Well as for me, i'm firmly on the side of the Republic and the Tal'Diann
D'tan and the Republic Senate may not be perfect, but they're a hell of a lot better than the Tal Shiar, Sela, and the remnants of the RSE.
I can understand the power trip behind playing the villain...but the problem with being a Tal Shiar 'villain' in this game...is they DON'T have the power, they're fractured and scattered.
Why anyone would want to play a desperate, near powerless faction, known for infighting, promotion through assassination, and general toadyism is beyond me.
That's why i'm happy being an intelligence operative with a near limitless budget...but with the morals to not misuse it for nefarious purposes
KDF for Life! Romulan at Heart Fed cause they made me ~ :P
I don't think anyone really wants to play the powerless and moronic Tal Shiar as they are now written. It would be fair to say there's a bit of bitterness on how Cryptic decided to treat the old RSE-style Romulans though.
Cryptic has continuously rewritten the RSE to be more and more cartoonishly evil and stupid, while promoting the Republic as it now is.
Look at what the Romulan situation as Cryptic has developed it:
Prior to New Romulus: No Republic, Obisek's rebels/terrorists are the only resistance movement, and are much darker than current Republic-using thalaron weapons vs civilians, raiding federation space, etc. Tal Shiar is only part of the Romulan armed forces, Sela and Hakeev are not in cahoots, and never share the same screen, much less even have a conversation together. What happens after Sela's abduction is not discussed.
New Romulus: Still no Republic. D'Tan's group are basically a bunch of separatists who are taking advantage of Sela's disappearance to secede. has support of at least some Romulan military elements and D'Tan is courted by the Tal Shiar as a possible replacement for Sela. Still use IRW prefix and RSE uniforms. Obisek gives his support to D'Tan.
Romulan Republic is a huge freedom fighter movement that has existed well before the disappearance of Sela and death of Hakeev. Non Tal Shiar armed forces of the RSE are retconned out, and and Hakeev and Sela are pretty much on the same page right now, with him being her 'right hand man' and his insane iconian/elachii plot setting the agenda for the entire RSE. The RR pretty much supplants the RSE as being 'the' Romulan faction.
Basically the Republic supplanted the RSE pretty much entirely by authorial fiat. The road was completely open for Cryptic to write a Romulan faction if the had wanted to. The only real reference to the Romulans of note post-Sela was 'The Return' which didn't really touch on the subject of the state of the Empire. (but showed that they still had the funds and organization to pursue development of Borg technology) The faction that emerged from the loss of Sela by no means had to be the Republic-and I would expect it to have required far less in the way of retcons and storyline changes.
That's the Romulan faction my loyalty lies with-not the stupid, cartoonish caricature of the Tal Shiar, and not this bizarre Republic that has more in common with the Maquis and the Bajorans than the Romulans-but with the Romulan Star Empire that Cryptic retconned and killed off starting with New Romulus and ending with legacy of Romulus.
I don't think anyone really wants to play the powerless and moronic Tal Shiar as they are now written. It would be fair to say there's a bit of bitterness on how Cryptic decided to treat the old RSE-style Romulans though.
Cryptic has continuously rewritten the RSE to be more and more cartoonishly evil and stupid, while promoting the Republic as it now is.
Look at what the Romulan situation as Cryptic has developed it:
Prior to New Romulus: No Republic, Obisek's rebels/terrorists are the only resistance movement, and are much darker than current Republic-using thalaron weapons vs civilians, raiding federation space, etc. Tal Shiar is only part of the Romulan armed forces, Sela and Hakeev are not in cahoots, and never share the same screen, much less even have a conversation together. What happens after Sela's abduction is not discussed.
New Romulus: Still no Republic. D'Tan's group are basically a bunch of separatists who are taking advantage of Sela's disappearance to secede. has support of at least some Romulan military elements and D'Tan is courted by the Tal Shiar as a possible replacement for Sela. Still use IRW prefix and RSE uniforms. Obisek gives his support to D'Tan.
Romulan Republic is a huge freedom fighter movement that has existed well before the disappearance of Sela and death of Hakeev. Non Tal Shiar armed forces of the RSE are retconned out, and and Hakeev and Sela are pretty much on the same page right now, with him being her 'right hand man' and his insane iconian/elachii plot setting the agenda for the entire RSE. The RR pretty much supplants the RSE as being 'the' Romulan faction.
Basically the Republic supplanted the RSE pretty much entirely by authorial fiat. The road was completely open for Cryptic to write a Romulan faction if the had wanted to. The only real reference to the Romulans of note post-Sela was 'The Return' which didn't really touch on the subject of the state of the Empire. (but showed that they still had the funds and organization to pursue development of Borg technology) The faction that emerged from the loss of Sela by no means had to be the Republic-and I would expect it to have required far less in the way of retcons and storyline changes.
That's the Romulan faction my loyalty lies with-not the stupid, cartoonish caricature of the Tal Shiar, and not this bizarre Republic that has more in common with the Maquis and the Bajorans than the Romulans-but with the Romulan Star Empire that Cryptic retconned and killed off starting with New Romulus and ending with legacy of Romulus.
First of all, the "old RSE-style Romulans" were in TOS. Something changed between TOS and TNG, and that was the formation of the Tal'Shiar.
Second, the Tal'Shiar is not and never was a part of the Romulan armed forces; they are explicitly stated by numerous sources to be a civilian intelligence agency and secret police; they were an agency of the Romulan Star Empire's government, never affiliated with the Romulan Star Navy, which opposed them frequently.
Third, Sela and Hakeev share the screen in more than one mission, or did you not do the "Mind Games" mission (she seems pretty cozy with Hakeev in this) or the "Cutting the Cord" mission (in which she finally -- finally -- cuts ties with Hakeev, even having a conversation with him to inform him of this decision, but just a bit too late for it to matter), or did you just skip the cut scenes in those missions? What happens after Sela's "abduction" happens after Hakeev is dead/captured (depending on the player's action), and is therefore irrelevant to her relationship with Hakeev.
Fourth, denying that the Republic is a Republic doesn't make it not a Republic; D'Tan was elected and there is a Senate. Even the STO Wiki states that the government of the Republic is "democratic."
Fifth, the RSE (and specifically, the Tal'Shiar) was already experimenting with, and making use of, Borg tech before Sela was carried away by the Iconians (which, by the way, ought to be mentioned in every discussion in which the Republic is condemned for trying to make use of Iconian tech).
First of all, the "old RSE-style Romulans" were in TOS. Something changed between TOS and TNG, and that was the formation of the Tal'Shiar.
Second, the Tal'Shiar is not and never was a part of the Romulan armed forces; they are explicitly stated by numerous sources to be a civilian intelligence agency and secret police; they were an agency of the Romulan Star Empire's government, never affiliated with the Romulan Star Navy, which opposed them frequently.
Third, Sela and Hakeev share the screen in more than one mission, or did you not do the "Mind Games" mission (she seems pretty cozy with Hakeev in this) or the "Cutting the Cord" mission (in which she finally -- finally -- cuts ties with Hakeev, even having a conversation with him to inform him of this decision, but just a bit too late for it to matter), or did you just skip the cut scenes in those missions? What happens after Sela's "abduction" happens after Hakeev is dead/captured (depending on the player's action), and is therefore irrelevant to her relationship with Hakeev.
Fourth, denying that the Republic is a Republic doesn't make it not a Republic; D'Tan was elected and there is a Senate. Even the STO Wiki states that the government of the Republic is "democratic."
Fifth, the RSE (and specifically, the Tal'Shiar) was already experimenting with, and making use of, Borg tech before Sela was carried away by the Iconians (which, by the way, ought to be mentioned in every discussion in which the Republic is condemned for trying to make use of Iconian tech).
Enterprise has you beat there. The Romulans there were TNG-style as well. They had the option with going with cornball pink/purple pajamas clad ROman knockoffs and declined. Can only imagine why.
As much as you like to bring up book evidence of the Tal Shiar being relatively new, newer material supersedes and retcons the Tal Shiar to predating the Federation.
The Tal Shiar possesses its own ships and infantry. They are part of the armed forced of the RSE even if they operate outside the structure of the Navy. Her backstory that Cryptic wrote for her indicates that she hates the Tal Shiar, which made it all the more bizarre when LOR came around and Hakeev was suddenly her right hand and she allowed the non-tal Shar military to be disbanded.
I was talking about pre-legacy of Romulus, where Hakeev and Sela never talk to each other. Mind games is LOR material, and the old Cutting the Cord Mission had her warping in in response to the KDF/FED player invading a Romulan planet.
I didn't deny that the Republic was a Republic, only pointed out that it was never called the Republic prior to LoR, and in fact, did not exist at all prior to New Romulus.
So? I never said they weren't experimenting with Borg tech prior...there's a episode or two that deal with it prior to 'The Return' even before LOR...though I always found the Federation's position on the Rommies having borg tech to be more than a bit hypocritical considering Voyager, the Delta flyer, and Omega Force.
Enterprise has you beat there. The Romulans there were TNG-style as well. They had the option with going with cornball pink/purple pajamas clad ROman knockoffs and declined. Can only imagine why.
As much as you like to bring up book evidence of the Tal Shiar being relatively new, newer material supersedes and retcons the Tal Shiar to predating the Federation.
The Tal Shiar possesses its own ships and infantry. They are part of the armed forced of the RSE even if they operate outside the structure of the Navy. Her backstory that Cryptic wrote for her indicates that she hates the Tal Shiar, which made it all the more bizarre when LOR came around and Hakeev was suddenly her right hand and she allowed the non-tal Shar military to be disbanded.
I was talking about pre-legacy of Romulus, where Hakeev and Sela never talk to each other. Mind games is LOR material, and the old Cutting the Cord Mission had her warping in in response to the KDF/FED player invading a Romulan planet.
I didn't deny that the Republic was a Republic, only pointed out that it was never called the Republic prior to LoR, and in fact, did not exist at all prior to New Romulus.
So? I never said they weren't experimenting with Borg tech prior...there's a episode or two that deal with it prior to 'The Return' even before LOR...though I always found the Federation's position on the Rommies having borg tech to be more than a bit hypocritical considering Voyager, the Delta flyer, and Omega Force.
I don't know where you got this pink/purple pajama thing, but that's not what the TOS Romulans wore.
The Romulans in TOS were aggressive and tricky, sure; that's not a matter of dispute. What is the matter disputed is the fascist bully-boy nature which characterized most Romulans in TNG and all the later series (although ENT doesn't really do that).
I have yet to see any date for the formation of the Tal'Shiar other than the one I have stated repeatedly. I've stated the source explicitly. You have vaguely referred to "newer material" without any specifics. State the source(s) or give it a rest.
The Tal'Shiar has its own fleet, yes. It is still not a military organization, and is explicitly stated to be civilian and not military.
I don't recall having encountered Hakeev before LoR (although I may have forgotten, since my Vulcan and Orion were already at the level cap for quite some time prior to the release of LoR). Furthermore, he's not mentioned anywhere in the Path to 2409.
When the player first encounters Temer in the Virinat system (which, oh my, is prior to the rediscovery of New Romulus), he identifies himself as a part of "the Romulan Republic." Several additional references to "the Romulan Republic" are made prior to the rediscovery of New Romulus.
And attacks by supporters of the Empire against the Republic for experimenting with Iconian tech while the RSE experimented with Borg tech are not equally hypocritical? :rolleyes:
I don't know where you got this pink/purple pajama thing, but that's not what the TOS Romulans wore.
The Romulans in TOS were aggressive and tricky, sure; that's not a matter of dispute. What is the matter disputed is the fascist bully-boy nature which characterized most Romulans in TNG and all the later series (although ENT doesn't really do that).
I have yet to see any date for the formation of the Tal'Shiar other than the one I have stated repeatedly. I've stated the source explicitly. You have vaguely referred to "newer material" without any specifics. State the source(s) or give it a rest.
The Tal'Shiar has its own fleet, yes. It is still not a military organization, and is explicitly stated to be civilian and not military.
I don't recall having encountered Hakeev before LoR (although I may have forgotten, since my Vulcan and Orion were already at the level cap for quite some time prior to the release of LoR). Furthermore, he's not mentioned anywhere in the Path to 2409.
When the player first encounters Temer in the Virinat system (which, oh my, is prior to the rediscovery of New Romulus), he identifies himself as a part of "the Romulan Republic." Several additional references to "the Romulan Republic" are made prior to the rediscovery of New Romulus.
And attacks by supporters of the Empire against the Republic for experimenting with Iconian tech while the RSE experimented with Borg tech are not equally hypocritical? :rolleyes:
Pink pajamas is a reference to the TOS Romulan Uniforms, which incorporate pink pajama bottoms to my eyes. Rather silly looking IMO.
Book is "Kobayashi Maru", and according to it, the Tal Shair is quite old.
They use military ranks such as 'Major' they use the same ships as the normal military, almost identical uniforms (TNG) and later the same uniforms as the military (DS9). They had enough D'deridex classes to field entire fleets of Tal Shiar ships, They were effectively the second branch of the Romulan military. That counts as 'armed forces' in my book.
Hakeev existed prior to Legacy of Romulus. You encountered him in 'Mine Enemy' the arena episode, and 'Cutting the Cord' I'm not sure if he was even the leader of the Tal Shiar prior to LoR, but he certainly wasn't working with Sela. No he isn't mentioned at all in Path to 2409, in fact-if anything path to 2409 hints that Rehaek is the puppet master of the Tal Shiar, orchestrating Sela's exile when she started digging in places the Tal Shiar didn't want her to.
The Romulan republic wasn't mentioned before Legacy of Romulus at all. The references were added afterwards, along with more obvious changes-some with New Romulus, and some with Legacy of Romulus. Surely you noticed that New Romulus ships used to fly with the I.R.W. Prefix and their personnel used to have RSE uniforms? Some of the NPCs still do, like the lieutenant in the warehouse quest. Presumably Cryptic forgot to change her rank and uniform when LOR came about. It's rather interesting comparing D'Tan's faction pre-LOR to post-LOR. The Tal Shiar general's offer to make D'Tan the Leader of the Star Empire makes a lot less sense now that his forces were the ones that overthrew the RSE and Tal Shiar, but it made more sense when D'Tan was the leader of one of the factions to emerge in the in-fighting following Sela's departure.
Have I attacked the Republic for using Iconian tech in the past? Perhaps in the case of the gateway it may seem questionable, given they knew the Dewans wiped themselves out TRIBBLE around with that same gate. The Dyson sphere or the utilization of solanae technology though? handled much better.
Pink pajamas is a reference to the TOS Romulan Uniforms, which incorporate pink pajama bottoms to my eyes. Rather silly looking IMO.
Book is "Kobayashi Maru", and according to it, the Tal Shair is quite old.
They use military ranks such as 'Major' they use the same ships as the normal military, almost identical uniforms (TNG) and later the same uniforms as the military (DS9). They had enough D'deridex classes to field entire fleets of Tal Shiar ships, They were effectively the second branch of the Romulan military. That counts as 'armed forces' in my book.
Hakeev existed prior to Legacy of Romulus. You encountered him in 'Mine Enemy' the arena episode, and 'Cutting the Cord' I'm not sure if he was even the leader of the Tal Shiar prior to LoR, but he certainly wasn't working with Sela. No he isn't mentioned at all in Path to 2409, in fact-if anything path to 2409 hints that Rehaek is the puppet master of the Tal Shiar, orchestrating Sela's exile when she started digging in places the Tal Shiar didn't want her to.
The Romulan republic wasn't mentioned before Legacy of Romulus at all. The references were added afterwards, along with more obvious changes-some with New Romulus, and some with Legacy of Romulus. Surely you noticed that New Romulus ships used to fly with the I.R.W. Prefix and their personnel used to have RSE uniforms? Some of the NPCs still do, like the lieutenant in the warehouse quest. Presumably Cryptic forgot to change her rank and uniform when LOR came about. It's rather interesting comparing D'Tan's faction pre-LOR to post-LOR. The Tal Shiar general's offer to make D'Tan the Leader of the Star Empire makes a lot less sense now that his forces were the ones that overthrew the RSE and Tal Shiar, but it made more sense when D'Tan was the leader of one of the factions to emerge in the in-fighting following Sela's departure.
Have I attacked the Republic for using Iconian tech in the past? Perhaps in the case of the gateway it may seem questionable, given they knew the Dewans wiped themselves out TRIBBLE around with that same gate. The Dyson sphere or the utilization of solanae technology though? handled much better.
Ah, yes, that novel. It does seem to contradict more than The Art of the Impossible (and Vulcan's Heart, for that matter -- which I still haven't read, but I did find a copy on Thursday, so it's only a matter of time) concerning the matter of the founding of the Tal'Shiar; for example, and in particular, the relationship of the Haakona-Romulus conflicts to the Battle of Cheron. Memory Beta has an interesting policy in connection with the contradictory dates for the founding of the Tal'Shir, recommending that any civilian "Romulan Intelligence" agency prior to the time of Narviat be referred to, not as "Tal Shiar," but as "Romulan Intelligence." While Memory Beta of course does not have the same weight as canon, I like their policy, which seems to imply that they (probably unofficially) side with the later date and view the references to Romulan Intelligence as "Tal Shiar" in Kobayashi Maru to be anachronistic.
The police also have ranks like "Sergeant," "Lieutenant," "Captain," etc. That does not make the police a branch of the military. Some of them even have military weapons (S.W.A.T. teams, for example, although more and more regular police forces have been obtaining military equipment lately), but again, that does not make the police a military branch. Some police forces have fleets of helicopters (which are used by the military); some even have tanks and armored personnel carriers, but again, they are not a branch of the military. That the Tal'Shiar has its own fleet is well-known, but since multiple sources explicitly state that they are civilian and not military, I think that point doesn't need me to counter it.
I still don't recall having encountered Hakeev prior to LoR; I'll take your word for his having been around prior. Rehaek was explicitly named as "the leader of the Tal Shiar" in the Path to 2409 (under the year 2385), but he was apparently dead (again, according to the Path to 2409, under the year 2386) prior to Sela being arrested and sentenced to death by the Tal'Shiar, which sentence was commuted to exile at Donatra's intervention (her arrest and sentence were for the alleged murder of Rehaek). (Whether or not Rehaek was actually killed in the explosion at his home is never answered with certainty in the Path to 2409, but he did not figure into any subsequent events, and he is never mentioned again after the year 2386.)
I do not recall having seen any New Romulus personnel wearing RSE uniforms (I can check the warehouse mission for the one to whom you refer, but that would obviously not mean that the NPC in question is part of the RSE, nor would the wearing of identical uniforms by the New Romulus personnel prior to LoR). What New Romulus ships were ever seen prior to LoR? There never were any in orbit around New Romulus (indeed, calls for NPC New Romulus vessels to be added to the New Romulus system have been seen since LoR came out, because there are still no New Romulus ships in the system). And prior to LoR, there was still a Romulan Star Empire in existence which consisted of more than the Tal'Shiar, with its capitol on Rator-III, which, according to the Path to 2409, began to be called "Nova Roma" (in 2394), and later (2408) "Mol'Rihan."
For that matter, the Tal'Shiar was messing around with Iconian tech (including a gate) prior to the discovery of the gate on New Romulus, and agents of the Republic were on hand to see Taris make use of an Iconian gate, which occurred prior to the attempt by the Republic to use the gate found on New Romulus. Having seen Romulans using an Iconian gate without any trouble (remember, the facility was not destroyed by the gateway itself, but by a self-destruct sequence initiated by Taris prior to her escape through the gateway), agents of the Republic obviously would not have thought the Republic's attempt was crazy or even "questionable." If I recall correctly, the gate on New Romulus had been rigged to cause destruction prior to the Republic's first attempt to use it, so referring to this event in order to condemn D'Tan is more than a little disingenuous.
I don't think anyone really wants to play the powerless and moronic Tal Shiar as they are now written. It would be fair to say there's a bit of bitterness on how Cryptic decided to treat the old RSE-style Romulans though.
Cryptic has continuously rewritten the RSE to be more and more cartoonishly evil and stupid, while promoting the Republic as it now is.
Look at what the Romulan situation as Cryptic has developed it:
Prior to New Romulus: No Republic, Obisek's rebels/terrorists are the only resistance movement, and are much darker than current Republic-using thalaron weapons vs civilians, raiding federation space, etc. Tal Shiar is only part of the Romulan armed forces, Sela and Hakeev are not in cahoots, and never share the same screen, much less even have a conversation together. What happens after Sela's abduction is not discussed.
New Romulus: Still no Republic. D'Tan's group are basically a bunch of separatists who are taking advantage of Sela's disappearance to secede. has support of at least some Romulan military elements and D'Tan is courted by the Tal Shiar as a possible replacement for Sela. Still use IRW prefix and RSE uniforms. Obisek gives his support to D'Tan.
Romulan Republic is a huge freedom fighter movement that has existed well before the disappearance of Sela and death of Hakeev. Non Tal Shiar armed forces of the RSE are retconned out, and and Hakeev and Sela are pretty much on the same page right now, with him being her 'right hand man' and his insane iconian/elachii plot setting the agenda for the entire RSE. The RR pretty much supplants the RSE as being 'the' Romulan faction.
Basically the Republic supplanted the RSE pretty much entirely by authorial fiat. The road was completely open for Cryptic to write a Romulan faction if the had wanted to. The only real reference to the Romulans of note post-Sela was 'The Return' which didn't really touch on the subject of the state of the Empire. (but showed that they still had the funds and organization to pursue development of Borg technology) The faction that emerged from the loss of Sela by no means had to be the Republic-and I would expect it to have required far less in the way of retcons and storyline changes.
That's the Romulan faction my loyalty lies with-not the stupid, cartoonish caricature of the Tal Shiar, and not this bizarre Republic that has more in common with the Maquis and the Bajorans than the Romulans-but with the Romulan Star Empire that Cryptic retconned and killed off starting with New Romulus and ending with legacy of Romulus.
catoblepasbeta is right and explained everything well. Doubt any "imperial" character stands for Cryptic storyline Tal Shiar. According to early New Romulus season materials Cryptic intended to make imperial faction, which turned after at what we have now.
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[Combat (Self)] You lose 6549 (7572) Cold from the torment of the underworld.
Ah, yes, that novel. It does seem to contradict more than The Art of the Impossible (and Vulcan's Heart, for that matter -- which I still haven't read, but I did find a copy on Thursday, so it's only a matter of time) concerning the matter of the founding of the Tal'Shiar; for example, and in particular, the relationship of the Haakona-Romulus conflicts to the Battle of Cheron. Memory Beta has an interesting policy in connection with the contradictory dates for the founding of the Tal'Shir, recommending that any civilian "Romulan Intelligence" agency prior to the time of Narviat be referred to, not as "Tal Shiar," but as "Romulan Intelligence." While Memory Beta of course does not have the same weight as canon, I like their policy, which seems to imply that they (probably unofficially) side with the later date and view the references to Romulan Intelligence as "Tal Shiar" in Kobayashi Maru to be anachronistic.
The police also have ranks like "Sergeant," "Lieutenant," "Captain," etc. That does not make the police a branch of the military. Some of them even have military weapons (S.W.A.T. teams, for example, although more and more regular police forces have been obtaining military equipment lately), but again, that does not make the police a military branch. Some police forces have fleets of helicopters (which are used by the military); some even have tanks and armored personnel carriers, but again, they are not a branch of the military. That the Tal'Shiar has its own fleet is well-known, but since multiple sources explicitly state that they are civilian and not military, I think that point doesn't need me to counter it.
I still don't recall having encountered Hakeev prior to LoR; I'll take your word for his having been around prior. Rehaek was explicitly named as "the leader of the Tal Shiar" in the Path to 2409 (under the year 2385), but he was apparently dead (again, according to the Path to 2409, under the year 2386) prior to Sela being arrested and sentenced to death by the Tal'Shiar, which sentence was commuted to exile at Donatra's intervention (her arrest and sentence were for the alleged murder of Rehaek). (Whether or not Rehaek was actually killed in the explosion at his home is never answered with certainty in the Path to 2409, but he did not figure into any subsequent events, and he is never mentioned again after the year 2386.)
I do not recall having seen any New Romulus personnel wearing RSE uniforms (I can check the warehouse mission for the one to whom you refer, but that would obviously not mean that the NPC in question is part of the RSE, nor would the wearing of identical uniforms by the New Romulus personnel prior to LoR). What New Romulus ships were ever seen prior to LoR? There never were any in orbit around New Romulus (indeed, calls for NPC New Romulus vessels to be added to the New Romulus system have been seen since LoR came out, because there are still no New Romulus ships in the system). And prior to LoR, there was still a Romulan Star Empire in existence which consisted of more than the Tal'Shiar, with its capitol on Rator-III, which, according to the Path to 2409, began to be called "Nova Roma" (in 2394), and later (2408) "Mol'Rihan."
For that matter, the Tal'Shiar was messing around with Iconian tech (including a gate) prior to the discovery of the gate on New Romulus, and agents of the Republic were on hand to see Taris make use of an Iconian gate, which occurred prior to the attempt by the Republic to use the gate found on New Romulus. Having seen Romulans using an Iconian gate without any trouble (remember, the facility was not destroyed by the gateway itself, but by a self-destruct sequence initiated by Taris prior to her escape through the gateway), agents of the Republic obviously would not have thought the Republic's attempt was crazy or even "questionable." If I recall correctly, the gate on New Romulus had been rigged to cause destruction prior to the Republic's first attempt to use it, so referring to this event in order to condemn D'Tan is more than a little disingenuous.
To each their own. I can't stand the TOS uniforms, but like the TNG and DS9 uniforms for the Romulans.
Yes, it does certainly seem to be anachronistic and a retcon, which is why I prefer to base my views on the Romulans first and foremost on their showings in the movies and TV series.
I think it's just a matter of semantics. The only thing 'civilian' about the Tal Shiar is their leadership, which is composed of appointed government officials. They would correctly be classified as 'paramilitary', but the distinction remains nominal in the case of the Tal Shiar IMO.
Yes, the sidelining of non-Tal Shiar elements of the RSE by LoR is one of the things I dislike about LoR, because its one of those things that IMO contributed to the RSE becoming a walking caricature, a strawman. Heck, even with New Romulus they didn't take it that far-their actions against New Romulus seem to consist mostly of ground-based sabotage operations, and only after D'Tan rebukes the Tal Shiar offer. A far cry from the psychotic genocidal campaigns of LOR.
Aside from the warehouse lady, the pve mission where you rescue Romulan ships from Tholians-the ship that gives you your instructions for the mission used to have a IRW prefix and the captain used to have a RSE uniform. They also removed the RSE uniforms on refugees in the 'Mine enemy' mission. There might have been other npcs on New Romulus with RSE uniforms, but the specifics escape me. All of this made a bit more sense IMO when one considers that When New Romulus came out, prior to LoR, D'Tan's faction was more of an opportunistic secession brought on by the civil war following Sela's disappearance rather than an underground rebellion.
Eh, I give Hakeev and Taris a pass when it comes to using the gate technology, considering they got the technology from the Iconians themselves, so it wouldn't be too unreasonable to presume the Iconians taught them how to operate/build the gates properly. I think their stupidity stems from working with the Iconians in the first place, IMO. The symptoms of the gate problems the Romulans encountered seem pretty close to what the Dewans describe, so I have considered them to be of similar cause. Not the dumbest thing we have seen the KDF/Fed/RR do, but certainly up there. I wouldn't be opposed to Cryptic going in there and changing some dialogue or something to make the Romulans look a bit less silly.
Book is "Kobayashi Maru", and according to it, the Tal Shair is quite old.
Would you accept that it's possible for an organisation to exist without being an official government-backed organisation?
I haven't read Kobayashi Maru, so I don't know if it's made explicit that they're a part of the RSE's power structure, or if their status is mentioned at all, but I do know that similar organisations in earth's history have existed before they became a part of the state. It seems, to me, that it's entirely possible that the later date of formation could simply be the date of incorporation into the government, and that the Tal Shiar existed as an independent organisation for far longer before coming to power.
Would you accept that it's possible for an organisation to exist without being an official government-backed organisation?
I haven't read Kobayashi Maru, so I don't know if it's made explicit that they're a part of the RSE's power structure, or if their status is mentioned at all, but I do know that similar organisations in earth's history have existed before they became a part of the state. It seems, to me, that it's entirely possible that the later date of formation could simply be the date of incorporation into the government, and that the Tal Shiar existed as an independent organisation for far longer before coming to power.
I can't speak for catoblepas, but I think it likely that there was a Romulan Intelligence outside the military prior to 2344, but the novels Vulcan's Heart and The Art of the Impossible both state that Praetor Devoras Narviat formed the Tal'Shiar in 2344, and named it after Emperor Shiarkiek (who was the uncle of Di'on Charvon / Liviana Charvanek, the wife of Narviat). The bit about the name would necessitate that no Romulan Intelligence before the time of Shiarkiek could have been named "Tal'Shiar," and the bit about Narviat having founded the group would necessitate that any civilian Romulan Intelligence prior to Narviat founding the Tal'Shiar would have been a different organization.
I can't speak for catoblepas, but I think it likely that there was a Romulan Intelligence outside the military prior to 2344, but the novels Vulcan's Heart and The Art of the Impossible both state that Praetor Devoras Narviat formed the Tal'Shiar in 2344, and named it after Emperor Shiarkiek (who was the uncle of Di'on Charvon / Liviana Charvanek, the wife of Narviat). The bit about the name would necessitate that no Romulan Intelligence before the time of Shiarkiek could have been named "Tal'Shiar," and the bit about Narviat having founded the group would necessitate that any civilian Romulan Intelligence prior to Narviat founding the Tal'Shiar would have been a different organization.
Oh, I think it's more than likely, even after 2344. Heck, even in TNG, they mentioned 'Romulan Intelligence' more than 'Tal Shiar' (mentioned in only one episode) And the 'Romulan Intelligence' Uniforms were indistinguishable from the normal military ones, (at least in TNG) with the only Tal Shiar uniform seen on screen being noticeably different.
I think it would be a reasonable assumption going by the shows that the Romulan military and/or the civilian government had their own intelligence agency/agencies outside of the Tal Shiar-it would further explain the rivalries between the Military and Tal Shiar, I think.
Oh, I think it's more than likely, even after 2344. Heck, even in TNG, they mentioned 'Romulan Intelligence' more than 'Tal Shiar' (mentioned in only one episode) And the 'Romulan Intelligence' Uniforms were indistinguishable from the normal military ones, (at least in TNG) with the only Tal Shiar uniform seen on screen being noticeably different.
I think it would be a reasonable assumption going by the shows that the Romulan military and/or the civilian government had their own intelligence agency/agencies outside of the Tal Shiar-it would further explain the rivalries between the Military and Tal Shiar, I think.
Certainly there is a separate Military Intelligence in non-canonical sources: the Tal'Diann, which is emphatically stated to have an adversarial relationship with the Tal'Shiar.
I would probably have called my fleet "Romulan Military Intelligence" if I had not known about the Tal'Diann, but I did, and the fact that the Tal'Diann is said to be adversarial to the Tal'Shiar just made the choice of name that much sweeter.
I think it likely that there was a Romulan Intelligence outside the military prior to 2344, but the novels Vulcan's Heart and The Art of the Impossible both state that Praetor Devoras Narviat formed the Tal'Shiar in 2344, and named it after Emperor Shiarkiek (who was the uncle of Di'on Charvon / Liviana Charvanek, the wife of Narviat). The bit about the name would necessitate that no Romulan Intelligence before the time of Shiarkiek could have been named "Tal'Shiar," and the bit about Narviat having founded the group would necessitate that any civilian Romulan Intelligence prior to Narviat founding the Tal'Shiar would have been a different organization.
True, in Vulcan's Heart, it's stated that the Tal Shiar are a replacement for the old, "corrupt and cruel" intelligence forces, so there definitely was a government-backed intelligence force before then, but I was thinking of the Tal Shiar themselves predating that event, just without government ties. I don't think the name is all that important (unless they're referred to as the Tal Shiar in Kobyashi Maru, in which case... bwuh? Umm... time travel!) because it's easy enough to give an organisation a new name. As for Narviat founding them... well, it's possible that this is obfuscation ("I just founded them today, so don't worry that they're secretly that paramilitary group that's been terrorising Romulan citizens for centuries, just given a fresh coat of legitimacy, they're brand new!") but, whether that's true or not, their existing before 2344 doesn't necessarily mean they were a tool of the Romulan government before that date. As I vaguely hinted at in my previous post, the SA (which had military titles for its members, despite not being a part of the German military) existed for over a decade before the TRIBBLE rise to power. So... yeah my point is that they could've existed for a long time, before coming to their ultimate position along with a change of political power or opinion in the government.
Certainly there is a separate Military Intelligence in non-canonical sources: the Tal'Diann, which is emphatically stated to have an adversarial relationship with the Tal'Shiar.
I would probably have called my fleet "Romulan Military Intelligence" if I had not known about the Tal'Diann, but I did, and the fact that the Tal'Diann is said to be adversarial to the Tal'Shiar just made the choice of name that much sweeter.
IMO the ideal scenario for how Cryptic could have had a Rommie faction would have played off the Romulan military/intelligence and Tal Shiar divisions-working with the Military/Intelligence to uncover all the treasonous activity the Tal Shiar had been up to under Hakeev, perhaps under the orders of Sela herself-which would makes sense considering she was a member of Romulan Intelligence (or Tal'Diann as you call it) in TNG, and is established in her backstory in STO as being adversarial to the Tal Shiar. Missions would ideally have dialogue options to set the tone of your Captain-Tomalak-esque or D'tan-esque. Oh, what could have been.
IMO the ideal scenario for how Cryptic could have had a Rommie faction would have played off the Romulan military/intelligence and Tal Shiar divisions-working with the Military/Intelligence to uncover all the treasonous activity the Tal Shiar had been up to under Hakeev, perhaps under the orders of Sela herself-which would makes sense considering she was a member of Romulan Intelligence (or Tal'Diann as you call it) in TNG, and is established in her backstory in STO as being adversarial to the Tal Shiar. Missions would ideally have dialogue options to set the tone of your Captain-Tomalak-esque or D'tan-esque. Oh, what could have been.
I think Sela was part of the Tal'Shiar; her character simply fits that view, and doesn't fit the Tal'Diann (even before my re-formation of the Tal'Diann). She was established in the backstory (Path to 2409) as adversarial to the Tal'Shiar under Rehaek, but only after Rehaek started persecuting nobles whom she favored. I think it's safe to say her actual opposition was to Rehaek and those who supported him in the Tal'Shiar, and not the Tal'Shiar itself. The Path to 2409 also says she had experience in Intelligence (it does not say "Military Intelligence").
IMO the ideal scenario for how Cryptic could have had a Rommie faction would have played off the Romulan military/intelligence and Tal Shiar divisions-working with the Military/Intelligence to uncover all the treasonous activity the Tal Shiar had been up to under Hakeev, perhaps under the orders of Sela herself
I think it would be better if the option was there, and that might've been a better way to determine whether you had ties to the Federation or Klingons, but I'm glad that we're able to have Republic characters. Partly because I like the idea of the Romulan people having some control over their lives, but mostly because my Romulan is the only character I have who doesn't see herself as a military officer, even if she does, technically, have a military rank and ties to the Romulan Republic Navy: She's a doctor, she was happy to be a doctor, she's only fighting because - and as long as - she has to, and I like that. The others are career military, not much room for rp angst there. :P
IMO the ideal scenario for how Cryptic could have had a Rommie faction would have played off the Romulan military/intelligence and Tal Shiar divisions-working with the Military/Intelligence to uncover all the treasonous activity the Tal Shiar had been up to under Hakeev, perhaps under the orders of Sela herself-which would makes sense considering she was a member of Romulan Intelligence (or Tal'Diann as you call it) in TNG, and is established in her backstory in STO as being adversarial to the Tal Shiar. Missions would ideally have dialogue options to set the tone of your Captain-Tomalak-esque or D'tan-esque. Oh, what could have been.
woulda been better than what we got but theres a lot of options that would have been better and most are pretty obvious to even blind fools. A pity Cryptic didnt bother caring
Sorry guys I was trying to make a Foundry mission but it is not working as plan. Hopefully I have it ready for next Friday. Until them save your energy and go back to drink wine with your Klingons masters. :mad:
So is there an ETA on this? Because the thread sort of just dissolved into bickering.
Support 90 degree arc limitation on BFaW! Save our ships from looking like flying disco balls of dumb!
Proto, i have a question for you. you may hhave mentioned already but i do not recall where so i am going to ask.
Why did you ally with they Klingons? They invaded our space, took our territory. Killed our people after homeworld was lost? I was just wondering. At least the feds dont seem to want anything from us other than us leaving them alone...
Proto, i have a question for you. you may hhave mentioned already but i do not recall where so i am going to ask.
Why did you ally with they Klingons? They invaded our space, took our territory. Killed our people after homeworld was lost? I was just wondering. At least the feds dont seem to want anything from us other than us leaving them alone...
Proto, i have a question for you. you may hhave mentioned already but i do not recall where so i am going to ask.
Why did you ally with they Klingons? They invaded our space, took our territory. Killed our people after homeworld was lost? I was just wondering. At least the feds dont seem to want anything from us other than us leaving them alone...
That was the government of Martok, he is no longer with us. The Republicans and the Imperials who have sided with the Klingon Empire in the Long War, are allying themselves with the government of J'mpok, the Chancellor who sought friends with the Remans, co-eliminated Haakev, and helped us, and are still helping us in our time of need.
I think Sela was part of the Tal'Shiar; her character simply fits that view, and doesn't fit the Tal'Diann (even before my re-formation of the Tal'Diann). She was established in the backstory (Path to 2409) as adversarial to the Tal'Shiar under Rehaek, but only after Rehaek started persecuting nobles whom she favored. I think it's safe to say her actual opposition was to Rehaek and those who supported him in the Tal'Shiar, and not the Tal'Shiar itself. The Path to 2409 also says she had experience in Intelligence (it does not say "Military Intelligence").
Sela seems more Tal Prai'ex-ish to me. At least the ones who did not exile when they found out about Hakeev.
Comments
D'tan and the Republic Senate may not be perfect, but they're a hell of a lot better than the Tal Shiar, Sela, and the remnants of the RSE.
I can understand the power trip behind playing the villain...but the problem with being a Tal Shiar 'villain' in this game...is they DON'T have the power, they're fractured and scattered.
Why anyone would want to play a desperate, near powerless faction, known for infighting, promotion through assassination, and general toadyism is beyond me.
That's why i'm happy being an intelligence operative with a near limitless budget...but with the morals to not misuse it for nefarious purposes
Cryptic has continuously rewritten the RSE to be more and more cartoonishly evil and stupid, while promoting the Republic as it now is.
Look at what the Romulan situation as Cryptic has developed it:
Prior to New Romulus: No Republic, Obisek's rebels/terrorists are the only resistance movement, and are much darker than current Republic-using thalaron weapons vs civilians, raiding federation space, etc. Tal Shiar is only part of the Romulan armed forces, Sela and Hakeev are not in cahoots, and never share the same screen, much less even have a conversation together. What happens after Sela's abduction is not discussed.
New Romulus: Still no Republic. D'Tan's group are basically a bunch of separatists who are taking advantage of Sela's disappearance to secede. has support of at least some Romulan military elements and D'Tan is courted by the Tal Shiar as a possible replacement for Sela. Still use IRW prefix and RSE uniforms. Obisek gives his support to D'Tan.
Romulan Republic is a huge freedom fighter movement that has existed well before the disappearance of Sela and death of Hakeev. Non Tal Shiar armed forces of the RSE are retconned out, and and Hakeev and Sela are pretty much on the same page right now, with him being her 'right hand man' and his insane iconian/elachii plot setting the agenda for the entire RSE. The RR pretty much supplants the RSE as being 'the' Romulan faction.
Basically the Republic supplanted the RSE pretty much entirely by authorial fiat. The road was completely open for Cryptic to write a Romulan faction if the had wanted to. The only real reference to the Romulans of note post-Sela was 'The Return' which didn't really touch on the subject of the state of the Empire. (but showed that they still had the funds and organization to pursue development of Borg technology) The faction that emerged from the loss of Sela by no means had to be the Republic-and I would expect it to have required far less in the way of retcons and storyline changes.
That's the Romulan faction my loyalty lies with-not the stupid, cartoonish caricature of the Tal Shiar, and not this bizarre Republic that has more in common with the Maquis and the Bajorans than the Romulans-but with the Romulan Star Empire that Cryptic retconned and killed off starting with New Romulus and ending with legacy of Romulus.
First of all, the "old RSE-style Romulans" were in TOS. Something changed between TOS and TNG, and that was the formation of the Tal'Shiar.
Second, the Tal'Shiar is not and never was a part of the Romulan armed forces; they are explicitly stated by numerous sources to be a civilian intelligence agency and secret police; they were an agency of the Romulan Star Empire's government, never affiliated with the Romulan Star Navy, which opposed them frequently.
Third, Sela and Hakeev share the screen in more than one mission, or did you not do the "Mind Games" mission (she seems pretty cozy with Hakeev in this) or the "Cutting the Cord" mission (in which she finally -- finally -- cuts ties with Hakeev, even having a conversation with him to inform him of this decision, but just a bit too late for it to matter), or did you just skip the cut scenes in those missions? What happens after Sela's "abduction" happens after Hakeev is dead/captured (depending on the player's action), and is therefore irrelevant to her relationship with Hakeev.
Fourth, denying that the Republic is a Republic doesn't make it not a Republic; D'Tan was elected and there is a Senate. Even the STO Wiki states that the government of the Republic is "democratic."
Fifth, the RSE (and specifically, the Tal'Shiar) was already experimenting with, and making use of, Borg tech before Sela was carried away by the Iconians (which, by the way, ought to be mentioned in every discussion in which the Republic is condemned for trying to make use of Iconian tech).
As much as you like to bring up book evidence of the Tal Shiar being relatively new, newer material supersedes and retcons the Tal Shiar to predating the Federation.
The Tal Shiar possesses its own ships and infantry. They are part of the armed forced of the RSE even if they operate outside the structure of the Navy. Her backstory that Cryptic wrote for her indicates that she hates the Tal Shiar, which made it all the more bizarre when LOR came around and Hakeev was suddenly her right hand and she allowed the non-tal Shar military to be disbanded.
I was talking about pre-legacy of Romulus, where Hakeev and Sela never talk to each other. Mind games is LOR material, and the old Cutting the Cord Mission had her warping in in response to the KDF/FED player invading a Romulan planet.
I didn't deny that the Republic was a Republic, only pointed out that it was never called the Republic prior to LoR, and in fact, did not exist at all prior to New Romulus.
So? I never said they weren't experimenting with Borg tech prior...there's a episode or two that deal with it prior to 'The Return' even before LOR...though I always found the Federation's position on the Rommies having borg tech to be more than a bit hypocritical considering Voyager, the Delta flyer, and Omega Force.
I don't know where you got this pink/purple pajama thing, but that's not what the TOS Romulans wore.
The Romulans in TOS were aggressive and tricky, sure; that's not a matter of dispute. What is the matter disputed is the fascist bully-boy nature which characterized most Romulans in TNG and all the later series (although ENT doesn't really do that).
I have yet to see any date for the formation of the Tal'Shiar other than the one I have stated repeatedly. I've stated the source explicitly. You have vaguely referred to "newer material" without any specifics. State the source(s) or give it a rest.
The Tal'Shiar has its own fleet, yes. It is still not a military organization, and is explicitly stated to be civilian and not military.
I don't recall having encountered Hakeev before LoR (although I may have forgotten, since my Vulcan and Orion were already at the level cap for quite some time prior to the release of LoR). Furthermore, he's not mentioned anywhere in the Path to 2409.
When the player first encounters Temer in the Virinat system (which, oh my, is prior to the rediscovery of New Romulus), he identifies himself as a part of "the Romulan Republic." Several additional references to "the Romulan Republic" are made prior to the rediscovery of New Romulus.
And attacks by supporters of the Empire against the Republic for experimenting with Iconian tech while the RSE experimented with Borg tech are not equally hypocritical? :rolleyes:
Book is "Kobayashi Maru", and according to it, the Tal Shair is quite old.
They use military ranks such as 'Major' they use the same ships as the normal military, almost identical uniforms (TNG) and later the same uniforms as the military (DS9). They had enough D'deridex classes to field entire fleets of Tal Shiar ships, They were effectively the second branch of the Romulan military. That counts as 'armed forces' in my book.
Hakeev existed prior to Legacy of Romulus. You encountered him in 'Mine Enemy' the arena episode, and 'Cutting the Cord' I'm not sure if he was even the leader of the Tal Shiar prior to LoR, but he certainly wasn't working with Sela. No he isn't mentioned at all in Path to 2409, in fact-if anything path to 2409 hints that Rehaek is the puppet master of the Tal Shiar, orchestrating Sela's exile when she started digging in places the Tal Shiar didn't want her to.
The Romulan republic wasn't mentioned before Legacy of Romulus at all. The references were added afterwards, along with more obvious changes-some with New Romulus, and some with Legacy of Romulus. Surely you noticed that New Romulus ships used to fly with the I.R.W. Prefix and their personnel used to have RSE uniforms? Some of the NPCs still do, like the lieutenant in the warehouse quest. Presumably Cryptic forgot to change her rank and uniform when LOR came about. It's rather interesting comparing D'Tan's faction pre-LOR to post-LOR. The Tal Shiar general's offer to make D'Tan the Leader of the Star Empire makes a lot less sense now that his forces were the ones that overthrew the RSE and Tal Shiar, but it made more sense when D'Tan was the leader of one of the factions to emerge in the in-fighting following Sela's departure.
Have I attacked the Republic for using Iconian tech in the past? Perhaps in the case of the gateway it may seem questionable, given they knew the Dewans wiped themselves out TRIBBLE around with that same gate. The Dyson sphere or the utilization of solanae technology though? handled much better.
They look like culottes/kulats to me, rather than pyjama pants:
http://i01.i.aliimg.com/wsphoto/v0/670947847/Autumn-and-winter-wide-leg-pants-high-waist-pants-trousers-feet-trousers-ankle-length-trousers-culottes.jpg
and are arguably more red than pink (I believe the actual color would be called "Black Rose"); while the others shown in TOS are blue (not purple).
Ah, yes, that novel. It does seem to contradict more than The Art of the Impossible (and Vulcan's Heart, for that matter -- which I still haven't read, but I did find a copy on Thursday, so it's only a matter of time) concerning the matter of the founding of the Tal'Shiar; for example, and in particular, the relationship of the Haakona-Romulus conflicts to the Battle of Cheron. Memory Beta has an interesting policy in connection with the contradictory dates for the founding of the Tal'Shir, recommending that any civilian "Romulan Intelligence" agency prior to the time of Narviat be referred to, not as "Tal Shiar," but as "Romulan Intelligence." While Memory Beta of course does not have the same weight as canon, I like their policy, which seems to imply that they (probably unofficially) side with the later date and view the references to Romulan Intelligence as "Tal Shiar" in Kobayashi Maru to be anachronistic.
The police also have ranks like "Sergeant," "Lieutenant," "Captain," etc. That does not make the police a branch of the military. Some of them even have military weapons (S.W.A.T. teams, for example, although more and more regular police forces have been obtaining military equipment lately), but again, that does not make the police a military branch. Some police forces have fleets of helicopters (which are used by the military); some even have tanks and armored personnel carriers, but again, they are not a branch of the military. That the Tal'Shiar has its own fleet is well-known, but since multiple sources explicitly state that they are civilian and not military, I think that point doesn't need me to counter it.
I still don't recall having encountered Hakeev prior to LoR; I'll take your word for his having been around prior. Rehaek was explicitly named as "the leader of the Tal Shiar" in the Path to 2409 (under the year 2385), but he was apparently dead (again, according to the Path to 2409, under the year 2386) prior to Sela being arrested and sentenced to death by the Tal'Shiar, which sentence was commuted to exile at Donatra's intervention (her arrest and sentence were for the alleged murder of Rehaek). (Whether or not Rehaek was actually killed in the explosion at his home is never answered with certainty in the Path to 2409, but he did not figure into any subsequent events, and he is never mentioned again after the year 2386.)
I do not recall having seen any New Romulus personnel wearing RSE uniforms (I can check the warehouse mission for the one to whom you refer, but that would obviously not mean that the NPC in question is part of the RSE, nor would the wearing of identical uniforms by the New Romulus personnel prior to LoR). What New Romulus ships were ever seen prior to LoR? There never were any in orbit around New Romulus (indeed, calls for NPC New Romulus vessels to be added to the New Romulus system have been seen since LoR came out, because there are still no New Romulus ships in the system). And prior to LoR, there was still a Romulan Star Empire in existence which consisted of more than the Tal'Shiar, with its capitol on Rator-III, which, according to the Path to 2409, began to be called "Nova Roma" (in 2394), and later (2408) "Mol'Rihan."
For that matter, the Tal'Shiar was messing around with Iconian tech (including a gate) prior to the discovery of the gate on New Romulus, and agents of the Republic were on hand to see Taris make use of an Iconian gate, which occurred prior to the attempt by the Republic to use the gate found on New Romulus. Having seen Romulans using an Iconian gate without any trouble (remember, the facility was not destroyed by the gateway itself, but by a self-destruct sequence initiated by Taris prior to her escape through the gateway), agents of the Republic obviously would not have thought the Republic's attempt was crazy or even "questionable." If I recall correctly, the gate on New Romulus had been rigged to cause destruction prior to the Republic's first attempt to use it, so referring to this event in order to condemn D'Tan is more than a little disingenuous.
catoblepasbeta is right and explained everything well. Doubt any "imperial" character stands for Cryptic storyline Tal Shiar. According to early New Romulus season materials Cryptic intended to make imperial faction, which turned after at what we have now.
[Combat (Self)] You lose 6549 (7572) Cold from the torment of the underworld.
In-game handle @Janetza
Yes, it does certainly seem to be anachronistic and a retcon, which is why I prefer to base my views on the Romulans first and foremost on their showings in the movies and TV series.
I think it's just a matter of semantics. The only thing 'civilian' about the Tal Shiar is their leadership, which is composed of appointed government officials. They would correctly be classified as 'paramilitary', but the distinction remains nominal in the case of the Tal Shiar IMO.
Yes, the sidelining of non-Tal Shiar elements of the RSE by LoR is one of the things I dislike about LoR, because its one of those things that IMO contributed to the RSE becoming a walking caricature, a strawman. Heck, even with New Romulus they didn't take it that far-their actions against New Romulus seem to consist mostly of ground-based sabotage operations, and only after D'Tan rebukes the Tal Shiar offer. A far cry from the psychotic genocidal campaigns of LOR.
Aside from the warehouse lady, the pve mission where you rescue Romulan ships from Tholians-the ship that gives you your instructions for the mission used to have a IRW prefix and the captain used to have a RSE uniform. They also removed the RSE uniforms on refugees in the 'Mine enemy' mission. There might have been other npcs on New Romulus with RSE uniforms, but the specifics escape me. All of this made a bit more sense IMO when one considers that When New Romulus came out, prior to LoR, D'Tan's faction was more of an opportunistic secession brought on by the civil war following Sela's disappearance rather than an underground rebellion.
Eh, I give Hakeev and Taris a pass when it comes to using the gate technology, considering they got the technology from the Iconians themselves, so it wouldn't be too unreasonable to presume the Iconians taught them how to operate/build the gates properly. I think their stupidity stems from working with the Iconians in the first place, IMO. The symptoms of the gate problems the Romulans encountered seem pretty close to what the Dewans describe, so I have considered them to be of similar cause. Not the dumbest thing we have seen the KDF/Fed/RR do, but certainly up there. I wouldn't be opposed to Cryptic going in there and changing some dialogue or something to make the Romulans look a bit less silly.
Would you accept that it's possible for an organisation to exist without being an official government-backed organisation?
I haven't read Kobayashi Maru, so I don't know if it's made explicit that they're a part of the RSE's power structure, or if their status is mentioned at all, but I do know that similar organisations in earth's history have existed before they became a part of the state. It seems, to me, that it's entirely possible that the later date of formation could simply be the date of incorporation into the government, and that the Tal Shiar existed as an independent organisation for far longer before coming to power.
I can't speak for catoblepas, but I think it likely that there was a Romulan Intelligence outside the military prior to 2344, but the novels Vulcan's Heart and The Art of the Impossible both state that Praetor Devoras Narviat formed the Tal'Shiar in 2344, and named it after Emperor Shiarkiek (who was the uncle of Di'on Charvon / Liviana Charvanek, the wife of Narviat). The bit about the name would necessitate that no Romulan Intelligence before the time of Shiarkiek could have been named "Tal'Shiar," and the bit about Narviat having founded the group would necessitate that any civilian Romulan Intelligence prior to Narviat founding the Tal'Shiar would have been a different organization.
I think it would be a reasonable assumption going by the shows that the Romulan military and/or the civilian government had their own intelligence agency/agencies outside of the Tal Shiar-it would further explain the rivalries between the Military and Tal Shiar, I think.
Certainly there is a separate Military Intelligence in non-canonical sources: the Tal'Diann, which is emphatically stated to have an adversarial relationship with the Tal'Shiar.
I would probably have called my fleet "Romulan Military Intelligence" if I had not known about the Tal'Diann, but I did, and the fact that the Tal'Diann is said to be adversarial to the Tal'Shiar just made the choice of name that much sweeter.
True, in Vulcan's Heart, it's stated that the Tal Shiar are a replacement for the old, "corrupt and cruel" intelligence forces, so there definitely was a government-backed intelligence force before then, but I was thinking of the Tal Shiar themselves predating that event, just without government ties. I don't think the name is all that important (unless they're referred to as the Tal Shiar in Kobyashi Maru, in which case... bwuh? Umm... time travel!) because it's easy enough to give an organisation a new name. As for Narviat founding them... well, it's possible that this is obfuscation ("I just founded them today, so don't worry that they're secretly that paramilitary group that's been terrorising Romulan citizens for centuries, just given a fresh coat of legitimacy, they're brand new!") but, whether that's true or not, their existing before 2344 doesn't necessarily mean they were a tool of the Romulan government before that date. As I vaguely hinted at in my previous post, the SA (which had military titles for its members, despite not being a part of the German military) existed for over a decade before the TRIBBLE rise to power. So... yeah my point is that they could've existed for a long time, before coming to their ultimate position along with a change of political power or opinion in the government.
I think Sela was part of the Tal'Shiar; her character simply fits that view, and doesn't fit the Tal'Diann (even before my re-formation of the Tal'Diann). She was established in the backstory (Path to 2409) as adversarial to the Tal'Shiar under Rehaek, but only after Rehaek started persecuting nobles whom she favored. I think it's safe to say her actual opposition was to Rehaek and those who supported him in the Tal'Shiar, and not the Tal'Shiar itself. The Path to 2409 also says she had experience in Intelligence (it does not say "Military Intelligence").
I think it would be better if the option was there, and that might've been a better way to determine whether you had ties to the Federation or Klingons, but I'm glad that we're able to have Republic characters. Partly because I like the idea of the Romulan people having some control over their lives, but mostly because my Romulan is the only character I have who doesn't see herself as a military officer, even if she does, technically, have a military rank and ties to the Romulan Republic Navy: She's a doctor, she was happy to be a doctor, she's only fighting because - and as long as - she has to, and I like that. The others are career military, not much room for rp angst there. :P
So is there an ETA on this? Because the thread sort of just dissolved into bickering.
Support 90 degree arc limitation on BFaW! Save our ships from looking like flying disco balls of dumb!
Why did you ally with they Klingons? They invaded our space, took our territory. Killed our people after homeworld was lost? I was just wondering. At least the feds dont seem to want anything from us other than us leaving them alone...
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=13258741&posted=1#post13258741
That was the government of Martok, he is no longer with us. The Republicans and the Imperials who have sided with the Klingon Empire in the Long War, are allying themselves with the government of J'mpok, the Chancellor who sought friends with the Remans, co-eliminated Haakev, and helped us, and are still helping us in our time of need.
Tal'Shiar/Reman Resistance/Romulan Nemesis uniform, pls.
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7403/13262502435_5604548f2c_o.png
Sela seems more Tal Prai'ex-ish to me. At least the ones who did not exile when they found out about Hakeev.
Tal'Shiar/Reman Resistance/Romulan Nemesis uniform, pls.
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7403/13262502435_5604548f2c_o.png