Romulan ships do have a power penalty. http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=9829851 . They are at a disadvantage which forces players into certain skills in order to alleviate the problem (most players TRIBBLE up skills the first time around and many never respec them).
The Base40 does not work out to be -10 compared to the Base50 though. The math was worked out in the Singularity Mechanic feedback stickied thread in Tribble General.
With the updated Power Calculator, one can go through and do the math themselves if they prefer...
The Base40 does not work out to be -10 compared to the Base50 though. The math was worked out in the Singularity Mechanic feedback stickied thread in Tribble General.
With the updated Power Calculator, one can go through and do the math themselves if they prefer...
Yeah but with a Romulan, I can get a 100-30-15-15 power set, with a non-romulan its 100-70-15-15. All that shield power really helps. These are base and unmodified stats.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
Overall this entire post is an example of the dishonest hyperbole that prevents levelheaded discussion.
I disagree. Call it semantics, but you can't nerf something until it's WAI.
Tpalalena had excellent points about Warbird power levels and how it relates to this console. AFG may not directly boost power, but it helps to make up for lower Warbird power levels. Most Warbirds are only running shields set at 15, it gets up to 60ish power with leech and epts1 I think, far far lower then what average KDF and Fed ships get. This console doesn't even makes up for the much lower shield resists and regen we get. It is completley related to power levels.
If this were true, you'd see way more sci captains. A lot of the non-healing sci skills are a joke. The PvP forums are filled with dumb, I can't figure how to counter it so it must be OP threads (the subnuc doff is a recent example). Most requests for nerfs come from PvP because it's the only place players get to interact with others. The only slight annoyance (and it's fine with me) outside of PvP are borg spheres using EPtE and scattering like roaches. By the way, disabling weapons=console doesn't work. You PvP guys are all experts on quick kills, you should be able to take down a ship by disabling weapons and firing away.
By the way, on the other posts I've read. Getting healed on a crit is just dumb luck. No reason to nerf the console not to heal based on crits, it's stll valid energy weapon damage therefore valid to the console. A lot of people are unfairly asking for an overhaul instead of a very slight adjustment. Either slightly adjust the % heal OR (not AND) make it by volley and not shot. Too many PvP players seem to want to use a sledgehammer approach to this. Again, my vote is to leave it alone, but that would be asking for too much given all the crying going on about it.
If Sci captains are in such a bad place, why do you think almost every PvP tournament ever held in the last few years has banned teams from fielding more than three Sci captains? (You're apparently a professional PvP forums archivist so this shouldn't be a tough one).
The fact that you're dredging up SNB DOffs as an example of an unwarranted nerf is frankly mind-boggling, borderline insulting. You do realize that the DOffs were ship-ambiguous, right? So if anything they were hurting Sci captains by treading on their toes? And there was zero counter to these DOffs. Not one. Yes you could attempt to shut down their weaps but this would've been just as effective against a team with or without the DOffs. A team fielding them was simply at a massive advantage, and it makes me wonder if you've even seen them used in a PvP game before. Now I don't blame you if you haven't, because many players have never seen some of this game's broken aspects taken to their fullest extremes, but humility in the face of ignorance is a virtue friend.
The sledgehammer approach was tossing this stupid item into the cash store without even a bare minimum of balance-testing or at least bug-fixing. STO was quite fine before it came along. The console needs to justify itself being in STO, not the other way around.
Quick replying to this thread to try and steer it a bit and provide some insight into how the proc works, why it works, and what its intended design is. Also, just wanted to suggest that off-topic posts spiraling into the vagaries of prior game-balance changes are not particularly useful, so please try to stay on topic. :P
How it works: Every time an energy weapon you have deals damage, this proc has a 2.5% chance to trigger a shield heal on you. As many of you have pointed out, this does not follow the typical limitation of procs on weapons in Star Trek, which usually only roll their chance on the first shot of any given weapons cycle. The reason this limitation is not present on this console is because its effect scales with the damage of any given shot, not any given cycle - so it establishes a direct relationship between damage out and healing in by allowing it to proc off every shot, while limiting it to the first pulse would be more like "volleys out" to healing in, which isn't really a metric most players will think about as they're using it. This proc is meant to be mechanically analagous to a Lifesteal mechanic in other games (like Neverwinter, for example) - it works best when it works simplest, and every attack you make has a chance to heal you for some portion of that attack's damage.
Design intent: This proc is meant primarily to "smooth" out incoming damage - increasing the time it takes to kill the user, but more as a sustained effect over time than as a burst effect. Initially, it was set up to heal you for much less with each proc, but proc much more frequently than it currently does. This is where, I think, it is exceeding its initial design when coupled with powerful alpha strike damage buffs and AoE BOff skills. This proc is also meant to reward players for firing at close range, strengthening the incentive to close range that Energy Weapons innately have in their scaling damage, and changing the normal dynamic of range in combat from "close range = high risk, high reward" to close range = high risk, higher reward"
Design challenge: Making a passive proc both be effective and feel as cool as a click console is a very delicate balancing act. Our click effects are standardized at a 3 minute cooldown for consoles, because a 3 minute cooldown lets you use them every other combat or so, but also lets their effects be very strong and noticeable. The goals of making this passive "maintained effectiveness" instead of "burst effectiveness" and of making it "noticeable when it goes off" are at odds with each other, creating a very narrow window for its acceptable performance to satisfy both goals. Did we miss the mark here? Probably by a bit, but also probably less than ACT makes it seem. Does the console synergize too well with damage increases? Probably. Does it also highlight the potential disparity between the damage levels of two captains, one of whom is alpha-striking and one of whom is not? Absolutely.
There's a lot of stuff to look at here, and I'm still looking. Whatever we end up doing, my goal will be for the average user to not notice the change, but to bring the outliers in effectiveness back to the intended window for the proc's effectiveness that I outlined above. Thanks for the feedback so far.
Jeff "Adjudicator Hawk" Hamilton
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
I have two questions I sincerely think you'll find valuable as brain food when it comes to this console (and I apologize for calling it 'stupid', but things do get heated in here ):
Do you feel it's wise to reward players defensively for achieving high damage output? This seems counter-intuitive, and far from being high risk high reward, it appears to be little risk for all reward.
Tactical players are already cushioned by the various rep systems, Fleet shields, leeches, balanced BOff layouts, Embassy consoles and so on (this is without taking into account any support from teammates). By granting the console users such an overwhelming defensive reward for being at close-range, the "high risk" portion of getting so close is also nullified.
Cryptic has historically had a lot of problems with balancing passive effects, such as leech, Fleet shields, SNB DOffs and so on. Would it not be more prudent to turn this console into an active skill? At least this way the player is rewarded for his good timing and control over his ship, and players may weigh out the value of taking this console. Unfortunately its strength as a passive console makes it a complete no-brainer, particularly for high damage Tacticals who are already handsomely rewarded.
I should also add that it feels as though a console like this was drafted from a version of the game that hasn't existed for years now. I'm not sure if the dev team is aware just how high outgoing damage has become due to power creep. A console like this is inevitably going to cause issues because of the extreme potential damage figures causing distortions in the data pool.
Why not just simply give it a hard cap that it can't heal more than X amount per proc and make that amount just a bit higher than what a "normal" player would have achieved so we get a little extra for being above average but not a game braking amount.
Considering my Valdore runs almost constantly at 125 shield power from a base setting of 45...that's just downright false.
Yes but you are using leech, epts3, max flow caps with consoles and shield power core to do that. If you don't completley build your ship around high shield power like you did you will have much lower shields.
Why not just simply give it a hard cap that it can't heal more than X amount per proc and make that amount just a bit higher than what a "normal" player would have achieved so we get a little extra for being above average but not a game braking amount.
That may ultimately be what we do, but I'm first looking at reports that the heal amount is sometimes just not synchronizing with the damage of the outgoing weapon, and trying to determine what conditions cause that to be true. If there's a problem with the fundamental mechanic of "Take the damage I just did and multiply it by N, then heal me", it won't matter what I change N to or what value I cap that formula at - it won't be doing what we want it to do.
Jeff "Adjudicator Hawk" Hamilton
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
I should also add that in most games with life-steal, the amount healed is lower than the damage dealt, usually much lower. Even in these games it's a fine balance, for example in both League and GW2 life-steal items were nerfed into line because offensively-oriented players were sustaining themselves and facetanking damage entirely through life-steal).
That may ultimately be what we do, but I'm first looking at reports that the heal amount is sometimes just not synchronizing with the damage of the outgoing weapon, and trying to determine what conditions cause that to be true. If there's a problem with the fundamental mechanic of "Take the damage I just did and multiply it by N, then heal me", it won't matter what I change N to or what value I cap that formula at - it won't be doing what we want it to do.
I know this is just anecdotal but Ive noticed that the times I get instant full shield heals to all facing shields typically occurs when I hit the command to rebalanced all my shields to equal at the same time it procs. It doesn't happen most of the time I rebalanced my shields but it has happened almost every time the proc went off at the same time I was rebalancing. I don't know if there is a bug in that but it may be a place to look.
whats funny is when one of my turrets proc the heal 'n I get , what is it, 4 shots in a volley?,
hit for 800 so I get 4 1600hp shield heals from a single turret. lol. yea that's not op at all
u don't need a beam overload crit for some ridiculous super god mode shield heals.
Carraya system in Tau Dewa sector (needed rom marks )
Results with 4 beam arrays and 4 Kinetic weapons (Kinetic doesn't count toward proc chance assuming I could get more procs with more energy weapons and faster fire rates like a beam fire at will which was not used)
Design challenge: Making a passive proc both be effective and feel as cool as a click console is a very delicate balancing act. Our click effects are standardized at a 3 minute cooldown for consoles, because a 3 minute cooldown lets you use them every other combat or so, but also lets their effects be very strong and noticeable. The goals of making this passive "maintained effectiveness" instead of "burst effectiveness" and of making it "noticeable when it goes off" are at odds with each other, creating a very narrow window for its acceptable performance to satisfy both goals. Did we miss the mark here? Probably by a bit, but also probably less than ACT makes it seem. Does the console synergize too well with damage increases? Probably. Does it also highlight the potential disparity between the damage levels of two captains, one of whom is alpha-striking and one of whom is not? Absolutely.
Heh, ahem...this opens a can of worms discussion to an extent.
Firing Arcs:
45 to 360 (where on one hand it has become easier to maintain a 45 arc but there is still going to be the element of skill)
Fixed Damage Ratios:
DHC vs. Array for example is 1.74:1 (slap on the same consoles, weapon energy (ignoring drain for the moment), abilities, etc...the DHC will do 1.74x the damage of the Array. It's a fixed ratio.)
Tac Consoles:
2 to 5 (or 0 to 5 if somebody is not using their Tac Consoles for DEW consoles).
Non-Tac Consoles #1:
Various non-Tac consoles that boost damage (whether it's +7.6% two piece, Embassy consoles for Plasma, etc, etc, etc).
BOFF Layouts:
Escort vs. Cruiser vs. Sci Vessel and the availability of Weapon Specials. The ability to chain EPtW. Etc, etc, etc.
Captain Abilities:
Tac vs. Eng vs. Sci (well, this one's kind of obvious).
DOFFs #1:
Those DOFFs that reduce the CDs of Weapon Specials.
DOFFs #2:
Using Technicians and running an AtB build to reduce the CDs of Weapon Specials.
Resists and Debuffs:
How those will affect the damage actually being done.
Range:
How damage drops off for different weapons.
Skill Builds:
Not only Weapons Training and Energy Weapons, but also Energy Weapons Specialization and how that affects +CrtH & +CrtD. As well as Accuracy and the potential for Accuracy Overflow affecting +CrtH & +CrtD.
Non-Tac Consoles #2:
Heck, those consoles that affect +CrtH & +CrtD. Those consoles that add +Power.
Reputation:
....
You know, I'm kind of getting tired here...lol. This list is far from complete. There are just so many oodles and oodles of things that can affect damage and it can vary wildly between two characters...well beyond just whether it was a decloak alpha or somebody flying around in circles playing NASCAR with his beams on autofire while going wheee (hey, why's everybody looking at me?)...
Why not just simply give it a hard cap that it can't heal more than X amount per proc and make that amount just a bit higher than what a "normal" player would have achieved so we get a little extra for being above average but not a game braking amount.
Of course, you've already replied to that post as I continue to type this.
That may ultimately be what we do, but I'm first looking at reports that the heal amount is sometimes just not synchronizing with the damage of the outgoing weapon, and trying to determine what conditions cause that to be true. If there's a problem with the fundamental mechanic of "Take the damage I just did and multiply it by N, then heal me", it won't matter what I change N to or what value I cap that formula at - it won't be doing what we want it to do.
And that's definitely going to be a quirky issue to try to locate if that is the case...simply because there are just so many things that can affect damage...
...as well as things that possibly affect the healing side.
Heck, is this something that's affected by a ship's shield modifier? Does the shield emitter skill affect it? Is there anything that is supposed to affect the healing aspect?
Odds are though, it's probably just going to come down the amount of damage some folks do, eh?
I mean, if an Eng in a Chel Grett w/ beams can have freed 5 Remans by the time the other four guys have freed their first...with the Eng in a Chel obviously not being a high DPS boat...there are some issues out there with what folks are doing for damage. Some of the guys that have posted in this thread would be on their way to their third by the time I'd have wrapped up my first with that guy.
There's just that massive a potential discrepancy in the damage that folks can do. So it may just be that case of creating that scaling range for N somewhere between the guys that make me /facepalm and the guys that I make /facepalm, eh?
Normal player.
#1-No fleet ships (You'd be surprised how many people don't belong to fleets or complain about not being able to make ECs)
#2-No blue or purple Mk xii or purple Mk xi TAC consoles. Heck bad weapon and console mix.
#3-No Mk xii weapons or purple mk xi. They are casual and don't have time for constant rep grinds and STF runs.
#4-No optimal doffs and no battery builds.
#5-Skills all over the place.
#6-This also means not all the rep grind passives.
#7-Since it's Romulans, most have the named boffs from the story only.
In the end, try to build the ship with 1mil ec and think of how crappy your ship was before you went into forums and grinded everything. No rerunning episodes for gear, you know most people just run through most once.
even procs with TRIBBLE gear from TRIBBLE builds will proc as much. thats much more impotent then any other factor. the only way anyone could really be at a disadvantage here is if they decided to leave weapons slots blank. thats how far you would have to push this normal build line of BS befor their would be any magnitude drop in procs.
is a normal player smart enough to turn on autofire and hit space bar? boy i hope so, because thats all thats required.
'Normal' or the baseline for how all content should be balanced?
Where does this leave cruiser and science vessel captains... particularly if they favor beams over cannons?
I hate to jump on the "Escort Online" bandwagon, but you know, if the shoe fits...
normal for an escort :rolleyes: a beam boat, which is actually the opposite of normal on all these romulan ships, would have less peaks and vallies with procs because they will be able to hit the target with all weapons more often then a narrow arc cannon user
This may be a little off topic. The item is powerful I agree, but not completely out of the realm of what some universal consoles can do.
I think the main problem is that the over-healing is counted toward fleet action results and rewards. This seems silly. Healing yourself when you don't need healing should not be qualified as contribution to fleet actions.
Once I noticed this I've begun to do the same on other ships and consistently win first place in fleet actions by spamming my heals in a useless fashion to see if it was only the Valdore console that was the culprit.
As far as the amount of healing, I think if it does deserve a balance pass, it you should reduce the amount healed, rather than the proc rate. 2.5% procs are reliable, and I think the item would remain viable if it still reliably healed. If you reduce the % to proc, the loss of reliability would result in the item sitting in a lot of banks.
Quick replying to this thread to try and steer it a bit and provide some insight into how the proc works, why it works, and what its intended design is. Also, just wanted to suggest that off-topic posts spiraling into the vagaries of prior game-balance changes are not particularly useful, so please try to stay on topic. :P
How it works: Every time an energy weapon you have deals damage, this proc has a 2.5% chance to trigger a shield heal on you. As many of you have pointed out, this does not follow the typical limitation of procs on weapons in Star Trek, which usually only roll their chance on the first shot of any given weapons cycle. The reason this limitation is not present on this console is because its effect scales with the damage of any given shot, not any given cycle - so it establishes a direct relationship between damage out and healing in by allowing it to proc off every shot, while limiting it to the first pulse would be more like "volleys out" to healing in, which isn't really a metric most players will think about as they're using it. This proc is meant to be mechanically analagous to a Lifesteal mechanic in other games (like Neverwinter, for example) - it works best when it works simplest, and every attack you make has a chance to heal you for some portion of that attack's damage.
its understandable that its a per shot proc, being based on a single shots damage. but 6-8 weapons fireing 2-4 times every 3 seconds makes a 2.5 chance of something happening trip over each other, like i have illistrated in my many screenshots proveing the subject.
Design intent: This proc is meant primarily to "smooth" out incoming damage - increasing the time it takes to kill the user, but more as a sustained effect over time than as a burst effect. Initially, it was set up to heal you for much less with each proc, but proc much more frequently than it currently does. This is where, I think, it is exceeding its initial design when coupled with powerful alpha strike damage buffs and AoE BOff skills. This proc is also meant to reward players for firing at close range, strengthening the incentive to close range that Energy Weapons innately have in their scaling damage, and changing the normal dynamic of range in combat from "close range = high risk, high reward" to close range = high risk, higher reward"
the console is based on outgoing damage, you have to be offensive to be defensive, thats a new thing in game. proc more frequently? thats not possible, seriously. high damage builds and high damage weapons are not needed here, even turrets are granting several thousand point heals every few seconds. even that derpy d'deridex with beam arrays test was giveing at least 5k per proc. none of my logs use any AOE btw, just cannons and CRF.
Design challenge: Making a passive proc both be effective and feel as cool as a click console is a very delicate balancing act. Our click effects are standardized at a 3 minute cooldown for consoles, because a 3 minute cooldown lets you use them every other combat or so, but also lets their effects be very strong and noticeable. The goals of making this passive "maintained effectiveness" instead of "burst effectiveness" and of making it "noticeable when it goes off" are at odds with each other, creating a very narrow window for its acceptable performance to satisfy both goals. Did we miss the mark here? Probably by a bit, but also probably less than ACT makes it seem. Does the console synergize too well with damage increases? Probably. Does it also highlight the potential disparity between the damage levels of two captains, one of whom is alpha-striking and one of whom is not? Absolutely.
sorry, ACT is not making it seem worse then it is. it procs thousands of highpoint heals every few seconds wile your able to point all your weapons at something. this is a ludicrous item in the hands of anyone that can hit the space bar, with any energy weapon build. in terms of actual combat ballance, the enourmouse over heals dont mater much, its all the constant small heals keeping you healthy thats the problem.
There's a lot of stuff to look at here, and I'm still looking. Whatever we end up doing, my goal will be for the average user to not notice the change, but to bring the outliers in effectiveness back to the intended window for the proc's effectiveness that I outlined above. Thanks for the feedback so far.
take a look at the embassy shield heal consoles, and notice how this console is quite literally 100 times better then those are. i think those actually have a proc lockout period too, so you cant have them go off every 1-7 seconds wile actually fireing.
my advice is to implement a proc lockout period of at least 10 seconds. turret shots giving you more then 3k shield hitpints, DHC procs giving you 50% more then any possible ship shield capacity, that just shows how completely off the 200% modifier is. try 100% or 125%. with the 10 seconds lockout, escorts couldn't benefit more from this then a beam baot could, they can both count on a proc approximately every 10 seconds. and you can count on this console NOT giving you 25% to 100% shield heals every 10 seconds if the magnitude was drastically cut down.
there is no tiptoeing back on this console, its 4 or 5 times more powerful then any reasonable P2W item has the right to be.
I have two questions I sincerely think you'll find valuable as brain food when it comes to this console (and I apologize for calling it 'stupid', but things do get heated in here ):
Do you feel it's wise to reward players defensively for achieving high damage output? This seems counter-intuitive, and far from being high risk high reward, it appears to be little risk for all reward.
Tactical players are already cushioned by the various rep systems, Fleet shields, leeches, balanced BOff layouts, Embassy consoles and so on (this is without taking into account any support from teammates). By granting the console users such an overwhelming defensive reward for being at close-range, the "high risk" portion of getting so close is also nullified.
Cryptic has historically had a lot of problems with balancing passive effects, such as leech, Fleet shields, SNB DOffs and so on. Would it not be more prudent to turn this console into an active skill? At least this way the player is rewarded for his good timing and control over his ship, and players may weigh out the value of taking this console. Unfortunately its strength as a passive console makes it a complete no-brainer, particularly for high damage Tacticals who are already handsomely rewarded.
I should also add that it feels as though a console like this was drafted from a version of the game that hasn't existed for years now. I'm not sure if the dev team is aware just how high outgoing damage has become due to power creep. A console like this is inevitably going to cause issues because of the extreme potential damage figures causing distortions in the data pool.
QFT, its another round of buff tac healing increase sci and leave eng in the dust, what are they suppoesd to do with their MW and RSF if this consoles satisfies all their self healing needs, and those of each team member with one team???????
@Adjunct you ask for feedback stateing things about FA that don't seem to be correct. You got the feedback. Its not a problem with the numerical values, its a design problem given the current meta.
how many screenshots do i need to post to prove that this streak is not the exception but the rule? a 2.5% chance of procing per shot is an enormousness chance of it procing considering how many shots a ship fires at once. this thing is procing off DHCs and turrets in my log, so those small numbers, which are pretty huge, are the turrets and the rest are DHCs, all shield full heals if i had 0 capacity left. some weapons not getting big procs, thats not an issue at all, turrets even generate huge numbers.
i indicate every 4 entries when a new proc happens, theres an entry for each shield faceing. kinda funny how even in the face of actual data you try to say its not procing as often as the actual data indicates. maybe you dont understand what your seeing in the picture?
I still don't care for your snapshots. Put up the entire log and I'll run it through the parser. I already stated I have, albeit a limited data set, to the contrary that it procs more often then the indicated 2.5% over an entire encounter.
I still don't care for your snapshots. Put up the entire log and I'll run it through the parser. I already stated I have, albeit a limited data set, to the contrary that it procs more often then the indicated 2.5% over an entire encounter.
He is just posting the same lucky log all over again, Most likely an alpha strike with all boost he could get, and a lucky console heal series.
I would not put much stock in his data based on a 3rd party program he can edit at will anyway.
An internal cooldown is a bad idea if it always procs on the useless turret heals.
It most likely needs a lower healing that activates on all hits, like Plasmonic leech.
Turning it into an active console makes it useless at Estf, like all active consoles. That's propably the worst thing that could be done to it.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
So hawk, should we just start posting/e-mailing our raw combat logs? would that make it easier for you to see whats going on?
My 2c,
I don't pvp, don't have the time to really enjoy it, But I have seen some crazy healing numbers pop off this console. And I do notice it rewards cannons more often than beams.
Perhaps instead of a %chance to heal % it would work better as a always heals %. kinda like leech. It could still be based off damage so some of the original intent is fulfilled but by always being active it should be simpler to normalize across all weapon types/buffs.
example
Awesome console thing mk whatever.
For every directed energy weapon attack heals shields equal to 5% out going damage.
off topic.
The other mogai console seems really disappointing. 12,000 damage every 3 minutes is kinda worthless.
As a time traveller, Am I supposed to pack underwear or underwhen?
Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
Why not just simply give it a hard cap that it can't heal more than X amount per proc and make that amount just a bit higher than what a "normal" player would have achieved so we get a little extra for being above average but not a game braking amount.
That may ultimately be what we do, but I'm first looking at reports that the heal amount is sometimes just not synchronizing with the damage of the outgoing weapon, and trying to determine what conditions cause that to be true. If there's a problem with the fundamental mechanic of "Take the damage I just did and multiply it by N, then heal me", it won't matter what I change N to or what value I cap that formula at - it won't be doing what we want it to do.
Exactly Adjudicatorhawk, this exactly what it happens. And you are right, ACT or other parse programs make it look worse then it is. The shield heal cap, if it would be possible, would be a good idea. Like for example to limit it to 4 digits, to 9999 heal for example.
Some ppl here that demand, again and again, that the console to be nerfed by adding a 10 secs CD or lowering to 150% or whatever, cant understand that even with those nerfs the console would still show huge healings.
Yestarday I tested it again with all numbers showing, dmg, heals etc and payed attention when the shield heals pop up. I used a full cannon build with 4 DHCs front, 2 turrents and cuting beam rear. It showed normal heals for some time, in range of 1500-5000 heals. But then out of the sudden i got 88k shield heal on EACH facing. Thats imposible to be 200% of my dmg since one of my Dhcs can crit only till around 7k, and i dont think it was even a crit, i didnt looked at the target since i was paying atention to the shields.
I say this again, the console needs FIXING, NOT NERFING.
So hawk, should we just start posting/e-mailing our raw combat logs? would that make it easier for you to see whats going on?
My 2c,
I don't pvp, don't have the time to really enjoy it, But I have seen some crazy healing numbers pop off this console. And I do notice it rewards cannons more often than beams.
Perhaps instead of a %chance to heal % it would work better as a always heals %. kinda like leech. It could still be based off damage so some of the original intent is fulfilled but by always being active it should be simpler to normalize across all weapon types/buffs.
example
Awesome console thing mk whatever.
For every directed energy weapon attack heals shields equal to 5% out going damage.
off topic.
The other mogai console seems really disappointing. 12,000 damage every 3 minutes is kinda worthless.
Sounds like a nice idea.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
So for testing's sake, could people post combat logs in a more QA tester matter? Seeing as it seems cannons might be the problem(I don't see beam complaints), take one cannon and fire away normally, then fire away with crf, etc, etc until you hit the big heal in order to try and isolate the problem. Putting up logs of a ship firing everything with multiple skills up doesn't help much.
On a separate note the other console is bad on damage but I think the main benefit is the set bonus.
he just offered to turn that console into a shield regen console you can buy from fleet emabssy or exchange if you want a crappier version....congrats ,you know how the game works
he just offered to turn that console into a shield regen console you can buy from fleet emabssy or exchange if you want a crappier version....congrats ,you know how the game works
I know how the game works, and shield regen consoles dont regenerate for damage dealt to the enemy.
Imagine if the console gave 500 shield heal for every hit your weapons make, that would be nice but not overpowered.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
Comments
'Normal' or the baseline for how all content should be balanced?
Where does this leave cruiser and science vessel captains... particularly if they favor beams over cannons?
I hate to jump on the "Escort Online" bandwagon, but you know, if the shoe fits...
I remember using beams on an escort before I knew better.
The Base40 does not work out to be -10 compared to the Base50 though. The math was worked out in the Singularity Mechanic feedback stickied thread in Tribble General.
With the updated Power Calculator, one can go through and do the math themselves if they prefer...
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=532731
...learn and enjoy the knowledge gained.
Yeah but with a Romulan, I can get a 100-30-15-15 power set, with a non-romulan its 100-70-15-15. All that shield power really helps. These are base and unmodified stats.
Tpalalena had excellent points about Warbird power levels and how it relates to this console. AFG may not directly boost power, but it helps to make up for lower Warbird power levels. Most Warbirds are only running shields set at 15, it gets up to 60ish power with leech and epts1 I think, far far lower then what average KDF and Fed ships get. This console doesn't even makes up for the much lower shield resists and regen we get. It is completley related to power levels.
If Sci captains are in such a bad place, why do you think almost every PvP tournament ever held in the last few years has banned teams from fielding more than three Sci captains? (You're apparently a professional PvP forums archivist so this shouldn't be a tough one).
The fact that you're dredging up SNB DOffs as an example of an unwarranted nerf is frankly mind-boggling, borderline insulting. You do realize that the DOffs were ship-ambiguous, right? So if anything they were hurting Sci captains by treading on their toes? And there was zero counter to these DOffs. Not one. Yes you could attempt to shut down their weaps but this would've been just as effective against a team with or without the DOffs. A team fielding them was simply at a massive advantage, and it makes me wonder if you've even seen them used in a PvP game before. Now I don't blame you if you haven't, because many players have never seen some of this game's broken aspects taken to their fullest extremes, but humility in the face of ignorance is a virtue friend.
The sledgehammer approach was tossing this stupid item into the cash store without even a bare minimum of balance-testing or at least bug-fixing. STO was quite fine before it came along. The console needs to justify itself being in STO, not the other way around.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Quick replying to this thread to try and steer it a bit and provide some insight into how the proc works, why it works, and what its intended design is. Also, just wanted to suggest that off-topic posts spiraling into the vagaries of prior game-balance changes are not particularly useful, so please try to stay on topic. :P
How it works: Every time an energy weapon you have deals damage, this proc has a 2.5% chance to trigger a shield heal on you. As many of you have pointed out, this does not follow the typical limitation of procs on weapons in Star Trek, which usually only roll their chance on the first shot of any given weapons cycle. The reason this limitation is not present on this console is because its effect scales with the damage of any given shot, not any given cycle - so it establishes a direct relationship between damage out and healing in by allowing it to proc off every shot, while limiting it to the first pulse would be more like "volleys out" to healing in, which isn't really a metric most players will think about as they're using it. This proc is meant to be mechanically analagous to a Lifesteal mechanic in other games (like Neverwinter, for example) - it works best when it works simplest, and every attack you make has a chance to heal you for some portion of that attack's damage.
Design intent: This proc is meant primarily to "smooth" out incoming damage - increasing the time it takes to kill the user, but more as a sustained effect over time than as a burst effect. Initially, it was set up to heal you for much less with each proc, but proc much more frequently than it currently does. This is where, I think, it is exceeding its initial design when coupled with powerful alpha strike damage buffs and AoE BOff skills. This proc is also meant to reward players for firing at close range, strengthening the incentive to close range that Energy Weapons innately have in their scaling damage, and changing the normal dynamic of range in combat from "close range = high risk, high reward" to close range = high risk, higher reward"
Design challenge: Making a passive proc both be effective and feel as cool as a click console is a very delicate balancing act. Our click effects are standardized at a 3 minute cooldown for consoles, because a 3 minute cooldown lets you use them every other combat or so, but also lets their effects be very strong and noticeable. The goals of making this passive "maintained effectiveness" instead of "burst effectiveness" and of making it "noticeable when it goes off" are at odds with each other, creating a very narrow window for its acceptable performance to satisfy both goals. Did we miss the mark here? Probably by a bit, but also probably less than ACT makes it seem. Does the console synergize too well with damage increases? Probably. Does it also highlight the potential disparity between the damage levels of two captains, one of whom is alpha-striking and one of whom is not? Absolutely.
There's a lot of stuff to look at here, and I'm still looking. Whatever we end up doing, my goal will be for the average user to not notice the change, but to bring the outliers in effectiveness back to the intended window for the proc's effectiveness that I outlined above. Thanks for the feedback so far.
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
I have two questions I sincerely think you'll find valuable as brain food when it comes to this console (and I apologize for calling it 'stupid', but things do get heated in here
Tactical players are already cushioned by the various rep systems, Fleet shields, leeches, balanced BOff layouts, Embassy consoles and so on (this is without taking into account any support from teammates). By granting the console users such an overwhelming defensive reward for being at close-range, the "high risk" portion of getting so close is also nullified.
I should also add that it feels as though a console like this was drafted from a version of the game that hasn't existed for years now. I'm not sure if the dev team is aware just how high outgoing damage has become due to power creep. A console like this is inevitably going to cause issues because of the extreme potential damage figures causing distortions in the data pool.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Yes but you are using leech, epts3, max flow caps with consoles and shield power core to do that. If you don't completley build your ship around high shield power like you did you will have much lower shields.
That may ultimately be what we do, but I'm first looking at reports that the heal amount is sometimes just not synchronizing with the damage of the outgoing weapon, and trying to determine what conditions cause that to be true. If there's a problem with the fundamental mechanic of "Take the damage I just did and multiply it by N, then heal me", it won't matter what I change N to or what value I cap that formula at - it won't be doing what we want it to do.
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
League: Understanding The Lifesteal Nerfs
GW2: Omnomberry Pie, long overdue change (this one is particularly telling because the item was balanced by introducing an internal cooldown)
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
I know this is just anecdotal but Ive noticed that the times I get instant full shield heals to all facing shields typically occurs when I hit the command to rebalanced all my shields to equal at the same time it procs. It doesn't happen most of the time I rebalanced my shields but it has happened almost every time the proc went off at the same time I was rebalancing. I don't know if there is a bug in that but it may be a place to look.
hit for 800 so I get 4 1600hp shield heals from a single turret. lol. yea that's not op at all
u don't need a beam overload crit for some ridiculous super god mode shield heals.
D'deridex retrofit
Captain
Romulan Liberated Borg - KDF allied
weapon load-out
4 - Mk XI common Disruptor arrays (2-fore/2-aft)
2 - Mk XI common Quantum torpedoes (2-fore)
2 - Mk XI common Quantum mines (2-aft)
2 - Mk XI common Disruptor coils
2 - Mk XI common Neutronium alloy
Total purchase cost approx: 120-150k EC
Additional items used:
Advanced Fleet Positron Deflector Array
Advanced Fleet Impulse engines
Aegis Covariant Shield array
2-pc D'drex consoles
Subspace Jump console
Tachyokinetic console
Shield Absorptive Frequency Generator
Boff powers can be seen in screenshot
http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u389/kapla1755/2013-06-13_00006.jpg
Test arena
Carraya system in Tau Dewa sector (needed rom marks
Results with 4 beam arrays and 4 Kinetic weapons (Kinetic doesn't count toward proc chance assuming I could get more procs with more energy weapons and faster fire rates like a beam fire at will which was not used)
61 - procs over 30mins
http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u389/kapla1755/Carrayabeamtest2.jpg
Total Heals: 1.6 mil (1.2m from shield console)
http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u389/kapla1755/Carrayabeamtest1.jpg
Total Damage: 3.9m ( I.K.S. Bortasqu' showed up for the 1st run thru )
http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u389/kapla1755/Carrayabeamtest3.jpg
PS.. after running test realized I had Energy weapon doff equipped but he only effects shield power levels.
http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u389/kapla1755/2013-06-13_00011.jpg
Heh, ahem...this opens a can of worms discussion to an extent.
Firing Cycles:
DHCs - 2/3
DCs/Cannons/Turrets - 4/3
DBBs/Arrays - 4/5
Drain Mechanics:
Cannons vs. Beams
Firing Arcs:
45 to 360 (where on one hand it has become easier to maintain a 45 arc but there is still going to be the element of skill)
Fixed Damage Ratios:
DHC vs. Array for example is 1.74:1 (slap on the same consoles, weapon energy (ignoring drain for the moment), abilities, etc...the DHC will do 1.74x the damage of the Array. It's a fixed ratio.)
Tac Consoles:
2 to 5 (or 0 to 5 if somebody is not using their Tac Consoles for DEW consoles).
Non-Tac Consoles #1:
Various non-Tac consoles that boost damage (whether it's +7.6% two piece, Embassy consoles for Plasma, etc, etc, etc).
BOFF Layouts:
Escort vs. Cruiser vs. Sci Vessel and the availability of Weapon Specials. The ability to chain EPtW. Etc, etc, etc.
Captain Abilities:
Tac vs. Eng vs. Sci (well, this one's kind of obvious).
DOFFs #1:
Those DOFFs that reduce the CDs of Weapon Specials.
DOFFs #2:
Using Technicians and running an AtB build to reduce the CDs of Weapon Specials.
Resists and Debuffs:
How those will affect the damage actually being done.
Range:
How damage drops off for different weapons.
Skill Builds:
Not only Weapons Training and Energy Weapons, but also Energy Weapons Specialization and how that affects +CrtH & +CrtD. As well as Accuracy and the potential for Accuracy Overflow affecting +CrtH & +CrtD.
Non-Tac Consoles #2:
Heck, those consoles that affect +CrtH & +CrtD. Those consoles that add +Power.
Reputation:
....
You know, I'm kind of getting tired here...lol. This list is far from complete. There are just so many oodles and oodles of things that can affect damage and it can vary wildly between two characters...well beyond just whether it was a decloak alpha or somebody flying around in circles playing NASCAR with his beams on autofire while going wheee (hey, why's everybody looking at me?)...
In doing a preview for this, I noticed this post:
Of course, you've already replied to that post as I continue to type this.
And that's definitely going to be a quirky issue to try to locate if that is the case...simply because there are just so many things that can affect damage...
...as well as things that possibly affect the healing side.
Heck, is this something that's affected by a ship's shield modifier? Does the shield emitter skill affect it? Is there anything that is supposed to affect the healing aspect?
Odds are though, it's probably just going to come down the amount of damage some folks do, eh?
I mean, if an Eng in a Chel Grett w/ beams can have freed 5 Remans by the time the other four guys have freed their first...with the Eng in a Chel obviously not being a high DPS boat...there are some issues out there with what folks are doing for damage. Some of the guys that have posted in this thread would be on their way to their third by the time I'd have wrapped up my first with that guy.
There's just that massive a potential discrepancy in the damage that folks can do. So it may just be that case of creating that scaling range for N somewhere between the guys that make me /facepalm and the guys that I make /facepalm, eh?
even procs with TRIBBLE gear from TRIBBLE builds will proc as much. thats much more impotent then any other factor. the only way anyone could really be at a disadvantage here is if they decided to leave weapons slots blank. thats how far you would have to push this normal build line of BS befor their would be any magnitude drop in procs.
is a normal player smart enough to turn on autofire and hit space bar? boy i hope so, because thats all thats required.
normal for an escort :rolleyes: a beam boat, which is actually the opposite of normal on all these romulan ships, would have less peaks and vallies with procs because they will be able to hit the target with all weapons more often then a narrow arc cannon user
I think the main problem is that the over-healing is counted toward fleet action results and rewards. This seems silly. Healing yourself when you don't need healing should not be qualified as contribution to fleet actions.
Once I noticed this I've begun to do the same on other ships and consistently win first place in fleet actions by spamming my heals in a useless fashion to see if it was only the Valdore console that was the culprit.
As far as the amount of healing, I think if it does deserve a balance pass, it you should reduce the amount healed, rather than the proc rate. 2.5% procs are reliable, and I think the item would remain viable if it still reliably healed. If you reduce the % to proc, the loss of reliability would result in the item sitting in a lot of banks.
its understandable that its a per shot proc, being based on a single shots damage. but 6-8 weapons fireing 2-4 times every 3 seconds makes a 2.5 chance of something happening trip over each other, like i have illistrated in my many screenshots proveing the subject.
the console is based on outgoing damage, you have to be offensive to be defensive, thats a new thing in game. proc more frequently? thats not possible, seriously. high damage builds and high damage weapons are not needed here, even turrets are granting several thousand point heals every few seconds. even that derpy d'deridex with beam arrays test was giveing at least 5k per proc. none of my logs use any AOE btw, just cannons and CRF.
sorry, ACT is not making it seem worse then it is. it procs thousands of highpoint heals every few seconds wile your able to point all your weapons at something. this is a ludicrous item in the hands of anyone that can hit the space bar, with any energy weapon build. in terms of actual combat ballance, the enourmouse over heals dont mater much, its all the constant small heals keeping you healthy thats the problem.
take a look at the embassy shield heal consoles, and notice how this console is quite literally 100 times better then those are. i think those actually have a proc lockout period too, so you cant have them go off every 1-7 seconds wile actually fireing.
my advice is to implement a proc lockout period of at least 10 seconds. turret shots giving you more then 3k shield hitpints, DHC procs giving you 50% more then any possible ship shield capacity, that just shows how completely off the 200% modifier is. try 100% or 125%. with the 10 seconds lockout, escorts couldn't benefit more from this then a beam baot could, they can both count on a proc approximately every 10 seconds. and you can count on this console NOT giving you 25% to 100% shield heals every 10 seconds if the magnitude was drastically cut down.
there is no tiptoeing back on this console, its 4 or 5 times more powerful then any reasonable P2W item has the right to be.
@Adjunct you ask for feedback stateing things about FA that don't seem to be correct. You got the feedback. Its not a problem with the numerical values, its a design problem given the current meta.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
I still don't care for your snapshots. Put up the entire log and I'll run it through the parser. I already stated I have, albeit a limited data set, to the contrary that it procs more often then the indicated 2.5% over an entire encounter.
He is just posting the same lucky log all over again, Most likely an alpha strike with all boost he could get, and a lucky console heal series.
I would not put much stock in his data based on a 3rd party program he can edit at will anyway.
An internal cooldown is a bad idea if it always procs on the useless turret heals.
It most likely needs a lower healing that activates on all hits, like Plasmonic leech.
Turning it into an active console makes it useless at Estf, like all active consoles. That's propably the worst thing that could be done to it.
My 2c,
I don't pvp, don't have the time to really enjoy it, But I have seen some crazy healing numbers pop off this console. And I do notice it rewards cannons more often than beams.
Perhaps instead of a %chance to heal % it would work better as a always heals %. kinda like leech. It could still be based off damage so some of the original intent is fulfilled but by always being active it should be simpler to normalize across all weapon types/buffs.
example
Awesome console thing mk whatever.
For every directed energy weapon attack heals shields equal to 5% out going damage.
off topic.
The other mogai console seems really disappointing. 12,000 damage every 3 minutes is kinda worthless.
Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
Occidere populo et effercio confractus
Exactly Adjudicatorhawk, this exactly what it happens. And you are right, ACT or other parse programs make it look worse then it is. The shield heal cap, if it would be possible, would be a good idea. Like for example to limit it to 4 digits, to 9999 heal for example.
Some ppl here that demand, again and again, that the console to be nerfed by adding a 10 secs CD or lowering to 150% or whatever, cant understand that even with those nerfs the console would still show huge healings.
Yestarday I tested it again with all numbers showing, dmg, heals etc and payed attention when the shield heals pop up. I used a full cannon build with 4 DHCs front, 2 turrents and cuting beam rear. It showed normal heals for some time, in range of 1500-5000 heals. But then out of the sudden i got 88k shield heal on EACH facing
I say this again, the console needs FIXING, NOT NERFING.
Sounds like a nice idea.
On a separate note the other console is bad on damage but I think the main benefit is the set bonus.
he just offered to turn that console into a shield regen console you can buy from fleet emabssy or exchange if you want a crappier version....congrats ,you know how the game works
I know how the game works, and shield regen consoles dont regenerate for damage dealt to the enemy.
Imagine if the console gave 500 shield heal for every hit your weapons make, that would be nice but not overpowered.