tyranny of the Empire, and daring to affirm the principle of self-determination for which our ancestors left Vulcan? Again, my people, do we have to see any more from these imperialists before they are recognized for the delusional bullies they are? Is this what a member of my family would support, Symakhos?
No, I am not mistaken. ((And you know very well that there is no canonical source which even mentions the Tal'Diann, nor is there any canonical source which gives a date for the founding of the Tal'Shiar. I did my research, rather thoroughly, having spent over 2 weeks just wrestling with all the continuity issues, and you would know that I know what I'm talking about if you would but review the history of this forum, or bother to read my discussion on Romulan identity, culture, and history.))
I've never observed D'Tan to do more than speak of Reunification briefly and in passing. If a mere mention constitutes ranting and raving to you, then perhaps I could recommend a tea made from this lovely lavender flower to soothe your obviously overly-excitable nature. Security measures, as would only be logical -- although I suppose any logic would be lost on those who swallow a camel but strain out a gnat, especially as they do not understand the difference between the academic discipline of Logic and the Religious Worldview founded by Surak and mistranslated into Aenglish as "Logic." The Empire is nothing but the Tal'Shiar now, and the Tal'Shiar are broken and scattered without a head. While their cells are spread throughout the territory you speak of, they are not in control of it; a single strike force could wipe them out, were they not hiding in fear. There are a few deluded individuals who imagine that the Empire still lives, but the only power left of the Empire is the Tal'Shiar, and their goal for decades has been domination of the Empire with their own lording over the rest.
The Empire had its day; that day is over. Those who support the Empire have demonstrated repeatedly that they are not competent or rational enough to be trusted with a plasma pistol.
So you just proved that the Republic is no different than the Empire as D'tan can appoint and remove people at his own will. Thank you maybe now you understand that behind all the smoke and mirrors there isn't much of a difference. What happens when D'Tan flips his wig and goes crazy? What happens when he gets killed? The Republic is super fragile so the answer would be simple, it would fall as quickly as it was formed.
The Tal Shiar made those accusations cause it was there job to protect the Empire from all threats including those with in the Empire. While I don't agree in killing every Romulan who is slightly rebellious, there purpose was to protect the Empire from traitors who wish to sell out *cough cough* D'Tan. All that nimwit is doing is creating a civil war which is what is not needed. The time is for all Romulans to come together and claim what is ours. Which includes driving out those pesky Feds and Klingons from our space and rebuilding as one.
I believe you are just digging a deeper hole for yourself. So because there is no canon reference of the Tal Diann you just decide to make it up as you go? I guess you truly don't know Romulan culture and ways and have failed to read the Way of Dera novels which are Canon by the way :cool:
The fact that you continue to agrue using flawed logic wreaks of Vulcan on your part. I support the Empire for the most part and I can be trusted with a disruptor pistol :P The Empire is far from dead so quit spitting lies and deceit (although maybe you are a true Romulan in that case lol) as its pretty much common sense that the Star Empire controls a huge portion of Romulan space still, if you would like I can provide a screenshot of the galaxy map in STO for you to see that RR is quite small in comparision.
One common practice does not an identity make. In the beginning of any polity, a government is necessary for guidance and establishment; there is no statement that Senators will always be appointed. The difference is that the Romulan Star Empire was not just beginning, but had existed for over a thousand years when Sela took the reins and pushed the reinstatement of dissolute "noble" families to power merely because of her prejudices without regard to their qualifications or loyalty, whereas D'Tan appointed heroes of the Republic who had shown their competence and loyalty. If D'Tan should go crazy, he will be replaced. When he dies, a successor will be chosen. The Republic does not require a strong man to think for its citizens, unlike the slaves of the Empire who have been conditioned to fear independent thought lest they be imprisoned or murdered, or worse.
The Tal'Shiar made those accusations to cover their own behinds after their unprovoked and unjustified attack on Virinat. There is no civil war (although there was more than one under the Empire). Your hysteria over alliance with the Federation and Klingon Empire is irrational.
The Way of D'Era is a sourcebook for a roleplaying game, not a novel. It is not canon, nor are any novels considered canon in the sense of "hard canon," although many may accept these or those novels as "soft canon." My sources are plainly stated at the end of my discussion of Romulan identity, culture, and history. I did not make it up, but did extensive research. I recommend you do likewise, because you are the one digging a hole for yourself through claims based on ignorance of the sources.
There is no flaw in my Logic, whereas I have shown repeated fallacy in claims made by you and other imperialists, and I have spoken only the truth, whereas you have spat lies and deceit (again, didn't I say something about "projection" rather recently?). Of course the STO galaxy map shows only "Romulan" territory, not specific to "Empire" or "Republic."
Lets settle this in kerrat, All you Empire loving fools can find me there. R.R.W. Raptor star.
At some point ill get you the shovel to dig yourself out of that hole you put yourself in :P Now you really not making sense. The Rihannsu way and Way of D'era are the closest thing to content, government, history, military info, etc (soft canon) for most Romulan groups. Obviously your researched is flawed and therefore made of up nonsense as before you said the Tal Diann had lots of info, then you said that there is nothing cannon so by your statement alone saying you did lots of research then you should then know there is nothing to be researched. At some point you can give up and realize that most people prefer the Star Empire set of Romulans that we are accustomed to over the hippy Romulans that are of the Republic. Unlike you I do not force my opinions or philosophies on other groups as I have noticed your posts around here. Everyone is entitled to there opinions but do not state false information or make things up.
If you wish to meet in deep space and allow me to show you the true error of your ways in PvP I would be happy to show you the true power of the Imperial Fleet and allow you to see that the Empire is definetly alive and well
Denialism
Negationism
Willful Ignorance
Anti-intellectualism
Straw Man
The Big Lie in Propaganda
Really.
Oh, and yeah, Argumentum ad Baculum, too. Goodness. Truth is not determined by force, but if it were, the clear victors would already be those in the Republic, who have defeated every effort of the Tal'Shiar and their delusional followers to conquer and enslave our people.
I've shown your fallacies and errors repeatedly, and yet you keep coming back for more. You keep spouting the Big Lie in the hope that repetition will bring acceptance. It will not. The people of the Republic are not that stupid.
Seriously tho... the old Empire is dead people... rudderless, corrupt, half glues to what is left of the Tal Shiar. End its suffering already. The Republic is a comical farce pretending to be a government while selling our blood to others. Seriously, how many "alliances" require you to fly your warbird, and risk your crew for your "ally" in their space to deal with their internal issues? Oh and while you do that, you're constantly referred to as a member of your "ally's" faction.... lolwut?
Cast off both and let us give rise to the Raptor Empire, neither wholly built upon the failures of either the old Star Empire nor the Republic, but learning from these mistakes and building something solid for us to build upon.
side note... is it too much to ask those that want to try and snipe with protogoth to please spend and extra minute or two to clean up your posts and make sure you're spelling is correct and you are using the correct words? Even Im about ready to go grammar and spelling TRIBBLE.....
*Yells for Protogoth* Where have you gone to? *Looks around and sees nothing but hears a faint sound underneath the ground* Looks like you buried yourself in links and propaganda that is unrelavent and deceitful. Tssk tssk guess ill grab a shovel and start digging you out. :P
The Star Empire was good. Key word: WAS.
Now it's as good as dead, and the remains are being cannibalized by the Tal Shiar who have gone off the deep end.
My character Tsin'xing
couldnt have put it better myself.
The Empire is dead, Long Live the Republic, or infact which ever side pays me the best, tho remnants of the empire can eat my plasma torps for all i care.
Personally i couldnt care for all the politics, aslong as they run the Republic right then they will be fine, if not, well disruptors dont have a stun setting, so a replacement will be found.
The difference between a terrorist and a revolutionist is terrorists attack and kill civilians. Last time I looked, that was the Tal'Shiar/Empire specialty.
Romulan Institute
D'Galan - Engineer
So leaving out soft canon the Romulans are kind of mean guys but in a much more pragmatic way than the Cardassians and not just the Tal Shiar (a homage to the Tal Shaya martial art by the writers not Intelligence) but all of the RSE, it is just that they are the best at it. They are not goatee stroking villains like the "bad Romulans" in the game though (ironic due to the lack of in game goatees for them) Three examples: the Commander from the Chase and the science ship Commander from the Voyager episode with the wormhole and Jarok.
Finally speaking Romulan doesn't make you an expert on Romulans so don't try to overawe us with it.
When a methodology has been revealed as faulty, it should be abandoned. Lies and treachery, schemes in the shadows; these are the behaviours that brought our race to its knees. Shinzon and Tal'Aura shattered the empire, left it weak and disunited when our people most needed a strong leadership. Hobus. Our own leaders made a subspace bomb out of a star and turned it on us. Did this make us strong? We have been refugees for years because of the old ways. Now that we are building a new home, why would we return to the ideals that destroyed our old home?
The Tal Shiar ally themselves with the Iconians in the hopes of picking at the crumbs that fall from the master's table - they sell the Romulan people as slaves to these masters, or pervert their minds... make them do terrible things... twist them up so tight that worlds blur together and beloved allies become hated foes and you.......
Whatever they once were, the Tal Shiar are slaves to a foreign power, and they intend to see us all enslaved with them. I refuse to be a slave to anyone.
To continue with the old ways, to embrace the Tal Shiar, logically, is inconceivable, emotionally, is abhorrent. If we walk that path, we walk to our doom.
Basically, I agree with this as well. There are some elements of the old ways that should be preserved, but we (speaking as my Romulan toon) need to ditch the Tal Shiar and the skulking underhanded tactics of the past that typically failed and even led to the destruction of the homeworld. I support the Republic. I'm not opposed to a monarchy though. A constitutional monarchy with a senate based on either New Romulus or Rator would be best.