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Go Down Fighting Nerf?!

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  • projectfrontierprojectfrontier Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    GDF is now supposed to work as intended, was given a resistance buff, has a trait associated with it that at least doubles the buff's total capacity, and people are complaining about it.

    How many of those people were responsible for the EPtS nerf?
  • edna#7310 edna Member Posts: 21 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    GDF is now supposed to work as intended, was given a resistance buff, has a trait associated with it that at least doubles the buff's total capacity, and people are complaining about it.

    How many of those people were responsible for the EPtS nerf?

    its clealy not supposed to be blocked and I already reported this bug and Ill report it again till it gets fixed.
  • cletusdeadmancletusdeadman Member Posts: 248 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    GDF is now supposed to work as intended, was given a resistance buff, has a trait associated with it that at least doubles the buff's total capacity, and people are complaining about it.

    Yes, and now I would like to see some of this 'prosperity' rubbed all over the other classes just to be fair. Let's just give each one a trait boost, resistance buff, and then restrict them from using it until their shields are down and half their hull is gone.
  • stirling191stirling191 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    yargomesh wrote: »
    We agree that there was a change. Whether it was asked for is conjecture, whether it was needed isn't our decision.

    Find me a Tac that asked for a resistence boost for GDF. Go ahead, I'll wait.
    yargomesh wrote: »
    I comprehend it quite clearly.
    In the case of GDF, if you can't use it because you don't go below 50% health and you succeed at what you're doing, then it had nothing to do with your success.
    If you can't use it because you took more than 50% of your health in damage before you could react to use it then it had nothing to do with your death.

    For someone who claims to understand a point, you're doing a terrible job applying that understanding.
    yargomesh wrote: »
    They both achieve the same thing, they prevent you from activating the ability whenever you want. The only difference is when they are in effect.

    Good luck advocating that every single STO ability be placed behind a health gate.
    yargomesh wrote: »
    Buffing and Nerfing an ability is part of redesigning it, if it gains increased functionality then it is logical to increase the restrictions on it. We no longer have the unbuffed version, though we could get it back.

    You really need to stop basing an argument on "well, we absurdly tweaked a power, then absurdly gated it so everything is equal, and nothing has changed".
    yargomesh wrote: »
    This is incorrect, I specifically mentioned in the case of Ramming Speed and Mine laying that those were changed to prevent griefing.

    Stacking abilities is giving yourself an advantage, an advantage that may be undesirable to the game at large.

    So you're now going to advocate that ability's can't be stacked? For someone who in a later paragraph argues that ability stacking shouldn't be limited, that's hilarious.
    yargomesh wrote: »
    Using an ability 'smartly' and 'abusing' an ability can be similar. Some players will abuse systems to get the most advantage out of them. This is a statistical fact.

    And we're right back to "using powers in a way I don't like them to be used is griefing".
    yargomesh wrote: »
    No but I'd love it if they get buffed.

    So then, if GDF is in the equivalent realm of Ramming Speed and Abandon Ship, abilities which you are saying do not need to be health gated, why then does GDF need to be health gated?

    Or are you just going to once again ignore the comparisons you inadvertently make when they contradict your stance defending a restriction put in place solely because of a change that shouldn't have been made in the first place?
  • heresincebetaheresincebeta Member Posts: 163 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    ITT: OP power gets nerfed; cookiecutter tacscort pilots have trouble adapting.
  • abyssinainabyssinain Member Posts: 98 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Oh no, now tacscorts will only alpha with 999998k damage instead of 999999k :(

    If I weren't on my phone I'd repurpose my klingon tears image for a new source of tears.
  • bpharmabpharma Member Posts: 2,022
    edited May 2013
    lol. It is now working as intended. I only started playing this game when it went F2P and even then I remember it was a MASSIVE damage boost but could only be used when I was lower than 50% health.

    Once again it is not a nerf as that is how it was supposed to work. EPtX abilities were made to work differently to original intentions. After much feedback from the community and sourced evidence from previous devs it was reverted to allow for constant uptime.

    Personally I'd like them to fix photonic fleet as half the time they appear, pick a target too far away (even though they are 5km away from another) and then disappear. If they were a little bit (not exactly as it would be OP) more like the nimbus distress call then I think science captains would be set.

    It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
    A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.

    Has damage got out of control?
    This is the last thing I will post.
  • yargomeshyargomesh Member Posts: 179 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Find me a Tac that asked for a resistence boost for GDF. Go ahead, I'll wait.
    Doesn't matter if they wanted a change. A change happened.
    You really need to stop basing an argument on "well, we absurdly tweaked a power, then absurdly gated it so everything is equal, and nothing has changed".
    Fact: GDF was changed.
    My argument is that GDF is stronger than it was despite being gated and that it is balanced. 'Balanced' in this case does not mean equal.
    You have yet to refute my argument.
    So you're now going to advocate that ability's can't be stacked?
    The only thing I'm advocating is that the change to GDF could have been done better and that people should improve their arguments against it if they really want to change it.

    Abilities and how they interact with one another are core to the game mechanics. Game mechanics are engineered.
    And we're right back to "using powers in a way I don't like them to be used is griefing".
    Who's the 'I' in that statement? It's certainly not me.
    So then, if GDF is in the equivalent realm of Ramming Speed and Abandon Ship, abilities which you are saying do not need to be health gated, why then does GDF need to be health gated?
    Ramming Speed might not need to be health gated but Abandon Ship certainly does.
    And really, GDF is only equivalent to those two because it shares the health gate. Otherwise it completely blows them out of the water.

    I don't know why GDF needs to be health gated. I can guess and deduce why but my information certainly isn't factual.
    Or are you just going to once again ignore the comparisons you inadvertently make when they contradict your stance defending a restriction put in place solely because of a change that shouldn't have been made in the first place?
    I'm not ignoring the comparisons. They share an additional restriction and they all have some measure of worth or a mechanic that can justify that restriction.
    Whether that measure of worth justifies the restriction is what we need to find out.
  • canisanubiscanisanubis Member Posts: 187 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Look, this is a NERF. Get over it. Tactical captains: You may find that in order to nerf tactical captains, the developers will occasionally nerf abilities that tactical captains have. Science and Engineering captains: Shut up and stop telling the TACs that these nerfs are buffs. They're nerfs.

    So, if your tactics previously relied in stacking for maximum damage and only worrying about being blown up on your target's warp core breach, you're going to have to modify your build and playstyle. Don't complain, adapt. Engineering and Science captains have been making do with considerably less offensive output that Tacs have been putting out, even in escorts, for some time.
  • edna#7310 edna Member Posts: 21 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    ITT: OP power gets nerfed; cookiecutter tacscort pilots have trouble adapting.


    A power removed ...or one less power is not a nerf its a bug.
    If you;d stop QQing all over the place you would see some people use cruiers or sci ships for their tac captain.
    abyssinain wrote: »
    Oh no, now tacscorts will only alpha with 999998k damage instead of 999999k :(

    If I weren't on my phone I'd repurpose my klingon tears image for a new source of tears.

    No wonder you PvE heroes rage quit first time you enter in arena when your supper dupper borg killing junk gets stomped by a sci...healer.
  • fishworshipper1fishworshipper1 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Seriously guys, quit complaining and actually post useful suggestions.
    This is just sad.
  • edna#7310 edna Member Posts: 21 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Seriously guys, quit complaining and actually post useful suggestions.
    This is just sad.

    if they would have wanted to nerf GDF they would have removed the 25% bonus at 100% hull and would make it give 1% damage at 99% and so on...leaving the power there to be able to use it when you want...like the other 2 classes have.
  • sololionman65sololionman65 Member Posts: 9 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    saxfire wrote: »
    I would call this a buff, not a nerf, with newest change you are restricted into getting approx 50% dmg boost from GDF at ALL TIMES! this is certainly a buff and addition to the dmg resistance it also aplies, another buff. I never used GDF above 50% hull, actually i used it from between 10% to 40% based on shield strength and rsp availibility. and also, i can stop fae plaming on the fools trying to do any dmg with 90%+ hull with GDF so it also makes beter players and it will improve overall dps and allow more people to join the strategy of the best players.

    While you're waiting 5-10x as long to use it, I'm using it 5-10x more often -- because if you're not using it until you have 10-40% of your hull left, you're barely using it at all.

    Unless, of course, you're doing solo missions, in which case your ship is in no real danger by allowing your HP to go down so low and dying isn't at any issue, because you don't face a large res timer.

    In Elite STFs and PVP, on the other hand, Go Down Fighting has just become Go Down Fast for anyone using a escort, because anyone who sticks around to use it instead of getting to safety, that's exactly what's going to happen.

    For the seconds of extra damage you may get, you're going to face minutes of doing no damage at all in elite STFs and PVP situations -- making Go Down Fighting about as useful as that little button you can accidentally press (if you forgot to take it off your hotkeys) that makes your ship go kaboom.
  • brokenmirror2012brokenmirror2012 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Its not a nerf its a dumbing down.

    Cryptic just said.
    Your using going down fighting to early, idiot, Now try again when its better.

    Soon MW
    MW will heal to much now idiot, wait until the heal works. Idiot.

    Next Subnuke
    YOur target doesn't have enough buffs, Idiot, use it when ur target has more buffs.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • cletusdeadmancletusdeadman Member Posts: 248 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I was finally able to get on today, so I decided to see what it takes to use this skill.
    I had to slow down to loose my defense bonus until my hull was a 50% just to activate.

    If I wasn't sure before I am definitely sure now, the other classes need to have the 50% hull to activate nerf, I mean Captain power, as well.

    This is best example I have seen of exceptionally poor game design yet.


    Thanks Cryptic!
  • abyssinainabyssinain Member Posts: 98 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    adrianm63 wrote: »
    A power removed ...or one less power is not a nerf its a bug.
    If you;d stop QQing all over the place you would see some people use cruiers or sci ships for their tac captain.



    No wonder you PvE heroes rage quit first time you enter in arena when your supper dupper borg killing junk gets stomped by a sci...healer.

    Cool, so disagreeing that this is the worst thing ever and now tacs are useless unless all the other classes get nerfed harder than they already have, automatically makes me a 'PvE hero that dies to Sci healers.'

    You are correct that I don't spend all of my time min-maxing and yelling at people, but a lot of people don't, are you saying everyone that doesn't agree with your obviously superior opinion is also a 'PvE hero'? What does that even mean?

    I'm sorry I'm not some super pro PvPer but from what I've seen this won't phase tacs in the slightest, all it does is set you back a few steps in your quest to min-max and yell at people.
  • stirling191stirling191 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    abyssinain wrote: »
    Cool, so disagreeing that this is the worst thing ever and now tacs are useless unless all the other classes get nerfed harder than they already have, automatically makes me a 'PvE hero that dies to Sci healers.'

    You are correct that I don't spend all of my time min-maxing and yelling at people, but a lot of people don't, are you saying everyone that doesn't agree with your obviously superior opinion is also a 'PvE hero'? What does that even mean?

    I'm sorry I'm not some super pro PvPer but from what I've seen this won't phase tacs in the slightest, all it does is set you back a few steps in your quest to min-max and yell at people.

    Hyperbole didn't help you the first time, and it's not helping you now.

    The issue at hand isn't whether or not things can get done. 95% of the content in STO can be completed with simple auto-attack and shield redistribution. The issue is the fundamental reshaping of an ability in such a way that it effectively cannot be used.
  • ussultimatumussultimatum Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Seriously guys, quit complaining and actually post useful suggestions.
    This is just sad.

    From what I can gather, the devs don't actually want suggestions.

    Feedback is sometimes, and sometimes not, useful for them.


    So I try to provide feedback, but I try not to propose solutions.

    The issue at hand isn't whether or not things can get done. 95% of the content in STO can be completed with simple auto-attack and shield redistribution. The issue is the fundamental reshaping of an ability in such a way that it effectively cannot be used.


    Quoted, because honestly this part of the conversation is completely lost of the majority of posters/players.
  • elvnswordselvnswords Member Posts: 184 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    nicha0 wrote: »
    It is a bad change because the reality of the game is different than theory.

    In PvE a single borg torpedo does more damage than 100% of most escorts hull. If your shields are down, you die, your can get lucky with a partially absorbed torp and maybe down to 50%, but thats just luck.

    In PvP a single subnuc can end you in a second, you can't react.

    To me it is non-sense to have one captain type's abilities locked behind conditions where others aren't.



    This...

    Don't attack one type of player class without doing the same to the others...
  • superherofansuperherofan Member Posts: 342 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    The power is pretty much useless now. It should be upped to 75% or rescaled for 100%. I'm pretty much about to die in a STF if I'm below 50%.
  • kingdoxykingdoxy Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    yeah, its pretty much garbage now. once your 50% the power isn't going to magicly help you live once you've pulled Agro from one of the large enemies in an STF.
  • breadandcircusesbreadandcircuses Member Posts: 2,355 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Okay, so I'll put this right up front: I have two characters, a Fed Engi and a KDF Sci. I have not made my RR Tac as I am working on a project that requires that character slot. I would have purchased more, but the new 100 attachment limit is apparently per account, so penalizes me for buying extra character slots. But I digress...

    From what I can see looking through the design of the current iteration of GDF, its 50% hull requirement leaves your standard escort at a severe disadvantage. Most Tac captains tend to have great spike potential, but are less capable of weathering directed fire without support; this is because the ships they fly are intended for that role. Escorts, especially niche variants like the Kumari, are left extremely vulnerable getting down to 50%; even worse, to get that low you have to have teammates that are not supporting you with heals/buffs like Extend Shields, Auxiliary to Structural Integrity, Science Fleet or Engineering Fleet.

    I think the main issue with the change to GDF is that it is detrimental to Tac captains flying their "intended" ship class. If the same Tac is flying a Cruiser or Carrier, GDF can actually be viable; the higher base hull and more heal-friendly boff seating makes it easier to get to 50% without seeing the lovely little Respawn button. Even a battlecruiser becomes a bit more practical, as it usually allows for a bit more Neutronium, base hull and healing than the average Escort.

    Personally, I would favor removing the lockout and allowing the Tac captains to use the power whenever they liked; instead, have the power determine its effect for the whole duration at the time it's activated, based on current health percentage. My guess is that having the system check current health for every shot fired and hit received was considered unnecessarily cumbersome, and therefore was the reason for the lack of a health-based variable buff on the current version.

    As a side note, I don't see why any power should be health gated. It takes a certain kind of cleverness to wait until half the ship is venting atmosphere before requesting Fleet Support. Even Abandon Ship was used by several Starfleet captains to clear boarding parties and intruders now and again. Of course, they also had the ability to cancel it before the timer went off, so not quite in the context it's in now ;)

    But to summarize: remove the health gate on GDF, scale the bonus based on hull percentage at time of activation, and call it good. As several folks have said... it's my ship, I give the orders, and if I tell my crew to go down fighting I mean it!

    [EDIT] <deleted Orion/GDF cross-reference humor>
    Ym9x9Ji.png
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    I do not like Geko ether.
    iconians wrote: »
    With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.​​
  • ak255ak255 Member Posts: 317 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Okay, I can see why they would do it with the new trait system: they've added a trait specifically for Tac officers that give them a huge damage resistance buff when activating "Go Down Fighting". Makes sense, but I think that the 50% or lower to activate the ability should ONLY go for people who choose that trait. Like a penalty: You want extra damage resistance with "Go Down Fighting"? Then your gonna have to be almost dead in order to use it. But if you don't have it, then you can activate it at any health status.
  • tpalelenatpalelena Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    ak255 wrote: »
    Okay, I can see why they would do it with the new trait system: they've added a trait specifically for Tac officers that give them a huge damage resistance buff when activating "Go Down Fighting". Makes sense, but I think that the 50% or lower to activate the ability should ONLY go for people who choose that trait. Like a penalty: You want extra damage resistance with "Go Down Fighting"? Then your gonna have to be almost dead in order to use it. But if you don't have it, then you can activate it at any health status.

    That would be great. I could use this ability again.

    Because right now, I cant use it unless I make a very big mistake. A good Fleet Mogai refit with nice gear can just pop quantum absorption, alpha strike the elite tactical cube and laugh at its return fire.
    Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
  • twamtwam Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I don't know, having played around with a bit on my BoP's, I kind of like it. Of course, if something sneezes at a BoP it's below 50% hull, but coupled with the damage resistance trait it changes the pace of the action a bit. It favors a beta strike situation with a captain power buff generally ready for use once your boff buffs are coming off global cooldowns.

    I just have to pay more attention to when I use those heals, but the damage resistance trait definitely improves the durability of the 50%-0% stretch of hull.

    *shrug*

    Less direct damage in the first 2 seconds, though, that is true, but I believe many people were in fact calling for that.
  • tpalelenatpalelena Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    twam wrote: »
    I don't know, having played around with a bit on my BoP's, I kind of like it. Of course, if something sneezes at a BoP it's below 50% hull, but coupled with the damage resistance trait it changes the pace of the action a bit. It favors a beta strike situation with a captain power buff generally ready for use once your boff buffs are coming off global cooldowns.

    I just have to pay more attention to when I use those heals, but the damage resistance trait definitely improves the durability of the 50%-0% stretch of hull.

    *shrug*

    Less direct damage in the first 2 seconds, though, that is true, but I believe many people were in fact calling for that.

    It still makes it unusable in pve unless you get a critical invisible torpedo and dont die from it.

    Perhaps they could make the damage scale like the Andorian fury trait. It would go from 5% to 15% bonus until 50% , then resistance kicks in and the damage increases rapidly?
    Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
  • momawmomaw Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    As a non-tactical player: You tactical players are hilarious. You were abusing a power to do something that it was clearly not designed to do, i.e. improve your overwhelming alphastrike, and then complain bitterly when it's fixed. You might have a case were it not for the fact that tactical abilities on the whole get preferential treatment, with most of science being completely nonfunctional and half of engineering all sharing the same cooldown. Not a good comparison, only captain abilities count? Okay, science's subnuke beam is almost completely pointless for PVE and engineer's nadion inversion has such poor up time that it can't possibly be relied on as a defensive counter. Basically, everybody else has to deal with lemons. Deal with yours.

    As a game designer wannabe: GDF should be allowed to trigger at any time, but the buffs it gives should update dynamically second by second. So you use it just before you think you're going to get slammed, and you get the benefits of it when you do get slamed, instead of having to rely on being able to trigger it when you're already badly damaged. Basically, something like:
    * lasts for 30 seconds
    * gain Defense and Damage Resistance based on the current total health of your shield pool (shields up, no buff / shields down, gain big defense and damage resist)
    * gain Damage bonus from your missing percentage of hull points
  • tpalelenatpalelena Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    momaw wrote: »
    As a non-tactical player: You tactical players are hilarious. You were abusing a power to do something that it was clearly not designed to do, i.e. improve your overwhelming alphastrike, and then complain bitterly when it's fixed. You might have a case were it not for the fact that tactical abilities on the whole get preferential treatment, with most of science being completely nonfunctional and half of engineering all sharing the same cooldown. Not a good comparison, only captain abilities count? Okay, science's subnuke beam is almost completely pointless for PVE and engineer's nadion inversion has such poor up time that it can't possibly be relied on as a defensive counter. Basically, everybody else has to deal with lemons. Deal with yours.

    As a game designer wannabe: GDF should be allowed to trigger at any time, but the buffs it gives should update dynamically second by second. So you use it just before you think you're going to get slammed, and you get the benefits of it when you do get slamed, instead of having to rely on being able to trigger it when you're already badly damaged. Basically, something like:
    * lasts for 30 seconds
    * gain Defense and Damage Resistance based on the current total health of your shield pool (shields up, no buff / shields down, gain big defense and damage resist)
    * gain Damage bonus from your missing percentage of hull points

    Maybe the power was badly named in the first place. If it was called "Overwhelming assault" the whole damage thing would mean nothing.

    Right now GDF is way less useful then subnuke OR nadion inversion.

    Actually, photonic fleet is now much more useful then this GDF, and Subnuke is still the king of all PVP. But I do agree that a lot of NPC enemies are hilariously resistant to science abilities.

    Its like they got 9999 power insulators, inertial dampeners and such.
    Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
  • yargomeshyargomesh Member Posts: 179 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I think the main issue with the change to GDF is that it is detrimental to Tac captains flying their "intended" ship class. If the same Tac is flying a Cruiser or Carrier, GDF can actually be viable; the higher base hull and more heal-friendly boff seating makes it easier to get to 50% without seeing the lovely little Respawn button. Even a battlecruiser becomes a bit more practical, as it usually allows for a bit more Neutronium, base hull and healing than the average Escort.
    STO Game design is that there is no 'intended' ship class. Captains are method-based while ships are the more typical 'class' based. A Tac Captain (Offense-Oriented Method) in an Escort (Damage Dealing Ship 'class') does do the most damage, but each Captain can go into any ship type and be able to contribute, with downsides to each ship class. Escorts have the disadvantage of having less hull and shields than the other two ship types and not being able to use GDF as reliably as the other two is an effect of this disadvantage.
    Of course, they also had the ability to cancel it before the timer went off, so not quite in the context it's in now ;)
    Yeah, the only real 'toggle' ability like this would be Evasive Maneuvers and I haven't tried 'using' it again while it was active to see if that canceled the buff. That might be a way to create more toggle-like abilities if it does. Otherwise there are no 'toggle' abilities in the game that would allow for this behavior.
    ak255 wrote: »
    Okay, I can see why they would do it with the new trait system: they've added a trait specifically for Tac officers that give them a huge damage resistance buff when activating "Go Down Fighting".
    GDF itself received the resistance buff part. The Trait simply doubles the amount of resistance that buff provides.
    momaw wrote: »
    As a game designer wannabe: GDF should be allowed to trigger at any time, but the buffs it gives should update dynamically second by second. So you use it just before you think you're going to get slammed, and you get the benefits of it when you do get slamed, instead of having to rely on being able to trigger it when you're already badly damaged.
    That would be the best but as a beginner game designer I see that there are issues you have to deal with in the code, especially if you're not coming from the ground up.

    In this case, we know weapons dynamically update their damage based on weapon power, so how much of that code can we use to create a dynamically updating ability based on health? Are abilities coded in such a way to even be able to dynamically update? How much of the code will we have to change to allow it if there isn't such functionality? How will this effect stability when the game has to perform so many update calculations in addition to everything else?
    These are the annoying questions that have to be answered when implementing new functions, plus more that pop up when the bugs appear. There are always bugs.

    Also I don't agree on including shield health into it. Shields add unnecessary complications if you include them in a health formula, being that there are 4 facings that have to be taken into account and that there are effects that can drop them without dropping their health, plus the ability to not slot any shields can throw off intended behavior. (Yes it'd be stupid to do this but stupider things have been done.)
  • polie05polie05 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Only those that are mediocre in pvp use gdf at anything above 50% anyways. Why would you pop it early and waste that buff? If you know what your doing you don't run ft or district shields. You allow yourself to get down. That's when you rsp or ft, alpha out, tax fleet, and use gdf to insta pop people.


    Edit : in fact my fleet mates are now trolling each other with gdf. When someone is trying to get a gdf we tac/escorts heal each other so they can't use it. Lol of course this is best used when pug stomping.
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