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The BortasQu' is a fine ship. No, seriously.

13

Comments

  • aveimperatoraveimperator Member Posts: 319 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    aetam1 wrote: »
    The ship is not that bad, I would agree. The problem is more the history.

    When you look back to the time we got the oddy/bort. The feds got a top of the line cruiser. They did not have a good turn cruiser anyway, other than the excelsior. So mainly they got an upgrade to the ship class that most feds used. Even better, it was the new enterprise. It also was a damn good healer.

    What did the klingons get? The bort was basically the opposite of kdf battle cruisers. People used to good turn rates and cannons got giant space whale. Also it was not that easy to buff turn back then.
    So to actually use that thing you had to go beams, not the most iconic klingon weapon. If you got your free vor'cha with DHC's, why buy this ship? And power drain with 8 beams was a bigger concern back then. So why not take a carrier instead, if you want a big tanky ship?
    While the station setup made a damn good healer, like the oddy, the right console slots to back that up were missing.

    So a bit exaggerated: The fed got the ship of their dreams, a new cruiser, a new enterprise that was superior to what they had.
    The klingons got a disappointment, a ship that did not fit their playstyle.


    Now these days we are again at a point were beams rule and turn rate is far easier to buff. But the station setup is not really good for atb. And if you simply want a dmg cruiser you are probably better of with a Tor'Kaht.

    The bort is not really a bad ship. It can do some serious dmg. But it is outclassed by others.

    The problem is that the KDF got a ship they had no idea how to play and couldn't follow their own retorts to Fed cruiser captains: learn to adapt.
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  • aveimperatoraveimperator Member Posts: 319 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    But the Bortas can cloak and equip DHCs.

    The Odyssey can't.

    Can't turn well enough to use DHCs? Boo-freakin'-hoo. Neither does the D'Deridex, but people still use'em and Feds have had to deal with bad turn rates forever. You told us to "lrn2play", and now complaints are up about A2B/FAW; how Fed cruisers "adapted" to their TRIBBLE turn rates. The JHDC turns like a brick too, but people use DHCs on that as well.

    Honestly, you Klinks are never happy. You've had content thrown at you every major update and you still scream you have no content. You've gotten more ships, with WAY more aesthetic flavor than the Feds get (Klingon, Orion, Gorn, Naussican, and Fek'iri ships). Sure, fewer C-Store ships but the one that they DID give you, you all HATED because...you refused to adapt and learn how to fly it because it couldn't turn on a dime like the ships you're used to.

    Poor. Frickin'. Babies.
  • marc8219marc8219 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    The Bortasqu is easily the best KDF battlecruiser for more experienced pilots, but power creep from ships like the Scimitar and Avenger make it not quite the best all around now.
    I can get close to my Scimitars DPS with the Bort, but the hangar and scimitar getting a little more tac abilities and better layout for a2b pushes it ahead slightly.

    As for a2b builds, yes the Bortasqu doesn't have the best boff layout for it, bully it neither does the Torhkat, and I don't use a2b on the Bort anyway. It actually is possible to do high dps with FAW without A2B, the Bort is one of the few ships that can do this without a2b.

    DHC is easy on it to now because of all the ways to keep your power high and the buff to turn rate on epte, RCS consoles, and impulse thrusters in LoR.
    Tala -KDF Tac- House of Beautiful Orions
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  • tom61stotom61sto Member Posts: 3,674 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    f2pdrakron wrote: »
    Reason why the Odyssey had good sales was because Federation players were used to Cruisers and that what the Odyssey was, the Bortasqu' fault is that it was a heavy battlecruiser instead of a another Bird-of-Prey and all complains leveled against it appear to be just this: "Its not a Tor'Kaht".

    That is a pretty damning fault. The Fleet Tor'Kaht seems to be the only KDF ship released in the past two years that is well liked. Though, the Bort wasn't well liked even it was released, even without the Tor'Kaht to pull down it's relative rank.
  • mimey2mimey2 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    f2pdrakron wrote: »
    This is the type of mentality that killed the ship.

    The Jem Hadar Dreadnought Carrier have a worst turn rate, it have more hull and shields but when they come out what I was seeing was a lot of those dying, any ship can die and the JHDC is not a bad ship, its a harsh to pilot ship.

    The Bortasqu' is a heavy weapons plataform, a siege weapon but it cannot move ... the problem is not it cannot use DHCs but rather WHEN it should use DHCs, trying to make it act like a BoP means its not going to work and thats pretty much what the issue, not the ship but the player.

    Its not a B'rel yet if its not a B'rel then it seems "its garbage" because of the refusal to fly it as anything else but as a B'rel, the Bortasqu' is better that the Odyssey because the Odyssey is locked out from using their 3 consoles at the same time, the Bortasqu' can use their 3 consoles that have good synergy (well 2 at least).

    Reason why the Odyssey had good sales was because Federation players were used to Cruisers and that what the Odyssey was, the Bortasqu' fault is that it was a heavy battlecruiser instead of a another Bird-of-Prey and all complains leveled against it appear to be just this: "Its not a Tor'Kaht".

    I will agree that the Bortas is a 'harsh to pilot' ship. You really gotta work at it to make it worthwhile enough.

    But comparing it to the J-Dread isn't a fair enough comparison. The J-dread is a dedicated carrier, and has a Cmdr tac, so it has similar things to the more recent Scimitar than the Bortas. Yes it is slow and such much like the Bortas, but it also has carrier pets to help it do stuff, the Bortas doesn't have access to those (and the BoP it can launch can only do so much).

    I've always treated it like a siege platform as well. Kept DHCs on it despite most people saying not to, and could blast a gate pretty harshly in an STF. Also played with it with beams as well.

    Comparing it to the Tor'kaht isn't as fair either, because when the flagships were first released, they were the first 10 console ships (even the lockbox ships at that point were still 9 console ships if memory serves) in the game, and the fleet system wasn't released until later that year. So there was no Tor'kaht, or any other fleet level ships yet. Pretty much, for similar comparisons, we had the basic Negh'var, and basic Vor'cha in terms of BCs at the time.

    While cannons have always been an addition to battlecruisers, I think a lot of people chose to run most BCs with beams, even the faster ones. Sure the Tor'kaht was a great ship when it came out, but I've seen a lot of beam-based versions of that ship, and other BCs. So being able to use DHCs has always been more an option, than any kind of requirement, heck, seen a lot of folks say they don't like using DHCs on most BCs because they don't consider many of them fast enough, or have the BO layout to handle them well enough. Ironically, the Tor'kaht and Bortas (if you choose to) have the best layouts for DHCs.
    I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
    I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
  • overlapooverlapo Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    I fly the Tac version in my main KDF. I used a 2DHC/2cannons and 4 turrets + leech build for ages before the RCS and cruiser commands changes and while it was more difficult than a raptor/escort it was certainly possible and typically had escort damage and cruiser endurance. With the last changes I am getting a turn rate of 16 with the engine power set to 15, so I don't think it is such a hard ship now.
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  • mimey2mimey2 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    f2pdrakron wrote: »
    I just used the JHDC as a example of a ship that can be problematic to use, I could say most lock box ships when they come up die a lot, single out the JHDC for that was not fair in my part, I admit.

    Problem is the JHDC doesnt come with Frigates and you have to get a JHAS for the pet frigate that makes you being stuck with fighter pets that are less durable, the only full carrier that is worst off is the Atrox that lacks any frigates.

    The Bortas have more firepower, can Cloak, its attack pet even if wastes a console is more competent that the JH fighters, granted the timer on the Aquarius/BoP is pretty long and does waste a console slot.

    In the end they are different ships but have some similarities on gameplay as both are ships that when on the offensive using their weapons they pretty much have to be facing the target and unleash.

    Of course not but the issue is that, it wasnt a Tor'kaht ... it didnt have turn rate 10 that was what doomed the Bortas as "eek, do not want" because its a typical cruiser ... you can make it turn as well as the Galaxy with 2 consoles equipped, some ships can mount DHCs but thats not advisable, for example the JHDC can but thats not a good idea because it cannot even function as a ambush ship.

    What doomed the Bortas was expectations of being in the same like as the Vor'cha Retrofit, thats why I brought the Tor'kaht and in turn it was a Odyssey variant, people looked at the 5.5 turn rate and stop looking at the rest.

    Fair point on the J-dread. I admit, never had any desire to fly one, but I do agree that being forced to have a Bug just to own JHAS pets is more than a little insane. The Atrox may not have frigate level pets, but at least they probably won't twist your arm to get them if they ever release them. I guess a decent comparison would've been...maybe the Adapted Battlecruiser. Which is huge, slow, can equip cannons, can potentially hit decently hard, and generally isn't as used as some other ships.

    I wouldn't say the Bortas has better firepower, more like better potential firepower. You can't just load it up with weapons and tac consoles and expect 'uber DPS' like you can out of something like a Bug, or something else with 5 tac consoles. It takes more work to get some return on it.

    Well, it CAN cloak, but that cloak is kinda gimped, I guess for 'balance' reasons. Sure against NPCs that won't matter much, and also against 'Joe Average' in PvP with 50 Aux and no points in Sensors, but even a decent sci captain worth his space-salt will have at least 6 points into Sensors, and be able to easily see you a few KM out without much work.

    I do think the Bortas is a good ship, and has good potential, it just takes more work to get it out. BUT, when it came out, people voted with their wallets, and didn't buy it. I also voted and DID buy it shortly after it came out, and have been using it since. Even so, people chose not to buy it, and thus began the long drought of KDF C-store ships (those low level BoPs are still just that: Low level BoPs for the sake of the new content).

    But on the other end, I do feel that people griping about the Bortas is justified. Not only do some consider it lesser than other ships, it is meant to be the 'flagship' after all. The Odyssey worked because it had many of the strengths people were used to in most Fed cruisers: yes it was slow, yes it couldn't use DHCs, but it was tough as nails, had universal BOFFs (much fewer ships had those at the time outside of BoPs), etc. The Bortas to many people felt like it was gimped, it was slow, it couldn't get a good turn rate (compared to the Odyssey, which could at least ditch the saucer section), had a gimped cloak compared to other ships, and so on.

    The Bortas was also something the KDF didn't need (and arguably, the Feds didn't really need another cruisers either, but eh). Even with only the Vor'cha and Negh'var for comparison, we were pretty set on BCs for awhile. I mean, even after that, with the fleet system, they added a BUNCH of retrofitted and fleet level battlecruisers. Yes the Fed side started with more at the get-go, but it was also ships that most people didn't mind getting, and they also got a good variety of other ship types mixed in, including many FSM-discounted ships.

    I also don't think that it should've been used as an immediately and long-term excuse of 'well the last one didn't sell, so we won't make anymore tier 5 KDF C-store ships, at all'. Though they've certainly strung us along about a new one. Honestly, I see it more as a way of learning from their mistakes. Though interestingly enough, I see that more in the Avenger. I mean, putting aside the '5-forward weapons' thing, it basically is everything most people like in a battle cruiser: Good base turn, a solid BOFF layout, a console layout that goes well with it, can equip cannons, and so on. It also obsoleted my D'kora, but...oh well. Still, point being is that they haven't given the KDF anything since, and not even what we ask for.
    I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
    I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
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  • panserbjorne39panserbjorne39 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Anytime I see a Bort on my team in Arena, i sigh and think about how i'll have to focus all my heals on it while it gets zero kills and does negligible damage and then we lose. It's just a liability on a team. A huge, slow moving target ran only by noobs really.
    The Bort is more work and more trouble than it's worth in almost any situation. To say it's a "fine ship" and that you do well with it in PvP is kinda silly. For PvE content in this game, any ship is a fine ship.
  • marc8219marc8219 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    patrickngo wrote: »
    point being, it's sub-par except as a FAW boat, and sub-par compared to Fed ships in the FAW boat role.

    "Neither fish, nor fowl, nor good red meat."

    see, Battlecruiser pretty much comes down to a role where you have a Cruiser, that uses DHC Effectively, it's "Manueverable" and sacrifices a small amount of hull to get that.

    The Bort's NOT fit in that role. It doesn't function well in ANY role, when compared to it's price-peers, generation of release, or even it's present peers.

    Once they fix the FAW bug with the procs, it's going to be a HELL of a lot less effective than it is NOW.

    forget the Scim-that's OP because they wanted to sell romulan stuff, it's also a later generation design in terms of game development.

    Compare it to it's actual PEERS in age, size, and role... and it falls on it's face. It underperforms as a Cruiser, and it underperforms as a BATTLE cruiser.

    and it does so even MORE now, than it did at release, in spite of the various boosts you can get from the fleet consoles and rep gear.

    for, say, a player who isn't an LTS, it's fifty-five dollars to get a ship that still underperforms compared to an Oddy.

    The extra five is for the respec token, and that's if you go with a niche build that relies on a proc chance the Developers have admitted is broken.

    If you're spending fifty bucks for a ship, you shouldn't have to rely on exploiting a bug to make it work.

    I didn't say Fed ships were better at FAW, I said they have better boff layouts for A2B. A2B helps, but is not required for high DPS FAW builds, what is required is overcapping and DEM. Its possible to do high DPS with FAW without using A2B and the Bort is one of the few ships that can do it and keep up with A2B cruisers, and have better aux based heals at the same time since aux isn't being drained.

    You have been bashing the Bortasqu forever, but I doubt you have tried it since LoR, its much easier to handle and I still use DHC on it a lot also and have no problem keeping up or doing more DPS then DHC escorts in STFs while using the Bort, or keeping up with Fed A2B cruisers while using beams.
    Tala -KDF Tac- House of Beautiful Orions
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Yeah, Bortas is the closest thing the KDF has to a heavy cruiser in the game. It's not quite a heavy cruiser though... but it seems to play better if built like one. The D'D is in the same grey area. It works like a heavy cruiser but doesn't have all the benefits, and it also gets DHC...
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
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  • marc8219marc8219 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    patrickngo wrote: »

    The big problem the Bort has, is that when you go outside of scripted content, it falls apart and you're left relying on BFAW as your only option for damage-dealing...and in that role, it's outclassed by it's better designed brother, the Odyssey.

    .

    I fail to see how the Oddy is better as a FAW boat, same boff layout, 2 less tac consoles, .5 more turn slightly better inertia, .1 more shield mod, less hull, no cloak.

    I set my bort up yesterday after not using it for awhile and consistently get matches with 1.5 mil sometimes 2 mil damage, and make it easier for the rest of the team by keeping spam cleared. Yes its a little less tankier then the oddy, but the decloaking FAW attack fully buffed up by a tac is one of the most powerful FAW bursts, only outdone by the scimitar.

    As for DHC like I said your info is outdated, I have little problem using DHC on it in PVE, and still do it for PVP sometimes. A decloaking attack with 4 DHC, 5 tac consoles, romulan boffs finishes most players before they have a chance to move much, the dem3 rips right through their RSP and still usually kills them if they RSP in time, its great for kerrat ambushes or cap and hold for hunting lone targets that are capping, but not so good in arena.
    Tala -KDF Tac- House of Beautiful Orions
  • aurigas7aurigas7 Member Posts: 488 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    People used to slow beam cruisers get a ship which gets kinda nimble thanks to saucer seperation. :D
    People used to nimble cannon boats get the ship with highest inertia ingame. :mad:

    Guess which ship sells better.

    I testet the triple pack on tribble and was quite satisfied with the command version, but heck, that thing is so fugly and un-Klingon... I eventuelly bought a fleet Negh'var for my KDF engineer.
    Vorcha_forward.jpg
  • mscowboymscowboy Member Posts: 231 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    The only thing I dislike is the name.


    It used to be cool. I thought it was meant to be said "borTAWSK!". A very strong, klingon name. But then the sphere FE came along with some characters voicing the name as "bortaskew", which in memory of old Sir Daniel Fortasque I can only ever imagine being said in a jolly british accent. Not Klingon at all...
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  • marc8219marc8219 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    patrickngo wrote: »
    as for DHC...your firing arc didn't suddenly get wider, did it? And your Inertia-did they improve that? HOw about that base turn rate? Sure, the cruiser commands help some, but your base turn rate's still second lowest and only behind the Vo'Quv...which has better Inertia numbers.

    .

    Its also aux2 ID , impulse thrusters skill, epte, and rcs and tachykinetic consoles were improved since LoR, and dil mine consoles added, its really not so hard to handle anymore with all the options out there. also I have the oddy, the survivability and handling isn't really much better, but it has a noticeable dps loss. Out of all my ships it was my goto ship whenever I needed to parse to get into DPS channels, and I have tacs with the best fed and romulan ships also and bugship, but still use the bort a lot. you do see a few other borts in those channels too, probably the only KDF battlecruiser seen there.
    Tala -KDF Tac- House of Beautiful Orions
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  • mll623mll623 Member Posts: 135 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    It is a 5 tac console cruiser - that alone makes it worth using for PVE.

    It is not as useful for PVP, but PVP is completely broken. You have 2 choices - disables/sci or decloak ambush.
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  • marc8219marc8219 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    patrickngo wrote: »
    but the question is: what do you RUN in those channels? My bet is ISE, maybe CSE, an occasional Khitomer Space?

    t.

    Yes mostly ISE, and KSE and CSE but not nearly as much as ISE. THe Bort absolutley slaughters ISE, much more then a Torhkat could, so yes you have a point its good for farming STFs. It doesn't just do OK, its one of the best cruisers for that, in the same league as the Scimitar and FACR, but the Torhkat isn't quite up there though. Yes outside of STFs, the Torhkats manuverability can make it more useful, but my point is the Bort isn't just a useless ship, it has areas it excels at, and so does the torhkat. I don't feel ripped off by getting it Maybe the 3 pack isn't worth it until the consoles are improved, but the tac version definetly is.
    Tala -KDF Tac- House of Beautiful Orions
  • oakland4lifeoakland4life Member Posts: 545 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    I think on average the Bortasqu' is ok ship in pvp depending who's behind the helm. but the best PvP Bortasqu' i ever seen would be Zac's, his bortas can withstand alot of damage and dishing out massive amounts of damage towards his enemies... alot more damage than most fed escort players can do.

    As for the downside for the Bortasqu' i think many of us know what it is.
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  • tksmittytksmitty Member Posts: 173 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    patrickngo wrote: »
    ...THIS is what makes it a bad design, the fact that Cryptic then used it's poor sales figures for three years to justify a 'no new Klingon Ships/content' decision underscores.

    They could not have miscalculated worse, if they'd been doing it on purpose, it has ONE, NARROW field where it's adequate-and that requires a specialty build and often as not a respec.

    When you compare it to it's peers, whether by generation, classification, or price, it's the lesser ship. When it goes into an environment of direct competition, it fails.
    THAT is a problem.

    First, I use the Tac Bortasqu' from time to time on my KDF Tac. I do run cannons on it, but I don't PvP (too many wallet warriors and ***wipes for my tastes). I also tend to fly what I want, to hell with the opinion of others.

    Have you ever considered that it was meant to be gimped from the beginning? Maybe the devs knew it would be contrary to what KDF captains are used to? They knew it wouldn't sell well and would later give them an excuse to not have to make any new KDF ships.

    I'd like to think that the devs wouldn't be that low, but I'm just throwing that out there.
    Current ship/builds:
    KDF Tac: Bortasqu' Tactical
    Fed Tac: Fleet Gal-X

    Keep those big guns a-thunderin'
  • oakland4lifeoakland4life Member Posts: 545 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    patrickngo wrote: »
    It's not the consoles that are the problem-it's underlying on the ship, esp. now with "Cruiser Powers" in the mix.

    when you sacrifice certain abilities for other abilities, the gain needs to be equal to the loss.

    What you get with a Bort, is a buggy cloak that barely works in PvE, and the ability to mount narrow-focus weapons..on a ship that handles like the heavier and less well tuned big brother of a Cruiser, whose best builds are straight beam-cruiser builds.

    What you sacrifice for this:

    defense, manueverability-it's actually LESS manueverable than any ship short of the Vo'Quv Carrier (a vessel that doesn't just carry ONE modified BoP, it can field FOUR, and replenish them faster than the single BoP the Bort can field).

    In tank terms, it's an under engined assault gun with bad brakes, in a world where MBT's with good suspension and armor are commonplace and armies are also using attack helicopters.

    THIS is what makes it a bad design, the fact that Cryptic then used it's poor sales figures for three years to justify a 'no new Klingon Ships/content' decision underscores.

    They could not have miscalculated worse, if they'd been doing it on purpose, it has ONE, NARROW field where it's adequate-and that requires a specialty build and often as not a respec.

    When you compare it to it's peers, whether by generation, classification, or price, it's the lesser ship. When it goes into an environment of direct competition, it fails.
    THAT is a problem.

    I have consider buying a Bortasqu' few times b4, but never got it because mostly of it's lack of mobility, whats the turn rate of it like 5.5? but u do made many valid points especially Cryptic's handling of the Bortasqu' and the KDF in general, this is no doubt a example that when Cryptic ignoring the ppl flys that ship and they speak of it's flaws, Cryptic tend to look the other way and make excuses and blaming the player base why it not sell well at all.
  • oakland4lifeoakland4life Member Posts: 545 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    tksmitty wrote: »
    I'd like to think that the devs wouldn't be that low, but I'm just throwing that out there.

    I would like to think so as well, but their actions speak far louder than their words when it come down to the KDF.
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