I'm pretty sure blagorm's got that concept nailed.
...Oh, baby, you know, I've really got to leave you / Oh, I can hear it callin 'me / I said don't you hear it callin' me the way it used to do?...
- Anne Bredon
Last winter event, Ssharki was the fastest thing on ice. Using him to breeze by Caitians and Ferasans on the ice track with 2.6m of powersliding cold-blooded muscle was too wonderfully hilarious for me to ever give up.
How about this idea: An OPTIONAL trait, called Brute Force
* +15% to physical damage on top of the racial 17.5% melee damage bonus we have now.
* normal ground speed slows to walk speed, shift/sprint slows to normal speed.
* ability: boulder hurl (or whatever is handy on indoor maps)
* tailor/creator changes slider values for height to range from 2.5m - 4.0m and bulk base values are increased by 50%.
That way, if players want to turn their Gorn into a hulking, boulder-throwing, slow-moving brute, they may do so. For those of us who like are lizards more or less the way they are, we're set.
I still want that melee damage bonus in our racial trait converted back into physical damage though.
Perhaps. Since there are more than one type of Gorn though (skinny and small/hulking and huge) Gorn could have two racial traits and you can pick one of either.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
"How about this idea: An OPTIONAL trait, called Brute Force
* +15% to physical damage on top of the racial 17.5% melee damage bonus we have now.
* normal ground speed slows to walk speed, shift/sprint slows to normal speed.
* ability: boulder hurl (or whatever is handy on indoor maps)
* tailor/creator changes slider values for height to range from 2.5m - 4.0m and bulk base values are increased by 50%.
That way, if players want to turn their Gorn into a hulking, boulder-throwing, slow-moving brute, they may do so. For those of us who like are lizards more or less the way they are, we're set.
I still want that melee damage bonus in our racial trait converted back into physical damage though."
Agreed 100%. Glad You Gave This. Will Quote And Put For OP
R'tolves Will Spread Thier Peace and Will Prevail Over the Hostiles Who Dare Hurt Such A Isolationist Consitutional Monarchy!
So.. you are saying cats should be stronger than Gorn?
Cats ARE rather strong mammals and are not cold blooded like Gorn. Would they be stronger? A Jaguar is pretty darned strong and can handle similar sized reptiles so it is a possibility that a small Gorn would not be so overpowering.
First thing is first: It is MELEE not Mettle. Mettle is your ability to cope with tough situations. It is a bit like consitution. Melee, in this sense, is short ranged non projectile combat.
I DO agree that Gorn should be the strongest in Melee without question. Caitians/Ferasans should be more prone to Critical strikes in Melee instead.
Gorn should be rather tough as they are one of the few species that has some natural armor going on BUT Klingons are NOTORIOUSLY tough in Trek Lore and should likewise be rather hard to put down.
Gorn only using rocks or the like is just stupid. That Gorn in Arena was not given any of his normal weapons but before that in the show they were using Mortors and other more modern weapons. They had Star Ships they were not CAVE PEOPLE. Though it would be EPIC if they could grab and throw big objects in the area.
Gorn should be a bit more sluggish in movement compared to others but even more so in cold environments.
Wow... ummm... did anyone felt what I felt there *sniff* That will grow to be one of the best metal singers in the world. I'm so proud of him. :rolleyes:
And,,, may we stay on topic,... you don't have to... maybe me saying "please" will help? Eh, GORN (throw) ROCKS!
R'tolves Will Spread Thier Peace and Will Prevail Over the Hostiles Who Dare Hurt Such A Isolationist Consitutional Monarchy!
I always thought Ferasans melee attacks should be high-speed flurries, preferably with little scratch marks all over the enemy :P
The problem with Gorn is that they are super strong & Tough, as well as highly intelligent and quite quick. Not only should they be able to tear you apart with their teeth and eviscerate you with those big sexy claws, they should also beat you at chess. Then pick you up and through you through the nearest bulkhead.
This makes them hard to portray in a balanced manner. Factor in Cryptic wanted to keep all the races kinda similar, and you have the root(s) of your problem.
Unless you revamp the entire ground combat system to imitate, say traditional fighting games (e.g. Dead or Alive / Tekken), and make some races big and slow, others fast and nimble and the rest a weird approximation of an average, it ain't gonna happen.
Neither is such a revamp - a lot of work just to TRIBBLE off a lot of players
___________________________ The day will not save them. And we own the night.
Again, I would want Gorn to at least be exceleld the most in Melle... SURE id LOVVEEEE A Big Revamp but I know that's harshly unlikely. Therefore, if Gorn AT LEAST Had The Greastest Physical/Melle Damage In Game, I'd Be Happy... Because thier other "by race" traits SUCK... and melle is all that they have, with minor resistance to Plasma and Fire -_-... Gorn aren't ALLL Ground BTW... They Excell In Science and Engineering, MAke THAT Part of Thier Racial Trait W/ Boost To Melle And Knockback Higher Than Other races with some sort of resistance...
BASICLY....
30% Melle
20% Knockback
5%-15% (Depends) Resistance To ALL Damage
*Insert Science/Engineering Buff For Space/Ground Here*
R'tolves Will Spread Thier Peace and Will Prevail Over the Hostiles Who Dare Hurt Such A Isolationist Consitutional Monarchy!
A gorn punch would have rather little striking damage. He has tremendous strength, but there's little momentum in his blows, so there would be little actual striking power. Lifting and crushing, sure. Any foe he gets ahold of is in serious trouble, but getting punched by a gorn would be more like being pushed than punched.
It's the difference between getting hit by a car at 40mph and 4mph.
You've obviously have never been bitten by a reptile.
As someone who keeps a full-grown ball python and a juvie Nile monitor lizard as pets, let me tell you, when they want to hurt something, they can move fast and hit very hard.
...Oh, baby, you know, I've really got to leave you / Oh, I can hear it callin 'me / I said don't you hear it callin' me the way it used to do?...
- Anne Bredon
For a python without limbs, there really is no difference except the part of the body making the impact. When snake strikes it's exerting almost exactly the same proportional bodily muscle mass as a pro boxer stepping into a haymaker.
Also, we have seen that a gorn swings rather slowly,
:rolleyes:
The only reason the Gorn in Arena moved so slowly was because he was in actuality a stuntman wearing a heavy rubber suit in the hot Southern California desert. In reality, large reptiles like alligators can move almost as fast a race horse over short distances, and have the stamina to engage in aggressive behavior for hours. Nile crocodiles have been observed fighting each other for dominance in battles that last from noon until well after sundown.
he's not a monitor lizard.
Obviously we don't have a terrestrial analogue to a bipedal, tool-using, large reptile. But by combining know human and reptilian attributes it's pretty easy to figure out what a Gorn would really be like - fast and powerful and lethal, for as long as they have the energy to fight.
...Oh, baby, you know, I've really got to leave you / Oh, I can hear it callin 'me / I said don't you hear it callin' me the way it used to do?...
- Anne Bredon
We could debate TOS canon vs. Mirror ENT canon vs. STO canon all day and both come up with valid points. I'd prefer to just stick to simple physics, like this point:
The bite of the snake is a crushing movement. The impact of the lunge would be negligible.
How do you figure that a snake throwing nearly it's entire body mass into a strike is doing most of the damage with the crushing force of it's jaws?
When a venomous snake attacks its prey, it actually strikes with it's jaws open at close to a 180-degeree angle and almost flat-parallel to its target. It doesn't "bite" the way we bite into an apple. It actually relies entirely on the force of its lunge to drive its fangs into its victim. That's why a snakebite is actually more correctly referred to as a strike - it really is more akin to a punch or a karate kick than anything else, due to the nature of the bodily force involved. Large venomous snakes, like diamondback rattlesnakes, cobras and black mambas, often strike with enough force to knock down a grown man. Bear in mind, these are snakes that weigh thirty pounds or less.
Constrictors attack in a similar fashion - they launch their heads at their prey, latch on with their teeth, and then pull their prey into their coils to crush them. But often times, large constrictors like anacondas or reticulated pythons will kill smaller prey just by the sheer force of the blow alone. There was a story out of Florida some time ago in which a ten-year-old boy was attacked by a twelve-foot python. He suffered broken ribs just from the strike, and wasn't pulled in and constricted.
My python only weighs about three pounds and makes non-predatory play-strikes with enough force to knock a plastic cup out of my hand.
So apart from the cumbersome fight scene in "Arena" (and I'm still sure that the hot and sweaty confines of the rubber suit had more to do with it than anything else) there's reason enough to suppose that a Gorn with about a Burmese python's worth of muscle mass in each arm can hit you with enough force to send you sprawling.
...Oh, baby, you know, I've really got to leave you / Oh, I can hear it callin 'me / I said don't you hear it callin' me the way it used to do?...
- Anne Bredon
One thing I would love to see with Gorn is the Reptillian Battering Ram manoeuvre.
i.e. 500 lb of armoured Reptilian muscle sprinting into 115 lb of starfleet Cadet.
That little girl is not going to look so pretty afterwards.
As many people have stated, Gorn would be really good at squishing people. Which begs the question: How hard would it be to introduce grappling mechanics? (soortgelijke Dungeons and Dragons)
___________________________ The day will not save them. And we own the night.
One thing I would love to see with Gorn is the Reptillian Battering Ram manoeuvre.
i.e. 500 lb of armoured Reptilian muscle sprinting into 115 lb of starfleet Cadet.
That little girl is not going to look so pretty afterwards.
Since the only physics STO obeys are cartoon physics, it's just as likely that the Gorn will end up looking like a crushed tin-can.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
If You Go To The Gorn Page On "Memory Alpha... Here Is What I Found... It PROVES It Was UN-Intended... just sad to be because of HOW the costume was!
The Gorn captain in "Arena" was intended to not be particularly agile, with the episode's script stating about the Gorn, "It moves slowly, awkwardly," and referring to the creature as "sluggish" and "lumbering". "He's big and awkward... That all fits the costume," said Bobby Clark, who wore the reptilian suit. "Because the costume was thick rubber, it had big muscles ? you couldn't bend your arms. You couldn't walk fast because the feet would hold you back. You couldn't run, because you'd be walking like you had two swimming fins on your feet. And we were walking in brush a lot, so that was tough... [The producers have] said several times that, in their estimation, it was the slowest fight they'd ever seen. Well, yes, it was slow. If it was fast, it would've been the funniest fight they'd ever seen." (SFX, issue #200, p. 135) Michael Westmore attributed the slowness of the alien to the makeup design for what he termed "the lumbering Gorn." Westmore commented, "For all his mobility in Wah's costume and props, the Gorn, because of the heavy rubber appliances and the thick wet suit, is relatively slow and cumbersome [....] even though the Gorn was a very advanced creation for his time." (Star Trek: Aliens & Artifacts, p. 43)
R'tolves Will Spread Thier Peace and Will Prevail Over the Hostiles Who Dare Hurt Such A Isolationist Consitutional Monarchy!
We could debate TOS canon vs. Mirror ENT canon vs. STO canon all day and both come up with valid points. I'd prefer to just stick to simple physics, like this point:
How do you figure that a snake throwing nearly it's entire body mass into a strike is doing most of the damage with the crushing force of it's jaws?
When a venomous snake attacks its prey, it actually strikes with it's jaws open at close to a 180-degeree angle and almost flat-parallel to its target. It doesn't "bite" the way we bite into an apple. It actually relies entirely on the force of its lunge to drive its fangs into its victim. That's why a snakebite is actually more correctly referred to as a strike - it really is more akin to a punch or a karate kick than anything else, due to the nature of the bodily force involved. Large venomous snakes, like diamondback rattlesnakes, cobras and black mambas, often strike with enough force to knock down a grown man. Bear in mind, these are snakes that weigh thirty pounds or less.
Constrictors attack in a similar fashion - they launch their heads at their prey, latch on with their teeth, and then pull their prey into their coils to crush them. But often times, large constrictors like anacondas or reticulated pythons will kill smaller prey just by the sheer force of the blow alone. There was a story out of Florida some time ago in which a ten-year-old boy was attacked by a twelve-foot python. He suffered broken ribs just from the strike, and wasn't pulled in and constricted.
My python only weighs about three pounds and makes non-predatory play-strikes with enough force to knock a plastic cup out of my hand.
So apart from the cumbersome fight scene in "Arena" (and I'm still sure that the hot and sweaty confines of the rubber suit had more to do with it than anything else) there's reason enough to suppose that a Gorn with about a Burmese python's worth of muscle mass in each arm can hit you with enough force to send you sprawling.
I agree with this post, and all the ones before. IMHO... they NEEED to revamp Gorn NOW!
R'tolves Will Spread Thier Peace and Will Prevail Over the Hostiles Who Dare Hurt Such A Isolationist Consitutional Monarchy!
Huge size and strength for lifting heavy TRIBBLE does not make a good mellee fighter. All that bulk makes them slower and less endurance because they have to move all that bulk. A more nimble fighter can move faster and for longer periods of time. In the case of STO mellee it is blade weapons and brute strength does not help at all unless you are chopping peoples heads off at the block.
Now if the combat was whatever that is supposed to be they call pro wrestling then the gorn would be at the top of the list but we dont have that.
Join Date: Nobody cares.
"I'm drunk, whats your excuse for being an idiot?" - Unknown drunk man. :eek:
Huge size and strength for lifting heavy TRIBBLE does not make a good mellee fighter. All that bulk makes them slower and less endurance because they have to move all that bulk. A more nimble fighter can move faster and for longer periods of time. In the case of STO mellee it is blade weapons and brute strength does not help at all unless you are chopping peoples heads off at the block.
Now if the combat was whatever that is supposed to be they call pro wrestling then the gorn would be at the top of the list but we dont have that.
-_0... Gorn are nerfed... and again... They should NOT be weaker than others Canonically
R'tolves Will Spread Thier Peace and Will Prevail Over the Hostiles Who Dare Hurt Such A Isolationist Consitutional Monarchy!
The source of the slow movements is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if it was the writers that decided that (and your quote shows it was SCRIPTED that he be slow) or if it was a limitation of the suit.
All that matters is that the gorn WAS SLOW MOVING.
A gorn's melee tactics should involve efforts to grab and crush a foe, or knock them over and pile on (even a slow moving shoulder charge would likely knock a foe over - again, consider getting hit by a slow moving car).
Alternatively, a gorn would try to compensate for his slower movements by using area attacks (like big rocks).
Once again, their striking power would be minimal. Once they get hold of you, though, they should be doing a LOT of damage.
I guess this is good too. Quoted For Other Ideas.
R'tolves Will Spread Thier Peace and Will Prevail Over the Hostiles Who Dare Hurt Such A Isolationist Consitutional Monarchy!
Comments
I'm pretty sure blagorm's got that concept nailed.
...Oh, baby, you know, I've really got to leave you / Oh, I can hear it callin 'me / I said don't you hear it callin' me the way it used to do?...
- Anne Bredon
Perhaps. Since there are more than one type of Gorn though (skinny and small/hulking and huge) Gorn could have two racial traits and you can pick one of either.
Agreed 100%. Glad You Gave This. Will Quote And Put For OP
This part really made me laugh. So true!
I FORGOT TO EQUIP MY BREATHING TRAIT! HELP ME!!!! :rolleyes:
~Karona@Sobekeus
Jem'Hadar Dreadnought Carrier Exterminatus
I learned it from this...charming and completely calm person.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OQfGtJnBpg
Cats ARE rather strong mammals and are not cold blooded like Gorn. Would they be stronger? A Jaguar is pretty darned strong and can handle similar sized reptiles so it is a possibility that a small Gorn would not be so overpowering.
First thing is first: It is MELEE not Mettle. Mettle is your ability to cope with tough situations. It is a bit like consitution. Melee, in this sense, is short ranged non projectile combat.
I DO agree that Gorn should be the strongest in Melee without question. Caitians/Ferasans should be more prone to Critical strikes in Melee instead.
Gorn should be rather tough as they are one of the few species that has some natural armor going on BUT Klingons are NOTORIOUSLY tough in Trek Lore and should likewise be rather hard to put down.
Gorn only using rocks or the like is just stupid. That Gorn in Arena was not given any of his normal weapons but before that in the show they were using Mortors and other more modern weapons. They had Star Ships they were not CAVE PEOPLE. Though it would be EPIC if they could grab and throw big objects in the area.
Gorn should be a bit more sluggish in movement compared to others but even more so in cold environments.
Wow... ummm... did anyone felt what I felt there *sniff* That will grow to be one of the best metal singers in the world. I'm so proud of him.
And,,, may we stay on topic,... you don't have to... maybe me saying "please" will help? Eh, GORN (throw) ROCKS!
The problem with Gorn is that they are super strong & Tough, as well as highly intelligent and quite quick. Not only should they be able to tear you apart with their teeth and eviscerate you with those big sexy claws, they should also beat you at chess. Then pick you up and through you through the nearest bulkhead.
This makes them hard to portray in a balanced manner. Factor in Cryptic wanted to keep all the races kinda similar, and you have the root(s) of your problem.
Unless you revamp the entire ground combat system to imitate, say traditional fighting games (e.g. Dead or Alive / Tekken), and make some races big and slow, others fast and nimble and the rest a weird approximation of an average, it ain't gonna happen.
Neither is such a revamp - a lot of work just to TRIBBLE off a lot of players
The day will not save them. And we own the night.
BASICLY....
30% Melle
20% Knockback
5%-15% (Depends) Resistance To ALL Damage
*Insert Science/Engineering Buff For Space/Ground Here*
there you go OP
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Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
You've obviously have never been bitten by a reptile.
As someone who keeps a full-grown ball python and a juvie Nile monitor lizard as pets, let me tell you, when they want to hurt something, they can move fast and hit very hard.
...Oh, baby, you know, I've really got to leave you / Oh, I can hear it callin 'me / I said don't you hear it callin' me the way it used to do?...
- Anne Bredon
:rolleyes:
The only reason the Gorn in Arena moved so slowly was because he was in actuality a stuntman wearing a heavy rubber suit in the hot Southern California desert. In reality, large reptiles like alligators can move almost as fast a race horse over short distances, and have the stamina to engage in aggressive behavior for hours. Nile crocodiles have been observed fighting each other for dominance in battles that last from noon until well after sundown.
Obviously we don't have a terrestrial analogue to a bipedal, tool-using, large reptile. But by combining know human and reptilian attributes it's pretty easy to figure out what a Gorn would really be like - fast and powerful and lethal, for as long as they have the energy to fight.
...Oh, baby, you know, I've really got to leave you / Oh, I can hear it callin 'me / I said don't you hear it callin' me the way it used to do?...
- Anne Bredon
How do you figure that a snake throwing nearly it's entire body mass into a strike is doing most of the damage with the crushing force of it's jaws?
When a venomous snake attacks its prey, it actually strikes with it's jaws open at close to a 180-degeree angle and almost flat-parallel to its target. It doesn't "bite" the way we bite into an apple. It actually relies entirely on the force of its lunge to drive its fangs into its victim. That's why a snakebite is actually more correctly referred to as a strike - it really is more akin to a punch or a karate kick than anything else, due to the nature of the bodily force involved. Large venomous snakes, like diamondback rattlesnakes, cobras and black mambas, often strike with enough force to knock down a grown man. Bear in mind, these are snakes that weigh thirty pounds or less.
Constrictors attack in a similar fashion - they launch their heads at their prey, latch on with their teeth, and then pull their prey into their coils to crush them. But often times, large constrictors like anacondas or reticulated pythons will kill smaller prey just by the sheer force of the blow alone. There was a story out of Florida some time ago in which a ten-year-old boy was attacked by a twelve-foot python. He suffered broken ribs just from the strike, and wasn't pulled in and constricted.
My python only weighs about three pounds and makes non-predatory play-strikes with enough force to knock a plastic cup out of my hand.
So apart from the cumbersome fight scene in "Arena" (and I'm still sure that the hot and sweaty confines of the rubber suit had more to do with it than anything else) there's reason enough to suppose that a Gorn with about a Burmese python's worth of muscle mass in each arm can hit you with enough force to send you sprawling.
...Oh, baby, you know, I've really got to leave you / Oh, I can hear it callin 'me / I said don't you hear it callin' me the way it used to do?...
- Anne Bredon
i.e. 500 lb of armoured Reptilian muscle sprinting into 115 lb of starfleet Cadet.
That little girl is not going to look so pretty afterwards.
As many people have stated, Gorn would be really good at squishing people. Which begs the question: How hard would it be to introduce grappling mechanics? (soortgelijke Dungeons and Dragons)
The day will not save them. And we own the night.
Since the only physics STO obeys are cartoon physics, it's just as likely that the Gorn will end up looking like a crushed tin-can.
Well that could also be interesting - 8 ft of Reptilian Beastiness splatters against a young trills chest...
Edit: After reading that, I'd just like to say Please don't misinterpret that, or quote it out of context
The day will not save them. And we own the night.
I agree with this post, and all the ones before. IMHO... they NEEED to revamp Gorn NOW!
Now if the combat was whatever that is supposed to be they call pro wrestling then the gorn would be at the top of the list but we dont have that.
"I'm drunk, whats your excuse for being an idiot?" - Unknown drunk man. :eek:
-_0... Gorn are nerfed... and again... They should NOT be weaker than others Canonically
I guess this is good too. Quoted For Other Ideas.