Against the conspiracionist theory of KDF not being profitable cause people magically choses to not like KDF and not playing and paying for them, you can only compare what Cryptic/PWE offers in the first place:
-Shinies, ships, bridges, uniforms, atractive bundles, best faction in game.
KDF:
-Tutorial
That's about it. Considering STO is a game about fandom, shinies, aesthetics, more than gameplay (except for the little pvp and some hardcore stf'ers), it's clear that in the current state of the game there are just two factions, Fed and Rom, and Cryptic didnt even attempt to try out with an hypotetical 3rd faction, the KDF.
When you think about it, the KDF have a lot working against 'em here. The Federation have, due to the way things have been handled, a considerable 'advantage' in numbers, which leads to a reduction of doff costs because of a larger supply. Then there's the fact that the Federation now have carriers of their own that can more or less hold their own against the KDF selection, removing that gameplay incentive to play KDF. Now with LoR, people can roll a Fed-Rom and have a Federation-aligned battlecloaking ship that isn't nerfed to hell like the KDF BoP is, so the KDF no longer has the 'advantage' of cloaks because it's all regular cloaks. Lastly, Federation now has relatively cheap access to almost every good console the KDF had (most recent being the plasmonic leech), so they don't even need to roll a KDF to have access to these formerly-exclusive consoles.
About the only 'advantage' KDF has now is the contraband given out by marauding missions, and you can just farm that without caring about what happens to the faction development-wise. Heck, they're even trying to finish off the KDF's battlecruiser advantage (already weakened by the introduction of Romulan battlecloaking battlecruisers) by giving the Feddies this 'Avenger-class' ship. . .we'll have to wait and see how good it is first. Wouldn't be surprised if it's a C-Store carbon-copy of the non-Fleet K't'inga provided by the T1 shipyard, or something.
Meanwhile, the Federation retains good escort, science ship, and even cruiser ship selections (soon to be improved by this new ship, most likely) along with their own compliment of carriers/hybrid carriers. With Romulans in the mix, there's really no functional point in anyone bothering with the KDF. In fact, you're giving up access to a strong science ship line and other inherent advantages the Federation faction has.
When you think about it, the KDF have a lot working against 'em here. The Federation have, due to the way things have been handled, a considerable 'advantage' in numbers, which leads to a reduction of doff costs because of a larger supply. Then there's the fact that the Federation now have carriers of their own that can more or less hold their own against the KDF selection, removing that gameplay incentive to play KDF. Now with LoR, people can roll a Fed-Rom and have a Federation-aligned battlecloaking ship that isn't nerfed to hell like the KDF BoP is, so the KDF no longer has the 'advantage' of cloaks because it's all regular cloaks. Lastly, Federation now has relatively cheap access to almost every good console the KDF had (most recent being the plasmonic leech), so they don't even need to roll a KDF to have access to these formerly-exclusive consoles.
About the only 'advantage' KDF has now is the contraband given out by marauding missions, and you can just farm that without caring about what happens to the faction development-wise. Heck, they're even trying to finish off the KDF's battlecruiser advantage (already weakened by the introduction of Romulan battlecloaking battlecruisers) by giving the Feddies this 'Avenger-class' ship. . .we'll have to wait and see how good it is first. Wouldn't be surprised if it's a C-Store carbon-copy of the non-Fleet K't'inga provided by the T1 shipyard, or something.
Meanwhile, the Federation retains good escort, science ship, and even cruiser ship selections (soon to be improved by this new ship, most likely) along with their own compliment of carriers/hybrid carriers. With Romulans in the mix, there's really no functional point in anyone bothering with the KDF. In fact, you're giving up access to a strong science ship line and other inherent advantages the Federation faction has.
My idea is that is not just about giving or retaining kdf exclusivities (they're already gone with LoT and battlecruisers as you well say), it just about giving em the first starting point in some other aspects that are attractive to new players in the first place, specially the kind of playerbase that Cryptic tends to lure, non-gamer middle-agers economicaly solvent willing to spend money in its trek fandom. Cryptic didnt even attempt to lure a decent bunch of vanity options in the first place like they've done with romulans following the example of the starfleet faction. So that basically proves that Cryptic has not even tried to take advantage of the inherent rich variety of possibility that KDF has (not just klingons, gorn, orions, nausicaans).
In the very beginning of the game, when STO was supposed to shine as an mmo in gameplay mechanics, kdf were gonna be the hardcore pvp faction. STO has passed through a huge conversion since this initial idea, but kdf is still stucked in that idea, when the other two factions are entirely comitted to the current marketing politic. And then we have the consecuences: if you dont lure players into a faction in the first place, then releasing ships and useful content wont be profitable. Circular problem that can be only solved if Cryptic/PWE someday decides to expand is playerbase (same situation as pvp).
My idea is that is not just about giving or retaining kdf exclusivities (they're already gone with LoT and battlecruisers as you well say), it just about giving em the first starting point in some other aspects that are attractive to new players in the first place, specially the kind of playerbase that Cryptic tends to lure, non-gamer middle-agers economicaly solvent willing to spend money in its trek fandom. Cryptic didnt even attempt to lure a decent bunch of vanity options in the first place like they've done with romulans following the example of the starfleet faction. So that basically proves that Cryptic has not even tried to take advantage of the inherent rich variety of possibility that KDF has (not just klingons, gorn, orions, nausicaans).
In the very beginning of the game, when STO was supposed to shine as an mmo in gameplay mechanics, kdf were gonna be the hardcore pvp faction. STO has passed through a huge conversion since this initial idea, but kdf is still stucked in that idea, when the other two factions are entirely comitted to the current marketing politic. And then we have the consecuences: if you dont lure players into a faction in the first place, then releasing ships and useful content wont be profitable. Circular problem that can be only solved if Cryptic/PWE someday decides to expand is playerbase (same situation as pvp).
You seem like you have a firmer grip on reality than most. You see it as a circular problem, just as I do. Cryptic doesn't create a lot of things for the KDF because there's no money in creating things for the KDF because they don't create a lot of things for the KDF because there's no money in the KDF because they don't create a lot of things... etc. etc., this is the circular logic that's really just been spinning in place for a while.
It's this circular problem that I hope gets resolved whenever the KDF do get their ship. I hope that sales are impressive enough that they'll want to start devoting more resources to the KDF, because the KDF does deserve more than what it currently has. I hope enough of them are purchased that Cryptic can say, "There's money in the KDF despite our past evaluations, let's start producing more KDF ships."
You seem like you have a firmer grip on reality than most. You see it as a circular problem, just as I do. Cryptic doesn't create a lot of things for the KDF because there's no money in creating things for the KDF because they don't create a lot of things for the KDF because there's no money in the KDF because they don't create a lot of things... etc. etc., this is the circular logic that's really just been spinning in place for a while.
It's this circular problem that I hope gets resolved whenever the KDF do get their ship. I hope that sales are impressive enough that they'll want to start devoting more resources to the KDF, because the KDF does deserve more than what it currently has. I hope enough of them are purchased that Cryptic can say, "There's money in the KDF despite our past evaluations, let's start producing more KDF ships."
Yeah ships are indeed a very important thing in space ships game, seems that kdf's arent an important part in this particular space ship game :rolleyes:
As for me, I'd probably play more kdf if I could have a more naked orion costume in the c-store. They're not naked enough! Then I tell you sci ships would fall as rain...
Or stuff like this and new badass 25th century BoPs would emerge everywere...
Well I think i made my point of the need for more attractiveness and how cryptic could start breaking the circle...
While starfleet and roms adapted to 2013, klinks are still 80's heavy metals from the time of tng in the aesthetic and a vaporware faction in the utility... Releasing a ship -a good one- I'm afraid is not enough at this point, but dreaming of a kdf LoR is as futile as dreaming about a pvp LoR... PWE/Cryptic has lost any ambition and they're grabbing at is current little player base without any sign of change or expansion in the near future... So yeah, some bones throwed from time to time and that'll be all, gentleman
Edit: the credit fot the LoR expansion is still there, although we could not agree with some aspects, Cryptic/PWE for the first time showed their teeth with STO, but they seems to have been exhausted too son, and now then, season 8, more reputation...
Not a valid analogy. Cryptic doesn't make promises about giving the factions future content, they probably will, but they aren't legally or morally obligated to do so. I think this is part of why they did the expansion to the KDF in LoR, they want to see if the numbers will increase.
I never said anything about them being being legally or morally obligated... I said it was expected by their customers of which they have the right to. The expansion to the KDF was exactly the reason they said it themselves to get the KDF numbers up. Read up on the ask cryptic interviews.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
I love the "Cryptic didn't make a profit" argument. So they didnt make enough in the release to pay for the artists that created it but in 3 monthes they might, in 6 monthes they will most likely have and in a year it should be a definatly did make that money back and start making a profit on it.
Once the ship is made it is done. It's not like making cars or cans of soup where once its sold you have to make another to sell. eventualy it will be 100% profit because it costs them nothing to keep it in the store, the amount that was used in creating is paid back, and they never have to do a thing to maintain it. Plus it can make even more profit by having someone change the stats and add a console slot and call it a refit, and do that again and call it a fleet retrofit. The money is in the artwork and not the stats and consoles.
As for the Avenger it looks like it was an early design of the Regent that was pulled from mothballs and cleaned up a bit, and details added. probably isnt taking much time to finish it. I doubt my Fed engi will be flying it since I have the fleet assault cruiser already.
Oh and My 2 KDF officers wouldnt mind something new being offered. A nice KDF flight deck assault cruiser, 4 fore and aft weapons, same Boff and console as the regent, +1 hangar bay and a fleet variant with same setup as the fleet assault cruiser fed side. That would be my first choice of ships to buy for my KDF engi. As for cannon cruisers KDf has plenty of those. Bops? plenty but could use some updated console/boff layout ones.
Join Date: Nobody cares.
"I'm drunk, whats your excuse for being an idiot?" - Unknown drunk man. :eek:
I love the "Cryptic didn't make a profit" argument. So they didnt make enough in the release to pay for the artists that created it but in 3 monthes they might, in 6 monthes they will most likely have and in a year it should be a definatly did make that money back and start making a profit on it.
Once the ship is made it is done. It's not like making cars or cans of soup where once its sold you have to make another to sell. eventualy it will be 100% profit because it costs them nothing to keep it in the store, the amount that was used in creating is paid back, and they never have to do a thing to maintain it. Plus it can make even more profit by having someone change the stats and add a console slot and call it a refit, and do that again and call it a fleet retrofit. The money is in the artwork and not the stats and consoles.
Commerce doesn't work that way. You don't go to the bank and say, "I didn't make enough money to cover the mortgage this month, but in 3 to 6 months I might depending on how good business is."
They would be in the right for saying you defaulted on your mortgage payment.
Likewise for employees at Cryptic, or Cryptic's bandwidth bills, or any of the other multitude of areas in regards to upkeep of Cryptic Studios and the game itself. You don't say, "Here are some I.O.U.'s for payroll, we're good for it. Just wait 3 to 6 months for said KDF ship to make enough to cover the costs it took producing it."
Besides that, to say there is no more upkeep on ships once it hits the c-store is misleading at best, and a big fat lie at worst. Ships in the C-store get altered, reworked, nerfed, buffed, given artistic attention, etc. all the time. All of which requires paid employees to devote labor hours to far beyond the date they hit the cash shop.
Okay... for the guys who keep babbling on about the Bortasqu being the last T5 ship KDF got... not true! You got the Retrofit Karmarang if you ran the Azure Mission during THAT event...
If you're gonna be pissed off... be pissed off right....
We don't want what the Feds have. We want the equivalent. We want fairer treatment. Concern, desire, greed to some extent, and passionate belief that the enough people would buy KDF items to make it worth Cryptic's while.
Okay... for the guys who keep babbling on about the Bortasqu being the last T5 ship KDF got... not true! You got the Retrofit Karmarang if you ran the Azure Mission during THAT event...
If you're gonna be pissed off... be pissed off right....
Whilst some might call this "moving the goalposts" the actual argument is intended to be that the last C-Store ship was the Bortasa'qu. A free T5 ship does not earn Cryptic money to invest in future KDF development. Personally I loved the Kamarag and if the T5 version of the Ambassador and Kamarag had been C-store only I'd have bought it. It was free so we all lucked out (if you ran the mission in time).
I am, and others are, arguing that we cannot buy a new C-store ship to prove the KDF fans will buy a new C-store ship if Cryptic don't make the ship to sell to us in the first place. Yet others are suggesting Cryptic won't make a KDF C-store ship because we KDF fans don't buy enough stuff from the limited KDF C-store range to justify making the ship in the first place. Do you see the irony? Iconians does.
If you're gonna tell people they are wrong... at least read the whole thread so you can tell them off right....
"...we are far more united and have far more in common with each other than the things that divide us.”
Jo Cox 22.6.1974 - 16.6.2016
IOW they didn't make money on it, because they built it intentionally to suck.
Because that's how businesses operate. They purposefully sabotage their own efforts and devote thousands of dollars and countless labor hours to create something people won't buy. That's how businesses remain in business, by creating stuff that people won't buy.
No, it's not how business operate, it's how FAN RUN businesses operate. Spend enough time working in the industry (online, tabletop, etc.) and you find out:
Gaming Companies are run by Gamers-if there are factions involved, the faction with the most members of staff playing them, will get more attention, content, and benefits.
Remember also thus; Cryptic nearly closed it's doors before PWE bailed them out. How did they get into that financial situation?
NOT by acting like a business.
So Cryptic nearly closed its doors because it wasn't acting like a business.
And not because Atari was going bankrupt and they had to sell the only asset they had that was making any money because all of their other assets were near-worthless, and because Atari had no idea how MMOs worked.
Nothing of which was directly related to Cryptic Studios' performance. The fact Cryptic Studios was one of the first things to go was because it was an asset that was actually making money.
Yes, I can read a press release as well as you can. But...
when I was a kid, Atari had the market locked-up-they were "IT". They lost the console market by two things:
1) being unresponsive to technical changes
2) being unresponsive to Market Demand.
Ever heard of the "Atari Jaguar"? this was their home-computer attempt to regain the share they were losing to the IBM P.C., Commodore Vic-20/64/128, etc. etc. etc.
It was TRIBBLE. and it was 'brand name priced' TRIBBLE.
Atari wound up OWNED by Infogames because they couldn't keep their business house in order in the first place.
a little while later, it was Nintendo, then Sega.
But Atari's been just-this-side-of-the-dustbin and passed through enough parent companies to be little more than a trademark.
So we go to Cryptic...which hasn't been setting the world on fire in spite of a few promising starts and rooking the 'whale' with the Star Trek license.
Profitable subscription games don't go Free to Play in the first five years. UN profitable games go free to play in the first five years.
STO doesn't have a comparable competitor-because of the "Star Trek" license-so gameplay isn't a priority, keeping the license is-and that's not hard, all you have to do, is be willing to let CBS do some oversight, and not lose the servers more than a day or so at a time.
as long as the license fees get paid (and without any other Star Trek properties really out there, that's not as hard as you think-it's a devalued property that's only started regaining value after the JJ Abrams movies came out) and specific restrictions are observed (No T5 Connies, No JJ 'verse models) the rest of it's back to gameplay.
and let's look at gameplay for a moment.
PVE: both linear, and scripted, Level cap at 50, you can level a toon in a weekend and still catch football sunday night. Post Level 50 you have a handfull of 'raid' style missions that are highly linear and scripted-your PvE opposition follows known routes in known numbers using minimal abilities.
PvP: Here's your problem gameplay wise in this one three-letter acronym-which happens to be where a large portion of your KDF players exist, and why KDF players can turn up and be effective against Fed players even with inferior ships.
In inferior numbers.
The only Dev who's bothered to show their face where PvP is possible, is Geko-and he only did it for an afternoon over Ker'rat...ONCE.
When the Bortasque was released, the KDF were something you had to grind 25 levels of Federation to unlock. There was no such thing as KDF 'starter missions', and little to level with beyond Mirror events (which weren't always available-they're actually relatively new) or PvP.
Oddly enough, the KDF ship designs from that era (the free ones and the lower tier C-store ones) reflected this-they were quick turning, could mount good firepower off the front end, and had Cloaks and/or Battle cloaks.
Tracking so far, cully?
Describe the market you're going to design a ship for, based on those conditions?
Without lying to yourself, the correct answer would be "NOT the Bortasque".
You're going to design your "Faction Flagship" to your faction's STRENGTHS, not a ship that is every weakness of their opponents.
This is HOW and WHY the Bort failed to make money.
People still buy Ning'taos, people still buy Ch'Tangs, they still buy every one of the original pre-LoR KDF ships (except the Gorn ships...they had to give those away...) in fair to large numbers.
Why? because they WORK, and because they came with consoles that could be transferred tot he next ship that worked.
Cryptic designed the Bort exactly OPPOSITE of how to design a KDF ship to appeal to KDF players-then declared the entire community unprofitable because their fifty dollar boondoggle wasn't selling.
and why should it? It's a fifty dollar ship that requires heavy respec and time investment to make work as well as the next lower tier battlecruiser.
But you're right in one respect-Incompetence is certainly more LIKELY than malice-at least, in that case.
What shifts the focus though, is that two weeks prior to the announcement of the new FED Battlecruiser, we were all told that the KDF ship scheduled for release this year (there was only supposed to be one!) had to be pushed to next year-to enable completion of material for Season 8, specifically the Voth.
Two weeks after that announcement, they're hyping a new FEDERATION battlecruiser-one that can use the Feds' cloaking console,a nd if it follows the example of the Vesta, will probably be able to mount DHC's.
Which is a significant upgrade of Federation player-capability in terms of what their ships can do in the Cruiser class.
apparently the work on the Voth for S8 didn't impact that development, did it?
From a marketing standpoint, one must wonder what the **** Stahl and the boys were smoking-because the confluence of those events are quite suitable fuel for suspcions of their motives, ethics, and honesty.
not good for making money.
The North American video game crash of 1983 had a multitude of reasons and causes involved. For Atari, and this was a fatal mistake that to this day continues to remind the video game industry everywhere as a warning... was the Atari 2600's failure, in particular the E.T. game which was a disaster, and the 'port' of Pac-Man that was extremely rushed. Throw on the lawsuits that Atari was constantly embroiled in, the money spent on trying to lobby Washington D.C. into minting a smaller $1 coin that could fit into their arcades, and an oversaturation of videogames during the christmas season based on faulty marketing intel, and you have the resulting game crash of 1983. The Atari Jaguar, while also a commercial failure, was not the most prolific of Atari's blunders, and this was in 1993-1994.
As far as Cryptic goes, I'd say that City of Heroes and City of Villains more or less proved they have what it takes to start a fire. The game was cancelled only recently, but launched in 2004, a few months before WoW launched.
Now you're entering the realm of f2p vs. subscription-based models. You're trying to infer that correlation = causation in regards to f2p and STO. The fact of the matter is f2p makes more money than subscription-based models. Even today, you'll find that subscription-only models are all but extinct, and the ones that aren't are quickly going out the door. That's not a Cryptic/STO thing, that's a gaming industry trend. The MMO market is oversaturated and every MMO is trying to compete against each other for a bigger slice of the pie -- that pie being player numbers and subsequently money spent on microtransactions, with lesser emphasis on subscriptions. STO going f2p was the only choice there was to make. It was only a matter of time and the only people who don't believe that are the ones who don't pay attention to market trends.
As far as PvE and PvP goes... STO is a casual game. It was always supposed to be a casual game. Cryptic has never done PvP well. Not in CoH/CoV, not in Champions Online. PvP is just not something Cryptic can do well.
When it comes to the Bortasqu'... honestly? The game is easy. I've said this multiple times and it never stops being true. The Bortasqu' is only as obsolete/TRIBBLE as someone wants it to be. I've seen good Bortasqu' players perform very well in the ship. When Cryptic routinely nerfs PvE content because of players saying it's too hard, I tend to discount any arguement that Cryptic goes out of its way to hurt ship design.
Describe the market you're going for in regards to the Bortasqu'? The market would largely consist of players who simply enjoy playing the KDF. When PvP in the game is invariably broken, and when PvE is watered down enough to be considered unchallenging by veteran players -- then the target demographic consists of KDF fans who want a nice big ship with nifty toys on it.
It doesn't have to be complicated. Because the game itself is not complicated.
Just as what I've been saying isn't complicated. One faction makes money. One faction is subsidized by the faction that makes money. They can keep throwing the KDF a bone every once in a while and continue to 'test the waters' in terms of releasing something and if the numbers ever become out of the ordinary, then additional attention can be paid to it.
Otherwise we'll just keep having this same circular logic of there's no money in the KDF because they don't create enough stuff for the KDF because there's no money in the KDF.
Cryptic doesn't have to intentionally sabotage their own work, they don't have to sit at Dr. No's SPECTRE table and plot in secret how to TRIBBLE KDF players over. Money talks louder than anyone, and it just isn't saying enough to warrant attention.
Regardless of kettle logic, reality remains the way it is. We're all entitled to our opinions, but we're not entitled to our own facts.
Regardless of kettle logic, reality remains the way it is. We're all entitled to our opinions, but we're not entitled to our own facts.
Now, please, accept that, move along and let other people have their opinions.
Sure, you provide facts and the other side provides facts, but it's the interpretation of said where you will never find a common ground, as long as you keep repeating moves and utterances.
This whole thread is mainly people lamenting the current reality and you saying "well, but this is the way it is, you have no right to feel that way, because you and yours do not buy things". Cueing repetition of the well-known vicious circle-argument.
By now, I suspect you've pretty much made your point, seeing as you posited KDF players as ungrateful and stingy whiners on welfare benefits from the Federation players about 12 times in the course of this thread. That story's old and been old before you rehashed it. I'm going to assume you haven't seen these debates before, lest I start suspecting you of trolling or trying to start a flame war.
The fact of the matter is f2p makes more money than subscription-based models. Even today, you'll find that subscription-only models are all but extinct, and the ones that aren't are quickly going out the door. That's not a Cryptic/STO thing, that's a gaming industry trend. The MMO market is oversaturated and every MMO is trying to compete against each other for a bigger slice of the pie -- that pie being player numbers and subsequently money spent on microtransactions, with lesser emphasis on subscriptions. STO going f2p was the only choice there was to make. It was only a matter of time and the only people who don't believe that are the ones who don't pay attention to market trends.
I want to throw a little support behind this reasoning. Few people I have met can drop
$50+ plus a subscription just to see if the box art actually shows what is in a game. I would not touch STO or SWTOR without f2p. Because there are too many aweful titles and too many half baked attempts to cash in on a recognizable brand. How many bad Star Trek games have you played? Mine go back to DOS games that use 0= to show a ship.
The subscription format goes to past tense these days so that players can choose. Setting up better effects for subscribers then adding in micro-transactions is how the industry works now. Be happy, a number of other f2p games make it so you can only go to level 30 and visit a few zones. Only subscribers get the full game before micro transactions.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
beyond that point is the following: If you make a product for a target audience, it's usually a good idea to make it for that audience. The Bort's a prime example of NOT making a product for the audience it was marketed for.
All you have to do, is pay attention. The Bort was a gimped version of the Oddy, with worse handling being marketed to a faction whose FREE cruisers were and are known for having GOOD handling (for the size class).
IOW they didn't make money on it, because they built it intentionally to suck.
"Features":
Turn rate: 5.5 (Vo'quv territory)
Mount DHC's (but WHY? You can't get guns on target!)
Inertia (OMG it's like a city bus with bad brakes!!)
Cloaking issues (detectable from further out-the Cloak doesn't work as well as MES1)
weaker shields than fed counterpart
weaker hull, too.
And then you get into the uni consoles it came with on the 3 pack...
BoP console-generate an easily destroyed, ineffective pet that takes a long time to respawn.
Subspace Snare: I can do this with "Tractor Beam" and the cooldown is shorter even without Duty officers.
Big-TRIBBLE nose cannon: Turn Rate anyone?
There are people who can do builds on this turkey that work-but for the same level of effort you die less running a Negh'var, Vor'cha, even a K'Tinga, and you kill more with those too.
"But what about the awe-inspiring dps??" someone always asks.
Doing actual damage largely involves being able to bring guns to bear. The Bort has problems doing this even in PVE play-and that was before the EPtE changes that have spheres zooming all over the map. "Potential" DPS means nothing, it's your ability to lay steel on target that matters in most of the content KDF has, or KDF players play.
and it doesn't have the nostalgia tie-in that the worst ship in the Fed inventory (Galaxy-X) has to prop it up on the sales floor.
Agreed. The Bortas'qu was pretty much a boondoggle, and I am not surprised it didn't sell as well as Cryptic would apparently like. The only people who'd waste their money on that ship are either people with a LOT of money to waste and a desire to collect ships, or people who like to fly giant space bricks for whatever reason. Even back then, I think the demand was for more raptors/destroyers, science ships, and possibly better BoPs. It's been stated many times by folks on these forums, and folks I've talked with in-game generally agree. We have enough battlecruisers, the Fleet system handled that nicely. Now we need 2-3 science ships to add some variety in there, we need better raptors and more destroyers, and the BoP needs a big buff somewhere to keep up with the irresponsible power creep Cryptic has been engaging in.
If you're gonna tell people they are wrong... at least read the whole thread so you can tell them off right....
You and others, sure.... not the PetaQ on the first page.... Other than the OP and a few smaller posts the C-store isn't even mentioned... JUST the Bortasqu AND the fact that it was "given" on the second anniversary... Another special event....
So are Some of you arguing over C-Store ships? Yes
Are some of you not? Yes...
My post(admittedly a tired one cause i didn't even see the amount of pages o.O) was directed at the latter....
As for reading... Yes, after having some sleep and reading more than the first page and bit of the second, This thread is still full of deep, thoughtful speakers(like you) and brainless raging Targs(who just wanna squeal "Give me TRIBBLE" at something)
Those that want to keep squealing about not getting anything since the second anniversary.... Should be challenged in honorable combat... and mercilessly gutted like the fatted Targs they are and their stuffed heads used as a bulkhead trophy.
We don't want what the Feds have. We want the equivalent. We want fairer treatment. Concern, desire, greed to some extent, and passionate belief that the enough people would buy KDF items to make it worth Cryptic's while.
We don't want what the Feds have. We want the equivalent. We want fairer treatment. Concern, desire, greed to some extent, and passionate belief that the enough people would buy KDF items to make it worth Cryptic's while.
Those that want to keep squealing about not getting anything since the second anniversary.... Should be challenged in honorable combat... and mercilessly gutted like the fatted Targs they are and their stuffed heads used as a bulkhead trophy.
Here I have to agree. Those who honestly do not think the KDF got anything since the free Bortas'qu (and corresponding 3-pack) are incorrect/mislead (or possibly don't count the Kamarag).
Those arguing that the C-store is light on pickings for the KDF are, essentially, correct.
The cycle of nothing to buy-> no money spent-> no investment in new ships-> nothing to buy can be broken in 1 of 2 ways.
1 - Buy every KDF item in C-store we can (even if it eats the clumps from a targs' fur) so there is money in the pot for future investment. This is basically saying "Until we buy TRIBBLE, Cryptic won't give us decent".
2 - Cryptic put out a stunning ship, bunch of costumes or some other thing the KDF have been begging for since year 0 so we, the players, have something decent to buy.
Now, I can't speak for anyone but myself... I won't buy TRIBBLE. I will wait and buy good stuff and will continue waiting and saving (and grinding) until it comes along (K'Vort springs to mind). As I am intractable, the ball is in Cryptic's court. Pushing a Negh'Var (another battlecruiser?) back until "probably 2014" is not Cryptic breaking the cycle... not yet. Cryptic fixing KDF Marauder boffs so their uniform works and maybe making 1 (just 1, not asking for the world here) new KDF costume would go a long way to changing things.
"...we are far more united and have far more in common with each other than the things that divide us.”
Jo Cox 22.6.1974 - 16.6.2016
Now, I can't speak for anyone but myself... I won't buy TRIBBLE. I will wait and buy good stuff and will continue waiting and saving (and grinding) until it comes along (K'Vort springs to mind). As I am intractable, the ball is in Cryptic's court. Pushing a Negh'Var (another battlecruiser?) back until "probably 2014" is not Cryptic breaking the cycle... not yet. Cryptic fixing KDF Marauder boffs so their uniform works and maybe making 1 (just 1, not asking for the world here) new KDF costume would go a long way to changing things.
I was hoping that's what was going to be released for the 3rd year anniversary... I would have paid 20 bucks for a Fleet Kvort....
As it stands.... I hardly play my KDF character, not because i don't want to.... but simply because the one ship... the ONE SHIP I wanted is now this massive useless under-performing hulk... That's right Marauder.... I'm looking at you... With your now useless hanger bay(Still broken carrier commands) and Advanced Orion Slavers(to which I STILL haven't had them loot anything from even after running a few STFs on the now "doubled" looting chance)
I was all over my KDF when they gave the Marauder to us.... Then I found out, first hand... just how broken they made carriers and even half carriers and i didn't want to play anymore...
THAT is the complete negligence and(by US legal standards if the KDF were a child) abuse of the KDF by Cryptic...
We don't want what the Feds have. We want the equivalent. We want fairer treatment. Concern, desire, greed to some extent, and passionate belief that the enough people would buy KDF items to make it worth Cryptic's while.
Comments
When you think about it, the KDF have a lot working against 'em here. The Federation have, due to the way things have been handled, a considerable 'advantage' in numbers, which leads to a reduction of doff costs because of a larger supply. Then there's the fact that the Federation now have carriers of their own that can more or less hold their own against the KDF selection, removing that gameplay incentive to play KDF. Now with LoR, people can roll a Fed-Rom and have a Federation-aligned battlecloaking ship that isn't nerfed to hell like the KDF BoP is, so the KDF no longer has the 'advantage' of cloaks because it's all regular cloaks. Lastly, Federation now has relatively cheap access to almost every good console the KDF had (most recent being the plasmonic leech), so they don't even need to roll a KDF to have access to these formerly-exclusive consoles.
About the only 'advantage' KDF has now is the contraband given out by marauding missions, and you can just farm that without caring about what happens to the faction development-wise. Heck, they're even trying to finish off the KDF's battlecruiser advantage (already weakened by the introduction of Romulan battlecloaking battlecruisers) by giving the Feddies this 'Avenger-class' ship. . .we'll have to wait and see how good it is first. Wouldn't be surprised if it's a C-Store carbon-copy of the non-Fleet K't'inga provided by the T1 shipyard, or something.
Meanwhile, the Federation retains good escort, science ship, and even cruiser ship selections (soon to be improved by this new ship, most likely) along with their own compliment of carriers/hybrid carriers. With Romulans in the mix, there's really no functional point in anyone bothering with the KDF. In fact, you're giving up access to a strong science ship line and other inherent advantages the Federation faction has.
*per se
/fixedforya
My idea is that is not just about giving or retaining kdf exclusivities (they're already gone with LoT and battlecruisers as you well say), it just about giving em the first starting point in some other aspects that are attractive to new players in the first place, specially the kind of playerbase that Cryptic tends to lure, non-gamer middle-agers economicaly solvent willing to spend money in its trek fandom. Cryptic didnt even attempt to lure a decent bunch of vanity options in the first place like they've done with romulans following the example of the starfleet faction. So that basically proves that Cryptic has not even tried to take advantage of the inherent rich variety of possibility that KDF has (not just klingons, gorn, orions, nausicaans).
In the very beginning of the game, when STO was supposed to shine as an mmo in gameplay mechanics, kdf were gonna be the hardcore pvp faction. STO has passed through a huge conversion since this initial idea, but kdf is still stucked in that idea, when the other two factions are entirely comitted to the current marketing politic. And then we have the consecuences: if you dont lure players into a faction in the first place, then releasing ships and useful content wont be profitable. Circular problem that can be only solved if Cryptic/PWE someday decides to expand is playerbase (same situation as pvp).
You seem like you have a firmer grip on reality than most. You see it as a circular problem, just as I do. Cryptic doesn't create a lot of things for the KDF because there's no money in creating things for the KDF because they don't create a lot of things for the KDF because there's no money in the KDF because they don't create a lot of things... etc. etc., this is the circular logic that's really just been spinning in place for a while.
It's this circular problem that I hope gets resolved whenever the KDF do get their ship. I hope that sales are impressive enough that they'll want to start devoting more resources to the KDF, because the KDF does deserve more than what it currently has. I hope enough of them are purchased that Cryptic can say, "There's money in the KDF despite our past evaluations, let's start producing more KDF ships."
Yeah ships are indeed a very important thing in space ships game, seems that kdf's arent an important part in this particular space ship game :rolleyes:
As for me, I'd probably play more kdf if I could have a more naked orion costume in the c-store. They're not naked enough! Then I tell you sci ships would fall as rain...
Or stuff like this and new badass 25th century BoPs would emerge everywere...
Well I think i made my point of the need for more attractiveness and how cryptic could start breaking the circle...
While starfleet and roms adapted to 2013, klinks are still 80's heavy metals from the time of tng in the aesthetic and a vaporware faction in the utility... Releasing a ship -a good one- I'm afraid is not enough at this point, but dreaming of a kdf LoR is as futile as dreaming about a pvp LoR... PWE/Cryptic has lost any ambition and they're grabbing at is current little player base without any sign of change or expansion in the near future... So yeah, some bones throwed from time to time and that'll be all, gentleman
Edit: the credit fot the LoR expansion is still there, although we could not agree with some aspects, Cryptic/PWE for the first time showed their teeth with STO, but they seems to have been exhausted too son, and now then, season 8, more reputation...
I never said anything about them being being legally or morally obligated... I said it was expected by their customers of which they have the right to. The expansion to the KDF was exactly the reason they said it themselves to get the KDF numbers up. Read up on the ask cryptic interviews.
Good to know
Once the ship is made it is done. It's not like making cars or cans of soup where once its sold you have to make another to sell. eventualy it will be 100% profit because it costs them nothing to keep it in the store, the amount that was used in creating is paid back, and they never have to do a thing to maintain it. Plus it can make even more profit by having someone change the stats and add a console slot and call it a refit, and do that again and call it a fleet retrofit. The money is in the artwork and not the stats and consoles.
As for the Avenger it looks like it was an early design of the Regent that was pulled from mothballs and cleaned up a bit, and details added. probably isnt taking much time to finish it. I doubt my Fed engi will be flying it since I have the fleet assault cruiser already.
Oh and My 2 KDF officers wouldnt mind something new being offered. A nice KDF flight deck assault cruiser, 4 fore and aft weapons, same Boff and console as the regent, +1 hangar bay and a fleet variant with same setup as the fleet assault cruiser fed side. That would be my first choice of ships to buy for my KDF engi. As for cannon cruisers KDf has plenty of those. Bops? plenty but could use some updated console/boff layout ones.
"I'm drunk, whats your excuse for being an idiot?" - Unknown drunk man. :eek:
Commerce doesn't work that way. You don't go to the bank and say, "I didn't make enough money to cover the mortgage this month, but in 3 to 6 months I might depending on how good business is."
They would be in the right for saying you defaulted on your mortgage payment.
Likewise for employees at Cryptic, or Cryptic's bandwidth bills, or any of the other multitude of areas in regards to upkeep of Cryptic Studios and the game itself. You don't say, "Here are some I.O.U.'s for payroll, we're good for it. Just wait 3 to 6 months for said KDF ship to make enough to cover the costs it took producing it."
Besides that, to say there is no more upkeep on ships once it hits the c-store is misleading at best, and a big fat lie at worst. Ships in the C-store get altered, reworked, nerfed, buffed, given artistic attention, etc. all the time. All of which requires paid employees to devote labor hours to far beyond the date they hit the cash shop.
If you're gonna be pissed off... be pissed off right....
Whilst some might call this "moving the goalposts" the actual argument is intended to be that the last C-Store ship was the Bortasa'qu. A free T5 ship does not earn Cryptic money to invest in future KDF development. Personally I loved the Kamarag and if the T5 version of the Ambassador and Kamarag had been C-store only I'd have bought it. It was free so we all lucked out (if you ran the mission in time).
I am, and others are, arguing that we cannot buy a new C-store ship to prove the KDF fans will buy a new C-store ship if Cryptic don't make the ship to sell to us in the first place. Yet others are suggesting Cryptic won't make a KDF C-store ship because we KDF fans don't buy enough stuff from the limited KDF C-store range to justify making the ship in the first place. Do you see the irony? Iconians does.
If you're gonna tell people they are wrong... at least read the whole thread so you can tell them off right....
Jo Cox 22.6.1974 - 16.6.2016
Because that's how businesses operate. They purposefully sabotage their own efforts and devote thousands of dollars and countless labor hours to create something people won't buy. That's how businesses remain in business, by creating stuff that people won't buy.
You clearly know what you're talking about.
So Cryptic nearly closed its doors because it wasn't acting like a business.
And not because Atari was going bankrupt and they had to sell the only asset they had that was making any money because all of their other assets were near-worthless, and because Atari had no idea how MMOs worked.
k.
By doing this.
Nothing of which was directly related to Cryptic Studios' performance. The fact Cryptic Studios was one of the first things to go was because it was an asset that was actually making money.
Seriously its going to look good on paper and thats about it.
Maybe they should just start taking ships and re-skinning them for KDF use.......
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The North American video game crash of 1983 had a multitude of reasons and causes involved. For Atari, and this was a fatal mistake that to this day continues to remind the video game industry everywhere as a warning... was the Atari 2600's failure, in particular the E.T. game which was a disaster, and the 'port' of Pac-Man that was extremely rushed. Throw on the lawsuits that Atari was constantly embroiled in, the money spent on trying to lobby Washington D.C. into minting a smaller $1 coin that could fit into their arcades, and an oversaturation of videogames during the christmas season based on faulty marketing intel, and you have the resulting game crash of 1983. The Atari Jaguar, while also a commercial failure, was not the most prolific of Atari's blunders, and this was in 1993-1994.
As far as Cryptic goes, I'd say that City of Heroes and City of Villains more or less proved they have what it takes to start a fire. The game was cancelled only recently, but launched in 2004, a few months before WoW launched.
Now you're entering the realm of f2p vs. subscription-based models. You're trying to infer that correlation = causation in regards to f2p and STO. The fact of the matter is f2p makes more money than subscription-based models. Even today, you'll find that subscription-only models are all but extinct, and the ones that aren't are quickly going out the door. That's not a Cryptic/STO thing, that's a gaming industry trend. The MMO market is oversaturated and every MMO is trying to compete against each other for a bigger slice of the pie -- that pie being player numbers and subsequently money spent on microtransactions, with lesser emphasis on subscriptions. STO going f2p was the only choice there was to make. It was only a matter of time and the only people who don't believe that are the ones who don't pay attention to market trends.
As far as PvE and PvP goes... STO is a casual game. It was always supposed to be a casual game. Cryptic has never done PvP well. Not in CoH/CoV, not in Champions Online. PvP is just not something Cryptic can do well.
When it comes to the Bortasqu'... honestly? The game is easy. I've said this multiple times and it never stops being true. The Bortasqu' is only as obsolete/TRIBBLE as someone wants it to be. I've seen good Bortasqu' players perform very well in the ship. When Cryptic routinely nerfs PvE content because of players saying it's too hard, I tend to discount any arguement that Cryptic goes out of its way to hurt ship design.
Describe the market you're going for in regards to the Bortasqu'? The market would largely consist of players who simply enjoy playing the KDF. When PvP in the game is invariably broken, and when PvE is watered down enough to be considered unchallenging by veteran players -- then the target demographic consists of KDF fans who want a nice big ship with nifty toys on it.
It doesn't have to be complicated. Because the game itself is not complicated.
Just as what I've been saying isn't complicated. One faction makes money. One faction is subsidized by the faction that makes money. They can keep throwing the KDF a bone every once in a while and continue to 'test the waters' in terms of releasing something and if the numbers ever become out of the ordinary, then additional attention can be paid to it.
Otherwise we'll just keep having this same circular logic of there's no money in the KDF because they don't create enough stuff for the KDF because there's no money in the KDF.
Cryptic doesn't have to intentionally sabotage their own work, they don't have to sit at Dr. No's SPECTRE table and plot in secret how to TRIBBLE KDF players over. Money talks louder than anyone, and it just isn't saying enough to warrant attention.
Regardless of kettle logic, reality remains the way it is. We're all entitled to our opinions, but we're not entitled to our own facts.
Now, please, accept that, move along and let other people have their opinions.
Sure, you provide facts and the other side provides facts, but it's the interpretation of said where you will never find a common ground, as long as you keep repeating moves and utterances.
This whole thread is mainly people lamenting the current reality and you saying "well, but this is the way it is, you have no right to feel that way, because you and yours do not buy things". Cueing repetition of the well-known vicious circle-argument.
By now, I suspect you've pretty much made your point, seeing as you posited KDF players as ungrateful and stingy whiners on welfare benefits from the Federation players about 12 times in the course of this thread. That story's old and been old before you rehashed it. I'm going to assume you haven't seen these debates before, lest I start suspecting you of trolling or trying to start a flame war.
I want to throw a little support behind this reasoning. Few people I have met can drop
$50+ plus a subscription just to see if the box art actually shows what is in a game. I would not touch STO or SWTOR without f2p. Because there are too many aweful titles and too many half baked attempts to cash in on a recognizable brand. How many bad Star Trek games have you played? Mine go back to DOS games that use 0= to show a ship.
The subscription format goes to past tense these days so that players can choose. Setting up better effects for subscribers then adding in micro-transactions is how the industry works now. Be happy, a number of other f2p games make it so you can only go to level 30 and visit a few zones. Only subscribers get the full game before micro transactions.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Agreed. The Bortas'qu was pretty much a boondoggle, and I am not surprised it didn't sell as well as Cryptic would apparently like. The only people who'd waste their money on that ship are either people with a LOT of money to waste and a desire to collect ships, or people who like to fly giant space bricks for whatever reason. Even back then, I think the demand was for more raptors/destroyers, science ships, and possibly better BoPs. It's been stated many times by folks on these forums, and folks I've talked with in-game generally agree. We have enough battlecruisers, the Fleet system handled that nicely. Now we need 2-3 science ships to add some variety in there, we need better raptors and more destroyers, and the BoP needs a big buff somewhere to keep up with the irresponsible power creep Cryptic has been engaging in.
You and others, sure.... not the PetaQ on the first page.... Other than the OP and a few smaller posts the C-store isn't even mentioned... JUST the Bortasqu AND the fact that it was "given" on the second anniversary... Another special event....
So are Some of you arguing over C-Store ships? Yes
Are some of you not? Yes...
My post(admittedly a tired one cause i didn't even see the amount of pages o.O) was directed at the latter....
As for reading... Yes, after having some sleep and reading more than the first page and bit of the second, This thread is still full of deep, thoughtful speakers(like you) and brainless raging Targs(who just wanna squeal "Give me TRIBBLE" at something)
Those that want to keep squealing about not getting anything since the second anniversary.... Should be challenged in honorable combat... and mercilessly gutted like the fatted Targs they are and their stuffed heads used as a bulkhead trophy.
For the PERMANENT record... Nintendo is owned by, get this, Nintendo!
Here I have to agree. Those who honestly do not think the KDF got anything since the free Bortas'qu (and corresponding 3-pack) are incorrect/mislead (or possibly don't count the Kamarag).
Those arguing that the C-store is light on pickings for the KDF are, essentially, correct.
The cycle of nothing to buy-> no money spent-> no investment in new ships-> nothing to buy can be broken in 1 of 2 ways.
1 - Buy every KDF item in C-store we can (even if it eats the clumps from a targs' fur) so there is money in the pot for future investment. This is basically saying "Until we buy TRIBBLE, Cryptic won't give us decent".
2 - Cryptic put out a stunning ship, bunch of costumes or some other thing the KDF have been begging for since year 0 so we, the players, have something decent to buy.
Now, I can't speak for anyone but myself... I won't buy TRIBBLE. I will wait and buy good stuff and will continue waiting and saving (and grinding) until it comes along (K'Vort springs to mind). As I am intractable, the ball is in Cryptic's court. Pushing a Negh'Var (another battlecruiser?) back until "probably 2014" is not Cryptic breaking the cycle... not yet. Cryptic fixing KDF Marauder boffs so their uniform works and maybe making 1 (just 1, not asking for the world here) new KDF costume would go a long way to changing things.
Jo Cox 22.6.1974 - 16.6.2016
I was hoping that's what was going to be released for the 3rd year anniversary... I would have paid 20 bucks for a Fleet Kvort....
As it stands.... I hardly play my KDF character, not because i don't want to.... but simply because the one ship... the ONE SHIP I wanted is now this massive useless under-performing hulk... That's right Marauder.... I'm looking at you... With your now useless hanger bay(Still broken carrier commands) and Advanced Orion Slavers(to which I STILL haven't had them loot anything from even after running a few STFs on the now "doubled" looting chance)
I was all over my KDF when they gave the Marauder to us.... Then I found out, first hand... just how broken they made carriers and even half carriers and i didn't want to play anymore...
THAT is the complete negligence and(by US legal standards if the KDF were a child) abuse of the KDF by Cryptic...