WRONG! Cruisers get a few thousand more hull hit points! This makes up for their dismal turn rate and inability to use dual heavy cannons because of their terrible bridge officer layout and the aforementioned maneuverability issues. After all, as we all know, an extra few thousand hull makes all the difference in the world! [/sarcasm]
Hrrrmm... No?
Sorry, but these few more Hullpoints are not much worth. With low turnrate your survival depends more on TT and EPTS. You can not turn away and your hull wont endure long. sorry, but you argument is wrong.
The problem is the entire system. turnrate, weapons, hull, shields, bridge offiver abilities, etc... everything was just thrown together just carelessly. their values are not balanced.
Sorry, but these few more Hullpoints are not much worth. With low turnrate your survival depends more on TT and EPTS. You can not turn away and your hull wont endure long. sorry, but you argument is wrong.
The problem is the entire system. turnrate, weapons, hull, shields, bridge offiver abilities, etc... everything was just thrown together just carelessly. their values are not balanced.
I think there's a huge misconception that everyone asking for a small increase in the turn rate are pvpers and/or escort players. I've never pvped, and until there are some major changes to it that actually make it interesting I probably never will. I'm also not someone stuck on escorts escorts escorts and a dps fanatic.
I am a simple player that loves the D'deridex and think it only needs a slight tweak of 1-2 points max added to the turn rate. I don't want to have to rely on cloaking every time to be able to turn, but I don't want sci or escort speeds either like some are suggesting.
Would adding 1-2 points to the turn rate really break anything? If it would I'd love to know what because I've been playing this game since F2P launch and I honestly can't think of one thing such a minor increase would affect.
^ this. Sadly, however, this post will likely be ignored by trolls like Snoggy because it contains valid info and rational arguments.
It is not really bragging. It is stating a fact that ESTFs aren't hard.
For months when I started playing, I had heard how they were the end game, hardest thing to do, sort of thing. I was actually a little intimidated to actually try one. I watched videos of people doing them, and it seemed you needed endless amounts of cooperation to even attempt them.
Then I tried one,
I had spent months and months tweaking my build and ships for pvp. It turns out that a pvp build is WAY overkill for ESTFs.
You think its bragging, but honestly its not. I have done hundreds of them by now and I can count on one hand the amount of people who actually know how to use their ship.
People who die to the gate, or a tac cube or even a standard cube just astound me. Dieing to one once a map or so is no big deal, as we all make mistakes. But the people who die 4, 5, 6 times in one STF....it happens every time I play one and I can't comprehend why.
But then I see comments in threads like this (not necessarily yours) where people are saying this ship's turn is fine, and it all makes sense. The vast majority of people are simply content with a fraction of their potential.
The hard part of the ESTFs is not the missions, it's the people you're randomly tossed in with if you don't have a known group to run with.
ISE is the easiest to get the optional on because you only need one person who knows what they're doing (and packs a bit of crowd control) to lock down the spheres when someone ignores strategy and just blows up a generator at random rather than burning them all at once. As long as the rest of the group has enough DPS and focuses it on the generators/transformer rather than getting distracted by the spheres, I can keep the nanite spheres away long enough for them to do the job...but I will usually die, because I'm putting all my efforts into locking down those spheres, and usually Tractor Beam Repulsors wil tick off the gateway in the process...and if it doesn't, when the transformer goes down, I suddenly have aggro on EVERY sphere and usually burned Evasive Maneuvers getting over to lock them down in the first place. I'm tough for a science ship, but having a dozen spheres focus firing on one quadrant? Yeah. But the worst part is knowing that that death would have been unnecessary if people had just fullowed the tactics...maybe actually turned on their team channel and paid attention to it.
KASE is similar, but you need two people who know what they're doing + DPS. CSE is almost impossible because you need EVERYONE drawing from the same playbook, and that almost never happens in PUGs (worse yet, the people who know how to do the run and are sick of getting stuck with players who cause you to fail because they play it like CS normal tend not to play it, leaving even fewer people to spread the word on how to do it right).
And remember, people dying isn't necessarily their fault. I die in ISE because I'm patching other people's messes. I'm dying because my science ship can't help stealing aggro from the poorly tuned rainbow beamboat and I can't always get away once all my heals, defensive buffs, etc. are on cooldown.
As for the D'deridex, why do I have the feeling you looked at the base turn number and then never actually tried it? RCS consoles help a lot more now, and the cloak is an enormous benefit to turn rate...which you can use in combat. If you can't turn when you need to, you're not planning far enough ahead. You have a tool to boost your turn rate enormously that no other cruiser has access to, but no, you want more. Because only people who die 4/5/6 times in STFs settle for using the (unique) tools they HAVE instead of demanding MORE.
KASE is similar, but you need two people who know what they're doing + DPS. CSE is almost impossible because you need EVERYONE drawing from the same playbook, and that almost never happens in PUGs (worse yet, the people who know how to do the run and are sick of getting stuck with players who cause you to fail because they play it like CS normal tend not to play it, leaving even fewer people to spread the word on how to do it right).
Cure Space Elite can be done with Cure Space Normal tactics. You just have to be able to kill the Raptors quickly and efficiently. The only thing I have seen people 'fail' at the most is popping a second layer sphere and spawning the Negh'Var and Raptor without finishing the first layer completely.
As for the D'deridex, why do I have the feeling you looked at the base turn number and then never actually tried it? RCS consoles help a lot more now, and the cloak is an enormous benefit to turn rate...which you can use in combat. If you can't turn when you need to, you're not planning far enough ahead. You have a tool to boost your turn rate enormously that no other cruiser has access to, but no, you want more. Because only people who die 4/5/6 times in STFs settle for using the (unique) tools they HAVE instead of demanding MORE.
RCS's being useful is a new thing and will take some time before people pull them out of the 'EPS Transfer Conduit and RCS' bin and try them instead of putting yet another layer of Neutronium on.
Battle Cloak taking down shields is a valid concern, one that can be somewhat mitigated by 'Brace for Impact' in most situations. Combine that with a cruiser-strength hull and it might just be viable in Pvp.
I am looking forward to making a D'Deridex that works as well as I've made my Excelsior work. Put enough effort, research and gearing into it and any ship can do well in the game.
As for the D'deridex, why do I have the feeling you looked at the base turn number and then never actually tried it? RCS consoles help a lot more now, and the cloak is an enormous benefit to turn rate...which you can use in combat. If you can't turn when you need to, you're not planning far enough ahead. You have a tool to boost your turn rate enormously that no other cruiser has access to, but no, you want more. Because only people who die 4/5/6 times in STFs settle for using the (unique) tools they HAVE instead of demanding MORE.
Yes, I know RCS consoles help a lot more now, as well as SIT and Tachyo. I know exactly how much they help now because I know the numbers. On holodeck right now, trying to even use dual beams with an 18 turn on a fed cruiser is a pain in the butt, as you get just one escort zipping around and no matter how much APO, APA, EM or A2D you employ, 18 turn its just not threatening, especially when you have to sacrifice all of your eng slots for RCS and another slot for a tachyo to get it. With all of the changes to RCS, the turn of the D'd ends up being slightly worse on tribble while using every single slot dedicated to turn, than I have on holodeck with an 8 base.
I would hardly call a console that boosts the turn by 2 enormous though. now if it added that +2 straight to the BASE turn, then this whole thing would be moot, but it doesn't. anything that boosts turn by a percentage goes off the base. That console is now just honestly a zen paid for RCS console really, as it boosts by nearly the same, which is kind of lame to be honest, so I disagree that its something that no other cruiser has access to.
Battle Cloaking to boost your turn is a gimmick, and a poor substitute for a high base turn. Yes, it can be a nice tool, but enough people know how to counter battle cloak. There are threads and threads on how to do it, and it will become even more mainstream once everyone and their brother is using it. There is so much potential in the romulan ships for escorts to be rocking EWP, and you are going to start seeing a hell of a lot more stealth-counter builds. Once that happens, it might as well not even have battle cloak.
This is not a complaint about battle cloak or anything, don't get me wrong. But taking a mechanic that is so absolutely vital to be competitive in this game (turn rate), and place it on another mechanic that can and will be easily countered, and you have just basically stripped all reason to use the ship. The D'deridex will become a novelty ship like the Gal-X and even the Gal-R. You guys want to hold on to the belief that you know how to play and can make it awesome, hey great. Just don't be surprised when it joins the "joke" fleet.
But, given the types of comments here, most of you don't care about PvP, or a ship being competitive or not, so you have embraced the ship despite its very obvious shortcomings. They keep balancing he game around PvE, and nobody can figure out why PvP is becoming less fun with each update/gear set/reputation/ship.
Honestly, I've never really thought much for PvP. I find it generally brings out the worst in people, and the worst KIND of people. Given that there's no real purpose to PvP in this or really any other game (except Warhammer Online), there's little reason to PvP in STO other than to stroke one's e-peen.
Despite that, however, I actually want to learn PvP once LoR launches as I intend to make my FedRom my new main. I wanted to use the D'Deridex, as I've always favored "battleship" type vessels in any space game, but cruisers just...don't have that battleship feel. They're big and slow, but not really that much tougher than escorts and with less than half the damage output. Now I'll be the first to admit my lack of knowledge and experience in regards to PvP, but I've been playing this game since beta and have accomplished pretty much everything there *is* to accomplish in regard to PvE (yeah, I know it's not hard, shut up). I don't post often, despite being a Lifer since beta, because I prefer to regard the forums as a research tool rather than social interaction (mostly because I find "people", as a general rule, to be insufferably stupid, moreso when given anonymity).
This, however, is a subject I watch closely and have opinions about myself. Fed cruisers have always had horrific turn rates with no compensation for that weakness, with the exception of the god-awfully ugly Excelsior. Seriously, that thing belongs in a museum, not active duty. Why is it one of the best cruisers in the game? Nobody here is asking for the D'D, or any other cruisers for that matter, to turn like Escorts. Frankly, I HATE Escorts. Their playstyle bores the **** out of me. I want to play Star Trek, not Ace Combat. The KDF has always had cruisers with excellent turn rates to utilize their ability to equip DHCs, and when Feds complained about the poor turn rate of their own cruisers, KDF bitched up a storm with cries of "L2P noob" and yet they refuse to touch the Bortas because *le gasp* it has a horrible turn rate. People like Snoggy talk ****, jump to conclusions, put words in people's mouths, and make general asses of themselves, "calling them out" on requests that they're not making. Nobody is asking for the D'Deridex to turn like Escorts. We just want it to turn better than it does.
Honestly, I've never really thought much for PvP. I find it generally brings out the worst in people, and the worst KIND of people. Given that there's no real purpose to PvP in this or really any other game (except Warhammer Online), there's little reason to PvP in STO other than to stroke one's e-peen.
Despite that, however, I actually want to learn PvP once LoR launches as I intend to make my FedRom my new main. I wanted to use the D'Deridex, as I've always favored "battleship" type vessels in any space game, but cruisers just...don't have that battleship feel. They're big and slow, but not really that much tougher than escorts and with less than half the damage output. Now I'll be the first to admit my lack of knowledge and experience in regards to PvP, but I've been playing this game since beta and have accomplished pretty much everything there *is* to accomplish in regard to PvE (yeah, I know it's not hard, shut up). I don't post often, despite being a Lifer since beta, because I prefer to regard the forums as a research tool rather than social interaction (mostly because I find "people", as a general rule, to be insufferably stupid, moreso when given anonymity).
This, however, is a subject I watch closely and have opinions about myself. Fed cruisers have always had horrific turn rates with no compensation for that weakness, with the exception of the god-awfully ugly Excelsior. Seriously, that thing belongs in a museum, not active duty. Why is it one of the best cruisers in the game? Nobody here is asking for the D'D, or any other cruisers for that matter, to turn like Escorts. Frankly, I HATE Escorts. Their playstyle bores the **** out of me. I want to play Star Trek, not Ace Combat. The KDF has always had cruisers with excellent turn rates to utilize their ability to equip DHCs, and when Feds complained about the poor turn rate of their own cruisers, KDF bitched up a storm with cries of "L2P noob" and yet they refuse to touch the Bortas because *le gasp* it has a horrible turn rate. People like Snoggy talk ****, jump to conclusions, put words in people's mouths, and make general asses of themselves, "calling them out" on requests that they're not making. Nobody is asking for the D'Deridex to turn like Escorts. We just want it to turn better than it does.
You keep calling me a troll. And insulting me. Yet in this very post you do all of those things you accuse me of doing.
Let's just start with the single biggest piece of misniformation you've posted here:
They're big and slow, but not really that much tougher than escorts and with less than half the damage output.
It's your contention that cruisers do less than half the DPS of Escorts?
But, given the types of comments here, most of you don't care about PvP, or a ship being competitive or not, so you have embraced the ship despite its very obvious shortcomings. They keep balancing he game around PvE, and nobody can figure out why PvP is becoming less fun with each update/gear set/reputation/ship.
You are correct in that the D'Deridex is not a competitive ship for PvP.
However, is that a problem with the ship? Competitive PvP is a niche interest at best and in my opinion one of the least fun ways to PvP.
Fun is a subjective argument. I still see Galaxies, Gal-X's and Bort's being flown despite their shortcomings, even in E-stf's. If they buff their turn rate then sweet, bonus turn. If not? Some will still find them fun.
Snoggy's ignoring us because we aren't making ridiculous requests and justifying them with half-truths, gross exaggerations, and out right lies.
"They're big and slow, but not really that much tougher than escorts and with less than half the damage output."
So Cryptic should up the turn rate of the D'Deridex because cruisers put out less than half the damage output of escorts?
Even though many cruiser pilots swear by DPS parses that say otherwise?
But I'm the one that's a troll?
Riiiiiiiight.
I know one of the more vocal proponents in this thread for how bad the D'Deridex is is Don'tdrunkimshoot. I'd love to hear drunk's commentary on how bad cruiser DPS is.
Have at it people! Show me how bad cruiser DPS is. Drop the math on me. And the parses. If Cruiser DPS is LESS THAN HALF of what Escort DPS is, maybe I'll change my tune?
Reposting an earlier post. Why? Because throughout the last couple of pages this is one of the only posts that isn't utterly off topic and is completely unbiased towards a specific game content (ie PVP/PVE/STF, etc) so there are no valid claims of favoring change or not changing based on this.
I think there's a huge misconception that everyone asking for a small increase in the turn rate are pvpers and/or escort players. I've never pvped, and until there are some major changes to it that actually make it interesting I probably never will. I'm also not someone stuck on escorts escorts escorts and a dps fanatic.
I am a simple player that loves the D'deridex and think it only needs a slight tweak of 1-2 points max added to the turn rate. I don't want to have to rely on cloaking every time to be able to turn, but I don't want sci or escort speeds either like some are suggesting.
Would adding 1-2 points to the turn rate really break anything? If it would I'd love to know what because I've been playing this game since F2P launch and I honestly can't think of one thing such a minor increase would affect.
Perhaps if there were more valid "in-game" points being discussed and less bashing each other and irrelevant talk of "canon", the Devs might actually weight in on this either way. Right now this thread is resembling a kindergarten playground rather than a serious conversation about something some feel needs to be changed and others don't.
I think there's a huge misconception that everyone asking for a small increase in the turn rate are pvpers and/or escort players. I've never pvped, and until there are some major changes to it that actually make it interesting I probably never will. I'm also not someone stuck on escorts escorts escorts and a dps fanatic.
I am a simple player that loves the D'deridex and think it only needs a slight tweak of 1-2 points max added to the turn rate. I don't want to have to rely on cloaking every time to be able to turn, but I don't want sci or escort speeds either like some are suggesting.
Would adding 1-2 points to the turn rate really break anything? If it would I'd love to know what because I've been playing this game since F2P launch and I honestly can't think of one thing such a minor increase would affect.
^ this. Sadly, however, this post will likely be ignored by trolls like Snoggy because it contains valid info and rational arguments.
Or does it?
I'm a long time player of the Free Oddy. To me.... a "dismal" turn rate isn't anything particularly bothersome. Then again.... I actually USE my Eng skills.... I'm also not afraid to disco everything in sight. Why? Because I know my ship can handle attracting aggro from multiple enemies. I have no problem flying the D'D or Ha'apax as-is. I don't even bother with RCS consoles....
Have at it people! Show me how bad cruiser DPS is. Drop the math on me. And the parses. If Cruiser DPS is LESS THAN HALF of what Escort DPS is, maybe I'll change my tune?
I'm a long time player of the Free Oddy. To me.... a "dismal" turn rate isn't anything particularly bothersome. Then again.... I actually USE my Eng skills.... I'm also not afraid to disco everything in sight. Why? Because I know my ship can handle attracting aggro from multiple enemies. I have no problem flying the D'D or Ha'apax as-is. I don't even bother with RCS consoles....
Space whale has a higher turn rate, granted only .5. If you want to look at the broader aspect of the topic no cruiser should be .5-1 point above a carrier, so even the Space Whale should get a point point boost. There's a huge divide between turn rates for escorts/sci and cruisers, but very little between some cruisers and carriers. Carriers make up for this by sheer numbers of fighters combined with carrier weapons. Yes cruisers have more hull, but they should be able to place a few good hits too, but the lower turn rates can be very preventative when it comes to lower firing arc weapons.
But then again back to a point that was completely ignored, what game breaking damage would there be in a 1-2 point increase?
::chuckles:: Only in the federation.. There are always exceptions to every rule. Players who pour over data to tweak their ships to the absolute maximum that can be gotten. i've seen an escort on the fed side that could one shot a cube and whose shields regened in less than ten seconds. ive seen a plethora of cruisers do the same.. my bortusqu?? its a battering ram and little more.. My escort?/ its not bad but not spectacular. my Armitage on the tribble side?/ maybe it doesnt one shot a cube, but, it definitely leaves an impression..
If the d'dederix turnrate increses then the battle cloak has to go in favor of a normal cloak. Sorry but it would be imbalanced otherwise since you'd get cannons + FIVE clickables on a ship with high survivability...
Space whale has a higher turn rate, granted only .5. If you want to look at the broader aspect of the topic no cruiser should be .5-1 point above a carrier, so even the Space Whale should get a point point boost. There's a huge divide between turn rates for escorts/sci and cruisers, but very little between some cruisers and carriers. Carriers make up for this by sheer numbers of fighters combined with carrier weapons. Yes cruisers have more hull, but they should be able to place a few good hits too, but the lower turn rates can be very preventative when it comes to lower firing arc weapons.
But then again back to a point that was completely ignored, what game breaking damage would there be in a 1-2 point increase?
Would it hurt something? dunno, but.... the "Space Whale" as you called it is tougher and slower than most heavy cruisers. this tells me the Dracon is at least partly correct.
If the d'dederix turnrate increses then the battle cloak has to go in favor of a normal cloak. Sorry but it would be imbalanced otherwise since you'd get cannons + FIVE clickables on a ship with high survivability...
Yeah, this.... I was able to tank those Elachi cone weapons reliably. And that was with a "dismal" turn rate.
If the d'dederix turnrate increses then the battle cloak has to go in favor of a normal cloak. Sorry but it would be imbalanced otherwise since you'd get cannons + FIVE clickables on a ship with high survivability...
Why?? the D'Dex has always been superior to any federation ships of the 23rd century.. Please dont cry foul because all of a sudden theres a ship to be fearful of.. I personally dont like the D'Dex, or cruisers in general. I'll never fly them. I like escorts and warbirds and getting in close and intimate. Cant do that well in a cruiser ( any cruiser ). The thing is, regardless of what the D'Dex can do, I've seen federation builds that make it look silly. One shot-ing borg cubes for example.. With power like that, theres nothing to be afraid of, and any argument of in-equality becomes meaningless..
Why?? the D'Dex has always been superior to any federation ships of the 23rd century.. Please dont cry foul because all of a sudden theres a ship to be fearful of.. I personally dont like the D'Dex, or cruisers in general. I'll never fly them. I like escorts and warbirds and getting in close and intimate. Cant do that well in a cruiser ( any cruiser ). The thing is, regardless of what the D'Dex can do, I've seen federation builds that make it look silly. One shot-ing borg cubes for example.. With power like that, theres nothing to be afraid of, and any argument of in-equality becomes meaningless..
Um.... all I got from this was "I'm an outraged fanboy."
Personally, I LOVE cruisers. Escorts.... not so much. Battlecruisers are good though.
Why?? the D'Dex has always been superior to any federation ships of the 23rd century.. Please dont cry foul because all of a sudden theres a ship to be fearful of.. I personally dont like the D'Dex, or cruisers in general. I'll never fly them. I like escorts and warbirds and getting in close and intimate. Cant do that well in a cruiser ( any cruiser ). The thing is, regardless of what the D'Dex can do, I've seen federation builds that make it look silly. One shot-ing borg cubes for example.. With power like that, theres nothing to be afraid of, and any argument of in-equality becomes meaningless..
Yeah in the 23rd but not in the 24th....
And the game now plays in the 25th.
My GalX is one of those cube one shotters too, it also suffers a bad turnrate for something that can use cannons though, and said one shot does not even always hit if you don't use tractor beam.
And yeah you have seen build like that, but let me use your own argument about one shot ships : What stops D'dederix flyiers from making the same build? - Nothing
You also forget that the D'dederix is a lot bigger than a Galaxy Class ship and it is thus logical that the galaxy would be morre maneuverable than a D'dederix.
The Galaxy and the D'dederix were pretty even btw . A sovereign was even stronger than it.
Um.... all I got from this was "I'm an outraged fanboy."
Personally, I LOVE cruisers. Escorts.... not so much. Battlecruisers are good though.
ROFLMAO... I'm neither a fanboy nor outraged.. I have my style and you have yours which is fine, but your estimation of me while bordering on insulting, is also way off mark..
The Galaxy and the D'dederix were pretty even btw . A sovereign was even stronger than it.
yeahh, your right, because outside 9f that one escort, its always the Sovys that are one hitting the cubes.. I truly believe they are without equal in this game..
I know one of the more vocal proponents in this thread for how bad the D'Deridex is is Don'tdrunkimshoot. I'd love to hear drunk's commentary on how bad cruiser DPS is.
Have at it people! Show me how bad cruiser DPS is. Drop the math on me. And the parses. If Cruiser DPS is LESS THAN HALF of what Escort DPS is, maybe I'll change my tune?
ah, dps. please dont tell me thats what you think is the problem here, that cruisers cant DPS well, because they kinda can. but DPS is worthless, all the power creep killed it.
apply DPS and time and you win all pve. its not that simple in pvp. 10k dps cruisers in pve will only have about 500-2000 DPS in pvp, with the resistance levels you actually deal about 50-25% of your listed damage to the target. your target's heals, regeneration, proc heals, and sky high resistance levels out heals that gradual, constant DPS faster then it is applied.
it has nothing to do with how high the DPS you can produce is, its all about the delivery. if its front loaded, like it is from BO and DHCs, you can remove an entire shield faceing in a single cycle. gradual pressure damage has to deal with manual distribution transferring shields when it deals damage, it has to shoot through all 4 facings before it will get a shot at hull. DHC and other spike can get to hull on demand, pressure never can, never damage hull, and thus never actually hurt your target.
it doesn't mater how high the DPS is, if its totally ineffective. pressure damage has a net of 0 damage dealing as a result. any amount of cross healing makes pressure damage do less then nothing, in so that it sets off proc heals on your target, your better off not fireing energy weapons if you are flying a heal boat.
not being about to be flown like a battle cruiser with escort weapons makes the d'deridex TRIBBLE. all i want is it to move as well as a negvar, the fattest usable battle cruiser.
ROFLMAO... I'm neither a fanboy nor outraged.. I have my style and you have yours which is fine, but your estimation of me while bordering on insulting, is also way off mark..
ORLY? Much of your argument was from a strictly in-universe perspective, thus fanboy.
But that's beside the point. My point was that your post had more to do with in-universe comparisons than game balance. I get that you don't like heavy cruisers. Personally, I disagree with this, but whatevs....
ah, dps. please dont tell me thats what you think is the problem here, that cruisers cant DPS well, because they kinda can. but DPS is worthless, all the power creep killed it.
apply DPS and time and you win all pve. its not that simple in pvp. 10k dps cruisers in pve will only have about 500-2000 DPS in pvp, with the resistance levels you actually deal about 50-25% of your listed damage to the target. your target's heals, regeneration, proc heals, and sky high resistance levels out heals that gradual, constant DPS faster then it is applied.
it has nothing to do with how high the DPS you can produce is, its all about the delivery. if its front loaded, like it is from BO and DHCs, you can remove an entire shield faceing in a single cycle. gradual pressure damage has to deal with manual distribution transferring shields when it deals damage, it has to shoot through all 4 facings before it will get a shot at hull. DHC and other spike can get to hull on demand, pressure never can, never damage hull, and thus never actually hurt your target.
it doesn't mater how high the DPS is, if its totally ineffective. pressure damage has a net of 0 damage dealing as a result. any amount of cross healing makes pressure damage do less then nothing, in so that it sets off proc heals on your target, your better off not fireing energy weapons if you are flying a heal boat.
not being about to be flown like a battle cruiser with escort weapons makes the d'deridex TRIBBLE. all i want is it to move as well as a negvar, the fattest usable battle cruiser.
So, here's the thing. I keep getting attacked, insulted and called a troll. But what this entire discussion keeps boiling down to is people don't like to turn slow. When questioned about if the ship is ineffective, I get told this:
"They're big and slow, but not really that much tougher than escorts and with less than half the damage output."
So really, what's the deal drunk? Are cruisers that bad at deeps? If so, then I'm all for bumping up their agility.
But I've been led to believe that cruisers are not bad at deeps. That they can do all kinds of neat deeps tricks. And that it's escorts that are hard pressed to keep up with cruisers.
If that's the case, then this ship, which is heavily tac focused, would seem to be ... I guess the word I'm looking for is ... fine?
The entirety of this thread has boiled down to two reasons to buff its turn rate:
1- Personal preference. People don't like turning slow.
2- Cruisers are bad at DEEPs.
I don't find reason 1 to be something that will compel the developers to change the ship. Especially since it has a built in trick (it's own battle cloak) to help overcome that. And isn't there a console set bonus to boost the innate turn-rate?
I would find reason 2 compelling to push for increased agility. But everything I've been told about cruisers is that their DEEPs is pretty good. With a ton of hyperbole mixed into the mix.
The only other thing I can think of is, people just want the excelsior layout with a D'Deridex skin. That's disappointing.
Alright I was firmly in the "D'deridex is fine" camp, but with the Tal Shiar Adapted Battle Cruiser having a turn rate of 7 despite being a D'deridex with a bunch of borg TRIBBLE bolted onto it, there's no logical reason left to keep the D'deridex at its current turn rate.
And don't say that the borg TRIBBLE makes it more maneuverable because the Tal Shiar Adapted Destroyer is a borg'd up Dhelan and that gets its turn rate knocked down to 11.
If the Warcrab turns at 7, the D'deridex should turn at at least 8 if not 9.
Alright I was firmly in the "D'deridex is fine" camp, but with the Tal Shiar Adapted Battle Cruiser having a turn rate of 7 despite being a D'deridex with a bunch of borg TRIBBLE bolted onto it, there's no logical reason left to keep the D'deridex at its current turn rate.
And don't say that the borg TRIBBLE makes it more maneuverable because the Tal Shiar Adapted Destroyer is a borg'd up Dhelan and that gets its turn rate knocked down to 11.
If the Warcrab turns at 7, the D'deridex should turn at at least 8 if not 9.
^This.
Also, Snoggy, thanks for proving my point. I made an entire post, yet you latch onto one line of obvious trollbait like it's all I've ever said and ignore everything else. Either take the whole post into account, or just stop talking.
Comments
Hrrrmm... No?
Sorry, but these few more Hullpoints are not much worth. With low turnrate your survival depends more on TT and EPTS. You can not turn away and your hull wont endure long. sorry, but you argument is wrong.
The problem is the entire system. turnrate, weapons, hull, shields, bridge offiver abilities, etc... everything was just thrown together just carelessly. their values are not balanced.
Did you miss the [/sarcasm]?
^ this. Sadly, however, this post will likely be ignored by trolls like Snoggy because it contains valid info and rational arguments.
The hard part of the ESTFs is not the missions, it's the people you're randomly tossed in with if you don't have a known group to run with.
ISE is the easiest to get the optional on because you only need one person who knows what they're doing (and packs a bit of crowd control) to lock down the spheres when someone ignores strategy and just blows up a generator at random rather than burning them all at once. As long as the rest of the group has enough DPS and focuses it on the generators/transformer rather than getting distracted by the spheres, I can keep the nanite spheres away long enough for them to do the job...but I will usually die, because I'm putting all my efforts into locking down those spheres, and usually Tractor Beam Repulsors wil tick off the gateway in the process...and if it doesn't, when the transformer goes down, I suddenly have aggro on EVERY sphere and usually burned Evasive Maneuvers getting over to lock them down in the first place. I'm tough for a science ship, but having a dozen spheres focus firing on one quadrant? Yeah. But the worst part is knowing that that death would have been unnecessary if people had just fullowed the tactics...maybe actually turned on their team channel and paid attention to it.
KASE is similar, but you need two people who know what they're doing + DPS. CSE is almost impossible because you need EVERYONE drawing from the same playbook, and that almost never happens in PUGs (worse yet, the people who know how to do the run and are sick of getting stuck with players who cause you to fail because they play it like CS normal tend not to play it, leaving even fewer people to spread the word on how to do it right).
And remember, people dying isn't necessarily their fault. I die in ISE because I'm patching other people's messes. I'm dying because my science ship can't help stealing aggro from the poorly tuned rainbow beamboat and I can't always get away once all my heals, defensive buffs, etc. are on cooldown.
As for the D'deridex, why do I have the feeling you looked at the base turn number and then never actually tried it? RCS consoles help a lot more now, and the cloak is an enormous benefit to turn rate...which you can use in combat. If you can't turn when you need to, you're not planning far enough ahead. You have a tool to boost your turn rate enormously that no other cruiser has access to, but no, you want more. Because only people who die 4/5/6 times in STFs settle for using the (unique) tools they HAVE instead of demanding MORE.
Cure Space Elite can be done with Cure Space Normal tactics. You just have to be able to kill the Raptors quickly and efficiently. The only thing I have seen people 'fail' at the most is popping a second layer sphere and spawning the Negh'Var and Raptor without finishing the first layer completely.
RCS's being useful is a new thing and will take some time before people pull them out of the 'EPS Transfer Conduit and RCS' bin and try them instead of putting yet another layer of Neutronium on.
Battle Cloak taking down shields is a valid concern, one that can be somewhat mitigated by 'Brace for Impact' in most situations. Combine that with a cruiser-strength hull and it might just be viable in Pvp.
I am looking forward to making a D'Deridex that works as well as I've made my Excelsior work. Put enough effort, research and gearing into it and any ship can do well in the game.
Yes, I know RCS consoles help a lot more now, as well as SIT and Tachyo. I know exactly how much they help now because I know the numbers. On holodeck right now, trying to even use dual beams with an 18 turn on a fed cruiser is a pain in the butt, as you get just one escort zipping around and no matter how much APO, APA, EM or A2D you employ, 18 turn its just not threatening, especially when you have to sacrifice all of your eng slots for RCS and another slot for a tachyo to get it. With all of the changes to RCS, the turn of the D'd ends up being slightly worse on tribble while using every single slot dedicated to turn, than I have on holodeck with an 8 base.
I would hardly call a console that boosts the turn by 2 enormous though. now if it added that +2 straight to the BASE turn, then this whole thing would be moot, but it doesn't. anything that boosts turn by a percentage goes off the base. That console is now just honestly a zen paid for RCS console really, as it boosts by nearly the same, which is kind of lame to be honest, so I disagree that its something that no other cruiser has access to.
Battle Cloaking to boost your turn is a gimmick, and a poor substitute for a high base turn. Yes, it can be a nice tool, but enough people know how to counter battle cloak. There are threads and threads on how to do it, and it will become even more mainstream once everyone and their brother is using it. There is so much potential in the romulan ships for escorts to be rocking EWP, and you are going to start seeing a hell of a lot more stealth-counter builds. Once that happens, it might as well not even have battle cloak.
This is not a complaint about battle cloak or anything, don't get me wrong. But taking a mechanic that is so absolutely vital to be competitive in this game (turn rate), and place it on another mechanic that can and will be easily countered, and you have just basically stripped all reason to use the ship. The D'deridex will become a novelty ship like the Gal-X and even the Gal-R. You guys want to hold on to the belief that you know how to play and can make it awesome, hey great. Just don't be surprised when it joins the "joke" fleet.
But, given the types of comments here, most of you don't care about PvP, or a ship being competitive or not, so you have embraced the ship despite its very obvious shortcomings. They keep balancing he game around PvE, and nobody can figure out why PvP is becoming less fun with each update/gear set/reputation/ship.
Despite that, however, I actually want to learn PvP once LoR launches as I intend to make my FedRom my new main. I wanted to use the D'Deridex, as I've always favored "battleship" type vessels in any space game, but cruisers just...don't have that battleship feel. They're big and slow, but not really that much tougher than escorts and with less than half the damage output. Now I'll be the first to admit my lack of knowledge and experience in regards to PvP, but I've been playing this game since beta and have accomplished pretty much everything there *is* to accomplish in regard to PvE (yeah, I know it's not hard, shut up). I don't post often, despite being a Lifer since beta, because I prefer to regard the forums as a research tool rather than social interaction (mostly because I find "people", as a general rule, to be insufferably stupid, moreso when given anonymity).
This, however, is a subject I watch closely and have opinions about myself. Fed cruisers have always had horrific turn rates with no compensation for that weakness, with the exception of the god-awfully ugly Excelsior. Seriously, that thing belongs in a museum, not active duty. Why is it one of the best cruisers in the game? Nobody here is asking for the D'D, or any other cruisers for that matter, to turn like Escorts. Frankly, I HATE Escorts. Their playstyle bores the **** out of me. I want to play Star Trek, not Ace Combat. The KDF has always had cruisers with excellent turn rates to utilize their ability to equip DHCs, and when Feds complained about the poor turn rate of their own cruisers, KDF bitched up a storm with cries of "L2P noob" and yet they refuse to touch the Bortas because *le gasp* it has a horrible turn rate. People like Snoggy talk ****, jump to conclusions, put words in people's mouths, and make general asses of themselves, "calling them out" on requests that they're not making. Nobody is asking for the D'Deridex to turn like Escorts. We just want it to turn better than it does.
You keep calling me a troll. And insulting me. Yet in this very post you do all of those things you accuse me of doing.
Let's just start with the single biggest piece of misniformation you've posted here:
It's your contention that cruisers do less than half the DPS of Escorts?
You are correct in that the D'Deridex is not a competitive ship for PvP.
However, is that a problem with the ship? Competitive PvP is a niche interest at best and in my opinion one of the least fun ways to PvP.
Fun is a subjective argument. I still see Galaxies, Gal-X's and Bort's being flown despite their shortcomings, even in E-stf's. If they buff their turn rate then sweet, bonus turn. If not? Some will still find them fun.
"They're big and slow, but not really that much tougher than escorts and with less than half the damage output."
So Cryptic should up the turn rate of the D'Deridex because cruisers put out less than half the damage output of escorts?
Even though many cruiser pilots swear by DPS parses that say otherwise?
But I'm the one that's a troll?
Riiiiiiiight.
I know one of the more vocal proponents in this thread for how bad the D'Deridex is is Don'tdrunkimshoot. I'd love to hear drunk's commentary on how bad cruiser DPS is.
Have at it people! Show me how bad cruiser DPS is. Drop the math on me. And the parses. If Cruiser DPS is LESS THAN HALF of what Escort DPS is, maybe I'll change my tune?
I think there's a huge misconception that everyone asking for a small increase in the turn rate are pvpers and/or escort players. I've never pvped, and until there are some major changes to it that actually make it interesting I probably never will. I'm also not someone stuck on escorts escorts escorts and a dps fanatic.
I am a simple player that loves the D'deridex and think it only needs a slight tweak of 1-2 points max added to the turn rate. I don't want to have to rely on cloaking every time to be able to turn, but I don't want sci or escort speeds either like some are suggesting.
Would adding 1-2 points to the turn rate really break anything? If it would I'd love to know what because I've been playing this game since F2P launch and I honestly can't think of one thing such a minor increase would affect.
Perhaps if there were more valid "in-game" points being discussed and less bashing each other and irrelevant talk of "canon", the Devs might actually weight in on this either way. Right now this thread is resembling a kindergarten playground rather than a serious conversation about something some feel needs to be changed and others don't.
I'm a long time player of the Free Oddy. To me.... a "dismal" turn rate isn't anything particularly bothersome. Then again.... I actually USE my Eng skills.... I'm also not afraid to disco everything in sight. Why? Because I know my ship can handle attracting aggro from multiple enemies. I have no problem flying the D'D or Ha'apax as-is. I don't even bother with RCS consoles....
My character Tsin'xing
My character Tsin'xing
Space whale has a higher turn rate, granted only .5. If you want to look at the broader aspect of the topic no cruiser should be .5-1 point above a carrier, so even the Space Whale should get a point point boost. There's a huge divide between turn rates for escorts/sci and cruisers, but very little between some cruisers and carriers. Carriers make up for this by sheer numbers of fighters combined with carrier weapons. Yes cruisers have more hull, but they should be able to place a few good hits too, but the lower turn rates can be very preventative when it comes to lower firing arc weapons.
But then again back to a point that was completely ignored, what game breaking damage would there be in a 1-2 point increase?
Who in the hell pulled that one out of their asss?? I'd guesstimate it's probably more around 75% depending on your build and such.
My character Tsin'xing
Why?? the D'Dex has always been superior to any federation ships of the 23rd century.. Please dont cry foul because all of a sudden theres a ship to be fearful of.. I personally dont like the D'Dex, or cruisers in general. I'll never fly them. I like escorts and warbirds and getting in close and intimate. Cant do that well in a cruiser ( any cruiser ). The thing is, regardless of what the D'Dex can do, I've seen federation builds that make it look silly. One shot-ing borg cubes for example.. With power like that, theres nothing to be afraid of, and any argument of in-equality becomes meaningless..
Personally, I LOVE cruisers.
My character Tsin'xing
Yeah in the 23rd but not in the 24th....
And the game now plays in the 25th.
My GalX is one of those cube one shotters too, it also suffers a bad turnrate for something that can use cannons though, and said one shot does not even always hit if you don't use tractor beam.
And yeah you have seen build like that, but let me use your own argument about one shot ships : What stops D'dederix flyiers from making the same build? - Nothing
You also forget that the D'dederix is a lot bigger than a Galaxy Class ship and it is thus logical that the galaxy would be morre maneuverable than a D'dederix.
The Galaxy and the D'dederix were pretty even btw
ROFLMAO... I'm neither a fanboy nor outraged.. I have my style and you have yours which is fine, but your estimation of me while bordering on insulting, is also way off mark..
yeahh, your right, because outside 9f that one escort, its always the Sovys that are one hitting the cubes.. I truly believe they are without equal in this game..
ah, dps. please dont tell me thats what you think is the problem here, that cruisers cant DPS well, because they kinda can. but DPS is worthless, all the power creep killed it.
apply DPS and time and you win all pve. its not that simple in pvp. 10k dps cruisers in pve will only have about 500-2000 DPS in pvp, with the resistance levels you actually deal about 50-25% of your listed damage to the target. your target's heals, regeneration, proc heals, and sky high resistance levels out heals that gradual, constant DPS faster then it is applied.
it has nothing to do with how high the DPS you can produce is, its all about the delivery. if its front loaded, like it is from BO and DHCs, you can remove an entire shield faceing in a single cycle. gradual pressure damage has to deal with manual distribution transferring shields when it deals damage, it has to shoot through all 4 facings before it will get a shot at hull. DHC and other spike can get to hull on demand, pressure never can, never damage hull, and thus never actually hurt your target.
it doesn't mater how high the DPS is, if its totally ineffective. pressure damage has a net of 0 damage dealing as a result. any amount of cross healing makes pressure damage do less then nothing, in so that it sets off proc heals on your target, your better off not fireing energy weapons if you are flying a heal boat.
not being about to be flown like a battle cruiser with escort weapons makes the d'deridex TRIBBLE. all i want is it to move as well as a negvar, the fattest usable battle cruiser.
But that's beside the point. My point was that your post had more to do with in-universe comparisons than game balance. I get that you don't like heavy cruisers. Personally, I disagree with this, but whatevs....
My character Tsin'xing
So, here's the thing. I keep getting attacked, insulted and called a troll. But what this entire discussion keeps boiling down to is people don't like to turn slow. When questioned about if the ship is ineffective, I get told this:
"They're big and slow, but not really that much tougher than escorts and with less than half the damage output."
So really, what's the deal drunk? Are cruisers that bad at deeps? If so, then I'm all for bumping up their agility.
But I've been led to believe that cruisers are not bad at deeps. That they can do all kinds of neat deeps tricks. And that it's escorts that are hard pressed to keep up with cruisers.
If that's the case, then this ship, which is heavily tac focused, would seem to be ... I guess the word I'm looking for is ... fine?
The entirety of this thread has boiled down to two reasons to buff its turn rate:
1- Personal preference. People don't like turning slow.
2- Cruisers are bad at DEEPs.
I don't find reason 1 to be something that will compel the developers to change the ship. Especially since it has a built in trick (it's own battle cloak) to help overcome that. And isn't there a console set bonus to boost the innate turn-rate?
I would find reason 2 compelling to push for increased agility. But everything I've been told about cruisers is that their DEEPs is pretty good. With a ton of hyperbole mixed into the mix.
The only other thing I can think of is, people just want the excelsior layout with a D'Deridex skin. That's disappointing.
And don't say that the borg TRIBBLE makes it more maneuverable because the Tal Shiar Adapted Destroyer is a borg'd up Dhelan and that gets its turn rate knocked down to 11.
If the Warcrab turns at 7, the D'deridex should turn at at least 8 if not 9.
^This.
Also, Snoggy, thanks for proving my point. I made an entire post, yet you latch onto one line of obvious trollbait like it's all I've ever said and ignore everything else. Either take the whole post into account, or just stop talking.