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The scary future of Escorts according to my speculation/ guess

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  • notrealednanotrealedna Member Posts: 1,028
    edited February 2014
    bpharma wrote: »
    Hey, fixed it in red for you :)

    Please continue to be a true ambassador from the PvP community and demonstrate why they should PvP with people like you around.

    better ambassador from pvp than a pve hero like you .Now go kill some borgs .
  • resoundingenvoyresoundingenvoy Member Posts: 439
    edited February 2014
    Last time I did an stf DAMAGE is all that matters.

    There's reasons records are held by beam ships and beam teams. DAT SPEED.

    Spike doesn't mean a thing in stfs, anyone who has ever played one should realize this.

    Pardon the slow reply, I lost track of the page count. :P

    Spikes matter for three reasons:

    1) The less time something has to shoot back if the spike can kill before the spike ends. At least cripple a target beyond recover so how low the later lesser damage is a moot point.

    2) Not so much in STFs because only shields heal there? However spikes are more effective then a constant DPS because it allows less time for a target to heal or recover. That is, a target that dead can't reach for miracle worker to cover the -3%hull, where as a engineer could if the damage was averaged out over the same duration.

    3) In theory spikes kill faster. Which means even if it has to burn cool downs, those cool downs can be recovered between reaiming, moving to a new target, or in the lull between the last target's death and when a new one arrives.

    Edit: A pure average doesn't cover all the variables.
  • resoundingenvoyresoundingenvoy Member Posts: 439
    edited February 2014
    For example:

    Let's some someone is attacking my engineer. With a pure DPS average, I'd have 5seconds left to live if I didn't do anything.

    Let's also say I have miracle work, engineering team, or tactical team is up in 2second. If I use any of those I'll live longer then 5seconds. Maybe long enough to do enough damage to win the fight.

    If my attacker spike it's damage (even at the cost of lower DPS later), I'm dead because I don't then have those 2 seconds to use miracle worker, engineering team, or tactical team.

    It's not as stark in PvE with just shield regeneration, but the same mechanic applies.


    Edit: To win a fight, it's not doing enough damage. It's doing enough damage before the other side makes cost more then you can pay.
  • hereticknight085hereticknight085 Member Posts: 3,783 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    better ambassador from pvp than a pve hero like you .Now go kill some borgs .

    At least bpharma is more polite to others, actually looks at their PoV, and has much better grammar and syntax. Also is more open minded, and actually knows what said person is talking about.

    You, I am not so sure of.
    It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once. B)
  • gr4v1t4rgr4v1t4r Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~Bluegeek

    Am I the only one that finds it odd that you consider what you call spamming FAW in a Scimitar erotic role-play? You got issues...
    Lost and Delirious... and Disenchanted too
    Apparently some forum posters have diplomatic immunity nowadays, where can I get mine?
    askray wrote: »
    Expressing my opinion isn't trolling but nice try. Besides, if I was you wouldn't know it ;P
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • notrealednanotrealedna Member Posts: 1,028
    edited February 2014
    This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~Bluegeek
  • notrealednanotrealedna Member Posts: 1,028
    edited February 2014
    This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~Bluegeek
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    first care to show me where I was banned.

    Ask again in about a day or two. :P
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • rylanadionysisrylanadionysis Member Posts: 3,359 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    There is a lot of love in this thread, man.
    Gold.jpg
    Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
    Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
    Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
  • fubbefubbe Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    o.o; Wow i just wanted to voice my fear, never imagined it would turn into this...
  • bpharmabpharma Member Posts: 2,022
    edited February 2014
    fubbe wrote: »
    o.o; Wow i just wanted to voice my fear, never imagined it would turn into this...

    It's worth mentioning that someone heard Gecko mention targeting computers for escorts (presumably for raptors too and some other ships) in the last podcast. I can't find it personally but it do trust the source.

    Gecko also clarified that it was DHCs he thought were over performing not escorts when he made that comment many months ago. He also at that time said beams were right where they should be back then and we all laughed, the fools we are! :P

    Personally I think the +10% defense stat on escorts is falling in value a little but that is due to when implemented as far as I know there was no accuracy mods, now we have a lot more.

    It's also worth mentioning adjudicatorhawk mentioned they were altering accuracy overflow and how that all works, maybe getting rid of it altogether. Couple all this with a skill revamp and kit cashvamp and it will be interesting to see where the game is going.

    All in all it does seem like the devs are investing more of the money into the game to completely change it. I think it was Gecko that mentioned the game now is closer to how they wanted it at launch and certainly some of the newer things (traits) have been slicker even if it is designed for paid advantage.

    So yeah hopefully that will get the thread back on track :)

    It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
    A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.

    Has damage got out of control?
    This is the last thing I will post.
  • twamtwam Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    no that is a pve hero...to be more precise low IQ pve hero because he can't read and understand a phrase, but you should know better the differences because it seems you are a pro at this.
    like someone gives a shet what you think ,not to mention that no one asked your opinion .


    oh yes he is open minded at spamming things without thinking

    That's quite enough with the flaming already. I'm not sure what you're trying to do here, but I am pretty sure this isn't the way to do it.

    And that stuff on the ACC overflow and hinted targetting computers is interesting. It implies that the entire ACC/DEF relation is on the table for revision; there definitely is great potential to make that system less convoluted. I do wonder, though, if they'll just revamp the entire system, in favour of a new one, or just tweak the existing mechanics.
  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    There is a lot of love in this thread, man.

    I could use a hug........
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

    R.I.P
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    bpharma wrote: »
    It's worth mentioning that someone heard Gecko mention targeting computers for escorts (presumably for raptors too and some other ships) in the last podcast. I can't find it personally but it do trust the source.

    I forgot about that - I asked in the other thread about that if it was in the first part and not the second art...cause I went through that second part play-by-play during my WTFUXXOR moment - lol. Don't know if that got answered there or not. Guess I could look...but that requires having some caffeine and nicotine - instead of doing this one eye closed stream of conscious stuff, eh?
  • tpalelenatpalelena Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    While I do not think escorts need anything special currently, they are not the biggest DPS anymore.

    A2B with techinicians is a broken skill that makes a BFW cruiser utterly the best in DPS. They even put my 12k dps escort to shame with it.

    Though at least the technicians cost a lot on the exchange, so this broken #### is not as popular as it would be otherwise.

    On the other hand, battlecruiser are now very good with Dual heavy cannons and cruiser commands. (Klingons can be happy finally)
    Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
  • robdmcrobdmc Member Posts: 1,619 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    I'm still not sure how he can still say that cannons needed to be nerfed with a straight face. Right now it seems all the big numbers are beams.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    robdmc wrote: »
    I'm still not sure how he can still say that cannons needed to be nerfed with a straight face. Right now it seems all the big numbers are beams.

    Beams have numbers because of content. Cannons just have numbers.
  • bpharmabpharma Member Posts: 2,022
    edited February 2014
    tpalelena wrote: »
    While I do not think escorts need anything special currently, they are not the biggest DPS anymore.

    A2B with techinicians is a broken skill that makes a BFW cruiser utterly the best in DPS. They even put my 12k dps escort to shame with it.

    Though at least the technicians cost a lot on the exchange, so this broken #### is not as popular as it would be otherwise.

    On the other hand, battlecruiser are now very good with Dual heavy cannons and cruiser commands. (Klingons can be happy finally)

    Highest dps ship at the moment is the Scimitar which is NOT a cruiser or an escort, I believe they class it as a dreadnought. Sure it's not far from a cruiser but I think it would be more accurate to call it a destroyer with an extra fore weapon.

    Incidentally did anyone else notice how similar the Scimitar is to the vet destroyer?

    As for A2B, most of the highest dps people do not use it to get the high numbers, reason being you lose out on the nukara T4 offense passive boost as well as the extra damage from AMP.

    Escorts with cannons are capable of upto 34k dps, that's in a team similar to the Scimitars, so if you're not getting over 12k you have the unfortunate privilege to be in the same group as me, I just suck with escorts and cannons :(

    It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
    A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.

    Has damage got out of control?
    This is the last thing I will post.
  • robdmcrobdmc Member Posts: 1,619 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    bpharma wrote: »
    Escorts with cannons are capable of upto 34k dps, that's in a team similar to the Scimitars, so if you're not getting over 12k you have the unfortunate privilege to be in the same group as me, I just suck with escorts and cannons :(

    I wouldn't worry about it too much. My cannon build on my escort usually sits at 16k in ise. I have gotten up to 24k in cse. This is with the FAE. I'm thinking about the Risian ship for the lt cmdr eng station. Wish there was a ship with a lt cmder eng with 5 tac consoles.
  • cryptkeeper0cryptkeeper0 Member Posts: 989 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    bpharma wrote: »
    Highest dps ship at the moment is the Scimitar which is NOT a cruiser or an escort, I believe they class it as a dreadnought. Sure it's not far from a cruiser but I think it would be more accurate to call it a destroyer with an extra fore weapon.

    Incidentally did anyone else notice how similar the Scimitar is to the vet destroyer?

    As for A2B, most of the highest dps people do not use it to get the high numbers, reason being you lose out on the nukara T4 offense passive boost as well as the extra damage from AMP.
    Its a dreadnought warbird... Its turn rate is only that of a sovie, about the same hp too. Also I think when they do make the fed dreadnought a fleet version they will add a extra for weapon minus one aft and maybe a hanger and a lt com uni. Along with the separation console the gal-x might become a beast to be reckoned with.



    Its extremely similar but the destroyer has better turn and 2 less weapons no hanger. Also less shields, which is why you don't see it very often I want to play my vet destroyer more often but, they need to buff raptors and then kling and rom vet ships before I'll put my foot in it. Which is a shame.

    Yes A2B isn't a the best for dps in all honesty just the easiest to attain high dps to do when you not very skilled at the game.

    There are ships with 5 tact slots and ability to get lt com in engi but they don't exist on fed side yet.
  • tpalelenatpalelena Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    My escorts range from 12-10 k average dps (For all the mission, not when they are spiking) and I can get an eng in a battlecruiser up to 10k average dps.


    But Aux 2 Bat ships make my ships feel as useless as a rainbow boat with mark X whites :rolleyes:
    Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
  • hereticknight085hereticknight085 Member Posts: 3,783 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    like someone gives a shet what you think ,not to mention that no one asked your opinion .


    oh yes he is open minded at spamming things without thinking

    Wow, so polite. It's no wonder so many of your accounts got suspended.
    twam wrote: »
    That's quite enough with the flaming already. I'm not sure what you're trying to do here, but I am pretty sure this isn't the way to do it.

    And that stuff on the ACC overflow and hinted targetting computers is interesting. It implies that the entire ACC/DEF relation is on the table for revision; there definitely is great potential to make that system less convoluted. I do wonder, though, if they'll just revamp the entire system, in favour of a new one, or just tweak the existing mechanics.

    Trolls will be trolls. They get off on trying to make others miserable.

    But back on topic: Yeah, it's interesting what Geko hinted at. But it's also unlikely. Escorts are already pretty balanced, and it will be difficult to buff/adjust them and still keep it fair.
    tpalelena wrote: »
    My escorts range from 12-10 k average dps (For all the mission, not when they are spiking) and I can get an eng in a battlecruiser up to 10k average dps.


    But Aux 2 Bat ships make my ships feel as useless as a rainbow boat with mark X whites :rolleyes:

    It's ok, I know your pain. I run a non-aux2bat cruiser, but I don't feel bad because mine can actually draw aggro away from those aux2bat ships due to my setup. So what if my DPS is half of theirs? It doesn't matter. I can tank soooo much more damage than they can because I have aux heals. Which I use. Copiously.

    I think I was in an ESTF once with jkname, and said person asked me what I picked a fight with because my damage taken was more than the entire rest of the team combined (around ~1 500k damage taken, ~ twice that healed). I was even holding threat so well, that there was a T'varo in there whose damage taken was so low, they could have gone the entire STF without healing and never died (IE their damage taken was less than their hull strength).

    YOU CAN STILL BE USEFUL!!! DON'T BE ASHAMED OF YOUR NON-AUX2BATNESS!!!
    It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once. B)
  • bluegeekbluegeek Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Captains, may I remind you please do not reply to posts that break forum rules?

    Report them to a Moderator instead, please.

    Thank you!
    My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here
    Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
  • cptapollocptapollo Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    well the main idea seems to be that the tanking hit a2b cruiser builds is disproportional to the dps gained, making escorts caps feel less useful? dudes rly? have you tried a useless sci???


    well a solution would be not a nerf or a buff, but just a change.
    weap power = more weap dmg
    shield power = more shield regen
    *the change instead of gaining 35% resistance at 125, u get a little bit for every point over... 25/50
    engine power = obviously speed, turn rate
    and also a side effect of this when moving u get the evasion stat to be harder to hit
    aux power = this effect some heals, buffs, cc skills
    *here's the big change, make it affect all skills! and also targeting.

    not as in no aux u cant use skills, but as in modifier, aux is supposed to be for scanners, repairs, buffs, heals, drains etc, right now only a few sci and even less engi skills are affected by it.

    more aux:
    better sensors - less misses/can actually detect some1 cloaked getting on u'r TRIBBLE to spike for example (this would also require starship sensors not just high aux), less chance to miss. Don't fuss, if on a escort with cannons, u'll want to get even at less then 1km and this isn't a nerf or buff, if u'r flying beams and want to stay away tho, this will help every1.

    all heals, resistance, buffs (and yes i do include attack patterns in this), cc skills, drains, subsystem targeting - better tanking or better dmg or better cc depending on which you combine.
    just take out the alpha/omega pattern proc on sci dmg skills alrdy, its been 2 years.... a number of them were nerfed useless because of this, and this idea wn't work otherwise.


    No/low aux power, would only mean less or no bonus, but a base stat would still proc with the skill.

    how would this help?

    well a2b would mean no bonuses from aux power to skills so beast dps but definitely lower defence on cruisers. higher power in shield will help little on dmg mitigation, but high heals and buffs (with extra stats from aux) is what a tank would make.

    this will also help bring back sci, with a few tweaks and a 2nd deflector it just might be helpful again

    finally tacs would get a bit of bonus on their patterns (i'm suggesting more dmg i must be crazy...) but actually not rly. either lover the base stat or make the cd longer on patterns, then add aux power bonus (this is not a nerf or buff, just redistributing stats to help you make diff builds.
    depending on build, and how you shuffle power u'd get either insane spikes with lower survivability or better survivability with more even dmg output, while the dps of both builds over the time of a battle would be the same.
    You can't have both, the whole point of the escort is to be able to cram every bit of dmg in the smallest amount of time on a priority enemy, with the downside that u can not sustain that dmg output all the time.
  • hereticknight085hereticknight085 Member Posts: 3,783 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    cptapollo wrote: »
    *snip*
    You can't have both, the whole point of the escort is to be able to cram every bit of dmg in the smallest amount of time on a priority enemy, with the downside that u can not sustain that dmg output all the time.

    I would comment on the rest of your post, but atm, it's too much for how tired I am. So I will forego that and simply comment on this last part, more specifically the part I highlighted.

    With an escort, you CAN sustain that massive damage spike. Just cycle CRF/CSV and APBs (for PvE) or APO (for PvP). An escort has a massive alpha and very VERY strong sustain if you build it right. I don't know why people seem to think escorts are for spike only with no sustainable DPS, when escorts I build can spike hard, and SUSTAIN said spike once I start cycling everything.
    It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once. B)
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    I would comment on the rest of your post, but atm, it's too much for how tired I am. So I will forego that and simply comment on this last part, more specifically the part I highlighted.

    With an escort, you CAN sustain that massive damage spike. Just cycle CRF/CSV and APBs (for PvE) or APO (for PvP). An escort has a massive alpha and very VERY strong sustain if you build it right. I don't know why people seem to think escorts are for spike only with no sustainable DPS, when escorts I build can spike hard, and SUSTAIN said spike once I start cycling everything.

    CSV/CRF only lasts for 10 secs, with a 15 secs CD on duplicate ability. Since you can't get past global, there's always gonna be a small lull inbetween cannon attacks. You could perhaps time a BO spike in there somewhere, or TS or something. But a sustained cannon attack, I don't see how it could be done.
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • bpharmabpharma Member Posts: 2,022
    edited February 2014
    Sorry heretic, you can't sustain spike, I mean it wouldn't be spike if it was sustained.

    You can get high levels of damage and CRF2x2 with APA will do some heavy damage. Funny enough CRF chained and focused on a target gives heavy pressure damage, far more than any A2B cruiser...it's just easier to escape lol.

    It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
    A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.

    Has damage got out of control?
    This is the last thing I will post.
  • hereticknight085hereticknight085 Member Posts: 3,783 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    CSV/CRF only lasts for 10 secs, with a 15 secs CD on duplicate ability. Since you can't get past global, there's always gonna be a small lull inbetween cannon attacks. You could perhaps time a BO spike in there somewhere, or TS or something. But a sustained cannon attack, I don't see how it could be done.

    If you cycle cannon abilities, there is only a 5 second downtime if you have two cannon buffs. It's comparative to the 5 (or 10, forget which) global that is on beam abilities as well. That 5 second downtime is maybe 1 salvo, which isn't that big. So that's how you sustain a cannon attack.

    However if you want 100% uptime, there is no ability that has the ability to do that (save EPtX abilities). Which means, looking at it from that PoV, there is no sustainable attack.
    bpharma wrote: »
    Sorry heretic, you can't sustain spike, I mean it wouldn't be spike if it was sustained.

    You can get high levels of damage and CRF2x2 with APA will do some heavy damage. Funny enough CRF chained and focused on a target gives heavy pressure damage, far more than any A2B cruiser...it's just easier to escape lol.

    Ok, you're right, I should have stated it differently. You can spike like a crazy TRIBBLE using APA3, FOMM3, TF2, etc, but that only gives you 30 second of insane spike (I would know, got one of my escorts up to 60k spike once using cannons back in S6).

    However, you can still sustain a huge amount of pressure damage, like you said, which is what I am arguing.
    It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once. B)
  • cptapollocptapollo Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    If you cycle cannon abilities, there is only a 5 second downtime if you have two cannon buffs. It's comparative to the 5 (or 10, forget which) global that is on beam abilities as well. That 5 second downtime is maybe 1 salvo, which isn't that big. So that's how you sustain a cannon attack.

    You can spike like a crazy TRIBBLE using APA3, FOMM3, TF2, etc, but that only gives you 30 second of insane spike (I would know, got one of my escorts up to 60k spike once using cannons back in S6).
    However, you can still sustain a huge amount of pressure damage, like you said, which is what I am arguing.

    yep that's what i'm saying, if there's the need, rather than just doing comparable dps, on an escort u have the ability to concentrate a lot of dmg output in a small amount of time -> spike dmg.

    this is very useful in a number of situations, only escorts can do this, but a large number of players dn't take this into account. that 60k spike and what i had mentioned about getting melted in 1 sec if caught off guard in pvp?

    ideas for developing the game are many, this one was both on topic with the thread (to help either with spike or flatting the graph damage output while getting some other bonuses), as well as tackling a few engi-sci stuff.
  • jack24bau3rjack24bau3r Member Posts: 451 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Alright, lets look at the escort vs cruiser argument from a PvE perspective:

    The most efficient way to beat pve queues is high numbers of sustainable dps. This is done best by bfaw cruisers/warbirds.

    Any variant/type of escort/escort build CANNOT match the dps of a proper beam cruiser/warbird.

    Any DHC variant/type of escort/escort build DEFINITELY CANNOT match the dps of a proper beam cruiser/warbird.

    BFAW is a superior mechanic to CSV or CRF.

    Cruisers/warbirds are a superior ship to Escorts.
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