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Fix the turn rate for the D'Deridex
wardcalis
Member Posts: 1,137 Arc User
Fix the turn rate for the D'Deridex, It is so bad, it's the greatest ship in startrek history and it's unplayable because of the turn.
Post edited by wardcalis on
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The D'deridex is fine especially with the new boff layout. It's not an escort and never was going to be one. This is why Romulan Battle Cloak grants a huge turn buff, you're supposed to play rom ships more as hit and run ships alpha-striking all over than a Fedscort. D'deridex is designed to hit hard, withstand whatever it gets countered with until battle cloak is ready and fade away to do it again.
If you don't like the way the D'deridex plays, spoilers, but you're not going to like a lot about the Romulans from a tactical perspective.
I mean it's not an escort and you'd be insane to put dual cannons on it, but mobility really isn't the issue I was expecting it to be. And the new BOFF layout is amazing.
Good warbird pilots are going to be the bane of everyone else's existence in PVP.
You need to provide more information so we know if it is the fault of the ship, or the fault of the pilot and not using proper gear/spec/settings.
I am hoping that there will be tighter turning free alternatives introduced for players who don't have an undying love for this fattened turkey, but to date there is no love for the escort crowd in this faction.
Romulan ships are seriously lacking in variety, unlike the escort, science, cruiser choices of the other factions, every tier of Romulan just rewards you with increasingly bulky ships.
Unless of course you want to spend money.
I'm cruiser guy myself and I will be getting the Haakona because I think it looks cool, but I won't be lying if I say that I hope to see considerably more filling the lots of the ship dealer in the hopefully not too distant future.
Enhanced Maneuvering Systems (D'deridex)
+2 Turn Rate
+10 Engine Power
That boosts it's turn rate to 7.5
And one of the consoles helps with turning as well.
Console ? Universal ? Molecular Phase Inverter
Increases Defense, Damage Resistance, Speed and Turn Rate while also disabling ship collision. Can activate Cloak while Phased.
Console ? Universal ? Projected Singularity
Launches a mobile subspace tear that moves away from the front of your ship, dragging enemy ships in its wake before imploding to deal damage.
Use those two consoles on the D'Dex and the thing is a beast.
I normally only fly escorts, with the one exception of the vesta. but i can't wait to fly the d'dex with the set bonus.
Sure if you load it with multiple RCS consoles and spec every possible point to anything that increases turn rate then it's playable. Yes the ship has a big "footprint", but the majority of that is open space, and it's not a carrier with hangar bays full of fighters to go shoot things for you. It's a warship, it's meant to kick TRIBBLE straight on for the first run, circle around broadsiding and then come up from behind to shove the final torp/cannon up your ^%$.
Seriously thou people it's a cruiser, not a carrier and it shouldn't have the turn rate of a carrier. A min of 6 like the space whale with the 2 console mini set bonus adding +2 to that base rate.
Setting aside any "real world physics" which most have been flawed on forgetting about the open space between the hull sections, this is a game, it should be fun, not Mechanical Engineering 104 trying to spec it just right to get it to turn.
Cloak to get in close and shove it down their throat, cloak to go for the kidney shot and cloak to get in and shove the death blow up their tail pipes....not cloak to turn left at the next light, cloak to turn right in 500 feet. That's how ridiculous your "just cloak and it has a great turn rate" sounds.
Ok heres a solution its not a magic bullet but it helps
1) add 2x armor of your choice
2) RCS
3) Use Battle cloak as much as possible
4) using step 3 adds a 5 second weapons damage buff
5) Dont fly the DD like a federation or a KDF captain think romulan use subterfuge when possible.
Part of that may be that you need to learn when to cloak and when not too. Cloaking is a skill, not a talent, that takes time to learn, and each ship has its quirks with cloaking as well.
Also, half the time in STFs on a cruiser, I hull tank anyway, compared to shield tanking. So not having any shields isn't necessarily a bad thing, if you know what your doing and how to tank. Course if you're built around DPS (and if you're building a D'Deridex around DPS, you may want to reconcider say... a Mogai or something) it won't always work.
But I do agree, a 34000 hull is super low on a slow turning ship, but that's partially fixable with engineering consoles.
34k hull is the base model....not the retrofit or fleet...which i believe is topping the hull levels just slightly from any other ship ingame
auxilliary to dampners, cloak, attack patern omega 1, evasive manuevers...she turns fine with any one of these abiltities thrown down....the ship is huge ...begging for a increased turn rate only brings in nerfs on the ship, and the big D is fine.
If you still dont like it...use something else.
1. Its twice as big so it should have twice the hull right?
2. Its slower not less maneuverable. Meaning its top speed is lower then the Galaxy.
So there is no reason for it to be at a 5.5
That being said part of the problem is its the only Tier 4 ship for Romulans.
So you go from a beautiful escort to a 5.5 turn whale...
That being said no Ship in space that uses IDs and artificial gravity should turn like a whale.
The lowest a Cruiser should go is 7.
End of Story.
Twice as big does not mean twice the hull. All that extra space, means it needs more structural reinforcement to make it stronger. Hull thickness and building materials is only a small factor in determining any hulls strength, even today. For example, the USS Constitution had such strong hull strength not only because of the supeior oak used in its structure, but the spacing and the construction of the bracing underneath it. If size ony mattered, any ship of the line would have had more hull strength then it had.
Secondly, in TNG, they state specifically that the D'Deridex is slower then the Galaxy class. So for once they're at least partially following lore.
Thirdly, if what you say about ID and artificial gravity, then all ships would turn the same speed, escorts and cruisers. However they only partially negate physics, not totally negate physics. So larger ships, having more mass, would have to have increasingly more powerful dampners to counter-act their mass. Either way, you'd still need to have increasing larger expenditures of energy to get larger ships to counter their mass.
Finally, concidering how large a D'Deridex is, where you can actually fit a Galaxy class inside the wings of it, it's more the size of a carrier, not a cruiser. The Romulans just classify it as a Cruiser, since their Carriers, the Scimitars are even larger.
DS9, for example, they moved it thru normal space with the assistance of a subspace field to circumvent its mass. So, in as many years as have past, no one has integrated a similar technology to large craft, like Cruisers? These ships already have the ability to create subspace fields to alter their mass.
Saying that its turn rate is OK because of its mass is just ridiculous.
That's applying 20th Century thinking to a 25th Century problem.
In this game, to deny any ship maneuverability is directly equivalent to denying it function.
Turn rate is the #1 looked for stat by most build creators, for anything other than a heal-boat.
I'm not saying it should perform like an escort, it should be different.
But to limit any ship to 20% the base turn rate of the best turning ship in the game is just ludicrous.
Cryptic has just made Turn Rate too darn important.
But the power creep of this game makes this type of ship nonfunctional.
Nonfunctional referring to, if its 'situational' abilities are on cooldown, it can't hold its own.
No 'situational' ability, console or otherwise will fix this, its flawed at the core.
The power loss due to the singularity mechanic makes things even worse.
For everything you add to this ship for maneuverability, you take away something, be it survivability, or functionality.
The best you end up with is something that might do something OK, once in a while, but does nothing well, or often.
Please fix this Cryptic, and the Galaxy that you compare it to.
Ships like this are just NOT FUN.
Do people fly a Vo'Quv without issue?
Do people fly a Bortasqu' without issue?
Then the issue is not with the D'deridex...
...just saying.
Hrmmm...can you get most of them to come here and agree with you on that?
The Galaxy is also one of the greatest ships in Star Trek history
And its continually compared to the D'Deridex
Is the Galaxy one of the greatest ships in Star Trek 'Online' history?
If the amount of complaints about it reflect anything, that question answers itself.
How many satisfied Tier 5 Galaxy owners do you know? How many do you see?
Can you get them to come here and verify that?
You suggested making it an Escort in the other thread.
The Breen Chel Grett Warship is not a Cruiser. It's an Escort. Even sports the Escort +10% Bonus Defense. Yep, that 13 Turn makes it the slowest turning Escort...1 less than the Vet Ship. It's still an Escort though.
The D'deridex is a Battle Cruiser. It needs to be compared to other Battle Cruisers...not to Escorts.
Fleet D'deridex vs...
Fleet Negh'var
Fleet Tor'Kaht (painful to include, but technically it is a Battle Cruiser)
Fleet K't'inga
Fleet Kamarag
The Bortasqu' Brothers
Based on turn, that comparison might start with the Bortasqu' boats. It may start elsewhere within that, eh?
Course, there's also the funky BOFF layout. Some might even start that comparison with Carriers instead of Battle Cruisers. Seeing if the D'deridex gets anything for the lack of hangars.
But still...those are the areas where the comparisons would be made, no?
I've never favored boosting turn. No, what I've favored tends to tick off both sides. It upsets those that want Cruiser turn boosted and it upsets the Escortjocks when they read I think Escort turn needs diminishing returns.
I do not believe that Cruisers turn too slow nor that Escorts turn too fast...I do believe that Escorts can turn too fast. There's a difference between "turn too fast" and "can turn too fast"...the base numbers are fine, but how high those numbers can be pushed can create problems.
I've got a Hegh'ta...the base turn is 21. The base turn of 21 is not the issue. The issue is that the unbuffed turn for the guy in the ship is actually over 45. But then again, it's the same for any ship I've got. All of their unbuffed turns are just over twice the base turn. Chel's around 26, RSV's around 26, Vo'Quv is around 9-10, etc, etc, etc. Yep, even the D'deridex is 10-12.
The issue, imho, is the static math there - there's no scale - there's no limit. It's just a flat modifier that brings you out to about just over half.
Course, even though I said I was just going to look at turn - this isn't the only place Cryptic math is...bad...like that, imho.
The ratio between DHCs and Beam Arrays? 1.74:1 DPV and 1.45:1 DPS. Those ratios stay the same. So guess what happens as people are able to do more and more damage? The actual damage gap between DHCs and Beam Arrays grows and grows. Ratio stays the same. Gap grows. That's before you take into account firing cycles and resists/healing as well as drain mechanics.
There are limits/scaling in place for Hull Damage Resistance, Shield Damage Reduction, To-Hit, etc, etc, etc...those limits, that kind of scaling, is missing from things like damage and turn.
heres some practical reasons it should have a beter turn rate
-its a battle cruisers, and it needs to have a turn rate between 9 and 11. 9 would be just fine.
-the ship has much less volume then just the top section, and may be about even in volume as the bottom section of the ha'apax. those sections separately turn at 10 and 16, just because they are an escort and sci ship.
so regardless of size, those ships move like they are supposed to, and they are larger ships then the d'deridex. only the battle cruisers d'deridex has to endure a terrible turn rate, because. this is indefensible.
prove me wrong about the 2 ha'apax sections being larger devs. calculate how much space the models displace and compare the 2. that would give a ship volume reading.
But if the ship is not to your liking don't use it. I'm surprised Cryptic actually listened about the BO layout, but like always give an inch take a mile with this playerbase.
This ship is not like the KDF, or FED counterparts....which means you will have to learn a new way to play her...I know it's hard for some payers to try something new especially Star Trek fans who just live in the past. The cookie cutter builds for the other faction ships are not going to work with these ship, so it's time for some to think outside the box a little...Or just wait for a good player to find it for you and just copy him.
the verbatim spewed by someone who has huge gaps in his game knowledge, and knows it, saying to just play it differently. as if there is a perfectly good way to use the ship as is, and its us thats the problem. better throw in cookie cutter too, thats always a favorite.
spare me, please.
As a result the D'Deridex doesn't really fill any role in which it could excel. It will probably remain a ship for players who are just going for the looks and don't care about the suitability of their ship.
I don't remember if I was trying to be serious or not...and I haven't had enough caffeine yet to look at it to see if I was trying to be serious or not.
(OO) D'deridex
<xx> Elachi
(OO) facing the <xx>
Second later...
<xx> behind (OO)
Then having to turn the behemoth around...
...yeah, have to figure Cryptic didn't do themselves any favors with that.
Still waiting to be able to use forum titles
Yeah, well according to canon, the bug ship is a fragile little POS with a single polaron beam out the nose, ships fired dual beams out the sides and back, torpedos hurt shields , and the D had 360 degree beam arrays.
Why is this the one thing that must adhere to canon?
Yes, there are some people who claim the D'deridex is just fine. I would also bet that those people do not PvP.
The fact is, there is no reason to ever fly one. Everything that it can do, can be done much better on another ship.
Yeah, RCS consoles and the stupid zen console it comes with help a tiny bit, but if they offer a +2 turn rate console with the stupid zen version, why didn't they just make the base turn 7.5? because when you apply any RCS consoles to it, it goes off the base.
A MkXII purple RCS giving you 40% (5.5 * .4) = 2.2 for each console. 7.5 base would be 3 turn for each one. Its still TRIBBLE, but a bit better. With 4 consoles at the current turn rate would give you 2.2 * 4 = 8.8 + 5.5 + 2 (Console) = 16.3. Add in Impulse thrusters, EPtE, and maybe even a Tachyo, and you are barely breaking 19, maybe 20. And that is with using every single console space you have for turn rate.
That is just utter TRIBBLE for turning, especially for DHCs, battle cloak or no battle cloak.
Low turn = Not fun for the majority of players. What part of this do you not understand?
And don't give me some BS about having to balance the ship because of Battle cloak and the singularity powers. Where was that "balancing out" factor when it came to the escorts? BoPs had to lose a lot of hull, shield mod, and a Boff slot to balance out them having BC. Romulan escorts get what, a tiny decrease in their power? Oh noes, look out.
It is just another way for the devs to iterate that they detest cruisers and/or love escorts.
Nobody is asking for the damn thing to handle like an escort. What we are asking for is a cruiser with a competitive turn rate like almost every single KDF cruiser. Most of us would GLADLY take a hull hit or shield mod hit instead of a turn rate hit as far as balance goes.
They do understand that. That's why they provide so many ships that turn much better than they should.
While the majority of folks might be more than happy to have STO be some form of Space TPS...it's still Star Trek Online.
So yep - they provide ships for both those that want to play Star Trek Online and those that want to play Starfighter Online.
Again, I do not want a starfighter. I do not want to fly an escort. I want to fly a god damn cruiser fed side that doesn't suck. And I am not alone. I don't want to fly a zippy turn rate escort. We want decent cruisers. LoR was the answer for that, until they made the turn rate 5.5. Now its WORSE than fed side.
edit - damnit virus, you keep changing your sig on me. And you changed your avatar! Wish I could. guess you gotta pay for that.