Mostly, to be blunt, other PvPers. While I acknowledge they're only part of the crowd, I can't tolerate the extreme "I play to win, period" players who are all about every last bit of damage and how "elite" they are. So, I simply avoid them and save everyone the headache.
-shrug-
No reward for the effort. There used to be reward. When I started this game, the best shield and debatably the best deflector came from PvP. So I engaged in PvP to earn them.
What would bring you into PvP?
Well I do PvP a bit these days. Mostly ground. The thing is, it's not fun like it used to be. Space PvP especially is just stagnant. There's been no development. No real evolution. And they've taken more away from the game than added to it.
PvP in this game is a real stinker.
Even LOTRO's PvP, with it's much maligned Monster Play is more engaging than this game's PvP.
So now you're stuck. Do you put resources toward it? I don't think the devs have the green light to do so. And I'm not sure Cryptic really has a plan on how to improve it. And what plans/whiteboard stuff they do have is probably way out of touch with the players.
I'm also not convinced MMOs as a framework make for great PvP to begin with. I just keep thinking how can anything compare to the Left4Dead 2 stuff or Team Fortress 2, which are extremely simple in terms of mechanics and yet still are far more streamlined for player versus player interaction.
I don't know. Not real sure PvP has much hope to improve. But I'm sure they'll try with a rep system and rewards. That's the MMO way of doing things. Throw a grind with carrots at it.
ussultimatum,
From your sig I know you're one of the "l33t" e-peen bunch.
What's the matter? Did you guys run out of noobs to smash? I guess that makes you guys the winner, huh?
To the victor go the spoils: empty PvP queues. Bravo.
It's interesting that many the players in this thread keep talking about how PvPers are immature, or mean, or whatever other insults people feel free to hurl exactly that at other players.
Your post is among them.
Isn't it a touch ironic that you all have so much hatred and vitriol for other players who PvP and express that by clearly being exactly what it is you describe you despise?
I'm curious gfreeman, when did I insult you to deserve such a reply?
Reading some of the replies to this thread are rather disheartening. As a former pve diehard carebear, and as a recent newbie to pvp (check join date to left, subtract a few months to level and enjoy then get bored of pve content), I can attest that some of you have the wrong idea about pvp in this game!
While initially I was getting the snot beat out of me, I can promise you that you don't need the best equipment and the best ships to be competitive. I only just got omega t5 2 days ago and the t5 shield and engines that come with it, and I wont get t4 romulan passives until I log in sometime today. I used to pilot a nebula and before that a DSSV as a healer. So I have been at a disadvantage and have still been able to compete.
Teamwork is king in Arenas, even with pug groups, and a few keybinds to rally everyone to hit the same target or throw a heal can even the odds against a premade. When you are new, and not familiar with the things that kill you and help you kill in pvp, things are rough....but once you know the basics, ANYONE can win on any given day.
Finally, maybe its just me, but I don't see this pvp community everyone is so afraid to be slaughtered and insulted by. Yeah, you get your jerkwad every few matches that thinks his TRIBBLE is actually potpourri and feels its his civic duty to point out how awesome he thinks he is and how inferior you appear to be, but for the most part everyone in the opvp community and the top tier pvp fleets are courteous, helpful and are not afraid to toss out a gg at hte end of the match, or at least thank you for the match if it didn't go well for ya and it almost feels insulting to be told gg.
Reading everyone's thoughts, before I took the plunge I felt exactly the same way, now I feel depressed everytime I'm forced to do pve for reputation and I enthusiastically queue up for arena pvp everyday whether it be by myself, with my fleetmates, or with a premade. I think pvp gets a bad rap, perhaps from kerrat, or from previous mmo experiences....I sincerely hope everyone hears my words and maybe give a second chance to pvp.
Really, I used to PVP in a game called "Red Baron 3d". It's a WWI flight simulator. The situation was that each player could choose an aircraft depending on what side he was flying for. The players knew the strength and weakness of each aircraft. Some could climb well, some maneuver well. Some had one gun while others had two. Some were fast, others slow.
The thing was that no matter which aircraft you picked, it was the same aircraft for everyone. Then it came down to skill (and maybe how good your computer equipment was). You couldn't change the plane in-game. It was coded, and you might have a favorite aircraft that you loved to fly, but it was never better than another of the same kind.
So here's how I would come back into PVP. Make PVP ships. Make a standard model for all. This might mean one side would all fly the same make and model ship, but that would mean it was the best. Of course, the opposite side might do the same thing. It might be boring. It might not.
But I saw guys take some of the mediocre aircraft, learn their strengths and weaknesses and do amazing things with them.
Do I think this will happen? Not on your life! PVP is too much of an ego trip for players.
Guess I'll never PVP in this game. Perhaps I could interest you in a one on one in a flight simulator?
Reading some of the replies to this thread are rather disheartening. As a former pve diehard carebear, and as a recent newbie to pvp (check join date to left, subtract a few months to level and enjoy then get bored of pve content), I can attest that some of you have the wrong idea about pvp in this game!
While initially I was getting the snot beat out of me, I can promise you that you don't need the best equipment and the best ships to be competitive. I only just got omega t5 2 days ago and the t5 shield and engines that come with it, and I wont get t4 romulan passives until I log in sometime today. I used to pilot a nebula and before that a DSSV as a healer. So I have been at a disadvantage and have still been able to compete.
Teamwork is king in Arenas, even with pug groups, and a few keybinds to rally everyone to hit the same target or throw a heal can even the odds against a premade. When you are new, and not familiar with the things that kill you and help you kill in pvp, things are rough....but once you know the basics, ANYONE can win on any given day.
Finally, maybe its just me, but I don't see this pvp community everyone is so afraid to be slaughtered and insulted by. Yeah, you get your jerkwad every few matches that thinks his TRIBBLE is actually potpourri and feels its his civic duty to point out how awesome he thinks he is and how inferior you appear to be, but for the most part everyone in the opvp community and the top tier pvp fleets are courteous, helpful and are not afraid to toss out a gg at hte end of the match, or at least thank you for the match if it didn't go well for ya and it almost feels insulting to be told gg.
Reading everyone's thoughts, before I took the plunge I felt exactly the same way, now I feel depressed everytime I'm forced to do pve for reputation and I enthusiastically queue up for arena pvp everyday whether it be by myself, with my fleetmates, or with a premade. I think pvp gets a bad rap, perhaps from kerrat, or from previous mmo experiences....I sincerely hope everyone hears my words and maybe give a second chance to pvp.
Great post! Friend me in game, I'll PVP with you anytime (except when I'm doing PVE with the wife). My handle is @Turkz.
I'm a lover not a fighter. But I'm also a fighter so don't get any ideas...
Not a single thing. Progression games and PVP do not mix well, ever. It's like you're playing chess, except in a club where, once a month, you get an extra pawn. If I want a PVP game, I'll play Call of Duty or something.
I can attest that some of you have the wrong idea about pvp in this game!
While initially I was getting the snot beat out of me, I can promise you that you don't need the best equipment and the best ships to be competitive.
Bunk, sir. Hokum. You say teamwork is important? I'll grant you it is. That doesn't obviate the fact that the guy who's got the other accrued advantages STILL HAS THOSE ADVANTAGES. Saying that great gear without teamwork or skill won't beat poor gear with teamwork and skill is a false equivalence: Teamwork and skill are freely available to anyone, and the guys who have been grinding away for years will have it in abundance. In addition to the better ships, weapons and consoles that they've collected over their long hours of play.
I was hoping the addition of the Romulans would bring some PvPvP team maps where 3 teams could make it interesting but I guess they worked around that one.
Dammit J'mpok! I'm a warrior... not a PETA tagger!
Isn't it a touch ironic that you all have so much hatred and vitriol for other players who PvP and express that by clearly being exactly what it is you describe you despise?
I've always been pretty laid back about this particular facet of the PvP "experience."
Granted I myself have fallen into the "but you like PvE so you must suck" trollbait from time to time. Mostly I try to ignore it (and lately I've been baited for doing just that, ignoring it, with some folks aggressively asking me why I keep ignoring what they're saying, not realizing that I'm doing them a favor by not engaging in this no win discussion).
But here's the thing that I think we always lose sight of. And it's a lesson I learned playing Magic the Gathering ages ago.
People are ATTACHED to their characters. They're an extension of them. They put time, effort and creativity into them. They lose their minds when that character is SNUFFED OUT in a PvP match. It's like they die.
I get that. And I fully understand why people get very thin skinned in situations like that. In Magic, a lot of new players get attached to their creatures. They think they are an extension of them and their deck. They forget that the creatures are just one kind of spell. You play your creature, and I use a counter spell to counter it, it's just us trading spells. People used to LOATHE counter spells because of that. I get it. But once you learned that the creature was just another resouce at your disposal, you became a better Magic player. I know I learned how to beat control decks by grasping that. You WANT that counter spell drawn out. You want to force the control player to react.
In PvP, the only real impact your character's death has on the match is you might be one of the 15 kills they need. It's NOT personal. Don't take it personal. In Kerat it's not even an issue there. You die, you respawn. You go go go.
But I get it. People feel like a part of them has been destroyed and insulted. It's just how that goes.
I could care less. Spawn camping is a bit of a **** move, but I learned ages ago how to avoid that in other games. Just switch characters for a sec. Or if your guild is on, get reinforcements, and things escalate and before you knew it, Tarren Mill was GAME ON!
But anyways, what I'm trying to say in the wordiest way possible is ... people get all kinds of irrational when they die repeatedly in PvP. They need to disassociate from that. And realize it's just like if the ghosts caught you in Pac-Man. A sec or two later, you're back in action and nothing changed. It's no reflection on you as a player. Everyone dies in PvP. Everyone. It's the whole point. To kill each other.
Once you lessen your death grip on your character staying alive, you then start to poke your head up and learn to have fun playing it.
But most folks have a hard time letting go like that.
And that gets back to my big problem with this game's PvP. It just isn't well developed enough to foster more and more people to do that. It's just not gotten enough attention to draw people to trying this out and learning to let go.
It's al good playing missions and then grinding dailies, but it gets borring. STO has a great space combat and they should make good use of it in PvP.
I'm only level 27 Fed and I went several times to Kerrat. I did get defeated but not in 20 seconds like some players claim. I had great 1 on 1 fights with KDF. I don't know if KDF player was the only one there or the others left me alone cause I'm only level 27, but it was fun.
What would make me PvP more:
1. Territory control. LIke someone mentioned before we need something like Starfleet command maps so we have a reason to PvP.
2. Fleets being able to declare wars on each other and fights in instances around their bases
3. PvP balance. Maybe look into what GW2 has done and go from there.
4. Maybe even have PvP maps limited by level of your character.
I didn't hurl any insults, just pointing out the irony of your group's "success" at being so great at PvP.
I don't know if you were among any of the Pandas I've faced in the past, so nothing directed at you, personally. I have not done any open PvP in probably a year. But back when I did, even with fleetmates on Vent we could not beat your squad of uber-leetness. You guys are good, no doubt about it. And you make sure everyone knows it, too.
So again, I say: Bravo. You asked why people don't PvP. Groups like Sad Pandas are the reason.
I'm taking a month or 2 off from pvp to work on leveling my Romulan and rep, maybe longer if pvp doesn't spark my interest after that. What would bring me back to PVP now?
Like others said, a random, no premade queue. I would also like it to be mixed faction.
While I am in a fleet that fields premades and have participated on occaison, I find it pretty boring compared to when I go to kerrat or queue for cap and hold, especially FvK.
Premade arena has only 3 or 4 ships and builds you see all the time, while you see alll types of ships in kerrat and pugs. Way too much sci ships and sci captains to fight, not enough cruisers and escorts, which I enjoy fighting much more. Being subnucced like 10 times in a match isn't fun either, even if your team clears it, you still lost GDF or APA and have to do without it for a few minutes, not fun at all, and I get subnucced way more in premade arena then anywhere else.
While I like cap and hold and kerrat, I would want to be able to queue for arena on my own and not worry about having to go against premade with 3 sci. I would come back to pvp now for this.
Queues will be more active when new players are able to pvp without getting stomped by premade all the time so they actually have a chance to learn instead of just giving up.
In PvP you compete with other players. If other players get better equippment, your chances dwindle. If you take your time with progression, you loose. Also people start to build specifically to exploit weaknesses of famous builds which starts a circle of respeccing.
This breeds a mindset, i don't like. I don't want to compete with other gamers with more time or more money or closer circles of friends for premades and otherwise loose the game.
Well said satinavian. Echoes my feelings exactly.
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::WARNING:: This game is not intended for use as a source of self-esteem.
- If I thought I wasnt going to get my TRIBBLE kicked by a premade that had 5 Eject Warp Plasma/Vent Theta radiation spammers that I couldnt see because the game client cant render them properly.
- It people didnt have silly 'rules' tailored to their metagame. (nothing that requires Engineering team to clear, or disrupts our cooldown cycles for team spikes, etc)
- Balanced Que System that wouldnt launch a 5 Tac vs 3sci 2tac, or a sci vs eng match ETC
- If skills were balanced in a way that stacking 5x certain things (plasma clouds/acetons/danubes/etc) didnt spell death by cheeze.
- if I thought more then 1% of the STO population played. - PVP is a small, tight community... a little too tight. Same names, same winners, same losers.
I would PvP if the game was set up like SFC was (Starfleet Command) The PvP mechanics in that game were based board game called Starfleet Battles. You had to agree on a battle point value before the match and players selected what they could get based on those points.
The BPV would pretty much determine ship, era, weaponry etc... it was balanced and it was challenging and fun. instead of each type of technology essentially doing identical damage each race had different perks and different challenges... Disruptors had to close distance as did plasma... the cloak was essential for romulans... photon and proximity torpedoes was an art to learn.
I'm a fairly neurotic gamer... but still... ill never rival the money spent to get where I would need to be to be a contender and that is sad... because it really shouldn't be about that... it should be about skills and tactics.
MMOs aren't a genre of game I enjoy PvP in. In basically all MMOs, power is gained through spending time leveling and then gathering stronger gear, which means that people who spend more time playing are stronger in PvP. Just because it's occasionally possible to beat people in better gear by having superior skill doesn't mean that's a good or enjoyable design.
How about this idea?
Make a separate PvP server with PvP everywhere or almost everywhere.
no separate PvP maps. Factions fight to control space sectors or planets or space stations.
In my opinion, Planetside 2 has the best MMO PvP. But usually, I play single player or co-op games. Only reason I am considering PvP in STO is because I am running out of PvE activities. If STO had more more PvE, I would not care much about PvP. Need to remind myself to check out foundry missions.
I've never liked any form of PvP. Even way back when I was a kid playing Perfect Dark with my friends, I'd much rather be on a team with them taking on DarkSims than shooting at each other. Being on a team, working toward a common goal that isn't necessarily shoot thing A with gun B, and being rewarded for contributing to the group's success appeals to me much more than competing against other people for (real or imagined) personal gain/glory.
What would bring me into PVP? Oh I don't know...the ability to deliver a strong electric shock to any excessive smack talkers? Say about 50kv? No less than 30kv though.
I rarely PVP so perhaps this is not the place were I should be posting.
But as to what would bring me into PVP. I will add a "more" to this question and give my tuppence worth.
1. If PVP was separate in some way from PVE especially in balance issues
for example we can still bring our ships and shinys but ships have extra hull or shield mods in pvp to make the battles longer and more tactically intresting.
And have the added effect of not nerfing either play type as much and making all types of ships matter more to the PVP match.
2. Have a PVP reputation system with no dilithium or resources needed just pure PVP xp giving passive boosts to ships in PVP only as a reward for their playing along with the standard game rewards equal to PVE gameplay for time/play.
Added to this a filter which sorts people who PVP into matches against similair experienced PVPers via the PVP rep system advancement experience.
3. Have all basic pvp pug only.
Before you all flame lol there should also be a team PVP que for all those elite teams and fleet teams.
and those solo PVPers who want to take on the hard core players can also que here.
4. A league table based on PVPers performance both solo and team as qudos does matter :-)
The above may go some way to making PVP more palatable for many casual players.
Now the big one.
A STO PVP war shard a large sector block with various systems for players to fight over territory control.
Each system has various dynamically changing objectives to secure, heal, protect, destroy. (Both space and ground)
Which confer bonuses to each as the battles rage.
Along with natural dangers and helpfull anomalys and npc vessels defences etc for padding.
Each sector can only support 70 players.
Bring your ships over from holodeck with all their whistles and bells. "Balance there is no balance just Battles"
max of 35 a side per instance each instance adds to an overall faction control report window showing the status in other instances so players/teams can warp in as reinforcements if needed in another instance.
The battle for that system will rage for 30 mins and control will fall to who has the most points over that period.
Players can jump in and out as they wish.
Control of systems give actual resources to that side these resources are different in various systems and allow PVP players to repairships add improvements and craft PVP items buy consumables in relation to their own personnel PVP scores from the resources available through their PVP rep system.
Time played in the PVP war shard also rewards players with the equivelent standard rewards for the time as if they had been playing on holodeck so advancements in any holodeck system need not suffer.
Well I could go on for ages but no doubt I have bored many of you far to much already.
I will start playing more pvp's when others stop cheating and using macro and other programs that make TRIBBLE players good!!! I use my wits and my own skill and have great pvp's with like minded players but for most players who pvp they use programs to help them out and so i dont do it as much as i would like and i know quite a lot of players who stay away just as much as me because of all the pvp cheats. I can't see anything changing any time soon so you wont see as many players doing it as say a team stf or fleet mission. I mean i would feel like a unworthy TRIBBLE player if i ever needed anything like that to rely on and criptic should ban anyone who uses them programs as wel no questions askedl!!!!!
Bunk, sir. Hokum. You say teamwork is important? I'll grant you it is. That doesn't obviate the fact that the guy who's got the other accrued advantages STILL HAS THOSE ADVANTAGES. Saying that great gear without teamwork or skill won't beat poor gear with teamwork and skill is a false equivalence: Teamwork and skill are freely available to anyone, and the guys who have been grinding away for years will have it in abundance. In addition to the better ships, weapons and consoles that they've collected over their long hours of play.
I respectfully disagree with you on some points. I have played against teams with alot of pay 2 win consoles like temporal inversion field, theta radiation, grav pulse, ams etc, and I have been on teams with pugs that have beaten them. While you may be correct in assuming those who have acquired the best gear have been playing for a long time and honing their skills, I doubt that is the case in all of them. In fact I'd wager half of those players you face just outright bought it trying to take the fast track to victory. And if you do run up against a team with the gear and the skill and the teamwork, so be it. If you don't carry a defeatist attitude, you can actually fight superior players and learn a few things that will ultimately help you to be a better player who eventually can beat those guys that just rely on those superior consoles to bring them victory.
One of the things that irritates me when I am in a pug match against an obvious premade, especially one using superior consoles and ships, is when the whole team just wants to lay down and die rather than trying to rally under some form of leadership, working together to try to crack the other teams armor. If nothing else, learning how to counter some of these abilities and tactics, or learning which targets are soft and which ones to avoid wasting precious alpha fire and nukes on,or how to confuse the enemies healing. It doesn't matter what the enemy brings, there is always something to be learned in victory or defeat. The only time you don't learn is when you say 'eff it' and either turn into a degenerate group of Mavericks going after your own glory, give up and let the enemy destroy you so you can get your dil and move on, or worst of all, rage quitting but not before making sure zone chat gets a piece of your mind.
I actually play a lot of PvP in STO. What I would like to really see is a Nebula pvp war zone where players could see each other, but only be able to target each other at random non static screen intervals. These intervals would be random per player, not per faction or side.
If you look at the effects of Scatter Sensors or AMS, you can still see just fine, but your target ability is all jacked up. Make me a zone that does this at random to each player. Maybe put some Tholians in the middle of the zone for the actual objective. (like kerrat).
There is a reason by Wrath of Khan's space fight was so captivating..:cool:
You know Cryptic has Jumped the Proverbial Shark when they introduced Tractor Pulling to Star Trek Online!
I will start playing more pvp's when others stop cheating and using macro and other programs that make TRIBBLE players good!!! I use my wits and my own skill and have great pvp's with like minded players but for most players who pvp they use programs to help them out and so i dont do it as much as i would like and i know quite a lot of players who stay away just as much as me because of all the pvp cheats. I can't see anything changing any time soon so you wont see as many players doing it as say a team stf or fleet mission. I mean i would feel like a unworthy TRIBBLE player if i ever needed anything like that to rely on and criptic should ban anyone who uses them programs as wel no questions askedl!!!!!
I'd be interested in knowing exactly what kind of cheating you are referring. The only program that I know of that could possible give a benefit is the one that reads your combat log and provides the information the game is already giving you is a clearer format. I don't use it because I hate clutter, but I wouldn't call it a cheat if someone did.
Macros? You realize that Macros are part of the games engine design right? They are meant to be there.
Reading your post, I am inclined to believe that you simply don't know the IN's and OUT's of STO the way most PvP STO players know them.
You know Cryptic has Jumped the Proverbial Shark when they introduced Tractor Pulling to Star Trek Online!
Trust me theres cheats out there and pvp can never be fair when things like that are being used. If you have done alot of pvp you should know that already. Thats my opinion not the masses and thats what keeps me away. If it was cheat free i and most of my fleet and friends would play pvp on a daily basis.
Comments
Mostly, to be blunt, other PvPers. While I acknowledge they're only part of the crowd, I can't tolerate the extreme "I play to win, period" players who are all about every last bit of damage and how "elite" they are. So, I simply avoid them and save everyone the headache.
-shrug-
That's easy: nothing.
Candy. Lots of candy.
No reward for the effort. There used to be reward. When I started this game, the best shield and debatably the best deflector came from PvP. So I engaged in PvP to earn them.
Well I do PvP a bit these days. Mostly ground. The thing is, it's not fun like it used to be. Space PvP especially is just stagnant. There's been no development. No real evolution. And they've taken more away from the game than added to it.
PvP in this game is a real stinker.
Even LOTRO's PvP, with it's much maligned Monster Play is more engaging than this game's PvP.
So now you're stuck. Do you put resources toward it? I don't think the devs have the green light to do so. And I'm not sure Cryptic really has a plan on how to improve it. And what plans/whiteboard stuff they do have is probably way out of touch with the players.
I'm also not convinced MMOs as a framework make for great PvP to begin with. I just keep thinking how can anything compare to the Left4Dead 2 stuff or Team Fortress 2, which are extremely simple in terms of mechanics and yet still are far more streamlined for player versus player interaction.
I don't know. Not real sure PvP has much hope to improve. But I'm sure they'll try with a rep system and rewards. That's the MMO way of doing things. Throw a grind with carrots at it.
It's interesting that many the players in this thread keep talking about how PvPers are immature, or mean, or whatever other insults people feel free to hurl exactly that at other players.
Your post is among them.
Isn't it a touch ironic that you all have so much hatred and vitriol for other players who PvP and express that by clearly being exactly what it is you describe you despise?
I'm curious gfreeman, when did I insult you to deserve such a reply?
Great post.
Really, I used to PVP in a game called "Red Baron 3d". It's a WWI flight simulator. The situation was that each player could choose an aircraft depending on what side he was flying for. The players knew the strength and weakness of each aircraft. Some could climb well, some maneuver well. Some had one gun while others had two. Some were fast, others slow.
The thing was that no matter which aircraft you picked, it was the same aircraft for everyone. Then it came down to skill (and maybe how good your computer equipment was). You couldn't change the plane in-game. It was coded, and you might have a favorite aircraft that you loved to fly, but it was never better than another of the same kind.
So here's how I would come back into PVP. Make PVP ships. Make a standard model for all. This might mean one side would all fly the same make and model ship, but that would mean it was the best. Of course, the opposite side might do the same thing. It might be boring. It might not.
But I saw guys take some of the mediocre aircraft, learn their strengths and weaknesses and do amazing things with them.
Do I think this will happen? Not on your life! PVP is too much of an ego trip for players.
Guess I'll never PVP in this game. Perhaps I could interest you in a one on one in a flight simulator?
We don't need mages in STO and Sci ships are Light Cruiser Escorts with built in BO Powers.
Great post! Friend me in game, I'll PVP with you anytime (except when I'm doing PVE with the wife). My handle is @Turkz.
Bunk, sir. Hokum. You say teamwork is important? I'll grant you it is. That doesn't obviate the fact that the guy who's got the other accrued advantages STILL HAS THOSE ADVANTAGES. Saying that great gear without teamwork or skill won't beat poor gear with teamwork and skill is a false equivalence: Teamwork and skill are freely available to anyone, and the guys who have been grinding away for years will have it in abundance. In addition to the better ships, weapons and consoles that they've collected over their long hours of play.
Completely separate server or shard that you zone into or copy over to.
That server to have complete access to all powers, ships, weapons, item sets which also includes all lockbox items from past and future.
Everyone apart from skill points would then be on even footing, and pvp would be down to your own build and skill.
That would make it fair for every single person. There would not be the haves and the have nots.
I've always been pretty laid back about this particular facet of the PvP "experience."
Granted I myself have fallen into the "but you like PvE so you must suck" trollbait from time to time. Mostly I try to ignore it (and lately I've been baited for doing just that, ignoring it, with some folks aggressively asking me why I keep ignoring what they're saying, not realizing that I'm doing them a favor by not engaging in this no win discussion).
But here's the thing that I think we always lose sight of. And it's a lesson I learned playing Magic the Gathering ages ago.
People are ATTACHED to their characters. They're an extension of them. They put time, effort and creativity into them. They lose their minds when that character is SNUFFED OUT in a PvP match. It's like they die.
I get that. And I fully understand why people get very thin skinned in situations like that. In Magic, a lot of new players get attached to their creatures. They think they are an extension of them and their deck. They forget that the creatures are just one kind of spell. You play your creature, and I use a counter spell to counter it, it's just us trading spells. People used to LOATHE counter spells because of that. I get it. But once you learned that the creature was just another resouce at your disposal, you became a better Magic player. I know I learned how to beat control decks by grasping that. You WANT that counter spell drawn out. You want to force the control player to react.
In PvP, the only real impact your character's death has on the match is you might be one of the 15 kills they need. It's NOT personal. Don't take it personal. In Kerat it's not even an issue there. You die, you respawn. You go go go.
But I get it. People feel like a part of them has been destroyed and insulted. It's just how that goes.
I could care less. Spawn camping is a bit of a **** move, but I learned ages ago how to avoid that in other games. Just switch characters for a sec. Or if your guild is on, get reinforcements, and things escalate and before you knew it, Tarren Mill was GAME ON!
But anyways, what I'm trying to say in the wordiest way possible is ... people get all kinds of irrational when they die repeatedly in PvP. They need to disassociate from that. And realize it's just like if the ghosts caught you in Pac-Man. A sec or two later, you're back in action and nothing changed. It's no reflection on you as a player. Everyone dies in PvP. Everyone. It's the whole point. To kill each other.
Once you lessen your death grip on your character staying alive, you then start to poke your head up and learn to have fun playing it.
But most folks have a hard time letting go like that.
And that gets back to my big problem with this game's PvP. It just isn't well developed enough to foster more and more people to do that. It's just not gotten enough attention to draw people to trying this out and learning to let go.
It's al good playing missions and then grinding dailies, but it gets borring. STO has a great space combat and they should make good use of it in PvP.
I'm only level 27 Fed and I went several times to Kerrat. I did get defeated but not in 20 seconds like some players claim. I had great 1 on 1 fights with KDF. I don't know if KDF player was the only one there or the others left me alone cause I'm only level 27, but it was fun.
What would make me PvP more:
1. Territory control. LIke someone mentioned before we need something like Starfleet command maps so we have a reason to PvP.
2. Fleets being able to declare wars on each other and fights in instances around their bases
3. PvP balance. Maybe look into what GW2 has done and go from there.
4. Maybe even have PvP maps limited by level of your character.
I don't know if you were among any of the Pandas I've faced in the past, so nothing directed at you, personally. I have not done any open PvP in probably a year. But back when I did, even with fleetmates on Vent we could not beat your squad of uber-leetness. You guys are good, no doubt about it. And you make sure everyone knows it, too.
So again, I say: Bravo. You asked why people don't PvP. Groups like Sad Pandas are the reason.
Like others said, a random, no premade queue. I would also like it to be mixed faction.
While I am in a fleet that fields premades and have participated on occaison, I find it pretty boring compared to when I go to kerrat or queue for cap and hold, especially FvK.
Premade arena has only 3 or 4 ships and builds you see all the time, while you see alll types of ships in kerrat and pugs. Way too much sci ships and sci captains to fight, not enough cruisers and escorts, which I enjoy fighting much more. Being subnucced like 10 times in a match isn't fun either, even if your team clears it, you still lost GDF or APA and have to do without it for a few minutes, not fun at all, and I get subnucced way more in premade arena then anywhere else.
While I like cap and hold and kerrat, I would want to be able to queue for arena on my own and not worry about having to go against premade with 3 sci. I would come back to pvp now for this.
Queues will be more active when new players are able to pvp without getting stomped by premade all the time so they actually have a chance to learn instead of just giving up.
::WARNING:: This game is not intended for use as a source of self-esteem.
- If I thought I wasnt going to get my TRIBBLE kicked by a premade that had 5 Eject Warp Plasma/Vent Theta radiation spammers that I couldnt see because the game client cant render them properly.
- It people didnt have silly 'rules' tailored to their metagame. (nothing that requires Engineering team to clear, or disrupts our cooldown cycles for team spikes, etc)
- Balanced Que System that wouldnt launch a 5 Tac vs 3sci 2tac, or a sci vs eng match ETC
- If skills were balanced in a way that stacking 5x certain things (plasma clouds/acetons/danubes/etc) didnt spell death by cheeze.
- if I thought more then 1% of the STO population played. - PVP is a small, tight community... a little too tight. Same names, same winners, same losers.
The BPV would pretty much determine ship, era, weaponry etc... it was balanced and it was challenging and fun. instead of each type of technology essentially doing identical damage each race had different perks and different challenges... Disruptors had to close distance as did plasma... the cloak was essential for romulans... photon and proximity torpedoes was an art to learn.
I'm a fairly neurotic gamer... but still... ill never rival the money spent to get where I would need to be to be a contender and that is sad... because it really shouldn't be about that... it should be about skills and tactics.
Make a separate PvP server with PvP everywhere or almost everywhere.
no separate PvP maps. Factions fight to control space sectors or planets or space stations.
In my opinion, Planetside 2 has the best MMO PvP. But usually, I play single player or co-op games. Only reason I am considering PvP in STO is because I am running out of PvE activities. If STO had more more PvE, I would not care much about PvP. Need to remind myself to check out foundry missions.
Why? Because the difference in top geared toons vs anything else is ridiculous.
PvP should be based on skill and pilot ability, not what gear you have.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
an attack hell shuttle tho loaded to the brim wit hwapons all over the place
and i use a "timne freigher" sometimes as well which is the friehgter with the temporal set
standard ships are d'kora and the golf ball fleet scince retro with the ferngi set
i am like pvp superior man or somethng
and i sugfgest green equipment is almost as good so don;t worry to much aabout it
mask and photonic - thats the key
for the supeiror
I rarely PVP so perhaps this is not the place were I should be posting.
But as to what would bring me into PVP. I will add a "more" to this question and give my tuppence worth.
1. If PVP was separate in some way from PVE especially in balance issues
for example we can still bring our ships and shinys but ships have extra hull or shield mods in pvp to make the battles longer and more tactically intresting.
And have the added effect of not nerfing either play type as much and making all types of ships matter more to the PVP match.
2. Have a PVP reputation system with no dilithium or resources needed just pure PVP xp giving passive boosts to ships in PVP only as a reward for their playing along with the standard game rewards equal to PVE gameplay for time/play.
Added to this a filter which sorts people who PVP into matches against similair experienced PVPers via the PVP rep system advancement experience.
3. Have all basic pvp pug only.
Before you all flame lol there should also be a team PVP que for all those elite teams and fleet teams.
and those solo PVPers who want to take on the hard core players can also que here.
4. A league table based on PVPers performance both solo and team as qudos does matter :-)
The above may go some way to making PVP more palatable for many casual players.
Now the big one.
A STO PVP war shard a large sector block with various systems for players to fight over territory control.
Each system has various dynamically changing objectives to secure, heal, protect, destroy. (Both space and ground)
Which confer bonuses to each as the battles rage.
Along with natural dangers and helpfull anomalys and npc vessels defences etc for padding.
Each sector can only support 70 players.
Bring your ships over from holodeck with all their whistles and bells. "Balance there is no balance just Battles"
max of 35 a side per instance each instance adds to an overall faction control report window showing the status in other instances so players/teams can warp in as reinforcements if needed in another instance.
The battle for that system will rage for 30 mins and control will fall to who has the most points over that period.
Players can jump in and out as they wish.
Control of systems give actual resources to that side these resources are different in various systems and allow PVP players to repairships add improvements and craft PVP items buy consumables in relation to their own personnel PVP scores from the resources available through their PVP rep system.
Time played in the PVP war shard also rewards players with the equivelent standard rewards for the time as if they had been playing on holodeck so advancements in any holodeck system need not suffer.
Well I could go on for ages but no doubt I have bored many of you far to much already.
Have fun all what ever you play.
I respectfully disagree with you on some points. I have played against teams with alot of pay 2 win consoles like temporal inversion field, theta radiation, grav pulse, ams etc, and I have been on teams with pugs that have beaten them. While you may be correct in assuming those who have acquired the best gear have been playing for a long time and honing their skills, I doubt that is the case in all of them. In fact I'd wager half of those players you face just outright bought it trying to take the fast track to victory. And if you do run up against a team with the gear and the skill and the teamwork, so be it. If you don't carry a defeatist attitude, you can actually fight superior players and learn a few things that will ultimately help you to be a better player who eventually can beat those guys that just rely on those superior consoles to bring them victory.
One of the things that irritates me when I am in a pug match against an obvious premade, especially one using superior consoles and ships, is when the whole team just wants to lay down and die rather than trying to rally under some form of leadership, working together to try to crack the other teams armor. If nothing else, learning how to counter some of these abilities and tactics, or learning which targets are soft and which ones to avoid wasting precious alpha fire and nukes on,or how to confuse the enemies healing. It doesn't matter what the enemy brings, there is always something to be learned in victory or defeat. The only time you don't learn is when you say 'eff it' and either turn into a degenerate group of Mavericks going after your own glory, give up and let the enemy destroy you so you can get your dil and move on, or worst of all, rage quitting but not before making sure zone chat gets a piece of your mind.
If you look at the effects of Scatter Sensors or AMS, you can still see just fine, but your target ability is all jacked up. Make me a zone that does this at random to each player. Maybe put some Tholians in the middle of the zone for the actual objective. (like kerrat).
There is a reason by Wrath of Khan's space fight was so captivating..:cool:
I would participate alot more if the rewards for doing it were better thought.
And we really need more maps.
I'd be interested in knowing exactly what kind of cheating you are referring. The only program that I know of that could possible give a benefit is the one that reads your combat log and provides the information the game is already giving you is a clearer format. I don't use it because I hate clutter, but I wouldn't call it a cheat if someone did.
Macros? You realize that Macros are part of the games engine design right? They are meant to be there.
Reading your post, I am inclined to believe that you simply don't know the IN's and OUT's of STO the way most PvP STO players know them.