IS there any documentation that ANY of these NPC races were nerfed recently? The Voth? When were they nerfed?
Please show me the patch notes....
Shadow nerfs happen all the time. I have noticed the Voth aren't hitting nearly as hard as they used to, and their ability usage and timing is significantly derped.
Bulwarks don't spam their BOBFAWOMFGITHURTSSOMUCH combo as much anymore, if at all, and their usage of subnuc is almost gone. Also, I don't get the rather powerful GWs I used to.
And as for the Borg? Oh cmon, I KNOW you know that they have been nerfed to hell ever since S6 and S7. They used to be somewhat dangerous. But now, courtesy of power-creep, Spire Consoles, Romulans, and the reduced AI and overall capability, they're a joke.
the only buff needed is to enemy ai - give me a borg cube in any stf and i show you how resistance is futile
Give me a Sphere and I'll show you what pain really is. The Borg ships have the potential to be devastatingly powerful... but they're so stupid my Aquarius gets more done than they do. I think that really says something there.
As an escort, beamboat, scimitar, scienceship, torpboat, DPS, PvP, and PvE builder I can tell you three things that are absolute in this regard.
1. A beamboat, scimitar or not, has the highest sustained DPS in the game. Unless the match is about 30 seconds long, the beamboat will win over time.
2. Scimitars are the best beamboats because of their battlecloak, five tac consoles, and boff layout
3. An escort only wins in ONE category - single target short burst damage. Killshots or quick downs, but that lasts all of 4-6 volleys and then they are spent, whereas a beamer just keeps on trucking.
My most powerful DPS ships in order.
1. My 28k DPS scimitar (beams)
2. My 22k DPS avenger (beams)
3 My 18k DPS FAE (cannons)
4. My 17k DPS Dhelan (cannons)
I been doing this minmax stuff for a long time now, and thats about as high as I can even see myself getting at the current level of power creep. Sure there are those that can do better than that, but Id say thats a good benchmark/proof of the disparity between beamers and cannons (from the same player with the access/wealth for the top gear in the game)
I won't argue with anything in your post except for this one part:
...Killshots or quick downs, but that lasts all of 4-6 volleys and then they are spent,...
Escorts can easily maintain sustained DPS if built properly. Cannons, beams, doesn't matter. With their BOff layouts, they can cycle CRF or CSV along with APB and APO, and maintain high levels of damage with relative ease. I have flown escorts for quite a while, and I have never seen the supposed "down time" that players comment on with them.
Lots of people say that an escort can burst hard for 10 seconds, and then have a downtime of X. But I have built (and use) escorts and destroyers that can burst for 10 seconds, and then continue that burst until my target is gone. The only real "down time" I ever see is when FOMM and APA3 are on cd, and that's not restricted to just escorts.
I won't argue that beams have obscene DPS, but I stand by my statement that escorts really aren't as bad off as people like to say/think.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
1) Mercy! Would this thread have gotten half as long if it was "The scary future of cruisers according to my speculation/ guess"?
2) Why do escorts need new gear?
Escorts do and used to have their speed and turn rate to set them apart. If you don't know how to use that? You should probably be flying a science ship or a faster cruiser.
What do cruisers get? ...
...
...
Bridge officers?
What did science ships have? Sub-system targeting and sensor analysis. Which is great until you realize a really well build escort could kill a target faster then you could notice sub-system targeting or sensor analysis.
The thread topic makes it sound like all things were equal and secondary deflectors or com arrays are going to make thing so unfair to escorts. :P
1) Mercy! Would this thread have gotten half as long if it was "The scary future of cruisers according to my speculation/ guess"?
2) Why do escorts need new gear?
Escorts do and used to have their speed and turn rate to set them apart. If you don't know how to use that? You should probably be flying a science ship or a faster cruiser.
What do cruisers get? ...
...
...
Bridge officers?
What did science ships have? Sub-system targeting and sensor analysis. Which is great until you realize a really well build escort could kill a target faster then you could notice sub-system targeting or sensor analysis.
The thread topic makes it sound like all things were equal and secondary deflectors or com arrays are going to make thing so unfair to escorts. :P
You would be surprised how large of a difference BOff layout can make. But you are correct, and I have stated it a bunch of times already... escorts are not bad off at all. They are still very much viable and able to deal huge amounts of damage while staying alive quite well. OP just got scared because his damage dealer was suddenly getting out-damaged by a tank XD.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
1) Mercy! Would this thread have gotten half as long if it was "The scary future of cruisers according to my speculation/ guess"?
2) Why do escorts need new gear?
Escorts do and used to have their speed and turn rate to set them apart. If you don't know how to use that? You should probably be flying a science ship or a faster cruiser.
What do cruisers get? ...
...
...
Bridge officers?
What did science ships have? Sub-system targeting and sensor analysis. Which is great until you realize a really well build escort could kill a target faster then you could notice sub-system targeting or sensor analysis.
The thread topic makes it sound like all things were equal and secondary deflectors or com arrays are going to make thing so unfair to escorts. :P
Rofl.
Things are ALREADY unfair to escorts.
Cruisers out dps'ed escorts BEFORE comm arrays.
Cruisers have more weapons, higher hull, higher shield mod, and a more versatile boff layout. You can generally run EPTW3 and DEM3 while keeping both at global thanks to A2B.
Show me a parse of an ise that breaks 35k dps with dhcs. Cause beams do it and better ALL DAY.
Show me a parse of an ise that breaks 35k dps with dhcs. Cause beams do it and better ALL DAY.
What about a beam parse that doesn't involve firing on the Trans or Gate to pad the DPS? :P
It's one of the reasons I believe that they shouldn't be targetable until the Gens are down for the Trans and the Trans down for the Gate. Cause the beam guy can pad his DPS with them - while the cannon guy isn't going to be doing that...
What about a beam parse that doesn't involve firing on the Trans or Gate to pad the DPS? :P
It's one of the reasons I believe that they shouldn't be targetable until the Gens are down for the Trans and the Trans down for the Gate. Cause the beam guy can pad his DPS with them - while the cannon guy isn't going to be doing that...
Sure they are... CSV, shooting gate with anything you can while evasiving towards the second gate.
Shadow nerfs happen all the time. I have noticed the Voth aren't hitting nearly as hard as they used to, and their ability usage and timing is significantly derped.
Bulwarks don't spam their BOBFAWOMFGITHURTSSOMUCH combo as much anymore, if at all, and their usage of subnuc is almost gone. Also, I don't get the rather powerful GWs I used to.
And as for the Borg? Oh cmon, I KNOW you know that they have been nerfed to hell ever since S6 and S7. They used to be somewhat dangerous. But now, courtesy of power-creep, Spire Consoles, Romulans, and the reduced AI and overall capability, they're a joke.
Give me a Sphere and I'll show you what pain really is. The Borg ships have the potential to be devastatingly powerful... but they're so stupid my Aquarius gets more done than they do. I think that really says something there.
I won't argue with anything in your post except for this one part:
Escorts can easily maintain sustained DPS if built properly. Cannons, beams, doesn't matter. With their BOff layouts, they can cycle CRF or CSV along with APB and APO, and maintain high levels of damage with relative ease. I have flown escorts for quite a while, and I have never seen the supposed "down time" that players comment on with them.
Lots of people say that an escort can burst hard for 10 seconds, and then have a downtime of X. But I have built (and use) escorts and destroyers that can burst for 10 seconds, and then continue that burst until my target is gone. The only real "down time" I ever see is when FOMM and APA3 are on cd, and that's not restricted to just escorts.
I won't argue that beams have obscene DPS, but I stand by my statement that escorts really aren't as bad off as people like to say/think.
Hm from what I have seen the unbuffed times on cannons give lower results than beams, and I think thats where the skew occurs.
Buffed up cannons (even four DHCs) will simply outperform 8 arrays, been testing that for a very long time, but when the buff wear out those same well powered 8 BAs just run away with the damage.
So basically the beams bottom out at a higher point. Even though the cannons will always hit higher spike points, they simply cant keep up over time.
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Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
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Cruisers have more weapons, higher hull, higher shield mod, and a more versatile boff layout. You can generally run EPTW3 and DEM3 while keeping both at global thanks to A2B.
Show me a parse of an ise that breaks 35k dps with dhcs. Cause beams do it and better ALL DAY.
Assume damage is the only thing to care about?
Assuming that's not the design goal of cruisers?
I think your missing the entire use of doing damage.
Cannon damage can be spiked high enough that pure continuous DPS becomes academic. Doing damage assumes there is a target to do damage too.
A well built escort may not do as much damage DPS over the long haul. ... It doesn't to need. It can just spike it's damage and be done with a target, and moving onto the next while beams are still cranking the DPS meter.
Edit: To put it another way: If I did give you a parser output, know of one that will track kills and time spent per kill?
I would give escorts one buff that shouldnt affect pvp but would improve their survivability in STFs. Right now in order to do max dps on a cube (or anything big in an stf) you need to park your escort and sit there, firing nonstop. No it doesnt take skill to sit there but the mechanics of the game have dictated thats the best way to get continuious fire on the target. If you are moving at some point your going to have turn and lose the firing arc on your cannons. However sitting there basically leaves you a sitting duck, defense wise. So I propose that whatever defense rating an escort has while in motion he maintains while standing still. It shouldnt affect pvp since the only people sitting still there are those who are cloaked and afk.
The only other thing i see is something that would make an escorts burst dps as meaningful in stfs as it is in pvp. That would involve some kind of buff that only affects pve and not pvp (which while done in other MMOs has never been done here). Right now burst is not overly helpful in stfs, when compared to cruisers flying around in a circle and spamming BFaW (which doesnt require much more skill than sitting there firing your cannons).
Hm from what I have seen the unbuffed times on cannons give lower results than beams, and I think thats where the skew occurs.
Buffed up cannons (even four DHCs) will simply outperform 8 arrays, been testing that for a very long time, but when the buff wear out those same well powered 8 BAs just run away with the damage.
So basically the beams bottom out at a higher point. Even though the cannons will always hit higher spike points, they simply cant keep up over time.
Hm... You may be right. But from personal experience, I don't really agree on a few points.
I don't argue that 4 buffed up DHCs will out-damage ALL other weapons at full buffs. However when the buffs wear off, during your 5 second down time, your DHCs will get two cycles/volleys of two hits of ~16-1700. However, BAs during their 10 second non FAW downtime will get in two volleys of four hits for ~800-900. The damage there looks about equal as downtime goes.
So I think most of the damage lost in ENC-DPS is due to cannons not being on target at all times (during those 3 or 4 seconds you're turning to get your next target in line) that beams don't have to deal with.
However, if it was just a pew pew infinite HP target, I think they'd probably even out, with the cannons eventually getting ahead due to their obscene burst ability.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
I think your missing the entire use of doing damage.
Cannon damage can be spiked high enough that pure continuous DPS becomes academic. Doing damage assumes there is a target to do damage too.
A well built escort may not do as much damage DPS over the long haul. ... It doesn't to need. It can just spike it's damage and be done with a target, and moving onto the next while beams are still cranking the DPS meter.
Edit: To put it another way: If I did give you a parser output, know of one that will track kills and time spent per kill?
Last time I did an stf DAMAGE is all that matters.
There's reasons records are held by beam ships and beam teams. DAT SPEED.
Spike doesn't mean a thing in stfs, anyone who has ever played one should realize this.
Last time I did an stf DAMAGE is all that matters.
There's reasons records are held by beam ships and beam teams. DAT SPEED.
Spike doesn't mean a thing in stfs, anyone who has ever played one should realize this.
But this is not specifically about STFs, stop being narrow minded and try thinking about something other than the dps tables. Cannons spike and generally you have greater control where that damage is focused, hence why even 20/30k people still tends to use them in NWS, it's the safer bet then having to rely on the whole team doing enough pressure damage.
As for escorts as a ship class, they're not going to be that far behind anything else, I know my JHDC is pushing 30k, hopefully a little tweak will push it over and there's no reason that could not be used on an escort. It has the same layout as them, you just switch your spike cannons for pressure beams.
Sure they are... CSV, shooting gate with anything you can while evasiving towards the second gate.
It would be interesting, imho - to grab one of those mega parses, pop open Notepad++, pull the damage from the Trans and Gate out (before they're "meant" to take damage), to see what that does to the DPS...to see how much is padded.
Blablabla escort burst should be more dps, blablabla cruiser have more stats then an escort, blablabla
ONE big as giant ship (cruiser) SHOULD have more shields, more hull more dps then a blody itsy bitsy tiny fly (escort)
THAT DOESN'T CHANGE THE FACT THAT SPIKE DMG, TURN RATE AND SPEED MAKES UP FOR THAT:
escort-> in -> spike -> out -> recharge -> in -> spike -> out -> recharge
u don't go -> in -> spike -> sit there tank dps and recharge -> spike -> sit tank dps and recharge -> spike...
that's not an escorts job sitting there and tanking and dpsing is what a cruiser does
cruiser -> in -> dps, tank, and usually the command vessel
now in all this i dn't see sci. sci was supposed to be hull fragile, (experimental) high shield, experimental weapons (aux / weird procs) dps spike or neither oriented, with heals, weird as crowed control, siphon, or dmg skills to make up for lower weapon dmg and tanking potential and support their friendlies.
well **** that! in an endless stream of nerfes and idiotic tweaks sci became useless, and the escort crowd rant at every change to cruisers and sci, whether they don't understand an escorts role, or dn't want to lose a massive advantage over every1 else.
you are probably found on drozana and dentals "troll" you right?
Actually one power i wouldn't mind seeing on Escorts, is somehting that dumps all threat.
Would make it a lot easier for us cruisers to do our supposed job.
If the tank you are running with can't hold aggro then they need to get a better build.
My aggro tank currently runs 6 points in threat gen, a +threat sci console and uses the +threat cruiser command. I have zero problems drawing aggro away from teammates, in fact I have had Cubes in Khitomer come after me from the other side of the map. I pull aggro away from the oh-so-popular A2B builds.
If I somehow need to generate even more threat I keep an extra +threat console in my inventory that can be slotted in on the fly, and if that's not enough I can always pull out the APD+Jem Hadar DoFF and get another bonus to threat. So far neither have been necessary.
Why are people who never pvp even posting in this topic ?
Last I checked game mechanics and the way things work has absolutely nothing to do with whether it is used on you or on an NPC.
Besides some people think PvPers being the minority shouldn't have a say in most of what happens in the game. Doesn't sound fair but it's as good as what you say about people who don't PvP shouldn't post in topics no?
Do you know why PvPers stick to the PvP forums when discussing mechanics that REALLY should be in these forums? Do you know why some people even left the PvP forums and generally stick to this one?
It's because PvPers only care about that area of the game, some care about balance in the wider game and you see them in this forum, most do not.
But this is not specifically about STFs, stop being narrow minded and try thinking about something other than the dps tables. Cannons spike and generally you have greater control where that damage is focused, hence why even 20/30k people still tends to use them in NWS, it's the safer bet then having to rely on the whole team doing enough pressure damage.
As for escorts as a ship class, they're not going to be that far behind anything else, I know my JHDC is pushing 30k, hopefully a little tweak will push it over and there's no reason that could not be used on an escort. It has the same layout as them, you just switch your spike cannons for pressure beams.
Ok. Escort with beams > cruiser with beams. Here's why:
Beams work better with a high eng layout, (2a2b dem3 eptw3). Cruisers will be able to do that, escorts won't since most of them are tac heavy. Cruisers have an extra weapon slot than escorts. Cruisers have a higher hull and shield mod than escorts. Cruisers have cruiser commands.
Escorts have turn rate and inertia. With beams that means NOTHING, unless of course you suck at moving around.
Of course dhcs are the weapon of choice in nws, spike and cc is what matters. Enemy wcb is what does most of the work anyways.
Heh, it's annoying for me to parse since I changed AV - have to disable it because of false positives on the plugins for ACT. But let's see what we've got here, eh?
It's curious, too - based on the name of the file, where you guys are looking for damage. The 53.44 would suggest Attack (Out) rather than Outgoing Damage. So it's definitely a case of not including pet damage in "quoting" DPS, which always struck me odd as some doing that and some not. It's part of the ship, eh?
Guess I'll look at both.
So, Just Mal: 53,412.25 DPS
Mal 'n Drones: 57,204.40 DPS
That's what it's telling me for the overall.
Let's start by removing any Gateway hits while a Trans is still around, eh?
So, Just Mal: 48,475.69 DPS
Mal 'n Drones: 51,157.88 DPS
Meaning a difference of...
So, Just Mal: 4,936.56 DPS (9.24% of the DPS as padding)
Mal 'n Drones: 6,046.52 DPS (10.57% of the DPS as padding)
Let's move on to removing Transformer hits while a Gen is still around, eh?
It's nifty that each of the Gens is tagged individually, so you can tell which Gens are which (same for the Trans). So for this, we know that 38904, 38906, 38907, & 38908 are the first four Gens while 38912, 38913, 38898, & 38899 are the second four Gens. The first Trans is 38901 and the second is 38903.
So, Just Mal: 44,869.82 DPS
Mal 'n Drones: 47,278.41 DPS
Meaning an overall difference (compared to the first numbers) of...
So, Just Mal: 8,542.43 DPS (15.99% of the DPS as padding)
Mal 'n Drones: 9,925.99 DPS (17.35% of the DPS as padding)
That's still almost 45k DPS without the padding - honestly, a number higher than I expected. But it is a truer number than the 53.4k DPS number...
It's one of the reasons I mentioned having the Trans untargetable until the Gens are down and having the Gate untargetable until the Trans are down. One could just look at the numbers and have the numbers be what they are, without having to take into consideration any padding that might have taken place...
...and it would give a truer base for any of the cannon/torp folks to make their arguments, eh? Instead of them pushing for a boost on their numbers, resulting in them doing more damage than they should...and...making even more of a mess over in PvP.
Call it Multiple Programmer Disorder or Dissociative Iteration Disorder (no offense intended to anybody with MPD/DID)...
But take a look at the content, eh?
Then consider the following:
Eng FAW Cruiser (TANK!)
2x Tac Escort - switching between CSV and CRF depending on Trash/Boss (DPS!)
Sci Sci Vessel - debuffing and damage (DPS/Debuffs!)
Sci Carrier/Sci Cruiser - healing (HEALS!)
Heck, even with the new DSDs, eh?
They've got all these mechanics that support a Trinity...but they've got all this content that doesn't.
Either they should pick a path or they should support both paths...not this the right hand is doing X while the left hand is doing Y, eh?
Well said
However the overwhelming majority totlly rejects the Trinity especialy cruiser players
The faster cryptic leaves the trinity behind the better off the game will be
the team doesnt even need crosshealing at all in Pve as long as a competent cruiser driver is around that can take and hold agro
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Why are people who never pvp even posting in this topic ?
you are probably found on drozana and dentals "troll" you right?
your typical ignorant "i want more dmg" sto player here
i've played this game on and of for years, and the problem has been the same for years,
if you have any problem with what i wrote jump into pvp and see for your self instead of making ill conceived assumptions.
i base my statement on every time i get 1 volleyed in a sci by a decloaking escort, or the ridiculous survivability, dmg spikes and cooldowns when i jump in an escort (some more then others).
as for pve?
or the fact i can tank just about any pve miss in an escort,
having sci around may only be useful in pugs if a newbie screws something up to have a GW to throw down, otherwise a complete waste of dps
and a cruiser? just throw everything to make it dish out as much dmg as possible and good to go! pffft tank ... just lmao
but since your post was so rational and well made i've decided to change my ways of thinking and decide you are right!
parking my char on drozana closing the game and not giving it a second thought for another few months will certainly help pay the bills there at cryptic and pw. well they won't care either i guess plenty of morons to buy they packs.
However the overwhelming majority totlly rejects the Trinity especialy cruiser players
But that's kind of the thing (and I can't believe I'm saying this, since I despise the Trinity in gaming - lol), with content diversity - Cruiserjocks could still perform any of the Trinity roles.
There could be Content X at Difficulty A, where folks can run whatever and have a blast. You kick that Difficulty up to C or harder; and now you're looking at where you may want to have Tacs in Cruisers - cause even with a dedicated healer, Tacs in Escorts would get shredded.
There could be Context Y at Difficulty A, where folks can run whatever and have a blast. You kick that Difficulty up to C or harder; and now you're looking at where you may want to have everybody in Escorts, Temporal Sci, Sci Destroyers, etc - because you need more zip to get around to handle what's going on than you need outright tank like you did with Content X.
Etc, etc, etc...so various Cruiserjocks could have a blast regardless with Content X - while they'd still be able to have a blast at certain levels of Difficulty with Content Y. A bunch of different permutations...and an actual robust endgame.
Cryptic wants folks to buy a bunch of different ships - they've changed it so folks can buy more ships - they're working out the kinks on the load switching...etc, etc, etc. But where is the actual Content diversity for any of that? IMHO, they've focused too much on anybody can have a blast - which means that many folks will just run whatever to do everything, because it's going to be good enough and that folks that want to min/max are just going to run a very limited number of builds because there's no diversity requiring a diverse selection of builds.
Ok. Escort with beams > cruiser with beams. Here's why:
Beams work better with a high eng layout, (2a2b dem3 eptw3). Cruisers will be able to do that, escorts won't since most of them are tac heavy. Cruisers have an extra weapon slot than escorts. Cruisers have a higher hull and shield mod than escorts. Cruisers have cruiser commands.
Escorts have turn rate and inertia. With beams that means NOTHING, unless of course you suck at moving around.
Of course dhcs are the weapon of choice in nws, spike and cc is what matters. Enemy wcb is what does most of the work anyways.
Escorts also have higher impulse mods which means they close the distance faster. A lot of escorts also have enough engineering to hit their overcap for beam weapons, remember it is EPSxfiring cycle time.
For most people that means you only need to get to 160s in terms of weapon power, EptW1 gives +22 and leech with 9 ranks in flow caps gives +16 that will take you to +38 on top of whatever bonus you get from warp core potential and weapon performance which will usually get you to the overcap you need.
The limiting factors at the top end and the difference is mostly down to speed at getting to targets and positioning. The higher impulse and turn help massively for escorts, the rest is piloting. This is why Mal with good reason was wanting to give the fleet Arkif a try as the loss of one beam could possibly have been made up for by the speed and turn increase over the scimitar. It also had the exact boff positions he was using so it was no loss for him there.
Anyway VD the dps channels have their own standardised combat log reader. If I can find the link I will post it. Having said that the padding as you call it doesn't change the time too much, sure the dps number might drop but it doesn't change the fact that this content is being completed so fast.
Here this is the parser we use, it's standardised and more or less DPS channel approved and run, big thanks to omegashoker
Anyway VD the dps channels have their own standardised combat log reader. If I can find the link I will post it. Having said that the padding as you call it doesn't change the time too much, sure the dps number might drop but it doesn't change the fact that this content is being completed so fast.
Here this is the parser we use, it's standardised and more or less DPS channel approved and run, big thanks to omegashoker
It's curious how much higher the DPS shows with that compared to using the Hilbert plugin with ACT. It's handling the encounter duration differently, eh? It's going with Time in Combat vs. Encounter Duration - so it's producing a higher DPS. The actual parse for his first to last shot involves ~118s, but this is doing the calc on 110s instead. If I grab the fourth log (1st was the download, 2nd was pulling everybody but Mal, 3rd was pulling the Gateway while Trans were up, and 4th was pulling the Trans while Gens were up)...it drops it down to 98s - creating vastly different numbers.
But that brings up another thing - folks not only using different parsers, but with ACT - folks are using different plugins too.
BTW, nifty - this doesn't throw any false positives for my AV.
Comments
But take a look at the content, eh?
Then consider the following:
Eng FAW Cruiser (TANK!)
2x Tac Escort - switching between CSV and CRF depending on Trash/Boss (DPS!)
Sci Sci Vessel - debuffing and damage (DPS/Debuffs!)
Sci Carrier/Sci Cruiser - healing (HEALS!)
Heck, even with the new DSDs, eh?
They've got all these mechanics that support a Trinity...but they've got all this content that doesn't.
Either they should pick a path or they should support both paths...not this the right hand is doing X while the left hand is doing Y, eh?
Shadow nerfs happen all the time. I have noticed the Voth aren't hitting nearly as hard as they used to, and their ability usage and timing is significantly derped.
Bulwarks don't spam their BOBFAWOMFGITHURTSSOMUCH combo as much anymore, if at all, and their usage of subnuc is almost gone. Also, I don't get the rather powerful GWs I used to.
And as for the Borg? Oh cmon, I KNOW you know that they have been nerfed to hell ever since S6 and S7. They used to be somewhat dangerous. But now, courtesy of power-creep, Spire Consoles, Romulans, and the reduced AI and overall capability, they're a joke.
Give me a Sphere and I'll show you what pain really is. The Borg ships have the potential to be devastatingly powerful... but they're so stupid my Aquarius gets more done than they do. I think that really says something there.
I won't argue with anything in your post except for this one part:
Escorts can easily maintain sustained DPS if built properly. Cannons, beams, doesn't matter. With their BOff layouts, they can cycle CRF or CSV along with APB and APO, and maintain high levels of damage with relative ease. I have flown escorts for quite a while, and I have never seen the supposed "down time" that players comment on with them.
Lots of people say that an escort can burst hard for 10 seconds, and then have a downtime of X. But I have built (and use) escorts and destroyers that can burst for 10 seconds, and then continue that burst until my target is gone. The only real "down time" I ever see is when FOMM and APA3 are on cd, and that's not restricted to just escorts.
I won't argue that beams have obscene DPS, but I stand by my statement that escorts really aren't as bad off as people like to say/think.
1) Mercy! Would this thread have gotten half as long if it was "The scary future of cruisers according to my speculation/ guess"?
2) Why do escorts need new gear?
Escorts do and used to have their speed and turn rate to set them apart. If you don't know how to use that? You should probably be flying a science ship or a faster cruiser.
What do cruisers get? ...
...
...
Bridge officers?
What did science ships have? Sub-system targeting and sensor analysis. Which is great until you realize a really well build escort could kill a target faster then you could notice sub-system targeting or sensor analysis.
The thread topic makes it sound like all things were equal and secondary deflectors or com arrays are going to make thing so unfair to escorts. :P
You would be surprised how large of a difference BOff layout can make. But you are correct, and I have stated it a bunch of times already... escorts are not bad off at all. They are still very much viable and able to deal huge amounts of damage while staying alive quite well. OP just got scared because his damage dealer was suddenly getting out-damaged by a tank XD.
Though it was almost like you mean to say *gasp* something like attack pattern omega might do a tad too much in just one slot? :P
I vote against that.
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I know. I was just respoding to your post.
Rofl.
Things are ALREADY unfair to escorts.
Cruisers out dps'ed escorts BEFORE comm arrays.
Cruisers have more weapons, higher hull, higher shield mod, and a more versatile boff layout. You can generally run EPTW3 and DEM3 while keeping both at global thanks to A2B.
Show me a parse of an ise that breaks 35k dps with dhcs. Cause beams do it and better ALL DAY.
What about a beam parse that doesn't involve firing on the Trans or Gate to pad the DPS? :P
It's one of the reasons I believe that they shouldn't be targetable until the Gens are down for the Trans and the Trans down for the Gate. Cause the beam guy can pad his DPS with them - while the cannon guy isn't going to be doing that...
Sure they are... CSV, shooting gate with anything you can while evasiving towards the second gate.
Hm from what I have seen the unbuffed times on cannons give lower results than beams, and I think thats where the skew occurs.
Buffed up cannons (even four DHCs) will simply outperform 8 arrays, been testing that for a very long time, but when the buff wear out those same well powered 8 BAs just run away with the damage.
So basically the beams bottom out at a higher point. Even though the cannons will always hit higher spike points, they simply cant keep up over time.
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Assume damage is the only thing to care about?
Assuming that's not the design goal of cruisers?
I think your missing the entire use of doing damage.
Cannon damage can be spiked high enough that pure continuous DPS becomes academic. Doing damage assumes there is a target to do damage too.
A well built escort may not do as much damage DPS over the long haul. ... It doesn't to need. It can just spike it's damage and be done with a target, and moving onto the next while beams are still cranking the DPS meter.
Edit: To put it another way: If I did give you a parser output, know of one that will track kills and time spent per kill?
The only other thing i see is something that would make an escorts burst dps as meaningful in stfs as it is in pvp. That would involve some kind of buff that only affects pve and not pvp (which while done in other MMOs has never been done here). Right now burst is not overly helpful in stfs, when compared to cruisers flying around in a circle and spamming BFaW (which doesnt require much more skill than sitting there firing your cannons).
Hm... You may be right. But from personal experience, I don't really agree on a few points.
I don't argue that 4 buffed up DHCs will out-damage ALL other weapons at full buffs. However when the buffs wear off, during your 5 second down time, your DHCs will get two cycles/volleys of two hits of ~16-1700. However, BAs during their 10 second non FAW downtime will get in two volleys of four hits for ~800-900. The damage there looks about equal as downtime goes.
So I think most of the damage lost in ENC-DPS is due to cannons not being on target at all times (during those 3 or 4 seconds you're turning to get your next target in line) that beams don't have to deal with.
However, if it was just a pew pew infinite HP target, I think they'd probably even out, with the cannons eventually getting ahead due to their obscene burst ability.
Last time I did an stf DAMAGE is all that matters.
There's reasons records are held by beam ships and beam teams. DAT SPEED.
Spike doesn't mean a thing in stfs, anyone who has ever played one should realize this.
But this is not specifically about STFs, stop being narrow minded and try thinking about something other than the dps tables. Cannons spike and generally you have greater control where that damage is focused, hence why even 20/30k people still tends to use them in NWS, it's the safer bet then having to rely on the whole team doing enough pressure damage.
As for escorts as a ship class, they're not going to be that far behind anything else, I know my JHDC is pushing 30k, hopefully a little tweak will push it over and there's no reason that could not be used on an escort. It has the same layout as them, you just switch your spike cannons for pressure beams.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
It would be interesting, imho - to grab one of those mega parses, pop open Notepad++, pull the damage from the Trans and Gate out (before they're "meant" to take damage), to see what that does to the DPS...to see how much is padded.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/w9jkc6ivw7wsb2y/ise%20record%20dps%2053.44k.log
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
you are probably found on drozana and dentals "troll" you right?
If the tank you are running with can't hold aggro then they need to get a better build.
My aggro tank currently runs 6 points in threat gen, a +threat sci console and uses the +threat cruiser command. I have zero problems drawing aggro away from teammates, in fact I have had Cubes in Khitomer come after me from the other side of the map. I pull aggro away from the oh-so-popular A2B builds.
If I somehow need to generate even more threat I keep an extra +threat console in my inventory that can be slotted in on the fly, and if that's not enough I can always pull out the APD+Jem Hadar DoFF and get another bonus to threat. So far neither have been necessary.
Last I checked game mechanics and the way things work has absolutely nothing to do with whether it is used on you or on an NPC.
Besides some people think PvPers being the minority shouldn't have a say in most of what happens in the game. Doesn't sound fair but it's as good as what you say about people who don't PvP shouldn't post in topics no?
Do you know why PvPers stick to the PvP forums when discussing mechanics that REALLY should be in these forums? Do you know why some people even left the PvP forums and generally stick to this one?
It's because PvPers only care about that area of the game, some care about balance in the wider game and you see them in this forum, most do not.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
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Ok. Escort with beams > cruiser with beams. Here's why:
Beams work better with a high eng layout, (2a2b dem3 eptw3). Cruisers will be able to do that, escorts won't since most of them are tac heavy. Cruisers have an extra weapon slot than escorts. Cruisers have a higher hull and shield mod than escorts. Cruisers have cruiser commands.
Escorts have turn rate and inertia. With beams that means NOTHING, unless of course you suck at moving around.
Of course dhcs are the weapon of choice in nws, spike and cc is what matters. Enemy wcb is what does most of the work anyways.
Heh, it's annoying for me to parse since I changed AV - have to disable it because of false positives on the plugins for ACT. But let's see what we've got here, eh?
It's curious, too - based on the name of the file, where you guys are looking for damage. The 53.44 would suggest Attack (Out) rather than Outgoing Damage. So it's definitely a case of not including pet damage in "quoting" DPS, which always struck me odd as some doing that and some not. It's part of the ship, eh?
Guess I'll look at both.
So, Just Mal: 53,412.25 DPS
Mal 'n Drones: 57,204.40 DPS
That's what it's telling me for the overall.
Let's start by removing any Gateway hits while a Trans is still around, eh?
So, Just Mal: 48,475.69 DPS
Mal 'n Drones: 51,157.88 DPS
Meaning a difference of...
So, Just Mal: 4,936.56 DPS (9.24% of the DPS as padding)
Mal 'n Drones: 6,046.52 DPS (10.57% of the DPS as padding)
Let's move on to removing Transformer hits while a Gen is still around, eh?
It's nifty that each of the Gens is tagged individually, so you can tell which Gens are which (same for the Trans). So for this, we know that 38904, 38906, 38907, & 38908 are the first four Gens while 38912, 38913, 38898, & 38899 are the second four Gens. The first Trans is 38901 and the second is 38903.
So, Just Mal: 44,869.82 DPS
Mal 'n Drones: 47,278.41 DPS
Meaning an overall difference (compared to the first numbers) of...
So, Just Mal: 8,542.43 DPS (15.99% of the DPS as padding)
Mal 'n Drones: 9,925.99 DPS (17.35% of the DPS as padding)
That's still almost 45k DPS without the padding - honestly, a number higher than I expected. But it is a truer number than the 53.4k DPS number...
It's one of the reasons I mentioned having the Trans untargetable until the Gens are down and having the Gate untargetable until the Trans are down. One could just look at the numbers and have the numbers be what they are, without having to take into consideration any padding that might have taken place...
...and it would give a truer base for any of the cannon/torp folks to make their arguments, eh? Instead of them pushing for a boost on their numbers, resulting in them doing more damage than they should...and...making even more of a mess over in PvP.
Well said
However the overwhelming majority totlly rejects the Trinity especialy cruiser players
The faster cryptic leaves the trinity behind the better off the game will be
the team doesnt even need crosshealing at all in Pve as long as a competent cruiser driver is around that can take and hold agro
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Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
your typical ignorant "i want more dmg" sto player here
i've played this game on and of for years, and the problem has been the same for years,
if you have any problem with what i wrote jump into pvp and see for your self instead of making ill conceived assumptions.
i base my statement on every time i get 1 volleyed in a sci by a decloaking escort, or the ridiculous survivability, dmg spikes and cooldowns when i jump in an escort (some more then others).
as for pve?
or the fact i can tank just about any pve miss in an escort,
having sci around may only be useful in pugs if a newbie screws something up to have a GW to throw down, otherwise a complete waste of dps
and a cruiser? just throw everything to make it dish out as much dmg as possible and good to go! pffft tank ... just lmao
but since your post was so rational and well made i've decided to change my ways of thinking and decide you are right!
parking my char on drozana closing the game and not giving it a second thought for another few months will certainly help pay the bills there at cryptic and pw. well they won't care either i guess plenty of morons to buy they packs.
But that's kind of the thing (and I can't believe I'm saying this, since I despise the Trinity in gaming - lol), with content diversity - Cruiserjocks could still perform any of the Trinity roles.
There could be Content X at Difficulty A, where folks can run whatever and have a blast. You kick that Difficulty up to C or harder; and now you're looking at where you may want to have Tacs in Cruisers - cause even with a dedicated healer, Tacs in Escorts would get shredded.
There could be Context Y at Difficulty A, where folks can run whatever and have a blast. You kick that Difficulty up to C or harder; and now you're looking at where you may want to have everybody in Escorts, Temporal Sci, Sci Destroyers, etc - because you need more zip to get around to handle what's going on than you need outright tank like you did with Content X.
Etc, etc, etc...so various Cruiserjocks could have a blast regardless with Content X - while they'd still be able to have a blast at certain levels of Difficulty with Content Y. A bunch of different permutations...and an actual robust endgame.
Cryptic wants folks to buy a bunch of different ships - they've changed it so folks can buy more ships - they're working out the kinks on the load switching...etc, etc, etc. But where is the actual Content diversity for any of that? IMHO, they've focused too much on anybody can have a blast - which means that many folks will just run whatever to do everything, because it's going to be good enough and that folks that want to min/max are just going to run a very limited number of builds because there's no diversity requiring a diverse selection of builds.
Escorts also have higher impulse mods which means they close the distance faster. A lot of escorts also have enough engineering to hit their overcap for beam weapons, remember it is EPSxfiring cycle time.
For most people that means you only need to get to 160s in terms of weapon power, EptW1 gives +22 and leech with 9 ranks in flow caps gives +16 that will take you to +38 on top of whatever bonus you get from warp core potential and weapon performance which will usually get you to the overcap you need.
The limiting factors at the top end and the difference is mostly down to speed at getting to targets and positioning. The higher impulse and turn help massively for escorts, the rest is piloting. This is why Mal with good reason was wanting to give the fleet Arkif a try as the loss of one beam could possibly have been made up for by the speed and turn increase over the scimitar. It also had the exact boff positions he was using so it was no loss for him there.
Anyway VD the dps channels have their own standardised combat log reader. If I can find the link I will post it. Having said that the padding as you call it doesn't change the time too much, sure the dps number might drop but it doesn't change the fact that this content is being completed so fast.
Here this is the parser we use, it's standardised and more or less DPS channel approved and run, big thanks to omegashoker
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
It's curious how much higher the DPS shows with that compared to using the Hilbert plugin with ACT. It's handling the encounter duration differently, eh? It's going with Time in Combat vs. Encounter Duration - so it's producing a higher DPS. The actual parse for his first to last shot involves ~118s, but this is doing the calc on 110s instead. If I grab the fourth log (1st was the download, 2nd was pulling everybody but Mal, 3rd was pulling the Gateway while Trans were up, and 4th was pulling the Trans while Gens were up)...it drops it down to 98s - creating vastly different numbers.
But that brings up another thing - folks not only using different parsers, but with ACT - folks are using different plugins too.
BTW, nifty - this doesn't throw any false positives for my AV.