rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,521Community Moderator
Can people stop complaining about the reboot movies and focus on the subject? Pointing the Krenim Weapon at JJ Abrams would solve nothing. He was just the director. He didn't write the story. He didn't have total control of every single tiny aspect of making the movie like some people make it out to be. Its an alternate reality that exists in parallel to the prime universe.
Now... as to the episode Contagion... that is an interesting thing... Its possible that the Iconians were moving back then. However... it is also possible that Hobus may not have happened if the events of Yesterday's Enterprise didn't happen, as Tasha had died before that, but was brought back from an alternate timeline caused by the Enterprise-C coming through time and meeting the Enterprise-D. Without that, there would be no Sela. So... possible predestination paradox event?
Giving the Iconians the world heart on Dewa III in the past might not have kept them from going down the path of outright insane vengeance. It might have given them an larger powerbase to subjugate the milky way much earlier than 2410. The reason why giving them the world heart now was the best choice is because it was a bargaining chip and corroborating evidence that we were the ones who helped them evacuate. L'Miren might not have recognized us if we didn't present her the world heart in this century.
Giving the Iconians the world heart on Dewa III in the past might not have kept them from going down the path of outright insane vengeance. It might have given them an larger powerbase to subjugate the milky way much earlier than 2410. The reason why giving them the world heart now was the best choice is because it was a bargaining chip and corroborating evidence that we were the ones who helped them evacuate. L'Miren might not have recognized us if we didn't present her the world heart in this century.
Could be, we didn't have the world heart then and it would have been too fresh in the Iconian memories to remember us. They needed 200,000 years to rekindle their memory.....oh wait.
Giving the Iconians the world heart on Dewa III in the past might not have kept them from going down the path of outright insane vengeance. It might have given them an larger powerbase to subjugate the milky way much earlier than 2410. The reason why giving them the world heart now was the best choice is because it was a bargaining chip and corroborating evidence that we were the ones who helped them evacuate. L'Miren might not have recognized us if we didn't present her the world heart in this century.
We saw what 200,000 years of "no World Heart, no future, no 'whole'" did to them. We also can "speculate" that, outside of maybe T'Ket going off on Sela (Extradited to Iconian care for crimes against them) and a touch of "putting the lesser races that tried smacking Iconia down", it's equally likely they "return to their semi-benevolent holier-than-thou custodians of the Galaxy", get smacked down by the Preservers for "failing", evolve into a force that gives Q the finger, became the Organians / Metrons / Trelane / pick'em, moved off to Andromeda anyway, etc. etc.
Temporal Instigations had tossed their Temporal Directives out the window when they gave us clearance to go in and radically alter the timeline via "assassination/genocide of the Iconians before they got their power". So what if I went and "helped" keep the Iconians presumably semi-benevolent and prevented a few dozen wars instead of lord knows what by nuking them into oblivion?
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
The way T'Ket was she would probably have destroyed it in secret and blamed it on the "lesser races".
Scarily enough, this actually has the ring of plausibility to me. The invasion seriously elevated her stock with the rest of the survivors because in a way, she could blame everything on their learned passivity (same kind of warped logic as Sela, BTW). An immediate repair in relations would cause her to lose that newly acquired power and influence. While M'Tara appeared to be "queen," I get a strong sense that for the post-invasion Whole, T'Ket was the power behind the throne if not de facto ruler, only just barely held in check by the rest.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Can people stop complaining about the reboot movies and focus on the subject? Pointing the Krenim Weapon at JJ Abrams would solve nothing. He was just the director. He didn't write the story. He didn't have total control of every single tiny aspect of making the movie like some people make it out to be.
Okay, this is getting off topic a bit, but it's also completely inaccurate. A film's director has enormous pull over how the film will ultimately be presented. It's true that there are plenty of cases where a director's vision is overridden by executive fiat, but in the case of J. J. Abrams and Star Trek, he had a lot of latitude to define the film.
The Writers (Orci and Kurtzman) and producers (including Orci, Kurtzman, and Abrams) included a lot of people who've been working together on Abrams projects off and on since the Alias days. Orci was the EP, if you're wondering.
Here's the thing, the 2009 film was Paramount handing Trek off to Abrams and a few of his friends, and the project they turned out is a reflection of that. It's not solely Abrams' fault, but he is a huge part of why the film ended up the way it did. So, technically it's not just Abrams' fault, it's also on the heads of the other producers. But, it was his vision.
Now, the hatred it gets might be overblown. But, at the same time, this was taking a franchise that, honestly, a lot of people on these boards loves, and handing it off to someone who didn't care about Trek, and just wanted to use it to audition for making Star Wars films. So, it should come as no surprise that there are people on these boards are a little touchy on the subject.
I'd say, "I don't hate them," but then I remember I haven't actually watched Into Darkness at all, and can't be bothered to.
Starke, I know you may not care for the JJVerse (I actually enjoyed it even though I am fully aware it has problems), but there is one Into Darkness related thing you won't regret getting: the soundtrack. Seriously, Michael Giacchino did wonders with the film score. It is a real contender for the best film score ANY movie in the franchise has had.
I actually bought the soundtrack a second time when the limited edition with this track came out:
What you get on the standard CD is really darned good, too.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
JJ "trek" was worth watching as a movie... just not as Star Trek. missed the point of star trek.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
Starke, I know you may not care for the JJVerse (I actually enjoyed it even though I am fully aware it has problems), but there is one Into Darkness related thing you won't regret getting: the soundtrack. Seriously, Michael Giacchino did wonders with the film score. It is a real contender for the best film score ANY movie in the franchise has had.
I actually bought the soundtrack a second time when the limited edition with this track came out:
What you get on the standard CD is really darned good, too.
That's the funny thing, I don't actually have any particular animosity towards it, I've even got the first film around here somewhere, I just... don't really care enough to watch the sequel. It's a weird state of apathy.
JJ "trek" was worth watching as a movie... just not as Star Trek. missed the point of star trek.
Yes, because if there's one thing Star Trek has, it's consistent 'point' that remains the same no matter what series or film you're watching, right?
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
To take this debate away from whether or not the last 2 Trek movies are good ones or not, I'm gonna grab back to the Contagion/Sela point. And damn, I'm gonna have to use the last 2 Trek movies as an example here. BUT NO DEBATE. Lets not turn this thread into a derailed flame room shall we?
When the Bluegill invasion, the first Iconian attack on the Federation, happened, we had not yet arrived at the point that the Enterprise-C arrived in the future, hence Tasha could not have gone back yet to be taken POW, make a baby with a Romulan gneral and die. And no Sela, no Iconian hatred, no Bluegill invasion. There are two workarounds possible around this paradox.
I: (the one I favor btw): Looking at the last 2 Trek movies. When Nero blew up Vulcan, he did so because Romulus got destroyed. However, Romulus was still out there at that time. The point here is: what happens in one timeline can already retro-actively influence another timeline. So Yar was already present on the Enterpise-C the first time it got destroyed, before the alternate-timeline-in-which-the-Klingons-were-stomping-everybody's-TRIBBLE saw the Enterprise-C appearing. So Sela was already around at the time of the Bluegill Invasion. She may not have been an important Romulan yet, maybe a Centurion on a warbird doing scientific research somewhere deep in Romulan space or something, but she was around, hence the predestination paradox that would lead Sela to destroy everything was already set in motion.
II: The Bluegill invasion targeted the Federation, which was the strongest power in the Beta Quadrant at that time. The Klingons were.... tamed is too strong a word..... brought to their senses by having a good, honest alliance with the Federation. The Romulans were still hiding away from everybody else and would only emerge after the bluegill invasion, and even then very limited. So their initial attack was not on the Romulans, who they would learn to despise so much, but on the largest coalition of different species, exactly the kind of coalition that had Cylon-sneaked a nuke attack on Iconia 200.000 years ago.
It would only make sense to give them the world heart at the very beginning of the war, as soon as the herald sphere comes back to the alpha quadrant.
To be honest, that makes a lot of sense.
Or even if not that, at least jump back to just before the sphere attack, before the Alliance lost a large percentage of their fleets. Recent enough that it probably wouldn't 'break' anything.
Problem here is that we needed (don't ask me why) the Krenim Timeship for this specific time travel. And we only found the Krenim because of the Iconian War, and only gave them the recourses to build this ship because of the Iconian war. So giving them the World Heart BEFORE the Battle of Sol was enough to break the predestination paradox, and thus breaking everything in existence to the point Q would have to come by to clap his hands and undo all the damage we did.
The way T'Ket was she would probably have destroyed it in secret and blamed it on the "lesser races".
Scarily enough, this actually has the ring of plausibility to me. The invasion seriously elevated her stock with the rest of the survivors because in a way, she could blame everything on their learned passivity (same kind of warped logic as Sela, BTW). An immediate repair in relations would cause her to lose that newly acquired power and influence. While M'Tara appeared to be "queen," I get a strong sense that for the post-invasion Whole, T'Ket was the power behind the throne if not de facto ruler, only just barely held in check by the rest.
To take this debate away from whether or not the last 2 Trek movies are good ones or not, I'm gonna grab back to the Contagion/Sela point. And damn, I'm gonna have to use the last 2 Trek movies as an example here. BUT NO DEBATE. Lets not turn this thread into a derailed flame room shall we?
When the Bluegill invasion, the first Iconian attack on the Federation, happened, we had not yet arrived at the point that the Enterprise-C arrived in the future, hence Tasha could not have gone back yet to be taken POW, make a baby with a Romulan gneral and die. And no Sela, no Iconian hatred, no Bluegill invasion. There are two workarounds possible around this paradox.
I: (the one I favor btw): Looking at the last 2 Trek movies. When Nero blew up Vulcan, he did so because Romulus got destroyed. However, Romulus was still out there at that time. The point here is: what happens in one timeline can already retro-actively influence another timeline. So Yar was already present on the Enterpise-C the first time it got destroyed, before the alternate-timeline-in-which-the-Klingons-were-stomping-everybody's-TRIBBLE saw the Enterprise-C appearing. So Sela was already around at the time of the Bluegill Invasion. She may not have been an important Romulan yet, maybe a Centurion on a warbird doing scientific research somewhere deep in Romulan space or something, but she was around, hence the predestination paradox that would lead Sela to destroy everything was already set in motion.
II: The Bluegill invasion targeted the Federation, which was the strongest power in the Beta Quadrant at that time. The Klingons were.... tamed is too strong a word..... brought to their senses by having a good, honest alliance with the Federation. The Romulans were still hiding away from everybody else and would only emerge after the bluegill invasion, and even then very limited. So their initial attack was not on the Romulans, who they would learn to despise so much, but on the largest coalition of different species, exactly the kind of coalition that had Cylon-sneaked a nuke attack on Iconia 200.000 years ago.
Looking at Option 1:
People from possible futures muck up the timeline in various ways.
From the perspective of Iconia 200k years ago, Sela existed in a possible future and would have been free to influence things regardless of whether she eventually did exist.
Time travelers can just spontaneously appear and mess with the timeline, even if they never eventually come into being.
So Sela would have appeared on Iconia as a traveler from a "possible future" even if she had never come into being later, simply because she COULD have come into being.
Now... My question is what set off the Mirror Iconians since the indications are that the Mirror Universe didn't diverge yet 200k years ago.
And the answer may be us and Sela. Since the Mirror and Prime universe may be the same universe 200k years ago, we (US, not our mirror counterparts) showed up with Sela and Kagran. Sela shot at the Iconians. The Mirrorverse didn't diverge until later so it shares an Iconia from 200k years ago.
It seems to me that really only the predestination paradoxes are even possible to create consistent timelines. The moment you allow someone to actually alter the fate of the universe by time travel, you always eliminate him from the future (if not him directly, at least his reason to time travel).
The only other way to create a "consistent" time line seems to assume that sometimes people can spontanously generate out of nowhere and take actions that allows a person resembling them to either not come into existence or experience something similar to them.
Of course, that would not be time travel, "just" spontanous generation of a fully formed human being.
Oh, and of course the possibility that all time travel does is letting you move to a different universe. In which case trying to alter the future would be just for "fun" or research - your original timeline you come from still unfolds as it always did or will unfold. So no real purpose to travel "back" in time to avert your wife's death, unless you just want to know how some alternate version of you gets to live with her.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
...then when we realized that we were "The Other", why not travel to DEWA III while we were still 200,000 years ago and return it to the Iconian's straight away?
Personally, I believe the war could have been averted, if the player's character had not convinced T'Ket to go with the other Iconians.
Instead of fighting to the death to protect Iconia as was her intention. Since she was the only warlike Iconian of the 12 we saved and the only one, we convinced to "claim vengeance" at a future time. It is likely that the other Iconians would have gone off to the Andromeda galaxy, possibly never to return, without T'Ket's influence to return and seek vengeance on the "lesser races" for the destruction of Iconia. The loss of the World Heart would have nagged at them but they may have tried to reclaim it via other means. Not sure if it was presented in game or the blogs that the Iconians came back purely to reclaim the World Heart vs seeking vengeance for a incident that occured 200k years ago.
Here's a bigger toughie: Sela killed Iconians, because Iconians killed Romulans, because Sela shot escaping Iconians in the back, because Iconians destroyed Romulus to punish Sela for being a TRIBBLE, but how the hell did this loop start? #selashotfirst #iconiansshotfirst
If you want to get a nosebleed...
Go back to any S1 episode of TNG. Ask yourself if Sela exists off in Romulan space during those episodes.
And yet Contagion and the bluegill invasion is the Iconians' first volley, right? Which means Sela had to exist.
no telling who started it and thats why i hate time loops
Here's a bigger toughie: Sela killed Iconians, because Iconians killed Romulans, because Sela shot escaping Iconians in the back, because Iconians destroyed Romulus to punish Sela for being a TRIBBLE, but how the hell did this loop start? #selashotfirst #iconiansshotfirst
If you want to get a nosebleed...
Go back to any S1 episode of TNG. Ask yourself if Sela exists off in Romulan space during those episodes.
And yet Contagion and the bluegill invasion is the Iconians' first volley, right? Which means Sela had to exist.
no telling who started it and thats why i hate time loops
Unless Yesterday's Enterprise is the true future for Star Trek, after the TOS films, and then when Picard sent Yar back with the C they created the version of the universe we saw at the beginning of TNG.
Aside from various models of time travel and story options, consider for a moment the gameplay ramifications of eliminating the Iconian threat from STO. You would loose a lot of gear, xp and ec. Various reputations would be gone or altered heavily. Bear in mind that the Iconians were behind or at least involved in everything that happened in the last 10 seasons. It would basically require a new game, lol.
They had to finish the Iconian story arc in a way that leaves the general game and what already happened unchanged. Not that I´m against brain-bleed inducing mindgames just for the fun of it.
The real question is why does the supposedly female T'Ket have such a deep voice?
It's implied (to my reading of it) that the Iconians are androgynous much like the J'naii, and that "she" is a pronoun of convenience for all of them.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Personally, I believe the war could have been averted, if the player's character had not convinced T'Ket to go with the other Iconians.
Instead of fighting to the death to protect Iconia as was her intention. Since she was the only warlike Iconian of the 12 we saved and the only one, we convinced to "claim vengeance" at a future time. It is likely that the other Iconians would have gone off to the Andromeda galaxy, possibly never to return, without T'Ket's influence to return and seek vengeance on the "lesser races" for the destruction of Iconia.
Perhaps I'm misreading things, but I don't recall "convincing" T'Ket of anything. From my readings of the options as I played a couple of times, the feeling I get is that T'Ket keeps hitting you with, essentially, "Yeah right, tell me another one" until you finally go with "get your vengeance later"...
You know, "kiddie stonewalling till I hear what I want to hear"... Totally appropriate for a highly arrogant advanced race as the Iconians seemed to be back then - reinforced by that little bit in the park... "Really, you think we should listen to your 'Prime Directive' and/or just cave to these aliens? Thank you for your input, but I'll do what I want to do anyway. Cause I'm better than you..."
Then at the end, T'Ket was like "L'Miren, take the gateway before the door closes. Too wounded? Here, let me carry you and swear vengeance on the Romulans..."
The loss of the World Heart would have nagged at them but they may have tried to reclaim it via other means. Not sure if it was presented in game or the blogs that the Iconians came back purely to reclaim the World Heart vs seeking vengeance for a incident that occured 200k years ago.
What little we have presents a bit of a mixed bag as to their intentions. T'Ket was all "venegeance", however, it seemed like she got a good chunk of it when she instigated Hobus, and knowing that the Romulans were hanging around on Dewa III was a godsend to her, bet she was planning on dragging things out before "dual striking" at the ancient refuge and finishing off the Romulan people...
M'Tara and the rest of them (especially L'Miren), as communicated during the Krenim-planet's time-shunt viewing of their conversation, saw the "war" over the Milky Way more as a way to shut T'Ket up (here you go sister, go curb-stomp this pathetic galaxy since they're bugging us a bit too much) while finally getting around to "finding The Other", because if you remember that convo (and the subsequent blog), everything was "The Other and mah Unity", even going so far as casually dismissing our disappearance - "Pet Herald, what news do you bring? What, that group of lesser people just disappeared and there's absolutely no trace of them? Oh well, why don't you head over to peaceful world X and bring us their civilians to be converted into fodder / experimented on / grilled about "The Other" so you get your morale back up. Now leave us alone", while L'Miren practically told T'Ket to STFU and slow down so they could find their precious Other.
Hindsight tells us that the Iconians knew, 100%, that "The Other" also had their World Heart, so find one, you find the rest - and the Unity is restored...
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
Personally, I believe the war could have been averted, if the player's character had not convinced T'Ket to go with the other Iconians.
Instead of fighting to the death to protect Iconia as was her intention. Since she was the only warlike Iconian of the 12 we saved and the only one, we convinced to "claim vengeance" at a future time. It is likely that the other Iconians would have gone off to the Andromeda galaxy, possibly never to return, without T'Ket's influence to return and seek vengeance on the "lesser races" for the destruction of Iconia.
Perhaps I'm misreading things, but I don't recall "convincing" T'Ket of anything. From my readings of the options as I played a couple of times, the feeling I get is that T'Ket keeps hitting you with, essentially, "Yeah right, tell me another one" until you finally go with "get your vengeance later"...
You know, "kiddie stonewalling till I hear what I want to hear"... Totally appropriate for a highly arrogant advanced race as the Iconians seemed to be back then - reinforced by that little bit in the park... "Really, you think we should listen to your 'Prime Directive' and/or just cave to these aliens? Thank you for your input, but I'll do what I want to do anyway. Cause I'm better than you..."
Then at the end, T'Ket was like "L'Miren, take the gateway before the door closes. Too wounded? Here, let me carry you and swear vengeance on the Romulans..."
Player interaction dialog with T'Ket to get here to leave Iconia after retreiving the World Heart with L'Miren. It seems pretty clear see intends to stay on Iconia "I cannot come with you. I will defend Iconia until my final breath."
wrote:
L'Miren: Mainframe memory erased. The last step is to eject the World Heart.
L'Miren: I fear that was just the beginning of the violence. My people are few and most of our Heralds are elsewhere. Defeating a signifcant force would be costly to both sides.
I know you are not one of the Whole, and I have no right to ask for your assistance. But would you help us evacuate the city?
L'Miren: Blessings of the Whole upon you.
We must gather as many of our people as possible and escort them to the gateway platform. Once we are there, I will open the path to to our refuge.
Many of our people already left for colony worlds, but we have lost contact with them. I fear the worst.
L'Miren: I recommend we locate T'Ket. She is our Protector, and there are none who know the ways of our enemy as well as she.
L'Miren: T'Ket is a fearsome warrior, and has kept our people safe for countless millenia. Until today.
Sela: Rescuing Iconians is not what we're here to do.
Kagan: Perhaps it is. When we came back in time, we did not know what we would find.
BEGINNINNG OF DIALOGUE
T'Ket: I appreciate your efforts, stranger, but I cannot come with you. I will defend Iconia until my final breath.
PLAYER: Your people are dying, T'Ket they need you
T'Ket: My people are weak. They have neglected the ways of battle in favor of science and art. They are philosophers. I do not wish for them to die, but ... they could have chosen the path of strength. I will die to defend them. I do not know if I can save them.
PLAYER: Your people are stronger than you give them credit for.
T'Ket: I appreciate your efforts, stranger, but I cannot come with you. I will defend Iconia until my final breath.
PLAYER: There is no honor in throwing your life away.
T'Ket: Honor? Why should I care about honor when Iconian blood is being spilled on sacred ground? What honor have our enemies shown? They attack a peaceful world! Honor is meaningless.
PLAYER: She who has lost honor can lose nothing more.
T'Ket: I appreciate your efforts, stranger, but I cannot come with you. I will defend Iconia until my final breath.
PLAYER: Set aside your foolish pride and help your people.
T'Ket: You think it is pride that keeps me here? It is not for pride that I fight, but for dignity. I fight for my people.
PLAYER: You have earned the respect of all who matter. Now will you come with us.
T'Ket: I appreciate your efforts, stranger, but I cannot come with you. I will defend Iconia until my final breath.
PLAYER [only answer to advance story]: If you die here,who will claim vengeance for the fallen?
T'Ket: Your words have merit. If we go to the refuge, we can rebuild. There we can plan our vengeance.
No one will ever threaten us again.
PLAYER: Think about your people, T'Ket. Not your revenge.
Kagan: She is a fool. She would let her people die so she could avenge them.
The dialogue with T'ket makes no sense. Knowing that T'ket is the warrior and most likely the one in charge of the war I would not have mentioned getting vengeance. A better choice would've been "Then stay here and fight, but atleast help me get your people off this planet." Then the exploding console could knocked her in the portal. But hey fueling the fire of an impending war was a better option.
Kinda surprised no one mentioned or I missed in speed reading the thread but what about the Delta Recruits? The whole premise was to give us an advanced warning and gather up all the data they could, but when the best source of data was right in front of them no one ask?
We (well deltas at least) knew the war was coming and at the end of the Breen missions no bothered to get Iconian data from the Preservers? It wasn't until it was too late that anyone bothered to ask?
We have to be the stupidest sentient beings to send someone back in time to warn us but then forget to ask the only ones who coulda helped when we where not only standing right where we needed to ask but left to and then returned from the past and where having a conversation about the impending war.
Plus, no one can tell me that with all this information about the impending threat to the galaxy that Franklin Drake didn't ask the Preservers and have a plan WAY better (well relatively) than using temporal incursions.
We actually did return it to Dewa III right before we left. That, of course, changed the time line completely so that the Evil Bunny King took over the known galaxy and was adopted by Q who thought it was funny that a little rabbit destroyed everything. We were only lucky that with a four month campaign, involving lots of dilithium and $90 C-Store ships (they were that price in the alternative time line), we were able to defeat the Evil Bunny King, steal his GammaHyperQuadra Device and escape into the Timeline Galaxy where we were able to fight Q's ex-wife and blind grandmother (long story) to get into the alternative time line time ship that brought us back to Midnight again, where we took the World Heart from Dewa VII (with the World Heart, they just didn't like Dewa III any more) and escape back to our own time line. Unfortunately, our mission did change the time line in one way and Star Trek Online became free to play whereas before all ships were free and every time you hit 50th level you were given 1 billion dilithium. That's the sacrifice we had to pay.
Fleet Admiral Duane Gundrum, U.S.S. Merrimack
Fleet Admiral Ventaxa Proxmire, U.S.S. Shaka Walls Fell
Blog: http://www.sarbonn.com/?page_id=1990
Foundry series: Bob From Accounting & For the Sake of the Empire
Comments
Now... as to the episode Contagion... that is an interesting thing... Its possible that the Iconians were moving back then. However... it is also possible that Hobus may not have happened if the events of Yesterday's Enterprise didn't happen, as Tasha had died before that, but was brought back from an alternate timeline caused by the Enterprise-C coming through time and meeting the Enterprise-D. Without that, there would be no Sela. So... possible predestination paradox event?
^ This. Very much this.
Officially Nerfed In Early 2410
We saw what 200,000 years of "no World Heart, no future, no 'whole'" did to them. We also can "speculate" that, outside of maybe T'Ket going off on Sela (Extradited to Iconian care for crimes against them) and a touch of "putting the lesser races that tried smacking Iconia down", it's equally likely they "return to their semi-benevolent holier-than-thou custodians of the Galaxy", get smacked down by the Preservers for "failing", evolve into a force that gives Q the finger, became the Organians / Metrons / Trelane / pick'em, moved off to Andromeda anyway, etc. etc.
Temporal Instigations had tossed their Temporal Directives out the window when they gave us clearance to go in and radically alter the timeline via "assassination/genocide of the Iconians before they got their power". So what if I went and "helped" keep the Iconians presumably semi-benevolent and prevented a few dozen wars instead of lord knows what by nuking them into oblivion?
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
I bet a few billion Romulans would vote that it was necessary, if the dead could vote!
Scarily enough, this actually has the ring of plausibility to me. The invasion seriously elevated her stock with the rest of the survivors because in a way, she could blame everything on their learned passivity (same kind of warped logic as Sela, BTW). An immediate repair in relations would cause her to lose that newly acquired power and influence. While M'Tara appeared to be "queen," I get a strong sense that for the post-invasion Whole, T'Ket was the power behind the throne if not de facto ruler, only just barely held in check by the rest.
I actually finished this story tonight, which involves a final visit to the Other, who isn't exactly letting the Iconians off easy: http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/comment/12736317/#Comment_12736317
(If commenting, comments go here, NOT in the story thread: http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1204729/unofficial-literary-challenge-16-discussion-thread/p1 )
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Okay, this is getting off topic a bit, but it's also completely inaccurate. A film's director has enormous pull over how the film will ultimately be presented. It's true that there are plenty of cases where a director's vision is overridden by executive fiat, but in the case of J. J. Abrams and Star Trek, he had a lot of latitude to define the film.
The Writers (Orci and Kurtzman) and producers (including Orci, Kurtzman, and Abrams) included a lot of people who've been working together on Abrams projects off and on since the Alias days. Orci was the EP, if you're wondering.
Here's the thing, the 2009 film was Paramount handing Trek off to Abrams and a few of his friends, and the project they turned out is a reflection of that. It's not solely Abrams' fault, but he is a huge part of why the film ended up the way it did. So, technically it's not just Abrams' fault, it's also on the heads of the other producers. But, it was his vision.
Now, the hatred it gets might be overblown. But, at the same time, this was taking a franchise that, honestly, a lot of people on these boards loves, and handing it off to someone who didn't care about Trek, and just wanted to use it to audition for making Star Wars films. So, it should come as no surprise that there are people on these boards are a little touchy on the subject.
I'd say, "I don't hate them," but then I remember I haven't actually watched Into Darkness at all, and can't be bothered to.
"Hello sir, we're conducting a research survey. Would you like your entire planet to be atomized?"
"Er, what? How did you get in here!?"
"I'll mark that as a 'yes.' Thank you for your time."
I actually bought the soundtrack a second time when the limited edition with this track came out:
What you get on the standard CD is really darned good, too.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
That's the funny thing, I don't actually have any particular animosity towards it, I've even got the first film around here somewhere, I just... don't really care enough to watch the sequel. It's a weird state of apathy.
Yes, because if there's one thing Star Trek has, it's consistent 'point' that remains the same no matter what series or film you're watching, right?
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
When the Bluegill invasion, the first Iconian attack on the Federation, happened, we had not yet arrived at the point that the Enterprise-C arrived in the future, hence Tasha could not have gone back yet to be taken POW, make a baby with a Romulan gneral and die. And no Sela, no Iconian hatred, no Bluegill invasion. There are two workarounds possible around this paradox.
I: (the one I favor btw): Looking at the last 2 Trek movies. When Nero blew up Vulcan, he did so because Romulus got destroyed. However, Romulus was still out there at that time. The point here is: what happens in one timeline can already retro-actively influence another timeline. So Yar was already present on the Enterpise-C the first time it got destroyed, before the alternate-timeline-in-which-the-Klingons-were-stomping-everybody's-TRIBBLE saw the Enterprise-C appearing. So Sela was already around at the time of the Bluegill Invasion. She may not have been an important Romulan yet, maybe a Centurion on a warbird doing scientific research somewhere deep in Romulan space or something, but she was around, hence the predestination paradox that would lead Sela to destroy everything was already set in motion.
II: The Bluegill invasion targeted the Federation, which was the strongest power in the Beta Quadrant at that time. The Klingons were.... tamed is too strong a word..... brought to their senses by having a good, honest alliance with the Federation. The Romulans were still hiding away from everybody else and would only emerge after the bluegill invasion, and even then very limited. So their initial attack was not on the Romulans, who they would learn to despise so much, but on the largest coalition of different species, exactly the kind of coalition that had Cylon-sneaked a nuke attack on Iconia 200.000 years ago.
Join the Deltas today!
Problem here is that we needed (don't ask me why) the Krenim Timeship for this specific time travel. And we only found the Krenim because of the Iconian War, and only gave them the recourses to build this ship because of the Iconian war. So giving them the World Heart BEFORE the Battle of Sol was enough to break the predestination paradox, and thus breaking everything in existence to the point Q would have to come by to clap his hands and undo all the damage we did.
Join the Deltas today!
Looking at Option 1:
People from possible futures muck up the timeline in various ways.
From the perspective of Iconia 200k years ago, Sela existed in a possible future and would have been free to influence things regardless of whether she eventually did exist.
Time travelers can just spontaneously appear and mess with the timeline, even if they never eventually come into being.
So Sela would have appeared on Iconia as a traveler from a "possible future" even if she had never come into being later, simply because she COULD have come into being.
Now... My question is what set off the Mirror Iconians since the indications are that the Mirror Universe didn't diverge yet 200k years ago.
And the answer may be us and Sela. Since the Mirror and Prime universe may be the same universe 200k years ago, we (US, not our mirror counterparts) showed up with Sela and Kagran. Sela shot at the Iconians. The Mirrorverse didn't diverge until later so it shares an Iconia from 200k years ago.
The only other way to create a "consistent" time line seems to assume that sometimes people can spontanously generate out of nowhere and take actions that allows a person resembling them to either not come into existence or experience something similar to them.
Of course, that would not be time travel, "just" spontanous generation of a fully formed human being.
Oh, and of course the possibility that all time travel does is letting you move to a different universe. In which case trying to alter the future would be just for "fun" or research - your original timeline you come from still unfolds as it always did or will unfold. So no real purpose to travel "back" in time to avert your wife's death, unless you just want to know how some alternate version of you gets to live with her.
Reasons.
Instead of fighting to the death to protect Iconia as was her intention. Since she was the only warlike Iconian of the 12 we saved and the only one, we convinced to "claim vengeance" at a future time. It is likely that the other Iconians would have gone off to the Andromeda galaxy, possibly never to return, without T'Ket's influence to return and seek vengeance on the "lesser races" for the destruction of Iconia. The loss of the World Heart would have nagged at them but they may have tried to reclaim it via other means. Not sure if it was presented in game or the blogs that the Iconians came back purely to reclaim the World Heart vs seeking vengeance for a incident that occured 200k years ago.
Unless Yesterday's Enterprise is the true future for Star Trek, after the TOS films, and then when Picard sent Yar back with the C they created the version of the universe we saw at the beginning of TNG.
They had to finish the Iconian story arc in a way that leaves the general game and what already happened unchanged. Not that I´m against brain-bleed inducing mindgames just for the fun of it.
It's implied (to my reading of it) that the Iconians are androgynous much like the J'naii, and that "she" is a pronoun of convenience for all of them.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Perhaps I'm misreading things, but I don't recall "convincing" T'Ket of anything. From my readings of the options as I played a couple of times, the feeling I get is that T'Ket keeps hitting you with, essentially, "Yeah right, tell me another one" until you finally go with "get your vengeance later"...
You know, "kiddie stonewalling till I hear what I want to hear"... Totally appropriate for a highly arrogant advanced race as the Iconians seemed to be back then - reinforced by that little bit in the park... "Really, you think we should listen to your 'Prime Directive' and/or just cave to these aliens? Thank you for your input, but I'll do what I want to do anyway. Cause I'm better than you..."
Then at the end, T'Ket was like "L'Miren, take the gateway before the door closes. Too wounded? Here, let me carry you and swear vengeance on the Romulans..."
What little we have presents a bit of a mixed bag as to their intentions. T'Ket was all "venegeance", however, it seemed like she got a good chunk of it when she instigated Hobus, and knowing that the Romulans were hanging around on Dewa III was a godsend to her, bet she was planning on dragging things out before "dual striking" at the ancient refuge and finishing off the Romulan people...
M'Tara and the rest of them (especially L'Miren), as communicated during the Krenim-planet's time-shunt viewing of their conversation, saw the "war" over the Milky Way more as a way to shut T'Ket up (here you go sister, go curb-stomp this pathetic galaxy since they're bugging us a bit too much) while finally getting around to "finding The Other", because if you remember that convo (and the subsequent blog), everything was "The Other and mah Unity", even going so far as casually dismissing our disappearance - "Pet Herald, what news do you bring? What, that group of lesser people just disappeared and there's absolutely no trace of them? Oh well, why don't you head over to peaceful world X and bring us their civilians to be converted into fodder / experimented on / grilled about "The Other" so you get your morale back up. Now leave us alone", while L'Miren practically told T'Ket to STFU and slow down so they could find their precious Other.
Hindsight tells us that the Iconians knew, 100%, that "The Other" also had their World Heart, so find one, you find the rest - and the Unity is restored...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
I hear T'ket is giving up on the whole kill everyone and is going to star in a Golden Girls Reboot she is going to be blanche
Kinda surprised no one mentioned or I missed in speed reading the thread but what about the Delta Recruits? The whole premise was to give us an advanced warning and gather up all the data they could, but when the best source of data was right in front of them no one ask?
We (well deltas at least) knew the war was coming and at the end of the Breen missions no bothered to get Iconian data from the Preservers? It wasn't until it was too late that anyone bothered to ask?
We have to be the stupidest sentient beings to send someone back in time to warn us but then forget to ask the only ones who coulda helped when we where not only standing right where we needed to ask but left to and then returned from the past and where having a conversation about the impending war.
Plus, no one can tell me that with all this information about the impending threat to the galaxy that Franklin Drake didn't ask the Preservers and have a plan WAY better (well relatively) than using temporal incursions.
Fleet Admiral Ventaxa Proxmire, U.S.S. Shaka Walls Fell
Blog: http://www.sarbonn.com/?page_id=1990
Foundry series: Bob From Accounting & For the Sake of the Empire