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The scary future of Escorts according to my speculation/ guess

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    futurepastnowfuturepastnow Member Posts: 3,660 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Escorts will be given a bonus similar to cruiser commands/secondary deflectors. They're saving it for last because it requires the most work in design and balance.
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    virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Probably the worst thing the run away DPS ever did for this game is train people to point, sit still, shoot, and just duke it out. Simply because it works. Now that's what it's trained people to do, doing anything else is almost viewed as a sin. :\

    Which, imho, would be a fine thing to do as long as they had a pocket healer on them...or...they actually faced imminent demise for sitting there.
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    orangeitisorangeitis Member Posts: 5,222 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Not to insult anyone, but they do have a agro clear. It's the best defense in the game!

    It's called running away.
    People get mighty pissed if you use that in an STF though, apparently.
    Escorts will be given a bonus similar to cruiser commands/secondary deflectors. They're saving it for last because it requires the most work in design and balance.
    You mean ship types like Destroyers, Raptors, Corvettes and Dreadnoughts will get stuff before Escorts? I don't know, that seems unlikely.

    Though I do want to see something unique for Destroyers. Their playstyle is too close to Escort playstyles. Same with Corvettes and Raptors.
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    virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Escort/Raptor/Corvette - balanced Tactical vessel
    Destroyer/Warship - 4/4 weapons
    (Aquarius should be retcon'd as a Raider - Fed friendly name of course, ahem)
    Raider - flanking
    Attack Ship - 5/2 weapons
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    orangeitisorangeitis Member Posts: 5,222 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    (Aquarius should be retcon'd as a Raider - Fed friendly name of course, ahem)
    10/10 would fly.
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    virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Folks have joked about the Aquarius being a Raider without a cloak since it was introduced. They recently introduced the Plesh Brek - and - there's another ship that kind of matches up, eh? There's the typical dance of the sliders here and there as they've adjusted some stats...but the Aquarius screams out even more now (imho) with the Plesh Brek being released...that it's a Fed Raider. It should get flanking as such (again, imho).
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    veryth12veryth12 Member Posts: 102 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    I am not an expert when it comes to cruisers, but it sounds to me that the escort vs cruiser dps discussion is Fire at will (AoE) beam boats out dps Escort single target dps? Which would be an apples to oranges comparision since AoE damage would almost always out dps a single target dps...

    If it is Fire at Will dps vs Scatter volle dps, it is also not a fair comparison. Scatter volley requires a target, and the AoE is centered on the target. Fire at Will does not (you can actually fire it with no target selected), and beams that are unable to fire at your current target will still fire at a different target that is currently in thier firing arc. When an escort uses scatter volley, the turrets in the back do not attack everything in 360 degrees, just the stuff in the 45 degree arc of your target.

    If it is single target dps for both, and both have very comparable gear, I find it hard to believe the cruiser would out dps the escort in a park and fire situation, but a situation demanding the escort to let the target out of the firing arc I could see.


    The one thing I am kind of anoyed by with my escort is the fact that you cannot really fly in 360 degrees in the game, so if a target is above me, I have to fly away and then circle back (as aposed to just angling the ship upwards in real life) in order to bring them into the cannon firing arc. It's not quite as anoying when I fly a cruiser or a science ship though since the firing arcs will still cover the area above them the same as when they are broadsiding something.
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    virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    The Z-axis (I believe it's actually the Y-axis in STO...er...through the way they do the maps or something) is problematic because of that lack of Z-axis movement when you look at those 45 arcs vs. 250 arcs. No doubt about that...
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    ruminate00ruminate00 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    I wouldn't mind if Escorts got an innate passive ability that makes it so any equipped cannon will not suffer from range penalties. The buff would help out the average player without actually increasing a top player's top end damage.

    In the past couple of months, I don't think I've ever seen a cannon boat, in a PUG, stay within 2.5m of their target. Most stay within 9-10m and end up dealing really bad DPS.
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    virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    ruminate00 wrote: »
    I wouldn't mind if Escorts got an innate passive ability that makes it so any equipped cannon will not suffer from range penalties. The buff would help out the average player without actually increasing a top player's top end damage.

    In the past couple of months, I don't think I've ever seen a cannon boat, in a PUG, stay within 2.5m of their target. Most stay within 9-10m and end up dealing really bad DPS.

    How many of them actually know the extent of the loss of damage because of dropoff though? It's not exactly well-publicized by Cryptic...
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    orangeitisorangeitis Member Posts: 5,222 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    ruminate00 wrote: »
    I wouldn't mind if Escorts got an innate passive ability that makes it so any equipped cannon will not suffer from range penalties. The buff would help out the average player without actually increasing a top player's top end damage.

    In the past couple of months, I don't think I've ever seen a cannon boat, in a PUG, stay within 2.5m of their target. Most stay within 9-10m and end up dealing really bad DPS.
    I support this idea.
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    resoundingenvoyresoundingenvoy Member Posts: 439
    edited February 2014
    veryth12 wrote: »
    [...]If it is Fire at Will dps vs Scatter volle dps, it is also not a fair comparison. Scatter volley requires a target, and the AoE is centered on the target.[...]

    That's only mostly true as far as DPS is concerned, but different reasons.

    Scatter volley requires a target to fire because of a limit on how the ability is triggered.

    Fire at Will requires a target or risk thinning the damage out to beyond uselessness.

    If it's a issue of having a 270degree AoE vs a 45degree AoE? I thought the whole point of cannons was trading a firing arc for damage.
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    cptapollocptapollo Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    ruminate00 wrote: »
    I wouldn't mind if Escorts got an innate passive ability that makes it so any equipped cannon will not suffer from range penalties. The buff would help out the average player without actually increasing a top player's top end damage.

    In the past couple of months, I don't think I've ever seen a cannon boat, in a PUG, stay within 2.5m of their target. Most stay within 9-10m and end up dealing really bad DPS.

    wtf am i even reading?
    have you any idea about what that would do to pvp???? any??? and even pve??? sure that's all we ****ing need, escorts and dreadnoughts spiking at 10km like they do at 1km!!!

    the whole reason cannons are so high dmg and crf/csv is spike not dps based (although i will argue that with the fing 15 sec recharge on that op skill when having 2 slotted) is cuz escorts can get close, 1-2km, do their spike and get out before they take to much dmg. fing hell, if u think that's unfair and want no dropff lets take the speed and turn rate of escorts down to sci/cruiser lvl, hows that???

    ik 2-3 sci skills that actually are useful while idk 1 tac skill that doesn't help in my escort.
    every tac skill is working well to deliver high dmg no matter what weapon you use.
    when we see a cruiser or a sci ship actually being able to go 1v1 with tac that's when we can talk about any escort buffs. until then f off.
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    bpharmabpharma Member Posts: 2,022
    edited February 2014
    And that's where I think the content needs a buff.

    Interesting thing happened last night, Mal decided to run a crystalline entity elite with 10/20k channel players, it died so quick most people didn't even notice more than one absorb phase.

    I then said let's do the 20 player fleet defense, we did, it was annihilated, it wasn't even a challenge and the siege dreadnoughts died in seconds. That's those massive ships that usually take ages when pugging.

    We then did star base 24 and to be honest no-one even noticed the change over to all the Klingons warping in which usually kills you due to being outnumbered.

    Mal then got a group of 30k players and redid crystalline entity elite and did it 30s faster.

    The worst thing is that a lot of the players were 10k players and I don't think everyone was really trying and bringing their A game and it was pathetically easy. It wasn't even a challenge and there wasn't anything to fear, there was no need for a healer as things died so fast, no need of a tank or a science debuffer.

    I think the best comment said after was "If everyone did 10k (which is achievable in all RA+ ships) then they would HAVE to make content harder"

    I dunno I'll listen to that podcast but I think this is going to be it for me, a game isn't fun when there's nothing to do but grind for....?

    It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
    A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.

    Has damage got out of control?
    This is the last thing I will post.
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    hereticknight085hereticknight085 Member Posts: 3,783 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Wow. I can't believe I read this whole thread. I should get an accolade for that XD.

    Ooook. As far as PvE goes, beams are king. There is no getting around that. You see two or three minute ISE runs from the insane DPS players (I would know, i was in a few of those), and most, if not all, are using beamboats. Not just cruisers, but carriers, Scimitars, Escorts, etc.

    Secondly, there is NOTHING that beats Romulan insta-vape builds in PvP (at least as far as killing goes). When you can deal 150k damage in the space of 3 seconds... yeeeeah. Tbh, like VD pointed out in another thread, shields are almost a null point, since the majority of kills it seems, are done exclusively by bypassing shields or via bleed.

    Lastly... escorts can sustain heavy DPS in PvE, but it's still out-done by beamboats. BFAW and APB are just too healthy a combination of pure dakka. You can still use CRF3 and APB2, but when they hit BFAW3 and APB2... you're outdone.

    But... I'm not really worried. You'll never see fed cruisers dashing around like my Defiant can. You'll never see fed cruisers de-cloaking insta-vape like my Qin can. And you'll definitely never see a fed cruiser annihilate an entire wave of NPCs in under 3 seconds like my Scimitar can.

    Long story short, beamboats may be kings of dps... but Escorts still have their usage, and always will.
    It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once. B)
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    bpharmabpharma Member Posts: 2,022
    edited February 2014
    150k in 3 seconds? Try trippling it and then maybe doubling it....maybe even in 2 seconds.

    There's a lot of damage to be had in this game, also there are some people pushing escorts with DHCs to 34k dps, not sure if it's with or without spire consoles though, think it was without. That is a SPIKE weapon on a SPIKE ship doing that level of DPS btw.

    It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
    A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.

    Has damage got out of control?
    This is the last thing I will post.
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    virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    bpharma wrote: »
    I think the best comment said after was "If everyone did 10k (which is achievable in all RA+ ships) then they would HAVE to make content harder"

    You know, that is one way they could go I suppose. Another way, though, might be simply to increase the sheer number of grinds facing the players - while having the backup plan of perhaps - changing from hourly events that happen daily to weekend events that happen maybe once a month...

    ...will just have to see which way Cryptic goes, eh?
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    bpharmabpharma Member Posts: 2,022
    edited February 2014
    You know, that is one way they could go I suppose. Another way, though, might be simply to increase the sheer number of grinds facing the players - while having the backup plan of perhaps - changing from hourly events that happen daily to weekend events that happen maybe once a month...

    ...will just have to see which way Cryptic goes, eh?

    Yes and maybe they could add a 5 Zen charge to getting each rank of rep as well as fix issues in the game by adding the fix as limited time doffs or lobi items...

    It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
    A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.

    Has damage got out of control?
    This is the last thing I will post.
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    virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    In the PO185-5, Geko at least reiterated/reclarified that he has no desire to nerf Escorts - rather, he just wants to nerf Cannons (one might say that he was just joking about the Cannons, based on the forumpocalypse that took the last time that he mentioned that...but why would you even joke about that, unless it was some sort of passive aggressive joke based on an underlying desire?)...

    He also mentioned the flanking upgrade to raiders, as well as some additional tweaks to them - including trying to distinguish them more at the T5 level.

    Course, there was also the discussion of improving Cruiser Commands. No, seriously...seriously.
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    bpharmabpharma Member Posts: 2,022
    edited February 2014
    Yes I heard that. Course escorts DID rule the roost for a long time, now? I dunno really.

    Having said that my escorts with beams certainly outperform in DPS my escorts with cannons. However the escorty ships are generally better for DPS due to speed+manueverability+just enough engineering/science.

    They also spike better. HOWEVER, that is only comparing fed side, once you start talking about warbirds they outclass both the cruiser and the escort.

    It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
    A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.

    Has damage got out of control?
    This is the last thing I will post.
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    meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    The Z-axis (I believe it's actually the Y-axis in STO...er...through the way they do the maps or something) is problematic because of that lack of Z-axis movement when you look at those 45 arcs vs. 250 arcs. No doubt about that...

    There simply is no Z-axis in STO because... people are dumb, LOL. No, seriously, it's like Archer trying to outrun a storm, needing Warp 7 (and he only has Warp 5), instead of tilting his ship a bit and just fly over it. Janeway, same story: big, mean nebula in your way? Oh noes, we must go thru it, cuz, here, at Flatland Academy, we don't do Z-axis!

    Simple truth is, humans just primarily move on a 2-dimensional plane. TV series/MMO's, they all know this, and have simply come to expect ppl can't really handle true 3D very well. And some of the older space games which sported true 3D movement (like Freespace) just made you dizzy.

    P.S. Instead of circling around, to come about, going in reverse + Evasive Manoeuvres can make you pull a mean 'Crazy Ivan.'
    3lsZz0w.jpg
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    virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    There simply is no Z-axis in STO because... people are dumb, LOL. No, seriously, it's like Archer trying to outrun a storm, needing Warp 7 (and he only has Warp 5), instead of tilting his ship a bit and just fly over it. Janeway, same story: big, mean nebula in your way? Oh noes, we must go thru it, cuz, here, at Flatland Academy, we don't do Z-axis!

    Simple truth is, humans just primarily move on a 2-dimensional plane. TV series/MMO's, they all know this, and have simply come to expect ppl can't really handle true 3D very well. And some of the older space games which sported true 3D movement (like Freespace) just made you dizzy.

    P.S. Instead of circling around, to come about, going in reverse + Evasive Manoeuvres can make you pull a mean 'Crazy Ivan.'

    See, I've always taken their "Canon" explanation as a cop-out. Have always found it funny that starships dance around on a 2D plane while fighters (planes) will 3D all through the skies.

    For a lot of it, they simply had budgetary concerns/issues and lacked the technology - wasn't until later that they started getting more and more CGI...but by then, the precedence had been set, eh?

    There's all sorts of maneuvers one can pull off in a Cruiser - there are some folks that can do an evil EWP paint job...but in the end, it kind of comes down to is it needed? Most targets are going to be sit 'n shoot or just circle them...not much maneuvering required otherwise.
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    ruminate00ruminate00 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    cptapollo wrote: »
    wtf am i even reading?
    have you any idea about what that would do to pvp???? any??? and even pve??? sure that's all we ****ing need, escorts and dreadnoughts spiking at 10km like they do at 1km!!!

    the whole reason cannons are so high dmg and crf/csv is spike not dps based (although i will argue that with the fing 15 sec recharge on that op skill when having 2 slotted) is cuz escorts can get close, 1-2km, do their spike and get out before they take to much dmg. fing hell, if u think that's unfair and want no dropff lets take the speed and turn rate of escorts down to sci/cruiser lvl, hows that???

    ik 2-3 sci skills that actually are useful while idk 1 tac skill that doesn't help in my escort.
    every tac skill is working well to deliver high dmg no matter what weapon you use.
    when we see a cruiser or a sci ship actually being able to go 1v1 with tac that's when we can talk about any escort buffs. until then f off.


    The PvP spike comes from beam overload with dual beam banks, not cannons. Cannons are just there because beam overload puts FAW on a cooldown.
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    hereticknight085hereticknight085 Member Posts: 3,783 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    bpharma wrote: »
    150k in 3 seconds? Try trippling it and then maybe doubling it....maybe even in 2 seconds.

    There's a lot of damage to be had in this game, also there are some people pushing escorts with DHCs to 34k dps, not sure if it's with or without spire consoles though, think it was without. That is a SPIKE weapon on a SPIKE ship doing that level of DPS btw.

    Actually I can get some pretty good sustained DPS out of a half-assed cannon build. Peeps say cannons are all about spike... well you can cycle CRF and APB for good sustain.

    Oh, and for the record, I have another friend who can slap out 200k damage in ~2 seconds. I've seen him do it. Instantly vaporized one of those HoBOs uberhealboat Recluses. It was amusing, if nothing else.
    ruminate00 wrote: »
    The PvP spike comes from beam overload with dual beam banks, not cannons. Cannons are just there because beam overload puts FAW on a cooldown.

    That and DHCs with CRF and the bleed DOff are absolutely devastating. I used to do that... but got bored with it's insanity so went back to just de-cloak BO3s for fun.
    It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once. B)
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    jack24bau3rjack24bau3r Member Posts: 451 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    I think cannon boff powers need to be buffed/reworked. From my understanding CSV can only hit 3 targets at a time. Also from my understanding BFAW doesn't have a limit, or if it does the limit is more than 3.

    Cannon powers require a higher level of officer to use vs beam powers. For instance, one can use BO1/BFAW1 in an ensign slot, but CRF1/CSV1 are limited to lieutenant slots.

    The arc of DHCs is 45 degrees and limited to forward weapons. The arc of BAs is 250 degrees and can be slotted in both fore and aft weapon slots.

    By using DHCs you are railroading yourself into using turrets as your aft weapons (assuming you want near 100% upkeep on something firing). Since beams can be slotted in both fore and aft you don't have to have inferior aft weapons.

    I could continue on and look at the damage per hit, the drain, and the cycling mechanics, but hopefully just from what I've said so far shows the huge balance difference between beams and cannons.
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    virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    I think cannon boff powers need to be buffed/reworked. From my understanding CSV can only hit 3 targets at a time. Also from my understanding BFAW doesn't have a limit, or if it does the limit is more than 3.

    FAW can only hit two targets at a time per beam, while CSV is hitting three targets. The two targets that FAW hits, well - if you have a target, it will hit that target and one random target - if you do not have a target, it will just hit random targets with both.
    Cannon powers require a higher level of officer to use vs beam powers. For instance, one can use BO1/BFAW1 in an ensign slot, but CRF1/CSV1 are limited to lieutenant slots.

    Because they're better.
    The arc of DHCs is 45 degrees and limited to forward weapons. The arc of BAs is 250 degrees and can be slotted in both fore and aft weapon slots.

    DHCs have 1.74x the base DPV of an Array...and 1.45x the base DPS.
    By using DHCs you are railroading yourself into using turrets as your aft weapons (assuming you want near 100% upkeep on something firing). Since beams can be slotted in both fore and aft you don't have to have inferior aft weapons.

    Turrets have a 360 arc vs. the 250 of Arrays...that's 110 degrees of 0 damage from the Arrays.
    I could continue on and look at the damage per hit, the drain, and the cycling mechanics, but hopefully just from what I've said so far shows the huge balance difference between beams and cannons.

    Yep. Buff Beams.*

    *edit: Okay, in all seriousness - no, beams do not need to be buffed (now). The content does. Beams and cannons are fine - but the content is off, so beams come off far more powerful than they actually are. If NPCs were buffed to be anywhere near where we are with powercreep - beams would be lol and folks would be asking for buffs for them.
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    killdozer9211killdozer9211 Member Posts: 36 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Glad I'm not the only one that realizes you can't solve the anti-escort complaints with buffs.

    Player: "I can't support my damage dealers because they tank well enough and kill too fast to need me to heal them or debuff their targets!"

    Devs: "Here you go, have a buff!"

    ...What?

    NPCs in this game need a major buff. For Christ's sake, everyone and their grandmother already runs elite fleet adaptive shields +resall MK 1337, the least we could do is give the borg properly adapting shields already.

    I guess the voth were an experiment in this by making really tanky enemies that can resurrect and disable, but there's still a lot that could be done...
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    nobletnoblet Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2014
    Glad I'm not the only one that realizes you can't solve the anti-escort complaints with buffs.

    Player: "I can't support my damage dealers because they tank well enough and kill too fast to need me to heal them or debuff their targets!"

    Devs: "Here you go, have a buff!"

    ...What?

    NPCs in this game need a major buff. For Christ's sake, everyone and their grandmother already runs elite fleet adaptive shields +resall MK 1337, the least we could do is give the borg properly adapting shields already.

    I guess the voth were an experiment in this by making really tanky enemies that can resurrect and disable, but there's still a lot that could be done...

    And then you run newbs/rpers/anyone who isn't an internet spaceship winner like you out of the game.

    They need to add a new layer of harder stfs with rewards worth enough for people who are able to go for it, not buffing existing content out of reach of the casual player.
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