Some sense of faction individuality of play style and tactics would help as things are starting to feel vanilla, also I can sympathize with the daunting truth that one has to grind a lot of stuff, rep and the like to be competitive at the highest levels of PvP. It sucks.
More open PvP adventure zones would be cool.
Possibly some focus on PvP for a change would help draw people in to playing.
Things like kits and more ground options, new space maps and all sorts of other stuff thats been discussed inthe pvp forums.
Though its true what is said about PvP being a school of hard knocks. A new player will die alot before getting better at pvp.
Join PvP Bootcamp and it will help.
I agree about the factional individuality point. I mean, on one hand, I think there should be a lot of room for diversity with regard to builds and playstyles that are viable. But it'd also be nice to seem some distinguishing characteristics between factions, outside of starship aesthetic design. It seems what little distinction is left is being slowly but surely phased out.
I think, for MMOs, grinds tend to be the norm to one extent or another. And it's clear that most players currently in STO don't necessarily have an aversion to grinding--this game is probably one of the most grind-centric MMOs I can think of right now, in all aspects. But I think the problem here is that the PvP grind isn't nearly as structured as the PvE grind, yet it is infinitely more necessary. Extending from this, another problem is that the PvP grind is substantially less rewarding due to that lack of structure. Beyond being a decent way (one of many) to attain dilithium, and get some daily fleet marks, PvP doesn't offer much when it comes to rewards. And you can get the dilithium and fleet marks by losing, so... yeah. So all of the rather unstructured investment required to reach that high level of competitiveness is largely unrewarded in the end.
With some structure added to the PvP grind, be it some kind of addition to the reputation system or what have you, I think that would help alleviate some of the barrier to entry that exists. But then there's the issue of balance that needs to be addressed to.
PvP is currently the victim of PvE balance, and frankly, bad solutions to problems. Look what they did to the entire Science class because of the way Tac-exclusive buffs were behaving with Sci abilities.
I think there's too many "if you don't have..."'s when it comes to PvP.
If you don't have TT...
If you don't have [acc]x2+...
If you don't have Rom Boffs...
If you don't have Leech...
etc.
This is all a problem extending from balance issues. Granted, nothing will ever be perfectly balanced, nor should it be. But, when there's one thing consistently and constantly performing better than all alternatives, that's imbalanced by definition, and those imbalances need to be addressed through either nerfs or buffs. At the same time, the devs have to be mindful of PvE too, so it can be a tricky situation. Some games have tried to bridge this gap and mitigate these kinds of issues through PvP-exclusive stats, so perhaps that is something to consider for STO. But at the same time, you'd have to be careful not to create yet another barrier to entry for PvP in doing this.
If the pvp community is roughly 100 out of the game's full playerbase...Then sure.
I'm sure it's a small group, but it's larger than 100.
100 players represents 20 teams capable of fielding a premade, it also doesn't include players who were reserve in case other players couldn't make it.
Got sick of so so often coming up against a pre made team while I was in a pug group.. Dont see any point in trying when 9 times out of 10 you get wasted.. Make pre mades only queue up against other pre mades and I'd go back to random groups.
The queing takes forever, that's what led me to this forum post. Is anyone ever on? Now I've read these I'll just drop the tutorial missions as it looks like I won't win the Arena level easily.
They should make a 1v1 option: that would get rid of the crappy queuing by making it quicker, like XCOM or smth; also it would level out the inequalities slightly if people didn't go in with a pre-made team, which I have read about on this thread. Also 1v1 would have more of a Trek-feel to it, not to mention be less chaotic. In all the Star Treks 99% of the time it was a 1v1 ship confrontation and the classic battle of Kirk vs Gorn was 1v1, that would be the best; and, bizarrely, even the single player is often 1v1, why isn't that on multiplayer!? When is a good time of day to try PvP though, when is it quick and easy to log on?
If I may digress: if they had 1v1 each Fed character could be told they have to apprehend the other as the other has committed some sort of crime, like in Star Trek Into Darkness, or the Equinox in Voyager, etc. That would be particularly fitting as the Federation seems to be at war where they shoot first and ask questions later, totally against the spirit of the shows, so it would be very plausible and cathartic for the player to seemingly expose the current abuses in the war.
As a player who used to pvp before quitting the game then returned, but not to pvp.
What would bring be back, a pvp option like Guild Wars with everyone on equal footing.
Default ship choices with all white gear for example. Guild wars had pvp gear and even flashy ranks and items, but NONE of it made your character better. It was all for looks and looks alone.
Also the fact that Cryptic refused to keep some ships in balance. For example the bug is overpowered in every single way to every single ship of its class in the game. Nothing comes close. Yet they are willing to nerf the crud out of anything that isn't the bug.
Get rid of all the trolls. You know the ones that you decide to bring a cruiser into PvP and they tell you to leave because you're not flying a bugship.
Or the ones that you manage to top DPS, in said cruiser, and are reported for hacking, when obviously you didn't.
Or the ones that cry that you should use "x" power because they've cried its OP, even though the devs have insisted its working as intended.
After a long enough time of spending more time pvping outside of matches then inside of them, I decided I didn't need the stress of the pvp-kiddies and left.
... anyone who has a JHAS would not be flying any other ship for the same reason, maybe for a change of pace for a day or two of giggles but would still consider the JHAS as their main.
Actually, I decommissioned my JHAS, and deleted a bunch of others, because I don't think they're that good. I'm guessing you've never actually flown one?
There is almost no point bringing the Galaxy R to pvp, Or most cruisers
All i am is a whopping great target for dpscorts, and i go down in seconds even if i try and go tanky...
A lot of folks in Starfleet Dental fly cruisers in PvP and do not encounter the problems you describe (we have the videos to prove it, too). Are you sure that you're not just doing the wrong things with your cruisers? Flying them like an escort is 'the wrong thing'.
I love to PvP and it is usually the only playstyle I enjoy in a MMO, but that is the opposite case in STO.
What keeps me away from STO PvP?
The arena-style PvP game modes and, more importantly, the required min/maxing of ships and abilities to be competitive in PvP.
What do I want from STO PvP/What would make me play it?
I want a galactic territory conquest system, a dynamic storyline, huge battles that include PvE elements to both sides such as allies/enemies/supply transport raids, etc. Not only would PvP become something I would play regularly, it would be something I play exclusively. I also would play STO PvP if all bridge officer powers, playstyles, ships, and other build variables were viable. I hate being forced into a cookie cutter build to be competitive.
I have one of the worst builds you will ever see. I have six points in driver coils and four in Projectile Weapons (I do not use torpedos), yet I have this alarming habit of winning. I'd suggest that if you made better use of the skills and abilities you have, rather than holding them to blame for your performance, you would improve dramatically.
Actually, there is ONE thing, and ONE thing ONLY that could convince me to try PVP again, and that is if there were THREE ships for each side, a Tactical, a Science, and an Engineering, You fly the ship that is equated to your profession, regardless of what you fly in real space, if you're a tactical captain, then you fly the tactical ship, end of story.
Now, each of these ships are NOT customizable, come with Pre-assigned bridge officers, and the exact same equipment for each "type" of ship, so a Klingon science ship would be IDENTICAL to a federation science ship and the same for Tactical and Engineering, the ONLY thing that you would have any control over is your actual captains spec, where your points are assigned and so on and so forth.
This way, EVERYONE would be EQUAL, and NOBODY would have ANY equipment or BOFF advantage over ANYONE else, they would have the SAME abilities at their disposal, so in this way, PVP would be a measure of actual SKILL and not who had more time/money to burn in grinding out MK XII Ultra Rare fleet gear and ships or whatever would give them a decided equipment advantage over someone like myself who has equipment that is EXTREMELY deficient in the PVP area, IE: dying in seconds to someone who can afford to grind 12 hours a day or more, or drop hundreds of dollars on Zen to buy dilithium or C-store stuff to give them an advantage.
So your suggestion to improve PvP would be to make it all about a One True Build cookie-cutter? Did you think this through - the situation that you describe will lead to exactly the sort of min-maxing which people say they don't like, and which does not happen now. It would also effectively reduce PvP to a game of pure chance, where whoever gets more crits wins. You might as well play Dabo.
Anyway, my suggestion:
Reading the forums, it seems that there is some concern in the playerbase about access to T5 starbases, and discontent that the people who built them are able to charge for their use.
I think that we could kill two birds with one stone here: fleets can PvP one another for full and unrestricted access to the defender's starbase (if the defender loses). If the attacker loses, the defender gets a bunch of free requisition and participating defending fleet members get a pile of EC, dil and fleet credits.
Want those Elite Mesh Weavers but don't want to pay 10 mil for starbase access? Fight for them.
While I DO PvP in this game I can say I would PvP MORE if the game was even remotely balanced and did not all but require massive grind in order to perfect a build to PvP with.
1: Balance. Balance will never happen unless there are two different engines, one for PvE and one for PvP. Balance for one, you break the other with out isolating them from each other.
2: P2W. Any aspect of it, if too much there is no point unless you too have bought every single item and pay out $500 a month for P2W consumables.
3: Jerks. People unwilling to help/teach. People going after easy kills. People that would rather attack the distracted. Exploiters exploiting any broken mechanic they can find.
It would take: A sufficient number of people I know in either my fleet or in my friends list who --
1. Have an interest in PvP as a social activity..
2. Are online when I can play PvP.. Usually very, very late..
3. Understand it's just a game and that I might need to go AFK unexpectedly because family comes first..
4. Don't mind that I am not a hardcore PvP'er and willing to put up with my stupidity.
I've got great fleetmates, mind you. But usually not five on at the same time.
I have very little interest in PUG-ing PvP.
It would also take:
1. PvP maps that don't encourage spawn camping.
2. Customizable scenarios and different PvP modes besides kill arenas.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Reading the forums, it seems that there is some concern in the playerbase about access to T5 starbases, and discontent that the people who built them are able to charge for their use.
I think that we could kill two birds with one stone here: fleets can PvP one another for full and unrestricted access to the defender's starbase (if the defender loses). If the attacker loses, the defender gets a bunch of free requisition and participating defending fleet members get a pile of EC, dil and fleet credits.
Want those Elite Mesh Weavers but don't want to pay 10 mil for starbase access? Fight for them.
...that would be a very fun idea.
Though I could possibly see some farming abuse by making little tier 0 fleets with toons that exist only to lose so the others can farm up stuff, or vice versa in that the tier 0 toons would attack the super-high level base (and lose on purpose) for EC, FC, and dil.
Also, I feel that it should be by choice somehow, dunno how to make it work, but it shouldn't be something forced on someone though.
I do like that idea a lot though. Any idea related to actually making it more worthwhile to level a starbase is a positive in my book.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
1. A huge amount of dili
2. Ships that were all equal. ((Mostly a nerf to tac and escorts))
3. Fudge rewards.
4. More EC reward.
5. Orion slave girl reward. ^,..,^
1: Balance. Balance will never happen unless there are two different engines, one for PvE and one for PvP. Balance for one, you break the other with out isolating them from each other.
2: P2W. Any aspect of it, if too much there is no point unless you too have bought every single item and pay out $500 a month for P2W consumables.
3: Jerks. People unwilling to help/teach. People going after easy kills. People that would rather attack the distracted. Exploiters exploiting any broken mechanic they can find.
Regarding 'people going after easy kills', and 'people that would rather attack the distracted'. . .that's just tactics. Especially for folks who are essentally grinding what PvP missions there are (almost all of which rely on 'how many kills you get').
PvP is a competitive sport in STO. If you're distracted, people are gonna take advantage of the momentary lapse. If you're sporting obvious weaknesses and not doing much to counteract them, people are gonna take advantage of that.
Sometimes people go to far. . .but that's inevitable.
Absolutely nothing would "get me into" PvP. I lack the twitchy twelve year old with ADD reflexes...I generally hate competition and competitive based games, and it has been my experience that, every time I -do- step into an arena, it's always the same "opposite of good time" experience. Ditto that it also seems to be the same kind of crowd that gets its jollies with juvenile and puerile taunting.
So, in the end, I just keep plugging away at the PvE aspects of games and ignore the PvP as it's just not for me. Don't much care if people love it to death, and it's perfectly fine by me that they do. Just don't try to force it on me with open world PvP or make changes to PvE balance just to "balance" PvP. Keep the two game mechanics separate.
To answer the original post, as to why I don't PvP, reasons abound:
- No storyline tie-in. This doesn't have much of an impact, but it's there (I like to use Foundry missions for when I need a storyline fix).
- One True Build - I like a situation wherein a WIDE variety of builds are viable. I do not want to submit to the thought that a tac must be in an escort or that a cruiser must be a slow, lumbering healboat or any other of a number of things. While PvE is hardly free of this, it's a lot more forgiving. Frankly, I like battleship builds and think a cruiser actually needs to be able to turn, and I can hear a few forum regulars cringing upon reading this. Some may blame Cryptic for this, but it doesn't change the reality of the situation.
- I like to Kirk. Plain and simple. This shouldn't be terribly surprising as this is a Star Trek MMO, as much as some insist it's a mockery of the source material. I don't like depending on others. While I make no claim as to being able to complete any STF or team event on my own, I want to be relatively self-contained, such that I am not forced into any one activity, but can accomplish several as the need arises, and can generally take care of myself if I have to. I recall the original poster and I traded a few comments about this on another thread on the Tribble forums, in fact. This is on top of the fact that I've learned that online people generally are hard to trust, which might be one reason why I seem to do OK with PUGs - I just assume that the other players will shoot the bad guys in approximately the right order, and that's about it.
- The people - I don't really want to be told what a thirteen year old wants to do to my female relatives because I wasn't 1337 enough to blow his ship up. Now, most PvPers aren't like this, but those that are are loud enough to make up for it.
- Mentality - I keybind a ton of my powers to space bar and rotate them. I'd rather not be looked down upon for the fact that my reflexes are far from the fastest, or that I can sometimes be clumsy with my keyboard.
- Don't particularly like to lose, myself. I already dislike the 'ship explosion' mechanic as my immersion explodes with the ship, so I don't do all that well just from that. In fact, I often find things plain irritating in Ker'rat when I'm cloak-ganked trying to attack the nodes (not saying cloak is OP or not, just relaying my experience on the rare occasion I go there).
- Little reward - A bit of dil here and there isn't enough. This goes with the Ker'rat notes I mentioned in the previous point - if you can't get at least some of the PvE goals done, you lose out on most of the reward, which does not help matters.
- P2W stuff - I understand why it's there. If Cryptic wanted to make money off of cosmetic stuff only, they'd have made about $10 off of me, tops, in the entire time I've been on this game. However, when I see some people cringe at the latest superweapon, it disinclines me from wanting to go to a queue filled with lockbox ships and lobi consoles with my relatively vanilla Fleet Assault Cruiser, which is in itself a cut above the free and regular c-store ships. Ditto for ground, as I have no P2W devices unless you count Hortas.
There are probably a few other reasons that I'm leaving off, as well. As for what the cure for this would be, I haven't any clue, since some of it flat-out goes against the conventional wisdom of most MMO die-hards, who seem to make up the core of the PvP crowd. Other aspects are only up to Cryptic to change. I DO know that I'd like to see PvP get some love, because I actually like a lot of people to be able to come here to enjoy the game, but aside from a few ideas, such as territory-based systems that pop up now and again (that would have to be somewhat separate from core gameplay, at least to the extent that if you wanted nothing to do with it you wouldn't miss much), and more PvPvE areas (I do like the idea of Ker'rat, despite my gripes), I am hard pressed to think of much to fix the situation, although I do hope that at some point the situation improves.
Off topic... this thread has planted the idea of pvp back into my head. Ive tried a few matches over the weekend and I actually enjoyed myself. Didn't have any greifers and won a couple of games.
This thread subconsciously got me thinking about pvp again.
Off topic... this thread has planted the idea of pvp back into my head. Ive tried a few matches over the weekend and I actually enjoyed myself. Didn't have any greifers and won a couple of games.
This thread subconsciously got me thinking about pvp again.
Hmmm.
Thankyou for the thread.
Yeah, I feel PvP just takes a thick skin sometimes. You've gotta be willing to get blown up a few times, and be facerolled by elite premades every now and then. . .but outside of that, PvP is relatively enjoyable. What it really needs is expansion. More maps, more modes, maybe some territorial-control PvP, and a LOT more rewards to justify the time usage. On my bad days, it could take me 45-60 minutes to rack up 10 kills for the KDF 'kill Federation players' ships' mission. Not the best usage of my time, if I'm grinding resources and whatnot.
I prefer cooperative to competitive play. It would take a carrot to get me into PvP. And then only in pursuit of that carrot. So it would be bad for the folks who actually enjoy PvP and bad for me all around. And as such, I really hope if they do a pvp reputation, that the benefits are solely relevant to pvp .
Here's my idea for how to fix group PVP/PUG's (leaving invitation matches separate). You log in to either T1 Connie or T1 Rom Warbird (depending on side you choose) with preset weapons/consoles... the ships are as evenly matched as can be. You have a few moments to assign ONE BoFF and slot a couple of BoFF powers. Then you're off. That would make the contest almost exclusively one of skill and tactics. For matching your build against someone else's you can invite to a private match.
*STO*Its mission: To destroy strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations... and then kill them, to boldly annihilate what no one has annihilated before!
If I can work towards PvE goals in a fashion that assists PvP -- while not being subjected to PvP myself -- then I'd happily do so on the condition that I'm sufficiently rewarded for doing so.
__________
There is no such thing as a free lunch. If you aren't paying for it, you aren't the customer; you are the product being sold.
Dollar, dollar, bill, yo. Cash rules everything around you and me.
This game has PvP? None that I've ever seen. The only thing that's apparent to me about PvP in this game is that Cryptic has taken every opportunity to try and kill it off completely. There is no attention paid to it from a programming perspective so in order for me to 'engage' in it first it must exist, and then be accessible, and after that not horribly broken, and after that hopefully not to be charged $$$ for it in some way.
There are some where I do and some where I do not. In STO I tried it but stopped and probably will never do so again. In all cases the reason is ePeen, name calling, insulting, elitism, and general rudeness. Across all games I have played, including STO, the elitism is strongest among hard-core raiders (here it's the premade ESTF guys who cuss and then drop team if an optional fails) and dedicated PVPrs who believe that PvE is boring and anyone who doesn't have the absolute best of the best gear and skills doesn't belong in the game. Also, PvP communities have at least 5 times the griefers as PvE (where typically the worst offenders are AFKers). For example, the people who refuse to post about bugs they can exploit for fear the devs will fix them.
Kick all of those jack-a@#$@ out of the game forever and I'll try PvP again. A good start would be removing all PvP for a year or two then re-enable it. I'll be there on day one.
What would bring you into PvP?
a community of PvPrs who didn't care if they won or lost but were just out to have fun. And where there were tiers of play based on ship gear. Rewards are irrelevant to me, special gear is actually a deterrent. I feel that people should be able to get all the gear in the game from PvP or PvE depending on their preference, as well as level from 1 to 50 with either method. Putting limits never made sense.
Until you're already good at X you can't get the gear to be good at it.
If you can win at PvP enough to get the gear, you obviously don't need the special PvP gear. If you can't win you'll never get it. Thus it should not exist at all.
1 - Time, most of what time I get to play. Is to do missions, and the alts. With them adding more stuff to do. That will keep me busy for a while yet. Plus I just started with a Romulan so that is more to play.
2 - Gear and Scale. I played in PVP battlegrounds before. They was not scaled and not fun at all. You had guys in there for a while with all the best gear. And for one starting out was cannon fodder. Until you died your way to some gear before you finally became a contender.
3 - Attitude. They go it "alone" so you loose most of the time. As they rather go solo and be a hero. Thus your party dies and looses. And I saw some bad attitudes as well on the chats due to frustration of loosing. And party falling apart.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
I agree with this. PVE and PVP do not go well together. At all. Balance in one can be devastating to the other.
In the name of balance, PVP destroys the individuality of character builds because everybody has to be on a level playing field. Everybody has to be able to hold their own in a PVP battle
That shouldn't be the case in an RPG. The whole point to various classes, professions, etc, is so different people are valuable in different situations. If you're going into a fist fight, Worf is the officer to take, but if you need a warp core repaired, Geordi's your guy.
In PVP, both of them have to be able to do the same basic things. And if they don't do the same basic things, they have to be perfectly counter-balanced with each other in a Paper-Rock-Scissors kind of way.
This absolutely destroys immersion in MMOs, and immersion is why I play MMOs. In life, people aren't perfectly balanced to each others' strengths and weaknesses. Some people are great at one thing, but terrible at a dozen other things.
If we didn't have to factor in that balance, PVE would have much more freedom to focus on developing realistic characters.
Now, I have nothing against PVP. If that's what's fun to you, that's fantastic. I just think trying to shoehorn them into the same game almost always detracts from both aspects.
Comments
If the pvp community is roughly 100 out of the game's full playerbase...Then sure.
I agree about the factional individuality point. I mean, on one hand, I think there should be a lot of room for diversity with regard to builds and playstyles that are viable. But it'd also be nice to seem some distinguishing characteristics between factions, outside of starship aesthetic design. It seems what little distinction is left is being slowly but surely phased out.
I think, for MMOs, grinds tend to be the norm to one extent or another. And it's clear that most players currently in STO don't necessarily have an aversion to grinding--this game is probably one of the most grind-centric MMOs I can think of right now, in all aspects. But I think the problem here is that the PvP grind isn't nearly as structured as the PvE grind, yet it is infinitely more necessary. Extending from this, another problem is that the PvP grind is substantially less rewarding due to that lack of structure. Beyond being a decent way (one of many) to attain dilithium, and get some daily fleet marks, PvP doesn't offer much when it comes to rewards. And you can get the dilithium and fleet marks by losing, so... yeah. So all of the rather unstructured investment required to reach that high level of competitiveness is largely unrewarded in the end.
With some structure added to the PvP grind, be it some kind of addition to the reputation system or what have you, I think that would help alleviate some of the barrier to entry that exists. But then there's the issue of balance that needs to be addressed to.
PvP is currently the victim of PvE balance, and frankly, bad solutions to problems. Look what they did to the entire Science class because of the way Tac-exclusive buffs were behaving with Sci abilities.
I think there's too many "if you don't have..."'s when it comes to PvP.
If you don't have TT...
If you don't have [acc]x2+...
If you don't have Rom Boffs...
If you don't have Leech...
etc.
This is all a problem extending from balance issues. Granted, nothing will ever be perfectly balanced, nor should it be. But, when there's one thing consistently and constantly performing better than all alternatives, that's imbalanced by definition, and those imbalances need to be addressed through either nerfs or buffs. At the same time, the devs have to be mindful of PvE too, so it can be a tricky situation. Some games have tried to bridge this gap and mitigate these kinds of issues through PvP-exclusive stats, so perhaps that is something to consider for STO. But at the same time, you'd have to be careful not to create yet another barrier to entry for PvP in doing this.
I'm sure it's a small group, but it's larger than 100.
100 players represents 20 teams capable of fielding a premade, it also doesn't include players who were reserve in case other players couldn't make it.
Barrier to Entry is too large (gear/knowledge/grind/social/etc).
Rewards are too small/not exclusive.
Change those two things and PvP will become more popular.
See what I did there? :P
This.
10char
They should make a 1v1 option: that would get rid of the crappy queuing by making it quicker, like XCOM or smth; also it would level out the inequalities slightly if people didn't go in with a pre-made team, which I have read about on this thread. Also 1v1 would have more of a Trek-feel to it, not to mention be less chaotic. In all the Star Treks 99% of the time it was a 1v1 ship confrontation and the classic battle of Kirk vs Gorn was 1v1, that would be the best; and, bizarrely, even the single player is often 1v1, why isn't that on multiplayer!? When is a good time of day to try PvP though, when is it quick and easy to log on?
If I may digress: if they had 1v1 each Fed character could be told they have to apprehend the other as the other has committed some sort of crime, like in Star Trek Into Darkness, or the Equinox in Voyager, etc. That would be particularly fitting as the Federation seems to be at war where they shoot first and ask questions later, totally against the spirit of the shows, so it would be very plausible and cathartic for the player to seemingly expose the current abuses in the war.
What would bring be back, a pvp option like Guild Wars with everyone on equal footing.
Default ship choices with all white gear for example. Guild wars had pvp gear and even flashy ranks and items, but NONE of it made your character better. It was all for looks and looks alone.
Also the fact that Cryptic refused to keep some ships in balance. For example the bug is overpowered in every single way to every single ship of its class in the game. Nothing comes close. Yet they are willing to nerf the crud out of anything that isn't the bug.
Get rid of all the trolls. You know the ones that you decide to bring a cruiser into PvP and they tell you to leave because you're not flying a bugship.
Or the ones that you manage to top DPS, in said cruiser, and are reported for hacking, when obviously you didn't.
Or the ones that cry that you should use "x" power because they've cried its OP, even though the devs have insisted its working as intended.
After a long enough time of spending more time pvping outside of matches then inside of them, I decided I didn't need the stress of the pvp-kiddies and left.
Actually, I decommissioned my JHAS, and deleted a bunch of others, because I don't think they're that good. I'm guessing you've never actually flown one?
A lot of folks in Starfleet Dental fly cruisers in PvP and do not encounter the problems you describe (we have the videos to prove it, too). Are you sure that you're not just doing the wrong things with your cruisers? Flying them like an escort is 'the wrong thing'.
I have one of the worst builds you will ever see. I have six points in driver coils and four in Projectile Weapons (I do not use torpedos), yet I have this alarming habit of winning. I'd suggest that if you made better use of the skills and abilities you have, rather than holding them to blame for your performance, you would improve dramatically.
So your suggestion to improve PvP would be to make it all about a One True Build cookie-cutter? Did you think this through - the situation that you describe will lead to exactly the sort of min-maxing which people say they don't like, and which does not happen now. It would also effectively reduce PvP to a game of pure chance, where whoever gets more crits wins. You might as well play Dabo.
Anyway, my suggestion:
Reading the forums, it seems that there is some concern in the playerbase about access to T5 starbases, and discontent that the people who built them are able to charge for their use.
I think that we could kill two birds with one stone here: fleets can PvP one another for full and unrestricted access to the defender's starbase (if the defender loses). If the attacker loses, the defender gets a bunch of free requisition and participating defending fleet members get a pile of EC, dil and fleet credits.
Want those Elite Mesh Weavers but don't want to pay 10 mil for starbase access? Fight for them.
2: P2W. Any aspect of it, if too much there is no point unless you too have bought every single item and pay out $500 a month for P2W consumables.
3: Jerks. People unwilling to help/teach. People going after easy kills. People that would rather attack the distracted. Exploiters exploiting any broken mechanic they can find.
1. Have an interest in PvP as a social activity..
2. Are online when I can play PvP.. Usually very, very late..
3. Understand it's just a game and that I might need to go AFK unexpectedly because family comes first..
4. Don't mind that I am not a hardcore PvP'er and willing to put up with my stupidity.
I've got great fleetmates, mind you. But usually not five on at the same time.
I have very little interest in PUG-ing PvP.
It would also take:
1. PvP maps that don't encourage spawn camping.
2. Customizable scenarios and different PvP modes besides kill arenas.
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Anyways...
...that would be a very fun idea.
Though I could possibly see some farming abuse by making little tier 0 fleets with toons that exist only to lose so the others can farm up stuff, or vice versa in that the tier 0 toons would attack the super-high level base (and lose on purpose) for EC, FC, and dil.
Also, I feel that it should be by choice somehow, dunno how to make it work, but it shouldn't be something forced on someone though.
I do like that idea a lot though. Any idea related to actually making it more worthwhile to level a starbase is a positive in my book.
2. Ships that were all equal. ((Mostly a nerf to tac and escorts))
3. Fudge rewards.
4. More EC reward.
5. Orion slave girl reward. ^,..,^
Regarding 'people going after easy kills', and 'people that would rather attack the distracted'. . .that's just tactics. Especially for folks who are essentally grinding what PvP missions there are (almost all of which rely on 'how many kills you get').
PvP is a competitive sport in STO. If you're distracted, people are gonna take advantage of the momentary lapse. If you're sporting obvious weaknesses and not doing much to counteract them, people are gonna take advantage of that.
Sometimes people go to far. . .but that's inevitable.
So, in the end, I just keep plugging away at the PvE aspects of games and ignore the PvP as it's just not for me. Don't much care if people love it to death, and it's perfectly fine by me that they do. Just don't try to force it on me with open world PvP or make changes to PvE balance just to "balance" PvP. Keep the two game mechanics separate.
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
- No storyline tie-in. This doesn't have much of an impact, but it's there (I like to use Foundry missions for when I need a storyline fix).
- One True Build - I like a situation wherein a WIDE variety of builds are viable. I do not want to submit to the thought that a tac must be in an escort or that a cruiser must be a slow, lumbering healboat or any other of a number of things. While PvE is hardly free of this, it's a lot more forgiving. Frankly, I like battleship builds and think a cruiser actually needs to be able to turn, and I can hear a few forum regulars cringing upon reading this. Some may blame Cryptic for this, but it doesn't change the reality of the situation.
- I like to Kirk. Plain and simple. This shouldn't be terribly surprising as this is a Star Trek MMO, as much as some insist it's a mockery of the source material. I don't like depending on others. While I make no claim as to being able to complete any STF or team event on my own, I want to be relatively self-contained, such that I am not forced into any one activity, but can accomplish several as the need arises, and can generally take care of myself if I have to. I recall the original poster and I traded a few comments about this on another thread on the Tribble forums, in fact. This is on top of the fact that I've learned that online people generally are hard to trust, which might be one reason why I seem to do OK with PUGs - I just assume that the other players will shoot the bad guys in approximately the right order, and that's about it.
- The people - I don't really want to be told what a thirteen year old wants to do to my female relatives because I wasn't 1337 enough to blow his ship up. Now, most PvPers aren't like this, but those that are are loud enough to make up for it.
- Mentality - I keybind a ton of my powers to space bar and rotate them. I'd rather not be looked down upon for the fact that my reflexes are far from the fastest, or that I can sometimes be clumsy with my keyboard.
- Don't particularly like to lose, myself. I already dislike the 'ship explosion' mechanic as my immersion explodes with the ship, so I don't do all that well just from that. In fact, I often find things plain irritating in Ker'rat when I'm cloak-ganked trying to attack the nodes (not saying cloak is OP or not, just relaying my experience on the rare occasion I go there).
- Little reward - A bit of dil here and there isn't enough. This goes with the Ker'rat notes I mentioned in the previous point - if you can't get at least some of the PvE goals done, you lose out on most of the reward, which does not help matters.
- P2W stuff - I understand why it's there. If Cryptic wanted to make money off of cosmetic stuff only, they'd have made about $10 off of me, tops, in the entire time I've been on this game. However, when I see some people cringe at the latest superweapon, it disinclines me from wanting to go to a queue filled with lockbox ships and lobi consoles with my relatively vanilla Fleet Assault Cruiser, which is in itself a cut above the free and regular c-store ships. Ditto for ground, as I have no P2W devices unless you count Hortas.
There are probably a few other reasons that I'm leaving off, as well. As for what the cure for this would be, I haven't any clue, since some of it flat-out goes against the conventional wisdom of most MMO die-hards, who seem to make up the core of the PvP crowd. Other aspects are only up to Cryptic to change. I DO know that I'd like to see PvP get some love, because I actually like a lot of people to be able to come here to enjoy the game, but aside from a few ideas, such as territory-based systems that pop up now and again (that would have to be somewhat separate from core gameplay, at least to the extent that if you wanted nothing to do with it you wouldn't miss much), and more PvPvE areas (I do like the idea of Ker'rat, despite my gripes), I am hard pressed to think of much to fix the situation, although I do hope that at some point the situation improves.
This thread subconsciously got me thinking about pvp again.
Hmmm.
Thankyou for the thread.
Yeah, I feel PvP just takes a thick skin sometimes. You've gotta be willing to get blown up a few times, and be facerolled by elite premades every now and then. . .but outside of that, PvP is relatively enjoyable. What it really needs is expansion. More maps, more modes, maybe some territorial-control PvP, and a LOT more rewards to justify the time usage. On my bad days, it could take me 45-60 minutes to rack up 10 kills for the KDF 'kill Federation players' ships' mission. Not the best usage of my time, if I'm grinding resources and whatnot.
Because I prefer cooperative play over competitive play and because I don't care to associate with the kind of people who tend to PvP in these games.
The problem with PvP is the PvPers.
Turn it into PvE.
If I can work towards PvE goals in a fashion that assists PvP -- while not being subjected to PvP myself -- then I'd happily do so on the condition that I'm sufficiently rewarded for doing so.
There is no such thing as a free lunch. If you aren't paying for it, you aren't the customer; you are the product being sold.
Dollar, dollar, bill, yo. Cash rules everything around you and me.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The o3 - Killed you good
Kick all of those jack-a@#$@ out of the game forever and I'll try PvP again. A good start would be removing all PvP for a year or two then re-enable it. I'll be there on day one.
a community of PvPrs who didn't care if they won or lost but were just out to have fun. And where there were tiers of play based on ship gear. Rewards are irrelevant to me, special gear is actually a deterrent. I feel that people should be able to get all the gear in the game from PvP or PvE depending on their preference, as well as level from 1 to 50 with either method. Putting limits never made sense.
Until you're already good at X you can't get the gear to be good at it.
If you can win at PvP enough to get the gear, you obviously don't need the special PvP gear. If you can't win you'll never get it. Thus it should not exist at all.
Let people play whatever content they want.
They're not PvP games.
A game designed for PvP.
1 - Time, most of what time I get to play. Is to do missions, and the alts. With them adding more stuff to do. That will keep me busy for a while yet. Plus I just started with a Romulan so that is more to play.
2 - Gear and Scale. I played in PVP battlegrounds before. They was not scaled and not fun at all. You had guys in there for a while with all the best gear. And for one starting out was cannon fodder. Until you died your way to some gear before you finally became a contender.
3 - Attitude. They go it "alone" so you loose most of the time. As they rather go solo and be a hero. Thus your party dies and looses. And I saw some bad attitudes as well on the chats due to frustration of loosing. And party falling apart.
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Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
I agree with this. PVE and PVP do not go well together. At all. Balance in one can be devastating to the other.
In the name of balance, PVP destroys the individuality of character builds because everybody has to be on a level playing field. Everybody has to be able to hold their own in a PVP battle
That shouldn't be the case in an RPG. The whole point to various classes, professions, etc, is so different people are valuable in different situations. If you're going into a fist fight, Worf is the officer to take, but if you need a warp core repaired, Geordi's your guy.
In PVP, both of them have to be able to do the same basic things. And if they don't do the same basic things, they have to be perfectly counter-balanced with each other in a Paper-Rock-Scissors kind of way.
This absolutely destroys immersion in MMOs, and immersion is why I play MMOs. In life, people aren't perfectly balanced to each others' strengths and weaknesses. Some people are great at one thing, but terrible at a dozen other things.
If we didn't have to factor in that balance, PVE would have much more freedom to focus on developing realistic characters.
Now, I have nothing against PVP. If that's what's fun to you, that's fantastic. I just think trying to shoehorn them into the same game almost always detracts from both aspects.