You seem to be posting in a popular time of the day.
Yeah, during a brief down time at work.
Your English seems fine.
Kind of you to notice.
You seem comfortable enough chatting with strangers in this forum.
Idle conversation his hardly comparable to spamming zone chat with pleas for a team-up.
So what's your excuse (not some hypothetical introverted someone that speaks Bengali and plays in the middle of the night)? Let's speak in tangibles instead of hypotheticals.
I don't require an excuse. I do not pay for the privilege of contending with human stupidity. I just want to log on and play, without being at the mercy of anyone's "gracious" participation to do so.
5 master keys to the person who can find the team in that.
Also why is everyone talking about split queues? It was an idea someone came up with that is being run away with, you need ways to balance games when it's a random team up, like say if one side is up 5-0 it switches players.
Also it might help if it was just more fun in general and everyone actually got something from it. Way I see it is when it's an imbalanced match no-one has fun and short of that pitiful reward at the end of 3 matches there's nothing to be gained from it either.
Also there's not exactly any different styles other than TDM and Zergfest...I mean cap and hold.
Where's the FFA? Where's the indirect competition like in Kerrat but balanced? Where is any form of strategy or usage of the environment?
You could even have short mini PvP games like the GW2 tournament dailies, that would go down a storm!
Do premades love pugstomping? Lack of challenge? God mode?:D
Usual scenario for a premade:
Request match in opvp. No response. Do couple of queues. Get bored. Request match again in opvp. No response. Do 1 more match in public queues. Then loose interest.
Not sure where you're getting at. I've been stomped and I have done the stomping. Thanks for that deflection though.
Well, I was just making some observation based upon your comments. I apologize if it sounded like a deflection to you. Allow me to point out why it was not a deflection.
I don't know what needs to be done, leaderboards? Separate queues? Anything? But something does need to be done or pvp in this game will die (if it isn't already).
This is the point where you explicitly state you are yourself not sure with what the solution is. You claim pvp in this game will die. That is a grandoise claim which has absolutely no bearing. PvP is not dead already. You and I might quit PvP, but if nothing changes, PvP will still exist.
My point was people don't always have time to form premades and practice due to the nature of this game. Not everyone has the luxury of playing hardcore or long enough to create lasting friendships. You might see fault in that, but I don't.
The problem I see here is not about pugs vs premade anyway. You can't stop pugs, pugs will keep popping in the queues.
And neither should anybody attempt to stop premades.
It is no secret that STO PvP has a steep learning curve, and without help, new players have little chance of outgrowing their phase of being a 'casual' pvp, something that they do for the dailies. You mention this yourself -
My real issue is the lack of balance of abilities and people made to go against veterans when they're just started exploring the pvp side of this game with no prior tutorials or some pvp experience. This is extremely problematic and I believe this is frustrating and polarizing the player base. People have difficulties to learn and to grow and this is conducive to a small pvp community.
Which is a bonafide problem. But again, if we remember the context of this thread, it should be apparent that separating queues will not exactly help out new players to learn anything in pvp. Because you yourself mentioned -
And since you seem to be so adverse to the idea of forming a team, I am going to venture a wild guess that it was a pug vs pugstump.
And that is precisely the idea. Pugstumps will still happen, regardless of whether premades exists or not. Granted, pugstump might be a bit harder with premades, but then premades also give you an incentive, a goal to push for. At no point in history, did a mountaineer ever say, well I cannot climb anymore, so lets just call where I am standing, the summit. And yet, calling for a separate queues feels exactly like this idiotic idea.
For PvP community to grow, no doubt we need more of the base to be attracted to the idea of PvP. And no doubt, that PvP as it exists today, it might be frustrating to go into queues as a new player. But putting all the blame solely on the shoulders of premade is nothing but a witchhunt.
I see this whole affair largely as an ego problem. Individuals hate to lose. When they lose, their egos get hurt. They see premades as problems (Premades taunting pugs does not help). Yet, in pug vs pug, these same individuals will not hesitate to turn around and roflstomp noobs. To add insult to injury, some of these superpugs might even start to taunt the newbs in zone chat. Some of the new guys might themselves be seasoned PvE heroes. Since they lost so badly, they will see all of PvP mechanics as broken and problematic. Some of the new pugs might be entirely new to the game as well. And even these, some will console themselves saying they lost because they don't have the right equipment, etc and vow to come back later, which is a good attitude, and yet, others might be put off from the game entirely. These things happen. STO is not the only game that these things happen to.
And yet you will notice, which I think you already have, is that there is not a single point in the entire game, where any of the PvP mechanics is explained to the player. You are simply handed a ship, and an assignment, and you are tacitly encouraged to kirk it up. And you do. This is the single biggest problem in introducing players to PvP. In the past, there have been attempts at remedying this, in the form of bootcamp. I was myself a graduate of the 1st such bootcamp (still waiting on the ground version). Information dissemination is vital. If you are part of a fleet and you like to pvp, you should try to find out who else likes pvp, and see if there is something you can teach/something you can learn. Even when you pug up, you must run into some player that you think are awesome eventually, you could throw a friend request and have some candid discussion. However, in small number of cases where the player cannot, for whatever reasons, team up with anybody at all... well then I would say it is a bit unrealistic to not put in a 100%, but expect a 100% out of it, wouldn't you?
All said and done, the idea of separate queues is poorly thought out and it is worse than a bandaid solution. The problem lies elsewhere entirely.
There is no breathingroom for upcoming teams anymore. I know three guys (okay, not a full team, but at least something) that used to team up with team-orientated builds and went hitting the Qs. Though in the last year they were confronted with fully Lockboxed out teams with Bugships and Timeships and TIFs and tat. They dont Q anymore, because by all efforts they were rofl-stomped by certain longstanding teams that pretend to intercept some other certain guys over and over again for weeks/month. There is no place for you in PVP, when you are a casual players, even if they try to teamplay.
To my mind it is totally understandable thats unfun for people, so they quit and the Qs stay empty.
I pvp amongst my fleet all the time however I refuse to q as I always seem to get stuck against a premade and then my team is rofl stomped which is ZERO fun for me I think premades should NOT queue anymore and stick to private matches against other premades so that people who just wanna have fun pvping can without having to resort to private fleet only matches.
I pvp amongst my fleet all the time however I refuse to q as I always seem to get stuck against a premade and then my team is rofl stomped which is ZERO fun for me I think premades should NOT queue anymore and stick to private matches against other premades so that people who just wanna have fun pvping can without having to resort to private fleet only matches.
So, it's not fun for you? Well, your solution ruins the fun for others. How does that make you feel? The game is as it is. You can adapt to be successful, or you can continue to complain and blame others. The choice is yours.
Name one person who has fun from being curb stomped into the ground when having to fight a premade and I might conede your point. You get off from winning against people who can't hope to match your tactics due to just wanting to randomly play and that's bad. You should enjoy more evenly matched fights than a curb stomp.
Name one person who has fun from being curb stomped into the ground when having to fight a premade and I might conede your point. You get off from winning against people who can't hope to match your tactics due to just wanting to randomly play and that's bad. You should enjoy more evenly matched fights than a curb stomp.
One could counter that your argument is invalid. You can not expect success if you are unwilling to do what it takes to achieve your goal. If not getting ROFLstomped in PvP is your goal, then a team is the solution. You aren't willing to do it. You just want to punish those that have taken that step, so that your ego doesn't take another bruising.
Oh, and I don't enjoy pugstomps (Panda teams usually only queue when we spot a premade in the queues ourselves and said premade refuses to set up a private match or reply to the request at all), and I also PUG a lot myself (but I still work as a member of a team and not as an individual... it's amazing how many people are surprised when you send them a heal in a PUG match). That is why I'm on a crusade to point out that the problem isn't the premades, it's the PUGs that refuse to raise their game to the next level or admit that by "Kirking It Up" they are hindering the potential of their entire team, expecting Cryptic to change the game to appease them. Seriously, PvP can never be casual because of the competitive nature of humans. If you want casual, stay out of the queues.
Its also a matter that many more casual people that do try teamplay simply dont have the funds to get proper gear/(lockbox)ships
I have spent less than $500 in 4 years of play and that is counting 2 years of $15 per month and the few C-Store ships I bought before F2P and Lockboxes existed. Since F2P, I am in it for less than $50, my lockbox ships came from 1 of 2 places, the exchange or a gift from a friend. There are ways other than the wallet to attain things. Just Sayin'.
please consider that people dont have 100M EC for lockbox ships. some even dont have the EC for the fleet ship modules. some dont play 50h per week. just sayin
please consider that people dont have 100M EC for lockbox ships. some even dont have the EC for the fleet ship modules. some dont play 50h per week. just sayin
I am a very EC poor player myself (less than 2mill currently on all toons combined), and almost never have enough to get what I want immediately. When I want something, however, I put it the effort to make it happen. And I don't play more than 2 or 3 hours per day, lately even less. I also play WarThunder, MechWarrior and Civ5 regularly. It's not as hard as you are trying to make it out to be.
That is why I'm on a crusade to point out that the problem isn't the premades, it's the PUGs that refuse to raise their game to the next level or admit that by "Kirking It Up" they are hindering the potential of their entire team, expecting Cryptic to change the game to appease them.
When I can't rely on my "PUG" team for anything, I might as well go out in a blaze of glory. Maybe draw one of the opponents out of the security of their team spam furball and take them down with me.
When I can't rely on my "PUG" team for anything, I might as well go out in a blaze of glory. Maybe draw one of the opponents out of the security of their team spam furball and take them down with me.
*shrug*
but when you can rely on your PUG team, isn't it glorious? the queue gods smile on us all once in a while
It was my intention to bring a thought on this in here. From what i heared by old friends that play fed-side. It was not my intention to go against teamplay, if you assume this. Its a true fact that the gear-level of longstanding teamS is on an extreme high level.
However. I see i missed the point. So i am out here. Thanks for your replies!
It was my intention to bring a thought on this in here. From what i heared by old friends that play fed-side. It was not my intention to go against teamplay, if you assume this. Its a true fact that the gear-level of longstanding teamS is on an extreme high level.
However. I see i missed the point. So i am out here. Thanks for your replies!
Wit the advent of the fleet stuff, the gear is no longer out of reach from most players - Now its about how to mash it together and actually use it harmoniously to be the most effective you can be.
So the "he's got better gear" argument is becoming a mute point real fast.
Imagine if all pugs thought "team based" in an arena. By default, you would be more effective.
One could counter that your argument is invalid. You can not expect success if you are unwilling to do what it takes to achieve your goal. If not getting ROFLstomped in PvP is your goal, then a team is the solution. You aren't willing to do it. You just want to punish those that have taken that step, so that your ego doesn't take another bruising.
Oh, and I don't enjoy pugstomps (Panda teams usually only queue when we spot a premade in the queues ourselves and said premade refuses to set up a private match or reply to the request at all), and I also PUG a lot myself (but I still work as a member of a team and not as an individual... it's amazing how many people are surprised when you send them a heal in a PUG match). That is why I'm on a crusade to point out that the problem isn't the premades, it's the PUGs that refuse to raise their game to the next level or admit that by "Kirking It Up" they are hindering the potential of their entire team, expecting Cryptic to change the game to appease them. Seriously, PvP can never be casual because of the competitive nature of humans. If you want casual, stay out of the queues.
This is all pure none sense, people are asking for two different ques. One for teams, one for people pugs. So that would in no way prevent people from teaming up and playing other teams. If you can not find other teams to play, that's too bad but that doesn't mean others should be asked to be curbstomped so you have someone to play.
People play the way this wish to play it not the way you wish. There's people that want to take whatever ship they want to play. There is people that god forbid want to play a eng in pvp. Pre mades have a advantage over pugs that are going in with a random group.
Your demands amount to demanding that you have the right to pug stomp people because you enjoy pug stomping people. I am sorry if your fragile ego wouldn't be able to withstand fighting other groups that could put up a fair fight but that's not a really good reason to demand Cryptic not change things so you have pugs to stomp.
This is all pure none sense, people are asking for two different ques. One for teams, one for people pugs. So that would in no way prevent people from teaming up and playing other teams. If you can not find other teams to play, that's too bad but that doesn't mean others should be asked to be curbstomped so you have someone to play.
People play the way this wish to play it not the way you wish. There's people that want to take whatever ship they want to play. There is people that god forbid want to play a eng in pvp. Pre mades have a advantage over pugs that are going in with a random group.
Your demands amount to demanding that you have the right to pug stomp people because you enjoy pug stomping people. I am sorry if your fragile ego wouldn't be able to withstand fighting other groups that could put up a fair fight but that's not a really good reason to demand Cryptic not change things so you have pugs to stomp.
I find it very funny when people use broken bugs in the game. When they can't even take it and they know who I am talking about the fleets and the people you know who they are. They can't just take it they will always want to play dirty I will give them dirty play in pvp.:cool:
I find it very funny when people use broken bugs in the game. When they can't even take it and they know who I am talking about the fleets and the people you know who they are. They can't just take it they will always want to play dirty I will give them dirty play in pvp.:cool:
This is all pure none sense, people are asking for two different ques. One for teams, one for people pugs. So that would in no way prevent people from teaming up and playing other teams. If you can not find other teams to play, that's too bad but that doesn't mean others should be asked to be curbstomped so you have someone to play.
People play the way this wish to play it not the way you wish. There's people that want to take whatever ship they want to play. There is people that god forbid want to play a eng in pvp. Pre mades have a advantage over pugs that are going in with a random group.
Your demands amount to demanding that you have the right to pug stomp people because you enjoy pug stomping people. I am sorry if your fragile ego wouldn't be able to withstand fighting other groups that could put up a fair fight but that's not a really good reason to demand Cryptic not change things so you have pugs to stomp.
How many of them teams would actually queue up if our groups constantly queued up???
They wouldn't. It won't make a difference. I wish it would but it won't.
Perhaps I am wrong.
I wish, truely!
That said, Cryptic should focus some on the queue order of the public. If they made it easier to catch these teams... Anyway that could be an acceptable start.
Who are you that i shouldn't queue up or build an old school premade and ask some of the old guard to join?
The game lost execution pvp skill's anyway and there is no competitive scene, and can't be atm cause of the balance tweaks anyway. 2-3 Years ago was different, before it was f2p. So what you call guys premade i can't the old premades i talk about, had 3 setups, and only the a setup's used every micro second the game allowed to use for execution of tactics. And now? The server has so hard packet loss that's more about fun then skill.
All premades should be disallowed from regular queues. I doubt there are enough premades to sustain their own queues but I would give it to them anyways. Fun factor would go way up without a whole team of people coordinating cheese spam on pugs.
Then maybe people could pick up this little thing I call "skills".
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
Comments
Right there with ya
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Yeah, during a brief down time at work.
Kind of you to notice.
Idle conversation his hardly comparable to spamming zone chat with pleas for a team-up.
I don't require an excuse. I do not pay for the privilege of contending with human stupidity. I just want to log on and play, without being at the mercy of anyone's "gracious" participation to do so.
5 master keys to the person who can find the team in that.
Also why is everyone talking about split queues? It was an idea someone came up with that is being run away with, you need ways to balance games when it's a random team up, like say if one side is up 5-0 it switches players.
Also it might help if it was just more fun in general and everyone actually got something from it. Way I see it is when it's an imbalanced match no-one has fun and short of that pitiful reward at the end of 3 matches there's nothing to be gained from it either.
Also there's not exactly any different styles other than TDM and Zergfest...I mean cap and hold.
Where's the FFA? Where's the indirect competition like in Kerrat but balanced? Where is any form of strategy or usage of the environment?
You could even have short mini PvP games like the GW2 tournament dailies, that would go down a storm!
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Just like there's some PvPers that think PvE players are a bunch of morons who run CRF on a beam boat.
Just as there's PvEers that go around saying all PvPers are a bunch of whiney elitist pigs who cause every nerf.
Just as some people think A2B is h4x0rZ and some people think nothing should ever come close to the dps as escorts.
*chomp, chomp, chomp*
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
Usual scenario for a premade:
Request match in opvp. No response. Do couple of queues. Get bored. Request match again in opvp. No response. Do 1 more match in public queues. Then loose interest.
Do rep on toons.
Repeat first process.
Well, I was just making some observation based upon your comments. I apologize if it sounded like a deflection to you. Allow me to point out why it was not a deflection.
This is the point where you explicitly state you are yourself not sure with what the solution is. You claim pvp in this game will die. That is a grandoise claim which has absolutely no bearing. PvP is not dead already. You and I might quit PvP, but if nothing changes, PvP will still exist.
And the statements you made -
Seem to imply that you are strongly for the idea of separate queues.
Even though you also claim,
And neither should anybody attempt to stop premades.
It is no secret that STO PvP has a steep learning curve, and without help, new players have little chance of outgrowing their phase of being a 'casual' pvp, something that they do for the dailies. You mention this yourself -
Which is a bonafide problem. But again, if we remember the context of this thread, it should be apparent that separating queues will not exactly help out new players to learn anything in pvp. Because you yourself mentioned -
And since you seem to be so adverse to the idea of forming a team, I am going to venture a wild guess that it was a pug vs pugstump.
And that is precisely the idea. Pugstumps will still happen, regardless of whether premades exists or not. Granted, pugstump might be a bit harder with premades, but then premades also give you an incentive, a goal to push for. At no point in history, did a mountaineer ever say, well I cannot climb anymore, so lets just call where I am standing, the summit. And yet, calling for a separate queues feels exactly like this idiotic idea.
For PvP community to grow, no doubt we need more of the base to be attracted to the idea of PvP. And no doubt, that PvP as it exists today, it might be frustrating to go into queues as a new player. But putting all the blame solely on the shoulders of premade is nothing but a witchhunt.
I see this whole affair largely as an ego problem. Individuals hate to lose. When they lose, their egos get hurt. They see premades as problems (Premades taunting pugs does not help). Yet, in pug vs pug, these same individuals will not hesitate to turn around and roflstomp noobs. To add insult to injury, some of these superpugs might even start to taunt the newbs in zone chat. Some of the new guys might themselves be seasoned PvE heroes. Since they lost so badly, they will see all of PvP mechanics as broken and problematic. Some of the new pugs might be entirely new to the game as well. And even these, some will console themselves saying they lost because they don't have the right equipment, etc and vow to come back later, which is a good attitude, and yet, others might be put off from the game entirely. These things happen. STO is not the only game that these things happen to.
And yet you will notice, which I think you already have, is that there is not a single point in the entire game, where any of the PvP mechanics is explained to the player. You are simply handed a ship, and an assignment, and you are tacitly encouraged to kirk it up. And you do. This is the single biggest problem in introducing players to PvP. In the past, there have been attempts at remedying this, in the form of bootcamp. I was myself a graduate of the 1st such bootcamp (still waiting on the ground version). Information dissemination is vital. If you are part of a fleet and you like to pvp, you should try to find out who else likes pvp, and see if there is something you can teach/something you can learn. Even when you pug up, you must run into some player that you think are awesome eventually, you could throw a friend request and have some candid discussion. However, in small number of cases where the player cannot, for whatever reasons, team up with anybody at all... well then I would say it is a bit unrealistic to not put in a 100%, but expect a 100% out of it, wouldn't you?
All said and done, the idea of separate queues is poorly thought out and it is worse than a bandaid solution. The problem lies elsewhere entirely.
/channel_join OrganizedPvP
Other options :
PvP friends
Fleetmates
Elite Defense Stovokor
There is no breathingroom for upcoming teams anymore. I know three guys (okay, not a full team, but at least something) that used to team up with team-orientated builds and went hitting the Qs. Though in the last year they were confronted with fully Lockboxed out teams with Bugships and Timeships and TIFs and tat. They dont Q anymore, because by all efforts they were rofl-stomped by certain longstanding teams that pretend to intercept some other certain guys over and over again for weeks/month. There is no place for you in PVP, when you are a casual players, even if they try to teamplay.
To my mind it is totally understandable thats unfun for people, so they quit and the Qs stay empty.
So, it's not fun for you? Well, your solution ruins the fun for others. How does that make you feel? The game is as it is. You can adapt to be successful, or you can continue to complain and blame others. The choice is yours.
One could counter that your argument is invalid. You can not expect success if you are unwilling to do what it takes to achieve your goal. If not getting ROFLstomped in PvP is your goal, then a team is the solution. You aren't willing to do it. You just want to punish those that have taken that step, so that your ego doesn't take another bruising.
Oh, and I don't enjoy pugstomps (Panda teams usually only queue when we spot a premade in the queues ourselves and said premade refuses to set up a private match or reply to the request at all), and I also PUG a lot myself (but I still work as a member of a team and not as an individual... it's amazing how many people are surprised when you send them a heal in a PUG match). That is why I'm on a crusade to point out that the problem isn't the premades, it's the PUGs that refuse to raise their game to the next level or admit that by "Kirking It Up" they are hindering the potential of their entire team, expecting Cryptic to change the game to appease them. Seriously, PvP can never be casual because of the competitive nature of humans. If you want casual, stay out of the queues.
I have spent less than $500 in 4 years of play and that is counting 2 years of $15 per month and the few C-Store ships I bought before F2P and Lockboxes existed. Since F2P, I am in it for less than $50, my lockbox ships came from 1 of 2 places, the exchange or a gift from a friend. There are ways other than the wallet to attain things. Just Sayin'.
I am a very EC poor player myself (less than 2mill currently on all toons combined), and almost never have enough to get what I want immediately. When I want something, however, I put it the effort to make it happen. And I don't play more than 2 or 3 hours per day, lately even less. I also play WarThunder, MechWarrior and Civ5 regularly. It's not as hard as you are trying to make it out to be.
When I can't rely on my "PUG" team for anything, I might as well go out in a blaze of glory. Maybe draw one of the opponents out of the security of their team spam furball and take them down with me.
*shrug*
but when you can rely on your PUG team, isn't it glorious? the queue gods smile on us all once in a while
However. I see i missed the point. So i am out here. Thanks for your replies!
Coolio, thanks for your input.
So the "he's got better gear" argument is becoming a mute point real fast.
Imagine if all pugs thought "team based" in an arena. By default, you would be more effective.
How much more glorious would it be if both teams were pugs? That way the queue gods wouldn't have to smile as much on us.
Still just as likely to run into uncoordinated teams/players where 1 really good player could dominate. Still not a very appealing proposition.
This is all pure none sense, people are asking for two different ques. One for teams, one for people pugs. So that would in no way prevent people from teaming up and playing other teams. If you can not find other teams to play, that's too bad but that doesn't mean others should be asked to be curbstomped so you have someone to play.
People play the way this wish to play it not the way you wish. There's people that want to take whatever ship they want to play. There is people that god forbid want to play a eng in pvp. Pre mades have a advantage over pugs that are going in with a random group.
Your demands amount to demanding that you have the right to pug stomp people because you enjoy pug stomping people. I am sorry if your fragile ego wouldn't be able to withstand fighting other groups that could put up a fair fight but that's not a really good reason to demand Cryptic not change things so you have pugs to stomp.
I
Chillax. No Ego. No Drama.
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Super cool story bro.
Sounds like you have personal problem.
j/s
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
How many of them teams would actually queue up if our groups constantly queued up???
They wouldn't. It won't make a difference. I wish it would but it won't.
Perhaps I am wrong.
I wish, truely!
That said, Cryptic should focus some on the queue order of the public. If they made it easier to catch these teams... Anyway that could be an acceptable start.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The game lost execution pvp skill's anyway and there is no competitive scene, and can't be atm cause of the balance tweaks anyway. 2-3 Years ago was different, before it was f2p. So what you call guys premade i can't the old premades i talk about, had 3 setups, and only the a setup's used every micro second the game allowed to use for execution of tactics. And now? The server has so hard packet loss that's more about fun then skill.
Then maybe people could pick up this little thing I call "skills".
- Judge Aaron Satie