Exactly. A few Romulans here need to realize there is more to Romulans than being a Iconian-reprogrammed genocidal maniac and being the stooges of a Vulcan boot-licking reunificationist.
We need a return to the Romulan Star Empire all right, but the likes of Hakeev's Tal Shiar have no place in it-they have lost the right to call themselves Romulan when they destroyed our homeworld.
A few Romulans need to face the reality that any secret police force will necessarily become nothing but a group of thugs with authority to be thugs, no matter if they are allied with a power like the Iconians or not. Take Joe McCarthy and multiply him a few times, and you have a Tal'Shiar-like group of people dedicated to enforcing conformity to some imaginary standard of loyalty.
A few Romulans also need to figure out that Reunification was first attempted by Romulans.
A few Romulans also need to remember that D'Tan studied with Spock, who was only half Vulcan and who deliberately REJECTED the absolute purgation of emotion known as "Kolinahr" BEFORE he started the contemporary Reunification movement.
A few Romulans need to realize that imperialism is contrary to the ideals of a people who became who they are because they did not wish to have to submit to enforced conformity, but wanted the freedom of self-determination.
The Romulan Star Empire is dead. In 200 years or so, the Republic is likely to become an empire (or at least that's the general assumption of Earth historians about how long it takes for a free society to become imperialistic and tyrannical), but for now, what is there worthy of resurrecting? Obeisance to a psychotic half-Romulan megalomaniac? Forcing others to adapt our ways? Conquest? These are not Romulan virtues.
A few Romulans also need to figure out that Reunification was first attempted by Romulans.
You keep saying that, yet you seem unable to grasp the difference between military conquest of Vulcan by Romulans and Romulans adopting the teachings of Surak-which goes completely against what Romulans are.
A few Romulans also need to remember that D'Tan studied with Spock, who was only half Vulcan and who deliberately REJECTED the absolute purgation of emotion known as "Kolinahr" BEFORE he started the contemporary Reunification movement..
D'Tan was being taught Vulcan culture, language etc by his parents.
As for Spock, he has always identified more with his Vulcan side, and continued to value ideals even into the JJ movies. That ritual you mention? It's rare even among Vulcans to go through with it. Spock came further than many Vulcans have in his acceptance of logic.
A few Romulans need to realize that imperialism is contrary to the ideals of a people who became who they are because they did not wish to have to submit to enforced conformity, but wanted the freedom of self-determination.
The Romulans value of militaristic strength, a strong central government, and imperialistic tendancies are more recent and longstanding cultural cornerstones and thus more relevant.
The Romulan Star Empire is dead. In 200 years or so, the Republic is likely to become an empire (or at least that's the general assumption of Earth historians about how long it takes for a free society to become imperialistic and tyrannical), but for now, what is there worthy of resurrecting? Obeisance to a psychotic half-Romulan megalomaniac? Forcing others to adapt our ways? Conquest? These are not Romulan virtues.
resurrecting? Were you playing prior to Legacy of Romulus? the older style of Romulans were still alive and well-with nary a sign of Republic-styled Romulans until New Romulus came out and suddenly Romulans started getting a complete rewrite that did a 180 to their character. I find it bizarre that some people insist on the notion that this was some kind of inevitable social change that we should have all seen coming. If anything prior to LoR, the political/societal changes the Romulans were having were more like the changes from Republican Rome to Imperial Rome-they were going in the exact opposite direction that LoR has us at now.
But to say that ALL romulans are untrustworthy is just plain racist. Sure are that bad romulans? youre damn skippy but there are bad humans, bad kilingons, bad EVERYBODY. The Tal Shiar enbodies some of the worst of romulans so why even use the name? It would be like a green peace party born out of Germany using the TRIBBLE name and tring to make it a good thing...WHY?!
As for the 180 degree turn the romulans have made. I think, IMO, that with all the ruling romulan class in chaos, those who wanted something different, as aspect of romulan society that we have either never seen, or seen very little of, seen the chaos as a chance to set up their own government. Afterward, the allying with the FED/KDF, yeah i cant really back that play however what is donr is done and im not the writer here. i have no control over where/what the romulan government does, same IRL..... But that doesnt mean i cant have pride in being romulan in game nor does it mean i have to be some backstabbing romulan. Your forget, the klingons are not the only ones who value honor. The BIGGEST different between Romulans and kilingons is this:
Klingons value honor PERIOD. Honor to themselves, honor to their enemies...fools, honor to those they fight with who arent kilingon.....
Romulans value honor to themselves. their families ans that really it. To hell with everyone else. Until now.... Now they cant afford to keep to themselves. But if you think for a moment if it doesnt become a benifit the remain allyed to KDF/FED, the romulans SHOULDNT and WOULDNT continue to do so. Romulans love freedom and independence. If you think they would give up those two things to anyone, ANYONE, even other romulans, youve got another thing coming.
I am not saying that all Romulans are untrustworthy....*sigh* how many times do I have to say that? I'm speaking of cultural trends. Not all Vulcans are Logical, not all Klingons are Honorable...but most are.
It might have been more reasonable to introduce a faction like this if there had been some precedent for the likes of the RR in STO, if not ST in general, but as it is it *is* a 180 on how they were before, even in STO. As I have said, prior to LoR and the NR adventure zone. the TNG style Romulans *were* the Romulans we had.
As for Romulan Honor, yes I'm aware. But my impression is that Romulan Honor has as at least as much to do with reputation (how you are seen to act) as it does how one actually acts.
Personally I think the ideal situation if Cryptic had to split the faction, would have been to have the more traditional Romulans (sorts like Tomalak & Co) ally with the KDF, and the more friendly reunification types go to the federation. The benefits would be that there would be that players would actually be able to choose to play a more traditional 'bad' Romulan if they wanted, the bizzare 'military alliance with two entities at war with each other openly and simultaneously' situation wouldn't exist, and it would actually tie into the KDF-Federation War rather nicely. And some weird oddities like Fed-Roms and KDF-Roms having different uniforms would no longer be oddities.
Instead we have a situation where at least half, if not the majority of the Romulan population disappears/turns into Tal Shiar overnight, a bunch of farmers & refugees barely scraping by go from flying T'Liss rustbuckets to fielding D'Deridex's and Scimitars and building their own original Ship designs in a month or two. And then turn around and forge a military alliance with both sides of a massive war-openly and simultaneously (something most ferengi don't seem greedy enough to try in STO) As is it just makes no sense as written IMO.
What?!? :eek: More poor diluted souls that yearn for those who destroyed the Star Empire in the first place?
This is a topic that keeps on repeating itself here in the Romulan section of the forum and I must admit, I'm growing quite wary to discuss this over and over and over again.....so I'll keep it short and simple:
The RSE is no more. The Tal'Shiar is no more. Unfortunately, Romulus is no more as well. What was left of the RSE after Hobus, could've been picked up if it wasn't for corrupt leadership that opressed the people and fractured into factions that waged war against eachother for individual benefits in the biggest time of need for the Romulan people. A leadership so corrupt and spineless that turned their backs with their tails between their legs when the self proclaimed "Empress" appeared with her Hirogen dogs and took over. Do these people sound Romulan? Are these the Romulans you yearn for, the Romulans of old?
What exists now is Mol'Rihan and the Republic. In fact, the Republic is the only prosperous entity with a stable future the Romulan species have. For almost a year we've been building new and better future for the Romulans.
Time to face reality, noone but a few poor diluted and nostalgic souls wants the TNG RSE back. The Romulans are way too busy enjoying their freedom and builidng a better future for their species.
I do miss one thing from the old RSE though. Sela. I need Sela back so I can do the Hakeev maneuver on her as well and finally have closure.
You keep saying that, yet you seem unable to grasp the difference between military conquest of Vulcan by Romulans and Romulans adopting the teachings of Surak-which goes completely against what Romulans are.
No, actually, what goes completely against what Romulans are is any attempt to FORCE them to adopt the teachings of Surak -- or any other philosophy. FREEDOM is what it means to be Romulan. And Reunification? Why do you only see the one side and not the other? The point to Reunification is that both -- BOTH -- the Romulans and the Vulcans are incomplete. The Vulcans must make concessions, or it will never work, and they're apparently not yet willing to admit that they are hypocrites as regards the teachings they claim to revere.
As for Spock, he has always identified more with his Vulcan side, and continued to value ideals even into the JJ movies. That ritual you mention? It's rare even among Vulcans to go through with it. Spock came further than many Vulcans have in his acceptance of logic.
He always identified more with his Vulcan side -- BEFORE he died and returned, after which there was a shift in his perspectives. Spock embraced Cthia, yes, but he chose not to embrace Kolinahr. Note the word "chose." It's quite important. In not going through with Kolinahr, Spock made a very potent statement: not that he was afraid he would fail, but that he saw no value in it.
resurrecting? Were you playing prior to Legacy of Romulus? the older style of Romulans were still alive and well-with nary a sign of Republic-styled Romulans until New Romulus came out and suddenly Romulans started getting a complete rewrite that did a 180 to their character. I find it bizarre that some people insist on the notion that this was some kind of inevitable social change that we should have all seen coming. If anything prior to LoR, the political/societal changes the Romulans were having were more like the changes from Republican Rome to Imperial Rome-they were going in the exact opposite direction that LoR has us at now.
Oh, yes, I was indeed playing before LoR. I had a Vulcan and an Orion both at the level cap before LoR came out. You may safely ignore my forum "Join Date." That's when I first posted in the fora, not when I started playing. But by asking that question, you have attempted to distract from the subject at hand, which is not how long I've been playing, but what the nature of "Romulanity" is. And then you simply beg the question by asserting that that they got "a complete rewrite that did a 180 to their character." Again, it's not a 180 to the TOS Romulans (and with the average Romulan lifespan being 250 years, some of the Romulans who lived in the TOS era are still alive; do you presume that they changed from what they were right along with the change in depicting Romulans in the later series?).
Personally I think the ideal situation if Cryptic had to split the faction, would have been to have the more traditional Romulans (sorts like Tomalak & Co) ally with the KDF, and the more friendly reunification types go to the federation. The benefits would be that there would be that players would actually be able to choose to play a more traditional 'bad' Romulan if they wanted, the bizzare 'military alliance with two entities at war with each other openly and simultaneously' situation wouldn't exist, and it would actually tie into the KDF-Federation War rather nicely. And some weird oddities like Fed-Roms and KDF-Roms having different uniforms would no longer be oddities.
Personally, I think the ideal situation would have been to make Romulans a full faction still divided, but not between alliance with the UFP or KE, but rather, divided as we are here: some favoring imperialism (and/or fascist bully boys), and some favoring freedom. I might actually enjoy PvP in STO then.
Personally, I think the ideal situation would have been to make Romulans a full faction still divided, but not between alliance with the UFP or KE, but rather, divided as we are here: some favoring imperialism (and/or fascist bully boys), and some favoring freedom. I might actually enjoy PvP in STO then.
Well Nice to know we finally have something to agree on. If the Romulans were a full faction divided in civil war between Imperialists and freedom fighters, I'd probably have deleted several of my characters to make way for some Romulans of both factions, instead of just having the one.
Contrary to what some people have said about my opinions, I don't actually have a problem with a RR-like faction, I have a problem with them being the *only* way to play a Romulan, when so much of their onscreen time was characterized by completely different attributes and behavior.
Personally, I think the ideal situation would have been to make Romulans a full faction still divided, but not between alliance with the UFP or KE, but rather, divided as we are here: some favoring imperialism (and/or fascist bully boys), and some favoring freedom. I might actually enjoy PvP in STO then.
Personally, I think the ideal situation would have been to make Romulans a full faction still divided, but not between alliance with the UFP or KE, but rather, divided as we are here: some favoring imperialism (and/or fascist bully boys), and some favoring freedom. I might actually enjoy PvP in STO then.
Not only a fabulous idea but a short post... are you ill Proto? :P lol
Federation - War against the Entire Galaxy
Klingons - War against the Entire Galaxy
Ferengi - Making profit from Belligerents that's at war with the Entire Galaxy
Dominion - In Hiding
Borg - No longer Assimilating but now adopting Extermination Policies, programing, whatever...
Romulans - Peace & Friendship, now Lapdogs of both Klingons and Federation also joining their war against other Romulans, Klingons or Federation and the Entire Galaxy
Cardassians - Lapdogs of the Federation
Federation - War against the Entire Galaxy
Klingons - War against the Entire Galaxy
Ferengi - Making profit from Belligerents that's at war with the Entire Galaxy
Dominion - In Hiding
Borg - No longer Assimilating but now adopting Extermination Policies, programing, whatever...
Romulans - Peace & Friendship, now Lapdogs of both Klingons and Federation also joining their war against other Romulans, Klingons or Federation and the Entire Galaxy
Cardassians - Lapdogs of the Federation
Nah, I think you're exaggerating things a bit. you make it sound like there were no wars in the TV show.....
Nah, I think you're exaggerating things a bit. you make it sound like there were no wars in the TV show.....
Not exactly... in the TV series u don't see the Federation or Klingon Empire fighting a war with 100 other different factions at the same time while fighting the dominion, yet fighting each other while fighting the Dominion.
Klingons and the Federation are at war in this game.
Romulans killing each other so they become lapdogs to either Federation or Klingons
Here's a list of Factions they're also at war or have very hostile relations with... all of this while having their war at the same time
Voth
Elachi
Borg
Tholians
Hirogen
Breen
Species 8472 (aka Unidine in STO)
Fek'Ihri
Devidians
Iconians
Terran Empire
True Way
and more in the future... possibly Krenim, Kazons soon.
Nah, I think you're exaggerating things a bit. you make it sound like there were no wars in the TV show.....
I don't think oakland4life actually said that in their post. They were pointing out cultural values, never said anything about there not being any conflicts.
Not exactly... in the TV series u don't see the Federation or Klingon Empire fighting a war with 100 other different factions at the same time while fighting the dominion, yet fighting each other while fighting the Dominion.
Klingons and the Federation are at war in this game.
Romulans killing each other so they become lapdogs to either Federation or Klingons
Here's a list of Factions they're also at war or have very hostile relations with... all of this while having their war at the same time
Voth
Elachi
Borg
Tholians
Hirogen
Breen
Species 8472 (aka Unidine in STO)
Fek'Ihri
Devidians
Iconians
Terran Empire
True Way
and more in the future... possibly Krenim, Kazons soon.
Key phrase: "or hostile relations"
That pretty well sums up the Federation diplomatic stance regarding the Breen throughout TNG and into DS9.
And the Tholians since.... well we don't know when. Yeah, there were mentions of Tholian diplomats, but there were also mentions of Starfleet contingency plans in case of a Tholian attack.
And on your list:
Hirogen aren't a major threat, they aren't numerous, and they don't attack often.
Breen DON'T have an ongoing war with anyone..... all of the Breen conflicts are isolated incidents not sponsored by their government.
Elachi aren't powerful enough to threaten any faction in a major way, less so after the events in the Romulan storyline where you pretty much annihilate their foothold in the Beta Quadrant.
etc...
I think only the Tholians, Undine, and Borg are really serious threats. a lot of the others fit in the category of "people we don't like and sometimes shoot at".
I'm still trying to figure out how Romulans are killing each other at the behest of the Feds and Klingons. The only other Romulans I've killed are Tal'Shiar and Imperialists. You mean in PvP? Aren't all those PvP missions explicitly stated to be simulations?
And no, kodachikuno, I'm not ill. This isn't the first time I've put forth that opinion, either.
I'm still trying to figure out how Romulans are killing each other at the behest of the Feds and Klingons. The only other Romulans I've killed are Tal'Shiar and Imperialists. You mean in PvP? Aren't all those PvP missions explicitly stated to be simulations?
And no, kodachikuno, I'm not ill. This isn't the first time I've put forth that opinion, either.
The PvP missions aren't simulations now but there is talk of making them that. Or at least thats how I understand it.
We would not have to change a whole lot to add an Imperial faction; just say they are another faction in the civil war who is more hardline than D'tan and move NRC to the Flotilla and make another NRC up in Alpha Centari and then have current NRC be like Romulan DS9 after some sort of peace agreement like the Feds and Klingons have in Omega Leonis and the Dyson Sphere. The only difference would be that the Imperial arrival would be a different cut scene. It would even explain Rom rep for the canon.
We could have them still fight Hakeev and pals and still do some FEs to keep it from being too much stuff to do and ally with Feds and Klingons as a sub alliance to expedite transition to the new system. It would work less like joining them and more like a real alliance we just get to do the FEs as if we are actually ourselves and get some more exclusivity for the different factions.
Sorry guys I was trying to make a Foundry mission but it is not working as plan. Hopefully I have it ready for next Friday. Until them save your energy and go back to drink wine with your Klingons masters. :mad:
Sorry guys I was trying to make a Foundry mission but it is not working as plan. Hopefully I have it ready for next Friday. Until them save your energy and go back to drink wine with your Klingons masters. :mad:
Thank you for at least stating it's not another "STOFugitive". I would have been very disappointed if it was. Can't wait to see what you've made. But do try to make things make sense. Remans allying with Tal-Shiar (even if they're "only Tal-Shiar by name") isn't really in-line with what we've seen of Remans so far.
Support 90 degree arc limitation on BFaW! Save our ships from looking like flying disco balls of dumb!
The PvP missions aren't simulations now but there is talk of making them that. Or at least thats how I understand it.
We would not have to change a whole lot to add an Imperial faction; just say they are another faction in the civil war who is more hardline than D'tan and move NRC to the Flotilla and make another NRC up in Alpha Centari and then have current NRC be like Romulan DS9 after some sort of peace agreement like the Feds and Klingons have in Omega Leonis and the Dyson Sphere. The only difference would be that the Imperial arrival would be a different cut scene. It would even explain Rom rep for the canon.
We could have them still fight Hakeev and pals and still do some FEs to keep it from being too much stuff to do and ally with Feds and Klingons as a sub alliance to expedite transition to the new system. It would work less like joining them and more like a real alliance we just get to do the FEs as if we are actually ourselves and get some more exclusivity for the different factions.
Really? The Imperial faction would be Star Empire (alliance with U.F.P. and/or K.E. would be unlikely). The Republic NRC would stay at Dewa III, but the Imperial NRC would be on Rator III. Now, concerning the "DS9" idea, the main Republic Starbase would probably be at Rh'ihho Station, while the Star Empire equivalent would be at S'harien Station. I'm not sure where The Vault would be in all this (Social Zone for both Republic and Star Empire perhaps?).
Really? The Imperial faction would be Star Empire (alliance with U.F.P. and/or K.E. would be unlikely). The Republic NRC would stay at Dewa III, but the Imperial NRC would be on Rator III. Now, concerning the "DS9" idea, the main Republic Starbase would probably be at Rh'ihho Station, while the Star Empire equivalent would be at S'harien Station. I'm not sure where The Vault would be in all this (Social Zone for both Republic and Star Empire perhaps?).
You don't seriously think Obisek would open the Vault to RSE types, do you? afaik, the Vault is still held by "the Reman Resistance," which is now united with the New Romulan Republic.
You don't seriously think Obisek would open the Vault to RSE types, do you? afaik, the Vault is still held by "the Reman Resistance," which is now united with the New Romulan Republic.
If anything, the Vault should be the Romulan Republic version of Memory Alpha. It would be so much fun flying around that thing on a social map. they wouldn't even need to make a ground map for the crafting consoles. Just add them to the space interior map.
The Vault being a crafting center, for the Romulan Republic at least, is a good idea.
Even though the Reman Resistance has allied with the Romulan Republic, Obisek still talks about the RSE in a vaguely patriotic context from time to time; and remember, the Star Empire in this scenario would be fighting the portions of the Tal Shi'ar that are controlled/allied with the Iconians.
The Vault being a crafting center, for the Romulan Republic at least, is a good idea.
Even though the Reman Resistance has allied with the Romulan Republic, Obisek still talks about the RSE in a vaguely patriotic context from time to time; and remember, the Star Empire in this scenario would be fighting the portions of the Tal Shi'ar that are controlled/allied with the Iconians.
I'm curious to see where you get the idea that Obisek was "patriotic" about the RSE, when it was the RSE that kept the Remans as slaves and fodder to begin with. The only idea he likes is the Romulan Republic for a chance for Remans to be free and not be slaves as they were with the RSE.
Matter of fact, I recall no instance at all where Obisek even ponders about any "good days" under the yoke of the RSE.
Several of his quotes from the Romulan Arc missions, as well as "The Vault: Ensnared", don't have any particular beef against the Star Empire as a whole, but only against Sela, Hakeev, and the Tal Shi'ar. At least that is what I got out of it.
That pretty well sums up the Federation diplomatic stance regarding the Breen throughout TNG and into DS9.
And the Tholians since.... well we don't know when. Yeah, there were mentions of Tholian diplomats, but there were also mentions of Starfleet contingency plans in case of a Tholian attack.
And on your list:
Hirogen aren't a major threat, they aren't numerous, and they don't attack often.
Breen DON'T have an ongoing war with anyone..... all of the Breen conflicts are isolated incidents not sponsored by their government.
Elachi aren't powerful enough to threaten any faction in a major way, less so after the events in the Romulan storyline where you pretty much annihilate their foothold in the Beta Quadrant.
etc...
I think only the Tholians, Undine, and Borg are really serious threats. a lot of the others fit in the category of "people we don't like and sometimes shoot at".
Hirogen: While not threats themselfs to any major powers, neverless they're are Allied to Sela's Romulan Star Empire, When they joined Sela's side the Hirogen did not went along with her Fleet with 1 or 2 ships they came with a Armada of Ships which Sela gave them stable hunting grounds in or around Romulan Space in exchange for an Alliance with the Hirogen. u can bring up Sela's disappearance but that does not changed the fact that they're in Romulan space and they most likely have a planet of their own giving by Sela as a base of operations not to mention they are still mostly likely hostile to both the KDF/Feds and their puppets the Romulan Republic and the Hirogen still can do alot of damage, Highly doubt the Federation or the Klingons and the weak RR can send ships to exterminate the Hirgen since they're already have multiple conflicts with each other and the entire galaxy.
Breen: ... sure the Breen Confederacy sent a Fleet of ships into Deferi space for conflicts and so-called incidents that was not sponsored by their government. and if that's the case they sure did nothing to stop it... If a Federation Admiral brought a fleet of 200 Federation ships to the gamma quadrant and attacked Dominion planets while Starfleet did nothing about it do u think the Dominion would believe that this Admiral done this by himself or would they believe that the Federation have made a undeclared war against them?
Elachi: Interesting u say that the Elachi are not powerful enough, in terms of what Technology, Numbers? its seems their tech is equal to both the Federation and the Klingons.
Annihilated their foothold in the Beta Quadrant? Do u even know where they're from or where their Homeworld is? All we know that they operated in Subspace bases and like Hakeev's Tal'Shiar they are puppets of the Iconians besides that we know nothing of them except that they are hostile to any1.
Did you pay attention in the Elachi missions? It mentions that the Elachi don't live in normal space, that's why they built that base in the subspace rupture. They needed to make a staging area before thy could attack.
As a Reman in the republic,
Shall a Tal shiar ship appear in republic space, they will be fired upon. No quarter given.
Never again will the Reman knee bend to the empire.
Interesting side note. Just did the Fed mission into the Hobus system where you are given permission by the RSE to do a scientific survey, and are greeted by Reman warships still operating under the banner of the Empire. Admittedly they were doing some questionable mining and were likely aiding Obisek but the point is there are, rather shockingly, Remans still operating with/for the Corrupted husk of our once glorious Empire.
edit:
The exact wording of the mission text used the phrase "Romulan Government" but this mission also predates LoR I believe. So there is some wiggle room for interpretation.
Comments
A few Romulans need to face the reality that any secret police force will necessarily become nothing but a group of thugs with authority to be thugs, no matter if they are allied with a power like the Iconians or not. Take Joe McCarthy and multiply him a few times, and you have a Tal'Shiar-like group of people dedicated to enforcing conformity to some imaginary standard of loyalty.
A few Romulans also need to figure out that Reunification was first attempted by Romulans.
A few Romulans also need to remember that D'Tan studied with Spock, who was only half Vulcan and who deliberately REJECTED the absolute purgation of emotion known as "Kolinahr" BEFORE he started the contemporary Reunification movement.
A few Romulans need to realize that imperialism is contrary to the ideals of a people who became who they are because they did not wish to have to submit to enforced conformity, but wanted the freedom of self-determination.
The Romulan Star Empire is dead. In 200 years or so, the Republic is likely to become an empire (or at least that's the general assumption of Earth historians about how long it takes for a free society to become imperialistic and tyrannical), but for now, what is there worthy of resurrecting? Obeisance to a psychotic half-Romulan megalomaniac? Forcing others to adapt our ways? Conquest? These are not Romulan virtues.
You keep saying that, yet you seem unable to grasp the difference between military conquest of Vulcan by Romulans and Romulans adopting the teachings of Surak-which goes completely against what Romulans are.
D'Tan was being taught Vulcan culture, language etc by his parents.
As for Spock, he has always identified more with his Vulcan side, and continued to value ideals even into the JJ movies. That ritual you mention? It's rare even among Vulcans to go through with it. Spock came further than many Vulcans have in his acceptance of logic.
The Romulans value of militaristic strength, a strong central government, and imperialistic tendancies are more recent and longstanding cultural cornerstones and thus more relevant.
resurrecting? Were you playing prior to Legacy of Romulus? the older style of Romulans were still alive and well-with nary a sign of Republic-styled Romulans until New Romulus came out and suddenly Romulans started getting a complete rewrite that did a 180 to their character. I find it bizarre that some people insist on the notion that this was some kind of inevitable social change that we should have all seen coming. If anything prior to LoR, the political/societal changes the Romulans were having were more like the changes from Republican Rome to Imperial Rome-they were going in the exact opposite direction that LoR has us at now.
As for the 180 degree turn the romulans have made. I think, IMO, that with all the ruling romulan class in chaos, those who wanted something different, as aspect of romulan society that we have either never seen, or seen very little of, seen the chaos as a chance to set up their own government. Afterward, the allying with the FED/KDF, yeah i cant really back that play however what is donr is done and im not the writer here. i have no control over where/what the romulan government does, same IRL..... But that doesnt mean i cant have pride in being romulan in game nor does it mean i have to be some backstabbing romulan. Your forget, the klingons are not the only ones who value honor. The BIGGEST different between Romulans and kilingons is this:
Klingons value honor PERIOD. Honor to themselves, honor to their enemies...fools, honor to those they fight with who arent kilingon.....
Romulans value honor to themselves. their families ans that really it. To hell with everyone else. Until now.... Now they cant afford to keep to themselves. But if you think for a moment if it doesnt become a benifit the remain allyed to KDF/FED, the romulans SHOULDNT and WOULDNT continue to do so. Romulans love freedom and independence. If you think they would give up those two things to anyone, ANYONE, even other romulans, youve got another thing coming.
It might have been more reasonable to introduce a faction like this if there had been some precedent for the likes of the RR in STO, if not ST in general, but as it is it *is* a 180 on how they were before, even in STO. As I have said, prior to LoR and the NR adventure zone. the TNG style Romulans *were* the Romulans we had.
As for Romulan Honor, yes I'm aware. But my impression is that Romulan Honor has as at least as much to do with reputation (how you are seen to act) as it does how one actually acts.
Personally I think the ideal situation if Cryptic had to split the faction, would have been to have the more traditional Romulans (sorts like Tomalak & Co) ally with the KDF, and the more friendly reunification types go to the federation. The benefits would be that there would be that players would actually be able to choose to play a more traditional 'bad' Romulan if they wanted, the bizzare 'military alliance with two entities at war with each other openly and simultaneously' situation wouldn't exist, and it would actually tie into the KDF-Federation War rather nicely. And some weird oddities like Fed-Roms and KDF-Roms having different uniforms would no longer be oddities.
Instead we have a situation where at least half, if not the majority of the Romulan population disappears/turns into Tal Shiar overnight, a bunch of farmers & refugees barely scraping by go from flying T'Liss rustbuckets to fielding D'Deridex's and Scimitars and building their own original Ship designs in a month or two. And then turn around and forge a military alliance with both sides of a massive war-openly and simultaneously (something most ferengi don't seem greedy enough to try in STO) As is it just makes no sense as written IMO.
This is a topic that keeps on repeating itself here in the Romulan section of the forum and I must admit, I'm growing quite wary to discuss this over and over and over again.....so I'll keep it short and simple:
The RSE is no more. The Tal'Shiar is no more. Unfortunately, Romulus is no more as well. What was left of the RSE after Hobus, could've been picked up if it wasn't for corrupt leadership that opressed the people and fractured into factions that waged war against eachother for individual benefits in the biggest time of need for the Romulan people. A leadership so corrupt and spineless that turned their backs with their tails between their legs when the self proclaimed "Empress" appeared with her Hirogen dogs and took over. Do these people sound Romulan? Are these the Romulans you yearn for, the Romulans of old?
What exists now is Mol'Rihan and the Republic. In fact, the Republic is the only prosperous entity with a stable future the Romulan species have. For almost a year we've been building new and better future for the Romulans.
Time to face reality, noone but a few poor diluted and nostalgic souls wants the TNG RSE back. The Romulans are way too busy enjoying their freedom and builidng a better future for their species.
I do miss one thing from the old RSE though. Sela. I need Sela back so I can do the Hakeev maneuver on her as well and finally have closure.
No, actually, what goes completely against what Romulans are is any attempt to FORCE them to adopt the teachings of Surak -- or any other philosophy. FREEDOM is what it means to be Romulan. And Reunification? Why do you only see the one side and not the other? The point to Reunification is that both -- BOTH -- the Romulans and the Vulcans are incomplete. The Vulcans must make concessions, or it will never work, and they're apparently not yet willing to admit that they are hypocrites as regards the teachings they claim to revere.
And so? You believe that D'Tan is a crypto-Vulcan? That is so ridiculous as to be laughable.
He always identified more with his Vulcan side -- BEFORE he died and returned, after which there was a shift in his perspectives. Spock embraced Cthia, yes, but he chose not to embrace Kolinahr. Note the word "chose." It's quite important. In not going through with Kolinahr, Spock made a very potent statement: not that he was afraid he would fail, but that he saw no value in it.
Oh, yes, I was indeed playing before LoR. I had a Vulcan and an Orion both at the level cap before LoR came out. You may safely ignore my forum "Join Date." That's when I first posted in the fora, not when I started playing. But by asking that question, you have attempted to distract from the subject at hand, which is not how long I've been playing, but what the nature of "Romulanity" is. And then you simply beg the question by asserting that that they got "a complete rewrite that did a 180 to their character." Again, it's not a 180 to the TOS Romulans (and with the average Romulan lifespan being 250 years, some of the Romulans who lived in the TOS era are still alive; do you presume that they changed from what they were right along with the change in depicting Romulans in the later series?).
The Empire is dead. Long live the Republic.
Personally, I think the ideal situation would have been to make Romulans a full faction still divided, but not between alliance with the UFP or KE, but rather, divided as we are here: some favoring imperialism (and/or fascist bully boys), and some favoring freedom. I might actually enjoy PvP in STO then.
Contrary to what some people have said about my opinions, I don't actually have a problem with a RR-like faction, I have a problem with them being the *only* way to play a Romulan, when so much of their onscreen time was characterized by completely different attributes and behavior.
Yes, this would certainly be ideal.
Tal'Shiar/Reman Resistance/Romulan Nemesis uniform, pls.
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7403/13262502435_5604548f2c_o.png
Divide et impera.
It is good for everyone. Else.
---
No man, do not even mention that forsaken mission. That's good for noone, that mission is the biggest disgrace of STO.
Federation - Peace & Friendship
Klingons - Honor & Glory
Ferengi - Profit & Greed
Dominion - Control & Order
Borg - Assimilation & Perfection
Romulans - Suspicious & Deceitful
Cardassians - Militaristic & Territorial
STO Cultural Values
Federation - War against the Entire Galaxy
Klingons - War against the Entire Galaxy
Ferengi - Making profit from Belligerents that's at war with the Entire Galaxy
Dominion - In Hiding
Borg - No longer Assimilating but now adopting Extermination Policies, programing, whatever...
Romulans - Peace & Friendship, now Lapdogs of both Klingons and Federation also joining their war against other Romulans, Klingons or Federation and the Entire Galaxy
Cardassians - Lapdogs of the Federation
My character Tsin'xing
Not exactly... in the TV series u don't see the Federation or Klingon Empire fighting a war with 100 other different factions at the same time while fighting the dominion, yet fighting each other while fighting the Dominion.
Klingons and the Federation are at war in this game.
Romulans killing each other so they become lapdogs to either Federation or Klingons
Here's a list of Factions they're also at war or have very hostile relations with... all of this while having their war at the same time
Voth
Elachi
Borg
Tholians
Hirogen
Breen
Species 8472 (aka Unidine in STO)
Fek'Ihri
Devidians
Iconians
Terran Empire
True Way
and more in the future... possibly Krenim, Kazons soon.
That pretty well sums up the Federation diplomatic stance regarding the Breen throughout TNG and into DS9.
And the Tholians since.... well we don't know when. Yeah, there were mentions of Tholian diplomats, but there were also mentions of Starfleet contingency plans in case of a Tholian attack.
And on your list:
Hirogen aren't a major threat, they aren't numerous, and they don't attack often.
Breen DON'T have an ongoing war with anyone..... all of the Breen conflicts are isolated incidents not sponsored by their government.
Elachi aren't powerful enough to threaten any faction in a major way, less so after the events in the Romulan storyline where you pretty much annihilate their foothold in the Beta Quadrant.
etc...
I think only the Tholians, Undine, and Borg are really serious threats. a lot of the others fit in the category of "people we don't like and sometimes shoot at".
My character Tsin'xing
And no, kodachikuno, I'm not ill. This isn't the first time I've put forth that opinion, either.
The PvP missions aren't simulations now but there is talk of making them that. Or at least thats how I understand it.
We would not have to change a whole lot to add an Imperial faction; just say they are another faction in the civil war who is more hardline than D'tan and move NRC to the Flotilla and make another NRC up in Alpha Centari and then have current NRC be like Romulan DS9 after some sort of peace agreement like the Feds and Klingons have in Omega Leonis and the Dyson Sphere. The only difference would be that the Imperial arrival would be a different cut scene. It would even explain Rom rep for the canon.
We could have them still fight Hakeev and pals and still do some FEs to keep it from being too much stuff to do and ally with Feds and Klingons as a sub alliance to expedite transition to the new system. It would work less like joining them and more like a real alliance we just get to do the FEs as if we are actually ourselves and get some more exclusivity for the different factions.
Thank you for at least stating it's not another "STOFugitive". I would have been very disappointed if it was. Can't wait to see what you've made.
Support 90 degree arc limitation on BFaW! Save our ships from looking like flying disco balls of dumb!
Really? The Imperial faction would be Star Empire (alliance with U.F.P. and/or K.E. would be unlikely). The Republic NRC would stay at Dewa III, but the Imperial NRC would be on Rator III. Now, concerning the "DS9" idea, the main Republic Starbase would probably be at Rh'ihho Station, while the Star Empire equivalent would be at S'harien Station. I'm not sure where The Vault would be in all this (Social Zone for both Republic and Star Empire perhaps?).
Tal'Shiar/Reman Resistance/Romulan Nemesis uniform, pls.
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7403/13262502435_5604548f2c_o.png
You don't seriously think Obisek would open the Vault to RSE types, do you? afaik, the Vault is still held by "the Reman Resistance," which is now united with the New Romulan Republic.
My character Tsin'xing
Even though the Reman Resistance has allied with the Romulan Republic, Obisek still talks about the RSE in a vaguely patriotic context from time to time; and remember, the Star Empire in this scenario would be fighting the portions of the Tal Shi'ar that are controlled/allied with the Iconians.
Tal'Shiar/Reman Resistance/Romulan Nemesis uniform, pls.
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7403/13262502435_5604548f2c_o.png
I'm curious to see where you get the idea that Obisek was "patriotic" about the RSE, when it was the RSE that kept the Remans as slaves and fodder to begin with. The only idea he likes is the Romulan Republic for a chance for Remans to be free and not be slaves as they were with the RSE.
Matter of fact, I recall no instance at all where Obisek even ponders about any "good days" under the yoke of the RSE.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Tal'Shiar/Reman Resistance/Romulan Nemesis uniform, pls.
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7403/13262502435_5604548f2c_o.png
Hirogen: While not threats themselfs to any major powers, neverless they're are Allied to Sela's Romulan Star Empire, When they joined Sela's side the Hirogen did not went along with her Fleet with 1 or 2 ships they came with a Armada of Ships which Sela gave them stable hunting grounds in or around Romulan Space in exchange for an Alliance with the Hirogen. u can bring up Sela's disappearance but that does not changed the fact that they're in Romulan space and they most likely have a planet of their own giving by Sela as a base of operations not to mention they are still mostly likely hostile to both the KDF/Feds and their puppets the Romulan Republic and the Hirogen still can do alot of damage, Highly doubt the Federation or the Klingons and the weak RR can send ships to exterminate the Hirgen since they're already have multiple conflicts with each other and the entire galaxy.
Breen: ... sure the Breen Confederacy sent a Fleet of ships into Deferi space for conflicts and so-called incidents that was not sponsored by their government. and if that's the case they sure did nothing to stop it... If a Federation Admiral brought a fleet of 200 Federation ships to the gamma quadrant and attacked Dominion planets while Starfleet did nothing about it do u think the Dominion would believe that this Admiral done this by himself or would they believe that the Federation have made a undeclared war against them?
Elachi: Interesting u say that the Elachi are not powerful enough, in terms of what Technology, Numbers? its seems their tech is equal to both the Federation and the Klingons.
Annihilated their foothold in the Beta Quadrant? Do u even know where they're from or where their Homeworld is? All we know that they operated in Subspace bases and like Hakeev's Tal'Shiar they are puppets of the Iconians besides that we know nothing of them except that they are hostile to any1.
My character Tsin'xing
Interesting side note. Just did the Fed mission into the Hobus system where you are given permission by the RSE to do a scientific survey, and are greeted by Reman warships still operating under the banner of the Empire. Admittedly they were doing some questionable mining and were likely aiding Obisek but the point is there are, rather shockingly, Remans still operating with/for the Corrupted husk of our once glorious Empire.
edit:
The exact wording of the mission text used the phrase "Romulan Government" but this mission also predates LoR I believe. So there is some wiggle room for interpretation.