Why?? the D'Dex has always been superior to any federation ships of the 23rd century.. Please dont cry foul because all of a sudden theres a ship to be fearful of.. I personally dont like the D'Dex, or cruisers in general. I'll never fly them. I like escorts and warbirds and getting in close and intimate. Cant do that well in a cruiser ( any cruiser ). The thing is, regardless of what the D'Dex can do, I've seen federation builds that make it look silly. One shot-ing borg cubes for example.. With power like that, theres nothing to be afraid of, and any argument of in-equality becomes meaningless..
Um.... all I got from this was "I'm an outraged fanboy."
Personally, I LOVE cruisers. Escorts.... not so much. Battlecruisers are good though.
Why?? the D'Dex has always been superior to any federation ships of the 23rd century.. Please dont cry foul because all of a sudden theres a ship to be fearful of.. I personally dont like the D'Dex, or cruisers in general. I'll never fly them. I like escorts and warbirds and getting in close and intimate. Cant do that well in a cruiser ( any cruiser ). The thing is, regardless of what the D'Dex can do, I've seen federation builds that make it look silly. One shot-ing borg cubes for example.. With power like that, theres nothing to be afraid of, and any argument of in-equality becomes meaningless..
Yeah in the 23rd but not in the 24th....
And the game now plays in the 25th.
My GalX is one of those cube one shotters too, it also suffers a bad turnrate for something that can use cannons though, and said one shot does not even always hit if you don't use tractor beam.
And yeah you have seen build like that, but let me use your own argument about one shot ships : What stops D'dederix flyiers from making the same build? - Nothing
You also forget that the D'dederix is a lot bigger than a Galaxy Class ship and it is thus logical that the galaxy would be morre maneuverable than a D'dederix.
The Galaxy and the D'dederix were pretty even btw . A sovereign was even stronger than it.
Um.... all I got from this was "I'm an outraged fanboy."
Personally, I LOVE cruisers. Escorts.... not so much. Battlecruisers are good though.
ROFLMAO... I'm neither a fanboy nor outraged.. I have my style and you have yours which is fine, but your estimation of me while bordering on insulting, is also way off mark..
The Galaxy and the D'dederix were pretty even btw . A sovereign was even stronger than it.
yeahh, your right, because outside 9f that one escort, its always the Sovys that are one hitting the cubes.. I truly believe they are without equal in this game..
I know one of the more vocal proponents in this thread for how bad the D'Deridex is is Don'tdrunkimshoot. I'd love to hear drunk's commentary on how bad cruiser DPS is.
Have at it people! Show me how bad cruiser DPS is. Drop the math on me. And the parses. If Cruiser DPS is LESS THAN HALF of what Escort DPS is, maybe I'll change my tune?
ah, dps. please dont tell me thats what you think is the problem here, that cruisers cant DPS well, because they kinda can. but DPS is worthless, all the power creep killed it.
apply DPS and time and you win all pve. its not that simple in pvp. 10k dps cruisers in pve will only have about 500-2000 DPS in pvp, with the resistance levels you actually deal about 50-25% of your listed damage to the target. your target's heals, regeneration, proc heals, and sky high resistance levels out heals that gradual, constant DPS faster then it is applied.
it has nothing to do with how high the DPS you can produce is, its all about the delivery. if its front loaded, like it is from BO and DHCs, you can remove an entire shield faceing in a single cycle. gradual pressure damage has to deal with manual distribution transferring shields when it deals damage, it has to shoot through all 4 facings before it will get a shot at hull. DHC and other spike can get to hull on demand, pressure never can, never damage hull, and thus never actually hurt your target.
it doesn't mater how high the DPS is, if its totally ineffective. pressure damage has a net of 0 damage dealing as a result. any amount of cross healing makes pressure damage do less then nothing, in so that it sets off proc heals on your target, your better off not fireing energy weapons if you are flying a heal boat.
not being about to be flown like a battle cruiser with escort weapons makes the d'deridex TRIBBLE. all i want is it to move as well as a negvar, the fattest usable battle cruiser.
ROFLMAO... I'm neither a fanboy nor outraged.. I have my style and you have yours which is fine, but your estimation of me while bordering on insulting, is also way off mark..
ORLY? Much of your argument was from a strictly in-universe perspective, thus fanboy.
But that's beside the point. My point was that your post had more to do with in-universe comparisons than game balance. I get that you don't like heavy cruisers. Personally, I disagree with this, but whatevs....
ah, dps. please dont tell me thats what you think is the problem here, that cruisers cant DPS well, because they kinda can. but DPS is worthless, all the power creep killed it.
apply DPS and time and you win all pve. its not that simple in pvp. 10k dps cruisers in pve will only have about 500-2000 DPS in pvp, with the resistance levels you actually deal about 50-25% of your listed damage to the target. your target's heals, regeneration, proc heals, and sky high resistance levels out heals that gradual, constant DPS faster then it is applied.
it has nothing to do with how high the DPS you can produce is, its all about the delivery. if its front loaded, like it is from BO and DHCs, you can remove an entire shield faceing in a single cycle. gradual pressure damage has to deal with manual distribution transferring shields when it deals damage, it has to shoot through all 4 facings before it will get a shot at hull. DHC and other spike can get to hull on demand, pressure never can, never damage hull, and thus never actually hurt your target.
it doesn't mater how high the DPS is, if its totally ineffective. pressure damage has a net of 0 damage dealing as a result. any amount of cross healing makes pressure damage do less then nothing, in so that it sets off proc heals on your target, your better off not fireing energy weapons if you are flying a heal boat.
not being about to be flown like a battle cruiser with escort weapons makes the d'deridex TRIBBLE. all i want is it to move as well as a negvar, the fattest usable battle cruiser.
So, here's the thing. I keep getting attacked, insulted and called a troll. But what this entire discussion keeps boiling down to is people don't like to turn slow. When questioned about if the ship is ineffective, I get told this:
"They're big and slow, but not really that much tougher than escorts and with less than half the damage output."
So really, what's the deal drunk? Are cruisers that bad at deeps? If so, then I'm all for bumping up their agility.
But I've been led to believe that cruisers are not bad at deeps. That they can do all kinds of neat deeps tricks. And that it's escorts that are hard pressed to keep up with cruisers.
If that's the case, then this ship, which is heavily tac focused, would seem to be ... I guess the word I'm looking for is ... fine?
The entirety of this thread has boiled down to two reasons to buff its turn rate:
1- Personal preference. People don't like turning slow.
2- Cruisers are bad at DEEPs.
I don't find reason 1 to be something that will compel the developers to change the ship. Especially since it has a built in trick (it's own battle cloak) to help overcome that. And isn't there a console set bonus to boost the innate turn-rate?
I would find reason 2 compelling to push for increased agility. But everything I've been told about cruisers is that their DEEPs is pretty good. With a ton of hyperbole mixed into the mix.
The only other thing I can think of is, people just want the excelsior layout with a D'Deridex skin. That's disappointing.
Alright I was firmly in the "D'deridex is fine" camp, but with the Tal Shiar Adapted Battle Cruiser having a turn rate of 7 despite being a D'deridex with a bunch of borg TRIBBLE bolted onto it, there's no logical reason left to keep the D'deridex at its current turn rate.
And don't say that the borg TRIBBLE makes it more maneuverable because the Tal Shiar Adapted Destroyer is a borg'd up Dhelan and that gets its turn rate knocked down to 11.
If the Warcrab turns at 7, the D'deridex should turn at at least 8 if not 9.
Alright I was firmly in the "D'deridex is fine" camp, but with the Tal Shiar Adapted Battle Cruiser having a turn rate of 7 despite being a D'deridex with a bunch of borg TRIBBLE bolted onto it, there's no logical reason left to keep the D'deridex at its current turn rate.
And don't say that the borg TRIBBLE makes it more maneuverable because the Tal Shiar Adapted Destroyer is a borg'd up Dhelan and that gets its turn rate knocked down to 11.
If the Warcrab turns at 7, the D'deridex should turn at at least 8 if not 9.
^This.
Also, Snoggy, thanks for proving my point. I made an entire post, yet you latch onto one line of obvious trollbait like it's all I've ever said and ignore everything else. Either take the whole post into account, or just stop talking.
So, here's the thing. I keep getting attacked, insulted and called a troll. But what this entire discussion keeps boiling down to is people don't like to turn slow. When questioned about if the ship is ineffective, I get told this:
"They're big and slow, but not really that much tougher than escorts and with less than half the damage output."
So really, what's the deal drunk? Are cruisers that bad at deeps? If so, then I'm all for bumping up their agility.
But I've been led to believe that cruisers are not bad at deeps. That they can do all kinds of neat deeps tricks. And that it's escorts that are hard pressed to keep up with cruisers.
If that's the case, then this ship, which is heavily tac focused, would seem to be ... I guess the word I'm looking for is ... fine?
The entirety of this thread has boiled down to two reasons to buff its turn rate:
1- Personal preference. People don't like turning slow.
2- Cruisers are bad at DEEPs.
I don't find reason 1 to be something that will compel the developers to change the ship. Especially since it has a built in trick (it's own battle cloak) to help overcome that. And isn't there a console set bonus to boost the innate turn-rate?
I would find reason 2 compelling to push for increased agility. But everything I've been told about cruisers is that their DEEPs is pretty good. With a ton of hyperbole mixed into the mix.
The only other thing I can think of is, people just want the excelsior layout with a D'Deridex skin. That's disappointing.
90% of the people in this thread are pve'ers, and i really dont know what their motivation is. all i know is they have a limited frame of reference, and are repeating things pvp'ers say without understanding it as well as they think they do.
if it turns better, its gonna sell beter, its that simple. i dont know, if the ship is good they think people will just buy that and none of the other ships. which is bull, it would still be no escort or sci ship, but a battle cruiser. turning better wile BC'ed makes very little sense, and is worth nothing in an actual battle you are participating in. that console buff does not effect the BASE turn rate, becase nothing like this ever has, so only a measly 2 turn is a drop in the bucket when good battle cruisers have between 25 and 35 after a bunch of turn consoles are used. the d'deridex starting at 5 wont see 20, wile uncloaked.
here are some truths though
1. low turn rates suck in every way. not only is it a quality of life issue, but your ability to direct fire and if your ship cant react at the speed you react is fundamentally aggravating. people dont want the ship, thats the entire reason they want a romulan faction, to aggravate them.
2. its not that cruisers suck at DPS, its that DPS sucks. dps vs spike. 1 of those things is always good, the other is terrible in pvp. cruisers, especially the ones i used to run, did hilarious amounts of DPS, especially when they changed AtB to the AtX system cooldown, and i came up with the 2 AtB cruisers. then rep, embassy console proc heals, and the elite shields happened, and pressure was directly countered to the point were its just pissing in the wind. regardless of how much DPS you produce.
so i dont run my excelsior anymore, but i do run my vorcha, ktinga, kamarang and negvar. why? because they deal front loaded, DHC+torp/BO damage. they can do that because they have a high enough base turn rate that their durability and their levels of spike let them be a unique, and effective ship. the ships to slow or are limited to only pressure damage will never be able to do the effective damage a battle cruiser can deal, even if the fed cruiser is dealing more DPS, according to scoreboards and parcers.
SO, im in this thread complaining because i want to be able to use the d'deridex like my KDF cruisers, because not only is that fun, but its effective. i dont want them to release the d'deridex as a frustrating, aggravating, ineffective ship, with good levels of DPS. because again, DPS and effective damage are 2 different things. apply a DPS ratting to a 10 second period of spike, and then 20 seconds or so of just mostly turret plinking, and your dps score is gonna be bad. but when you spike effectively, that doesn't mater at all. pve is different of course. DPS is what you want, spike just comes in hills and vallies. escorts can still out pressure cruisers in pve though. they are still best at spike and pressure. and can direct it best, with no down time, reacting at the speed the user reacts, and they are a pleasure to use as a result
Then I want a base turnrate of 10 for all Federation cruisers; including the Galaxy X
i not sarcastically want 10, or at least 8, to be the cruiser turn rate floor. if the floor was raised, none of the cruisers would be as bad as they are now
Alright I was firmly in the "D'deridex is fine" camp, but with the Tal Shiar Adapted Battle Cruiser having a turn rate of 7 despite being a D'deridex with a bunch of borg TRIBBLE bolted onto it, there's no logical reason left to keep the D'deridex at its current turn rate.
And don't say that the borg TRIBBLE makes it more maneuverable because the Tal Shiar Adapted Destroyer is a borg'd up Dhelan and that gets its turn rate knocked down to 11.
If the Warcrab turns at 7, the D'deridex should turn at at least 8 if not 9.
Wild guess...I randomly just talk out of my TRIBBLE...but the reason why is cause it has less hull than the normal d, plus its using adapted borg core instead of the regular core, its battle cloak is gone, meaning.....
no battle cloak, less turn ability....I dunno, I just look at the ship stats and thats what I see....
90% of the people in this thread are pve'ers, and i really dont know what their motivation is. all i know is they have a limited frame of reference, and are repeating things pvp'ers say without understanding it as well as they think they do.
Soo... to me... your posts was a long explanation of why you feel that slow ships are bad in PvP. It's not that I disagree with you, it's that I have to quesiton the relevence of this information. PvP has NEVER been "balanced".... the D'D is simply the next in the line.
Soo... to me... your posts was a long explanation of why you feel that slow ships are bad in PvP. It's not that I disagree with you, it's that I have to quesiton the relevence of this information. PvP has NEVER been "balanced".... the D'D is simply the next in the line.
ya... actually it sorta is. its not always pretty, but its balanced. this is another case of repeating something someone said over and over. this is more commenting without actually experience. or this is an opinion formed when you qued up and got spanked and dont understand why. pve does such a disservice to players, not teaching them how to actually play.
pvp is still extreamly fun, and playable, with tight margins for success, without 1 captain type or ship or build being an i win button. well, except the bug sorta. successful teams have lots of sci and control, with spiky escorts exploiting debuffs. theres just no room for engineers and fed styles cruisers in it anymore, which is why most pvp'ers call for large buffs to those 2 things. and why the d'deridex is such a hot topic, becase its slated asa crappy cruiser with that turn rate, instead of a very fun and usable battle cruiser with an at least 9 turn rate.
if pvp was so unbalanced and unplayable, i wouldn't have made such a huge help thread for it, filled with all the tribal knowledge you need to figure pvp out. linked to in my sig
ya... actually it sorta is. its not always pretty, but its balanced. this is another case of repeating something someone said over and over. this is more commenting without actually experience. or this is an opinion formed when you qued up and got spanked and dont understand why. pve does such a disservice to players, not teaching them how to actually play.
pvp is still extreamly fun, and playable, with tight margins for success, without 1 captain type or ship or build being an i win button. well, except the bug sorta. successful teams have lots of sci and control, with spiky escorts exploiting debuffs. theres just no room for engineers and fed styles cruisers in it anymore, which is why most pvp'ers call for large buffs to those 2 things. and why the d'deridex is such a hot topic, becase its slated asa crappy cruiser with that turn rate, instead of a very fun and usable battle cruiser with an at least 9 turn rate.
if pvp was so unbalanced and unplayable, i wouldn't have made such a huge help thread for it, filled with all the tribal knowledge you need to figure pvp out. linked to in my sig
Again, your complaints, while valid, aren't anything specific to the D'D.... Personally, I only PvP if my fleet mates want to have fun or someone wants to test a build. I stick to PvE and writing Foundry misisons for the most part.
Also, Snoggy, thanks for proving my point. I made an entire post, yet you latch onto one line of obvious trollbait like it's all I've ever said and ignore everything else. Either take the whole post into account, or just stop talking.
Say something relevant, that wasn't already discussed pages ago and maybe I'll bother discussing it. As it is, all you're saying is you want to turn better because you personally dislike turning slow or you are lying about cruiser DPS saying its too low, when it isn't.
Wild guess...I randomly just talk out of my TRIBBLE...but the reason why is cause it has less hull than the normal d, plus its using adapted borg core instead of the regular core, its battle cloak is gone, meaning.....
no battle cloak, less turn ability....I dunno, I just look at the ship stats and thats what I see....
Actually if you really take a look at that picture you can see the original hull of the D'deridex and the Borg equipment is added on top of that. However you're right the nose is different, but there are more sections that jut out of than the original so it's actually larger not smaller than the base D'deridex.
Alright I was firmly in the "D'deridex is fine" camp, but with the Tal Shiar Adapted Battle Cruiser having a turn rate of 7 despite being a D'deridex with a bunch of borg TRIBBLE bolted onto it, there's no logical reason left to keep the D'deridex at its current turn rate.
And don't say that the borg TRIBBLE makes it more maneuverable because the Tal Shiar Adapted Destroyer is a borg'd up Dhelan and that gets its turn rate knocked down to 11.
If the Warcrab turns at 7, the D'deridex should turn at at least 8 if not 9.
The best part about those tal'shiar ships? You're basically flying a Narada!
That's so freakin SWEEEEEET! You get to be Nero! "Hello Christopher. I'm Nero!" "Codes please!" "Spock? SPAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHCK!"
We should all meet up in the Laurentian system and discuss how awesome this new development is!
Again, your complaints, while valid, aren't anything specific to the D'D.... Personally, I only PvP if my fleet mates want to have fun or someone wants to test a build. I stick to PvE and writing Foundry misisons for the most part.
Thank you for proving his point.
While the complaints are not exclusive to the D'd, true, they are exclusive to the lowest turn cruisers, which now welcomes the romulan cruisers.
The argument has shifted to include all low turn cruisers because, I guess focusing on the D'd is sparking some kind of RP rage about it is supposed to turn very slow, for some reason. So it has shifted to include all of them in the hopes you will understand the depths of the problem.
Oh wow, the new lockboxes solve all your problems here people.
You get a Narada that turns faster.
AND, AND ... check it ... you get a new trait!
Genetic Resequencer: One of four new Traits, each packaged with one free Trait Respec. Each captain may only unpack each Trait a single time, after which time it will remain a permanent option they may select when choosing their Traits.
Helmsman - Space Trait:
+10% Flight Turn Rate
Evasive Maneuvers cooldown reduced by 10sec
So there you go. Problem solved. Lockbox Lotto brings you the ship you want with the trait boost to boot!
Oh wow, the new lockboxes solve all your problems here people.
You get a Narada that turns faster.
AND, AND ... check it ... you get a new trait!
So there you go. Problem solved. Lockbox Lotto brings you the ship you want with the trait boost to boot!
I wouldn't say "solved" exactly but its a start. The cruiser is kinda all over the place with its boff layout. Ill have to look at it more when I get home. Lock box though...yay...
Oh wow, the new lockboxes solve all your problems here people.
You get a Narada that turns faster.
AND, AND ... check it ... you get a new trait!
So there you go. Problem solved. Lockbox Lotto brings you the ship you want with the trait boost to boot!
nether of those ships are that great, and nether of them are the d'deridex. +10% to turn rate is nothing, a decent turn console gives at least +35%. 10% of 5 is .5, a bug would get 2 turn from it, and it cant have less then like 45 turn. so big deal
One of them is a borged up? borginated? borgified? Borg enhanced D'Deridex.
As msk5 already said:
the Tal Shiar Adapted Battle Cruiser having a turn rate of 7 despite being a D'deridex with a bunch of borg TRIBBLE bolted onto it
See? Problem solved. D'D with a 7 turn rate. Just have to get it via lockbox, which you know, is kind of what Cryptic pushes these days. So that's not too big a problem I don't think.
+10% to turn rate is nothing, a decent turn console gives at least +35%.
It's a trait. That's in-line with what traits do.
10% of 5 is .5,
Well the fleet D'D's turn rate is 5.5, so there is that extra oomph.
a bug would get 2 turn from it, and it cant have less then like 45 turn. so big deal
Heh. I'm with you on that. I think everyone in this thread who wants to turn faster should fly a JHAS instead. Preaching to the choir mate. Preaching to the choir.
meta game hasn't caught up yet? the metagames moves at the speed of changes, and is perfectly aligned with what actually effective. all these ways you mentain its not supposed to be flown, your not leaving it a single effective way it can be flown.
That would be because after three consecutive weeks of actually taking the time to explain these things, it's become abundantly clear to me players are wholly disinterested in actually learning to fly the thing in favor of whining about it, and posting further on the topic is a complete waste of my time. If you are interested, do a forum search for my posts about it.
...some stat issues can be forgiven because they are made up something else.
Like the fact the D'Deridex can peak out at almost a 30 turn rate while having DHC's, over 200K EHP, and a halfway decent boff layout?
...and get laughed out of any team play, they serve no purpose, other then hunting loaners in cap and holds. the d'deridex will be joining those ranks as it is. of the 3, it will be the best for its ability to actually position for a decloak 10 times better then those other 2, but beyond that, it will still be a terrible ship. spending the vast majority of its time not able to do anything, wile any other war bird in its place can be fighting well the entire time.
I guess we'll find this out for ourselves. I'm putting my money on the ship being a major dark horse.
Somebody getting uppity about canon? No problem! Just take a deep breath, and repeat after me:
Well, the thing is its NOT a D'd with a 7 turn. The boff layout is completely different. I also don't see how adding a bunch of TRIBBLE to the hull makes it turn faster, but meh, whatever.
I also don't understand your proposed solution to wanting a cruiser with a better turn rate. Essentially what you are saying then is "you want a cruiser that turns faster, fly a bug ship"? You fly a cruiser (well, at least I do) for the higher level engineer stations, yes? so how does going to a Lt and Ensign (most common layout for it) solve the issue?
If this is the entire basis for your resistance to the proposed changes, then its no wonder you disagree with them. By your rationale then, all cruisers should be at 5 turn because that is their play style? I guess I really don't understand your line of thinking in this regard.
There is a very stark difference between a JHAS and any given cruiser. You know this, I know this, everyone knows this. There is also a very stark difference between asking for a +2 turn rate and asking for it to handle like a bug ship.
I personally don't like flying escorts. They make me feel like I am cheating. I do realize that by not flying one, I am playing with a handicap, no doubt, but when you get above a certain amount of turn, it just starts to feel like hax.
I like cruisers. Not only are they iconic star trek ships, but they have a different play style than escorts. It happens to be a style that I enjoy in this game.
So no, telling me that I should just fly a JHAS instead of asking for a slight increase to a/any cruisers turn rate, is not really an acceptable solution.
I just think that their flimsy lorelol justification is well and truly gone, now. The D'deridex should get a turn rate buff. Will it? I dunno.
The game in general needs a good balance pass after a few months of LoR render all the data required to balance warbirds. I'm looking forward to flying the D'deridex on holodeck but having seen the Khnial in beta, I just don't get how it can possibly turn better, thing's easily three times the size of a standard D'deridex.
I just think that their flimsy lorelol justification is well and truly gone, now. The D'deridex should get a turn rate buff. Will it? I dunno.
The game in general needs a good balance pass after a few months of LoR render all the data required to balance warbirds. I'm looking forward to flying the D'deridex on holodeck but having seen the Khnial in beta, I just don't get how it can possibly turn better, thing's easily three times the size of a standard D'deridex.
There's more to the physics of how quickly something can turn than volume. Namely mass and how much force is applied to accelerate the object.
The size of an object (volume), does not necessarily correlate with its mass. An object can occupy more space but have less mass, and vice versa. Likewise, a more massive object could turn more quickly than a less massive object if the more massive object has more force available to accelerate it.
Not to take a side in the turn rate argument, but too many people are arguing based on the idea that volume alone should determine the turn rate, when that is not nearly the case.
Comments
Personally, I LOVE cruisers.
My character Tsin'xing
Yeah in the 23rd but not in the 24th....
And the game now plays in the 25th.
My GalX is one of those cube one shotters too, it also suffers a bad turnrate for something that can use cannons though, and said one shot does not even always hit if you don't use tractor beam.
And yeah you have seen build like that, but let me use your own argument about one shot ships : What stops D'dederix flyiers from making the same build? - Nothing
You also forget that the D'dederix is a lot bigger than a Galaxy Class ship and it is thus logical that the galaxy would be morre maneuverable than a D'dederix.
The Galaxy and the D'dederix were pretty even btw
ROFLMAO... I'm neither a fanboy nor outraged.. I have my style and you have yours which is fine, but your estimation of me while bordering on insulting, is also way off mark..
yeahh, your right, because outside 9f that one escort, its always the Sovys that are one hitting the cubes.. I truly believe they are without equal in this game..
ah, dps. please dont tell me thats what you think is the problem here, that cruisers cant DPS well, because they kinda can. but DPS is worthless, all the power creep killed it.
apply DPS and time and you win all pve. its not that simple in pvp. 10k dps cruisers in pve will only have about 500-2000 DPS in pvp, with the resistance levels you actually deal about 50-25% of your listed damage to the target. your target's heals, regeneration, proc heals, and sky high resistance levels out heals that gradual, constant DPS faster then it is applied.
it has nothing to do with how high the DPS you can produce is, its all about the delivery. if its front loaded, like it is from BO and DHCs, you can remove an entire shield faceing in a single cycle. gradual pressure damage has to deal with manual distribution transferring shields when it deals damage, it has to shoot through all 4 facings before it will get a shot at hull. DHC and other spike can get to hull on demand, pressure never can, never damage hull, and thus never actually hurt your target.
it doesn't mater how high the DPS is, if its totally ineffective. pressure damage has a net of 0 damage dealing as a result. any amount of cross healing makes pressure damage do less then nothing, in so that it sets off proc heals on your target, your better off not fireing energy weapons if you are flying a heal boat.
not being about to be flown like a battle cruiser with escort weapons makes the d'deridex TRIBBLE. all i want is it to move as well as a negvar, the fattest usable battle cruiser.
But that's beside the point. My point was that your post had more to do with in-universe comparisons than game balance. I get that you don't like heavy cruisers. Personally, I disagree with this, but whatevs....
My character Tsin'xing
So, here's the thing. I keep getting attacked, insulted and called a troll. But what this entire discussion keeps boiling down to is people don't like to turn slow. When questioned about if the ship is ineffective, I get told this:
"They're big and slow, but not really that much tougher than escorts and with less than half the damage output."
So really, what's the deal drunk? Are cruisers that bad at deeps? If so, then I'm all for bumping up their agility.
But I've been led to believe that cruisers are not bad at deeps. That they can do all kinds of neat deeps tricks. And that it's escorts that are hard pressed to keep up with cruisers.
If that's the case, then this ship, which is heavily tac focused, would seem to be ... I guess the word I'm looking for is ... fine?
The entirety of this thread has boiled down to two reasons to buff its turn rate:
1- Personal preference. People don't like turning slow.
2- Cruisers are bad at DEEPs.
I don't find reason 1 to be something that will compel the developers to change the ship. Especially since it has a built in trick (it's own battle cloak) to help overcome that. And isn't there a console set bonus to boost the innate turn-rate?
I would find reason 2 compelling to push for increased agility. But everything I've been told about cruisers is that their DEEPs is pretty good. With a ton of hyperbole mixed into the mix.
The only other thing I can think of is, people just want the excelsior layout with a D'Deridex skin. That's disappointing.
And don't say that the borg TRIBBLE makes it more maneuverable because the Tal Shiar Adapted Destroyer is a borg'd up Dhelan and that gets its turn rate knocked down to 11.
If the Warcrab turns at 7, the D'deridex should turn at at least 8 if not 9.
^This.
Also, Snoggy, thanks for proving my point. I made an entire post, yet you latch onto one line of obvious trollbait like it's all I've ever said and ignore everything else. Either take the whole post into account, or just stop talking.
90% of the people in this thread are pve'ers, and i really dont know what their motivation is. all i know is they have a limited frame of reference, and are repeating things pvp'ers say without understanding it as well as they think they do.
if it turns better, its gonna sell beter, its that simple. i dont know, if the ship is good they think people will just buy that and none of the other ships. which is bull, it would still be no escort or sci ship, but a battle cruiser. turning better wile BC'ed makes very little sense, and is worth nothing in an actual battle you are participating in. that console buff does not effect the BASE turn rate, becase nothing like this ever has, so only a measly 2 turn is a drop in the bucket when good battle cruisers have between 25 and 35 after a bunch of turn consoles are used. the d'deridex starting at 5 wont see 20, wile uncloaked.
here are some truths though
1. low turn rates suck in every way. not only is it a quality of life issue, but your ability to direct fire and if your ship cant react at the speed you react is fundamentally aggravating. people dont want the ship, thats the entire reason they want a romulan faction, to aggravate them.
2. its not that cruisers suck at DPS, its that DPS sucks. dps vs spike. 1 of those things is always good, the other is terrible in pvp. cruisers, especially the ones i used to run, did hilarious amounts of DPS, especially when they changed AtB to the AtX system cooldown, and i came up with the 2 AtB cruisers. then rep, embassy console proc heals, and the elite shields happened, and pressure was directly countered to the point were its just pissing in the wind. regardless of how much DPS you produce.
so i dont run my excelsior anymore, but i do run my vorcha, ktinga, kamarang and negvar. why? because they deal front loaded, DHC+torp/BO damage. they can do that because they have a high enough base turn rate that their durability and their levels of spike let them be a unique, and effective ship. the ships to slow or are limited to only pressure damage will never be able to do the effective damage a battle cruiser can deal, even if the fed cruiser is dealing more DPS, according to scoreboards and parcers.
SO, im in this thread complaining because i want to be able to use the d'deridex like my KDF cruisers, because not only is that fun, but its effective. i dont want them to release the d'deridex as a frustrating, aggravating, ineffective ship, with good levels of DPS. because again, DPS and effective damage are 2 different things. apply a DPS ratting to a 10 second period of spike, and then 20 seconds or so of just mostly turret plinking, and your dps score is gonna be bad. but when you spike effectively, that doesn't mater at all. pve is different of course. DPS is what you want, spike just comes in hills and vallies. escorts can still out pressure cruisers in pve though. they are still best at spike and pressure. and can direct it best, with no down time, reacting at the speed the user reacts, and they are a pleasure to use as a result
i not sarcastically want 10, or at least 8, to be the cruiser turn rate floor. if the floor was raised, none of the cruisers would be as bad as they are now
Wild guess...I randomly just talk out of my TRIBBLE...but the reason why is cause it has less hull than the normal d, plus its using adapted borg core instead of the regular core, its battle cloak is gone, meaning.....
no battle cloak, less turn ability....I dunno, I just look at the ship stats and thats what I see....
My character Tsin'xing
ya... actually it sorta is. its not always pretty, but its balanced. this is another case of repeating something someone said over and over. this is more commenting without actually experience. or this is an opinion formed when you qued up and got spanked and dont understand why. pve does such a disservice to players, not teaching them how to actually play.
pvp is still extreamly fun, and playable, with tight margins for success, without 1 captain type or ship or build being an i win button. well, except the bug sorta. successful teams have lots of sci and control, with spiky escorts exploiting debuffs. theres just no room for engineers and fed styles cruisers in it anymore, which is why most pvp'ers call for large buffs to those 2 things. and why the d'deridex is such a hot topic, becase its slated asa crappy cruiser with that turn rate, instead of a very fun and usable battle cruiser with an at least 9 turn rate.
if pvp was so unbalanced and unplayable, i wouldn't have made such a huge help thread for it, filled with all the tribal knowledge you need to figure pvp out. linked to in my sig
My character Tsin'xing
Say something relevant, that wasn't already discussed pages ago and maybe I'll bother discussing it. As it is, all you're saying is you want to turn better because you personally dislike turning slow or you are lying about cruiser DPS saying its too low, when it isn't.
Actually if you really take a look at that picture you can see the original hull of the D'deridex and the Borg equipment is added on top of that. However you're right the nose is different, but there are more sections that jut out of than the original so it's actually larger not smaller than the base D'deridex.
The best part about those tal'shiar ships? You're basically flying a Narada!
That's so freakin SWEEEEEET! You get to be Nero! "Hello Christopher. I'm Nero!" "Codes please!" "Spock? SPAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHCK!"
We should all meet up in the Laurentian system and discuss how awesome this new development is!
Thank you for proving his point.
While the complaints are not exclusive to the D'd, true, they are exclusive to the lowest turn cruisers, which now welcomes the romulan cruisers.
The argument has shifted to include all low turn cruisers because, I guess focusing on the D'd is sparking some kind of RP rage about it is supposed to turn very slow, for some reason. So it has shifted to include all of them in the hopes you will understand the depths of the problem.
You get a Narada that turns faster.
AND, AND ... check it ... you get a new trait!
So there you go. Problem solved. Lockbox Lotto brings you the ship you want with the trait boost to boot!
if a ship twice as large as the galaxy get's a turn of 7 the size argument is now dead
I wouldn't say "solved" exactly but its a start. The cruiser is kinda all over the place with its boff layout. Ill have to look at it more when I get home. Lock box though...yay...
nether of those ships are that great, and nether of them are the d'deridex. +10% to turn rate is nothing, a decent turn console gives at least +35%. 10% of 5 is .5, a bug would get 2 turn from it, and it cant have less then like 45 turn. so big deal
One of them is a borged up? borginated? borgified? Borg enhanced D'Deridex.
As msk5 already said:
See? Problem solved. D'D with a 7 turn rate. Just have to get it via lockbox, which you know, is kind of what Cryptic pushes these days. So that's not too big a problem I don't think.
It's a trait. That's in-line with what traits do.
Well the fleet D'D's turn rate is 5.5, so there is that extra oomph.
Heh. I'm with you on that. I think everyone in this thread who wants to turn faster should fly a JHAS instead. Preaching to the choir mate. Preaching to the choir.
Like the fact the D'Deridex can peak out at almost a 30 turn rate while having DHC's, over 200K EHP, and a halfway decent boff layout?
I guess we'll find this out for ourselves. I'm putting my money on the ship being a major dark horse.
Spock's Brain.
I also don't understand your proposed solution to wanting a cruiser with a better turn rate. Essentially what you are saying then is "you want a cruiser that turns faster, fly a bug ship"? You fly a cruiser (well, at least I do) for the higher level engineer stations, yes? so how does going to a Lt and Ensign (most common layout for it) solve the issue?
If this is the entire basis for your resistance to the proposed changes, then its no wonder you disagree with them. By your rationale then, all cruisers should be at 5 turn because that is their play style? I guess I really don't understand your line of thinking in this regard.
There is a very stark difference between a JHAS and any given cruiser. You know this, I know this, everyone knows this. There is also a very stark difference between asking for a +2 turn rate and asking for it to handle like a bug ship.
I personally don't like flying escorts. They make me feel like I am cheating. I do realize that by not flying one, I am playing with a handicap, no doubt, but when you get above a certain amount of turn, it just starts to feel like hax.
I like cruisers. Not only are they iconic star trek ships, but they have a different play style than escorts. It happens to be a style that I enjoy in this game.
So no, telling me that I should just fly a JHAS instead of asking for a slight increase to a/any cruisers turn rate, is not really an acceptable solution.
The game in general needs a good balance pass after a few months of LoR render all the data required to balance warbirds. I'm looking forward to flying the D'deridex on holodeck but having seen the Khnial in beta, I just don't get how it can possibly turn better, thing's easily three times the size of a standard D'deridex.
There's more to the physics of how quickly something can turn than volume. Namely mass and how much force is applied to accelerate the object.
The size of an object (volume), does not necessarily correlate with its mass. An object can occupy more space but have less mass, and vice versa. Likewise, a more massive object could turn more quickly than a less massive object if the more massive object has more force available to accelerate it.
Not to take a side in the turn rate argument, but too many people are arguing based on the idea that volume alone should determine the turn rate, when that is not nearly the case.