Playing the universe's tiniest violin for escorts. People will keep playing escorts no matter what. Just like people will keep playing Cruisers and Science Vessels no matter what.
This game is easy. DPS is a non-issue when things die as quickly as they do. A difference of a few seconds when an enemy dies or not is trivial.
The only people who are ocd enough to care about escorts being 'outclassed' by cruisers are those who presently switch build-to-build to get the new flavor of the month, in which case they already make it abundantly clear they'll jump ship (literally) to continue their e-peen measuring contests.
Playing the universe's tiniest violin for escorts. People will keep playing escorts no matter what. Just like people will keep playing Cruisers and Science Vessels no matter what.
This game is easy. DPS is a non-issue when things die as quickly as they do. A difference of a few seconds when an enemy dies or not is trivial.
The only people who are ocd enough to care about escorts being 'outclassed' by cruisers are those who presently switch build-to-build to get the new flavor of the month, in which case they already make it abundantly clear they'll jump ship (literally) to continue their e-peen measuring contests.
Welcome to the Internet, where E-peen is all that matters, and of course in this game directly proportional to your dps.
Welcome to the Internet, where E-peen is all that matters
If you're boring, sure. What you propose is really going to be no different to how things are now. If people have to switch from escort to cruiser to get their dps jollies in, they will anyway. They have no love for escorts or for cruisers. Just dps. If dps is all they care about then it really doesn't matter what ship they're in.
People who like cruisers will still play cruisers. People who like escorts will still play escorts. DPS e-peen bores will still continue to jump ship to ship as builds get nerfed and new toys come out.
Geko has said more then once that he feels that cannons on Escorts are overpowered; but they could never reduce the cannons without a major nerd rage on the forum. The buffs to Cruisers and Science were put in place to try and get around needing to nerf Escort cannons. I do not expect to see any bonuses to Escorts.
and pretty much everyone said that Geko has no clue how this game works.Also he is bad at math (geometry ) since DHC = 45 degrees arc and are usually used on the dps class of ships which is the group called escorts and beams have more than 45 degrees arc and can deal alot more damage.
what happens in pvp (the part Geko hates the most):
you get 1 ship which spams faw (which is beams) and kills everything around it.1 player can destroy 5 in a matter of few seconds just because the person in charge with this game has not even a clue why escorts should do more damage than cruisers and sci ships and why DHC should do more damage than beams.
and pretty much everyone said that Geko has no clue how this game works.Also he is bad at math (geometry ) since DHC = 45 degrees arc and are usually used on the dps class of ships which is the group called escorts and beams have more than 45 degrees arc and can deal alot more damage.
what happens in pvp (the part Geko hates the most):
you get 1 ship which spams faw (which is beams) and kills everything around it.1 player can destroy 5 in a matter of few seconds just because the person in charge with this game has not even a clue why escorts should do more damage than cruisers and sci ships and why DHC should do more damage than beams.
Ok, the 45 degree firing arc on DHCs is a non-issue for Escorts because they turn on a dime. If you are losing DPS because you can't keep your Escort on target, you're a bad starship captain and should feel bad.
Secondly, you're talking about PvP, 1 ship uses FAW and kills 5 ships around it? Yeah, I'm calling shenanigans. PvP is all about burst, and Escorts rule the roost on burst. Cruisers can do more sustained DPS, sure, but ask any PvPer. Sustained DPS = Zero DPS. Burst is everything.
Ok, the 45 degree firing arc on DHCs is a non-issue for Escorts because they turn on a dime. If you are losing DPS because you can't keep your Escort on target, you're a bad starship captain and should feel bad.
Secondly, you're talking about PvP, 1 ship uses FAW and kills 5 ships around it? Yeah, I'm calling shenanigans. PvP is all about burst, and Escorts rule the roost on burst. Cruisers can do more sustained DPS, sure, but ask any PvPer. Sustained DPS = Zero DPS. Burst is everything.
So...you can keep 3 targets in your pitiful 45 degree line of sight near 100% of the time?
BS, you obviously only speak from what you think is right and not from a parser. You probably don't break 10k dps and thus should not criticize those that understand dps mechanics.
Stop trolling. Beams win, get a bloody parser and see it for yourself
Ok, the 45 degree firing arc on DHCs is a non-issue for Escorts because they turn on a dime. If you are losing DPS because you can't keep your Escort on target, you're a bad starship captain and should feel bad.
Secondly, you're talking about PvP, 1 ship uses FAW and kills 5 ships around it? Yeah, I'm calling shenanigans. PvP is all about burst, and Escorts rule the roost on burst. Cruisers can do more sustained DPS, sure, but ask any PvPer. Sustained DPS = Zero DPS. Burst is everything.
either Im a bad pilot or you dont know how to turn a cruiser or sci ship.I can out turn any escort in game simply by turning using reverse.Now since turn rate is not what makes the difference we get back at 45 degrees arc and how Geko has not even a clue what he s doing.
btw 60k spike damage from a scimitar and having a healer (thats cruiser) gone in 2-3 seconds through rsp look right in your and geko's opinion.I tell you if you want better cruiser do something about them popping in 2 seconds when other cruiser is using beams lol
Lol VD, it's sad you can guess when a thread is moved and where from by the posters in it...or maybe we just spend too much time on the forums.
I think one of the telling things is that there is no general consensus on certain things in this thread. Sure I'm not going to deny, beams are the kings of DPS but then DHCs and specifically with a DBB overload are the kings of burst.
I think one of the problems also is that the meta has shifted in a big way, we've all got used to doing things one way and certainly a lot of older escort pilots may have become lazy. Not used to working for their kills in a limited time frame or else something will kill them.
Another thing, sure ISE measures DPS well, it's great for dps measuring. If burst weapons are out dpsing in a test designed for dps measuring then there's some really epic problems. Is there a test for burst though? I mean sure you could test on your own but that's not a true test either so you'd need multiple debuffs and a target with some few million HP to take a full on burst strike as well as not die from the burst.
Honestly if escorts need anything it's for their turrets to be 45 degree forward facing and doing more damage than plink, plink, plink.
Lol VD, it's sad you can guess when a thread is moved and where from by the posters in it...or maybe we just spend too much time on the forums.
I think one of the telling things is that there is no general consensus on certain things in this thread. Sure I'm not going to deny, beams are the kings of DPS but then DHCs and specifically with a DBB overload are the kings of burst.
I think one of the problems also is that the meta has shifted in a big way, we've all got used to doing things one way and certainly a lot of older escort pilots may have become lazy. Not used to working for their kills in a limited time frame or else something will kill them.
Another thing, sure ISE measures DPS well, it's great for dps measuring. If burst weapons are out dpsing in a test designed for dps measuring then there's some really epic problems. Is there a test for burst though? I mean sure you could test on your own but that's not a true test either so you'd need multiple debuffs and a target with some few million HP to take a full on burst strike as well as not die from the burst.
Honestly if escorts need anything it's for their turrets to be 45 degree forward facing and doing more damage than plink, plink, plink.
Why?
Cruisers can do more dps, have higher shield mods, higher hull, have their own cruiser commands with a variety of uses, and have an additional weapon slot (generally speaking).
Escorts have a higher turn rate, and generally speaking better inertia.
Cruisers were even out dpsing escorts BEFORE cruiser commands came out. DHC's are a thing of the past for high dps builds. When you can do 30k in a cruiser without breaking a sweat, but have to bust your TRIBBLE to get 30k in an escort then you have a balance issue.
Spike damage means nothing in an stf compared to dps.
Escorts need something to compete with Cruisers on a dps level. Whether its a buff to dhcs or cannon mechanics, a buff to escorts themselves, an additional weapon slot, or some unique abilities, they do need something.
Why should flying a cruiser be a lot easier than flying an escort?
Note I'm not saying to nerf anything, nor do I think anything should be nerfed. Things should be buffed instead.
The content needs to be buffed...then trash DPS wouldn't be overwhelming and OP DPS...it would be trash DPS. Focused/Spike DPS would be required. Healing would be required.
Something I've railed against for over a decade would probably be required too...the Trinity.
But as much as I despise it, STO's the poster child for having it. There have been plenty of games that didn't need it...but STO's not one of them.
That is - unless - well, one accepts that it is supposed to be the most casual game out there - where there will never be any sort of balance...cause it's designed for "anybody" to be able to have a blast!
Precisely this.
It's been insinuated several times that the motivations behind the new features for Cruisers and Science Vessels is to help those ships get on par with Escorts. Because as it stands, as pretty much everyone has noticed, the advantages that Escorts have in their ability to project damage is unprecedented. Why have support ships when the damage dealers simply atomize the enemy faster than the enemy can effectively damage them?
So Escorts won't really be touched here. They won't get nerfed in any way, really. But they won't be getting any of these new features, either. They seem to do spectacularly fine with what they have now.
And really, these kinds of boosts to Cruisers and Science Vessels benefit Escorts, too, if indirectly. So it's not like Escorts are truly "getting nothing".
I've noticed something different as well. But in more than just the player ships. For instance, has anyone noticed how tough some ships are? Like the voth. And now the undine have a brand new update, which I assume after this new spanking episode, we're going to be fighting them to pieces soon.
Not only are other ships getting buffed, but the escorts are getting a nerf, as their firepower is not just the only thing needed now. You need cruisers to help keep you alive, and science ships to pick up the slack when the enemy gets all sciency.
Also, is it just me, or does anyone want to fly with the OP sometime? Cause that was an incredibly entertaining post. Sciency wiency...
I suppose my wells class then would be Timey Whimy?
I AM THE HARBINGER OF HOPE!
I AM THE SWORD OF THE RIGHTOUS!
Cruisers can do more dps, have higher shield mods, higher hull, have their own cruiser commands with a variety of uses, and have an additional weapon slot (generally speaking).
Escorts have a higher turn rate, and generally speaking better inertia.
Cruisers were even out dpsing escorts BEFORE cruiser commands came out. DHC's are a thing of the past for high dps builds. When you can do 30k in a cruiser without breaking a sweat, but have to bust your TRIBBLE to get 30k in an escort then you have a balance issue.
Spike damage means nothing in an stf compared to dps.
Escorts need something to compete with Cruisers on a dps level. Whether its a buff to dhcs or cannon mechanics, a buff to escorts themselves, an additional weapon slot, or some unique abilities, they do need something.
Why should flying a cruiser be a lot easier than flying an escort?
Note I'm not saying to nerf anything, nor do I think anything should be nerfed. Things should be buffed instead.
I suggest you re-read what I put. What's the highest dps a NON DHC escort has parsed? I ask because cannons are spike weapons, we don't exactly complain that single cannons are being out dps'd by beams?
Trying to make something designed for spiking compete with something designed for dpsing is just plain stupid and you know this. I mean this is why the preferred option for NWS is still DHCs and why if you're doing it with straight up dps you generally require people from 20k and upwards.
I mean kudos to Dennis for getting 34k with DHCs, he's a damn fine pilot to get that but trying to make something designed to spike fitted with spike weapons to out dps a ship designed to dps with weapons designed to dps is like asking an apple to be millionaires shortbread and calling it rubbish for not having chocolate on it.
Blablabla escort burst should be more dps, blablabla cruiser have more stats then an escort, blablabla
ONE big as giant ship (cruiser) SHOULD have more shields, more hull more dps then a blody itsy bitsy tiny fly (escort)
THAT DOESN'T CHANGE THE FACT THAT SPIKE DMG, TURN RATE AND SPEED MAKES UP FOR THAT:
escort-> in -> spike -> out -> recharge -> in -> spike -> out -> recharge
u don't go -> in -> spike -> sit there tank dps and recharge -> spike -> sit tank dps and recharge -> spike...
that's not an escorts job sitting there and tanking and dpsing is what a cruiser does
cruiser -> in -> dps, tank, and usually the command vessel
now in all this i dn't see sci. sci was supposed to be hull fragile, (experimental) high shield, experimental weapons (aux / weird procs) dps spike or neither oriented, with heals, weird as crowed control, siphon, or dmg skills to make up for lower weapon dmg and tanking potential and support their friendlies.
well **** that! in an endless stream of nerfes and idiotic tweaks sci became useless, and the escort crowd rant at every change to cruisers and sci, whether they don't understand an escorts role, or dn't want to lose a massive advantage over every1 else.
Trying to make something designed for spiking compete with something designed for dpsing is just plain stupid and...
And that's where I think the content needs a buff. I'd love an option that didn't involve the Trinity, but I'm not seeing it for the game at this point. The powercreep has reached the point one could run with turrets and git 'r done.
On one hand, it's awesome that the content only requires one thing - that anybody can do as long as they don't want to fly the ship they want...heh, okay - they can, but they may have to deal with folks laughing at them (I'm usually too busy laughing at myself to notice)...
...but it also kind of makes things stale.
With the ship swapping thing - if they had a period of time at the start of an instance before it did - even pugs could try to manage to switch over to cover what was needed...or...it being a social game, folks would have to get more social...
...if they were to add certain pseudo requirements to things - things that were better for that spike, better for trash DPS, better for tanking, better for Bill Nye's bag o' durty tricks, etc, etc, etc.
Actually one power i wouldn't mind seeing on Escorts, is somehting that dumps all threat.
Would make it a lot easier for us cruisers to do our supposed job.
Not to insult anyone, but they do have a agro clear. It's the best defense in the game!
It's called running away.
Nothing can fire at you if your not in range, and one the key abilities escorts have is the ability to move in and out of a fight. Before someone says it, yes, I know torpedoes will chase you. It's one of the things I gripe about in my Atrox.
Fight not going your way? Run away. Point your ship toward your target's back side or a 'T' with the way there facing, and punch it. Nothing but another escort is going to be able to chase another escort. Something slow like my Atrox isn't going to be able to get away from a escort. They're free to pick away at it at their leisure.
Probably the worst thing the run away DPS ever did for this game is train people to point, sit still, shoot, and just duke it out. Simply because it works. Now that's what it's trained people to do, doing anything else is almost viewed as a sin.
Escorts will be given a bonus similar to cruiser commands/secondary deflectors. They're saving it for last because it requires the most work in design and balance.
Probably the worst thing the run away DPS ever did for this game is train people to point, sit still, shoot, and just duke it out. Simply because it works. Now that's what it's trained people to do, doing anything else is almost viewed as a sin.
Which, imho, would be a fine thing to do as long as they had a pocket healer on them...or...they actually faced imminent demise for sitting there.
Escorts will be given a bonus similar to cruiser commands/secondary deflectors. They're saving it for last because it requires the most work in design and balance.
You mean ship types like Destroyers, Raptors, Corvettes and Dreadnoughts will get stuff before Escorts? I don't know, that seems unlikely.
Though I do want to see something unique for Destroyers. Their playstyle is too close to Escort playstyles. Same with Corvettes and Raptors.
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Playing the universe's tiniest violin for escorts. People will keep playing escorts no matter what. Just like people will keep playing Cruisers and Science Vessels no matter what.
This game is easy. DPS is a non-issue when things die as quickly as they do. A difference of a few seconds when an enemy dies or not is trivial.
The only people who are ocd enough to care about escorts being 'outclassed' by cruisers are those who presently switch build-to-build to get the new flavor of the month, in which case they already make it abundantly clear they'll jump ship (literally) to continue their e-peen measuring contests.
Welcome to the Internet, where E-peen is all that matters, and of course in this game directly proportional to your dps.
If you're boring, sure. What you propose is really going to be no different to how things are now. If people have to switch from escort to cruiser to get their dps jollies in, they will anyway. They have no love for escorts or for cruisers. Just dps. If dps is all they care about then it really doesn't matter what ship they're in.
People who like cruisers will still play cruisers. People who like escorts will still play escorts. DPS e-peen bores will still continue to jump ship to ship as builds get nerfed and new toys come out.
Lemme guess tanker and healer amirite?
Star Trek fan. I fly both escorts and cruisers and it really just depends on my mood on what I feel like playing at the time.
and pretty much everyone said that Geko has no clue how this game works.Also he is bad at math (geometry ) since DHC = 45 degrees arc and are usually used on the dps class of ships which is the group called escorts and beams have more than 45 degrees arc and can deal alot more damage.
what happens in pvp (the part Geko hates the most):
you get 1 ship which spams faw (which is beams) and kills everything around it.1 player can destroy 5 in a matter of few seconds just because the person in charge with this game has not even a clue why escorts should do more damage than cruisers and sci ships and why DHC should do more damage than beams.
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Ok, the 45 degree firing arc on DHCs is a non-issue for Escorts because they turn on a dime. If you are losing DPS because you can't keep your Escort on target, you're a bad starship captain and should feel bad.
Secondly, you're talking about PvP, 1 ship uses FAW and kills 5 ships around it? Yeah, I'm calling shenanigans. PvP is all about burst, and Escorts rule the roost on burst. Cruisers can do more sustained DPS, sure, but ask any PvPer. Sustained DPS = Zero DPS. Burst is everything.
^ this. Guess why Cruisers, Raiders and Science Vessels got new mechanics and buffs and Escorts not.
So...you can keep 3 targets in your pitiful 45 degree line of sight near 100% of the time?
BS, you obviously only speak from what you think is right and not from a parser. You probably don't break 10k dps and thus should not criticize those that understand dps mechanics.
Stop trolling. Beams win, get a bloody parser and see it for yourself
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
either Im a bad pilot or you dont know how to turn a cruiser or sci ship.I can out turn any escort in game simply by turning using reverse.Now since turn rate is not what makes the difference we get back at 45 degrees arc and how Geko has not even a clue what he s doing.
btw 60k spike damage from a scimitar and having a healer (thats cruiser) gone in 2-3 seconds through rsp look right in your and geko's opinion.I tell you if you want better cruiser do something about them popping in 2 seconds when other cruiser is using beams lol
I'm thinking 5/5/5 console layout
6 uni cmdr boffs stations
25 bonus power to each sub system
30 turn and. 30 impulse mod
100k hull
And 2.5 shield mod
Should make it at least be able to keep up.
A buff to dhcs and a escort unique mechanic would do the trick.
It needs a SBC (Scimitar Battle Cloak) to allow the firing of energy weapons...otherwise, no deal! :cool:
edit: BTW, I'm guessing this thread was moved from General Discussion...it's full of the "WINNING!" that can be found there.
I think one of the telling things is that there is no general consensus on certain things in this thread. Sure I'm not going to deny, beams are the kings of DPS but then DHCs and specifically with a DBB overload are the kings of burst.
I think one of the problems also is that the meta has shifted in a big way, we've all got used to doing things one way and certainly a lot of older escort pilots may have become lazy. Not used to working for their kills in a limited time frame or else something will kill them.
Another thing, sure ISE measures DPS well, it's great for dps measuring. If burst weapons are out dpsing in a test designed for dps measuring then there's some really epic problems. Is there a test for burst though? I mean sure you could test on your own but that's not a true test either so you'd need multiple debuffs and a target with some few million HP to take a full on burst strike as well as not die from the burst.
Honestly if escorts need anything it's for their turrets to be 45 degree forward facing and doing more damage than plink, plink, plink.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Why?
Cruisers can do more dps, have higher shield mods, higher hull, have their own cruiser commands with a variety of uses, and have an additional weapon slot (generally speaking).
Escorts have a higher turn rate, and generally speaking better inertia.
Cruisers were even out dpsing escorts BEFORE cruiser commands came out. DHC's are a thing of the past for high dps builds. When you can do 30k in a cruiser without breaking a sweat, but have to bust your TRIBBLE to get 30k in an escort then you have a balance issue.
Spike damage means nothing in an stf compared to dps.
Escorts need something to compete with Cruisers on a dps level. Whether its a buff to dhcs or cannon mechanics, a buff to escorts themselves, an additional weapon slot, or some unique abilities, they do need something.
Why should flying a cruiser be a lot easier than flying an escort?
Note I'm not saying to nerf anything, nor do I think anything should be nerfed. Things should be buffed instead.
Things = NPCs.
Things = Content.
The content needs to be buffed...then trash DPS wouldn't be overwhelming and OP DPS...it would be trash DPS. Focused/Spike DPS would be required. Healing would be required.
Something I've railed against for over a decade would probably be required too...the Trinity.
But as much as I despise it, STO's the poster child for having it. There have been plenty of games that didn't need it...but STO's not one of them.
That is - unless - well, one accepts that it is supposed to be the most casual game out there - where there will never be any sort of balance...cause it's designed for "anybody" to be able to have a blast!
I've noticed something different as well. But in more than just the player ships. For instance, has anyone noticed how tough some ships are? Like the voth. And now the undine have a brand new update, which I assume after this new spanking episode, we're going to be fighting them to pieces soon.
Not only are other ships getting buffed, but the escorts are getting a nerf, as their firepower is not just the only thing needed now. You need cruisers to help keep you alive, and science ships to pick up the slack when the enemy gets all sciency.
Also, is it just me, or does anyone want to fly with the OP sometime? Cause that was an incredibly entertaining post. Sciency wiency...
I suppose my wells class then would be Timey Whimy?
I AM THE SWORD OF THE RIGHTOUS!
I suggest you re-read what I put. What's the highest dps a NON DHC escort has parsed? I ask because cannons are spike weapons, we don't exactly complain that single cannons are being out dps'd by beams?
Trying to make something designed for spiking compete with something designed for dpsing is just plain stupid and you know this. I mean this is why the preferred option for NWS is still DHCs and why if you're doing it with straight up dps you generally require people from 20k and upwards.
I mean kudos to Dennis for getting 34k with DHCs, he's a damn fine pilot to get that but trying to make something designed to spike fitted with spike weapons to out dps a ship designed to dps with weapons designed to dps is like asking an apple to be millionaires shortbread and calling it rubbish for not having chocolate on it.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
ONE big as giant ship (cruiser) SHOULD have more shields, more hull more dps then a blody itsy bitsy tiny fly (escort)
THAT DOESN'T CHANGE THE FACT THAT SPIKE DMG, TURN RATE AND SPEED MAKES UP FOR THAT:
escort-> in -> spike -> out -> recharge -> in -> spike -> out -> recharge
u don't go -> in -> spike -> sit there tank dps and recharge -> spike -> sit tank dps and recharge -> spike...
that's not an escorts job sitting there and tanking and dpsing is what a cruiser does
cruiser -> in -> dps, tank, and usually the command vessel
now in all this i dn't see sci. sci was supposed to be hull fragile, (experimental) high shield, experimental weapons (aux / weird procs) dps spike or neither oriented, with heals, weird as crowed control, siphon, or dmg skills to make up for lower weapon dmg and tanking potential and support their friendlies.
well **** that! in an endless stream of nerfes and idiotic tweaks sci became useless, and the escort crowd rant at every change to cruisers and sci, whether they don't understand an escorts role, or dn't want to lose a massive advantage over every1 else.
And that's where I think the content needs a buff. I'd love an option that didn't involve the Trinity, but I'm not seeing it for the game at this point. The powercreep has reached the point one could run with turrets and git 'r done.
On one hand, it's awesome that the content only requires one thing - that anybody can do as long as they don't want to fly the ship they want...heh, okay - they can, but they may have to deal with folks laughing at them (I'm usually too busy laughing at myself to notice)...
...but it also kind of makes things stale.
With the ship swapping thing - if they had a period of time at the start of an instance before it did - even pugs could try to manage to switch over to cover what was needed...or...it being a social game, folks would have to get more social...
...if they were to add certain pseudo requirements to things - things that were better for that spike, better for trash DPS, better for tanking, better for Bill Nye's bag o' durty tricks, etc, etc, etc.
Not to insult anyone, but they do have a agro clear. It's the best defense in the game!
It's called running away.
Nothing can fire at you if your not in range, and one the key abilities escorts have is the ability to move in and out of a fight. Before someone says it, yes, I know torpedoes will chase you. It's one of the things I gripe about in my Atrox.
Fight not going your way? Run away. Point your ship toward your target's back side or a 'T' with the way there facing, and punch it. Nothing but another escort is going to be able to chase another escort. Something slow like my Atrox isn't going to be able to get away from a escort. They're free to pick away at it at their leisure.
Probably the worst thing the run away DPS ever did for this game is train people to point, sit still, shoot, and just duke it out. Simply because it works. Now that's what it's trained people to do, doing anything else is almost viewed as a sin.
Which, imho, would be a fine thing to do as long as they had a pocket healer on them...or...they actually faced imminent demise for sitting there.
You mean ship types like Destroyers, Raptors, Corvettes and Dreadnoughts will get stuff before Escorts? I don't know, that seems unlikely.
Though I do want to see something unique for Destroyers. Their playstyle is too close to Escort playstyles. Same with Corvettes and Raptors.
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Destroyer/Warship - 4/4 weapons
(Aquarius should be retcon'd as a Raider - Fed friendly name of course, ahem)
Raider - flanking
Attack Ship - 5/2 weapons