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Fix the turn rate for the D'Deridex

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  • snoggymack22snoggymack22 Member Posts: 7,084 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    cha0s1428 wrote: »
    I don't need a guide on flying low turn ships. I just don't enjoy it, as there are plenty of other cruisers that don't get saddled with that issue.

    There's a big difference between what you're supposedly complaining about (the ship's turn rate needs to be buffed because it is not an effective ship) and what you just said there.

    So you want to turn faster because you don't enjoy turning slow?

    That's a whole other enchilada. The ship is fine. You may not enjoy the playstyle of it, but it's an effective ship.

    If you want to turn faster, you should probably fly a JHAS anyways. It turns really fast.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • cha0s1428cha0s1428 Member Posts: 416 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    There's a big difference between what you're supposedly complaining about (the ship's turn rate needs to be buffed because it is not an effective ship) and what you just said there.

    So you want to turn faster because you don't enjoy turning slow?

    That's a whole other enchilada. The ship is fine. You may not enjoy the playstyle of it, but it's an effective ship.

    If you want to turn faster, you should probably fly a JHAS anyways. It turns really fast.

    You're hyperbole is not amusing anymore mate.

    Your ignorance is truly astounding, or you are just a veteran troll. Either way, you still do not understand anything that I am saying.

    The ship is not a carrier, yet it has carrier turn rate. It has the boff layout of a battle cruiser, but it doesn't have the turn to be as effective as other battle cruisers.

    YOU MAY think it is fine, and a handful of other people do as well. That is fine. Just understand that other people will be able to employ other ships that do everything that the D'd can do, only better.

    Last time I checked, JHAS isn't a cruiser. I assumed you were aware of the general theme being about cruisers, specifically the D'd, but AGAIN, your ignorance is mind boggling.

    Adding +2 to the base of the D'd would give it 7.5. How, in any way shape or form what so ever, does that equate to asking for a 20 base?
  • snoggymack22snoggymack22 Member Posts: 7,084 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    cha0s1428 wrote: »
    You're hyperbole is not amusing anymore mate.

    Your ignorance is truly astounding, or you are just a veteran troll. Either way, you still do not understand anything that I am saying.

    How many more insults can you jam pack into one post? Yet none of it changes the facts.

    Fact: You don't enjoy turning slow.
    Fact: You don't enjoy the D'Deridex because it turns slow.

    That has nothing to do with the ship's effectiveness. Just your own enjoyment of it.

    Many testers have told you in this very thread that the ship is effective.

    I get it. You don't enjoy it. But that isn't a strong enough reason to change the ship. As those same testers have told you, to get the upped turn rate, it will lose other things in a tradeoff. Most likely get a BOFF setup that you won't enjoy.

    At this point just count your losses and fly something else.
    Last time I checked, JHAS isn't a cruiser.

    The JHAS has enough engineering capability that it doesn't really matter. It's the best ship in the game for what you find enjoyable. Not my fault that you act like a medieval monk and flagellate yourself by flying something you thoroughly dislike when you can easily switch to something that does everything you want to do in a fun, easy, enjoyable manner.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • cha0s1428cha0s1428 Member Posts: 416 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    How many more insults can you jam pack into one post? Yet none of it changes the facts.

    Fact: You don't enjoy turning slow.
    Fact: You don't enjoy the D'Deridex because it turns slow.

    That has nothing to do with the ship's effectiveness. Just your own enjoyment of it.

    Many testers have told you in this very thread that the ship is effective.

    I get it. You don't enjoy it. But that isn't a strong enough reason to change the ship. As those same testers have told you, to get the upped turn rate, it will lose other things in a tradeoff. Most likely get a BOFF setup that you won't enjoy.

    At this point just count your losses and fly something else.



    The JHAS has enough engineering capability that it doesn't really matter. It's the best ship in the game for what you find enjoyable. Not my fault that you act like a medieval monk and flagellate yourself by flying something you thoroughly dislike when you can easily switch to something that does everything you want to do in a fun, easy, enjoyable manner.

    There are no losses to cut. I will not be buying the ship, or flying the ship, or have anything to do with the ship. I didn't start this thread, so this is not my crusade. I am just restating that many people are unhappy with the turn rate of this ship, and they should be.

    There is no reason whatsoever to give the ship a 5.5 to begin with. BC and singularity powers apparently have no bearing on the balance of the other romulan ships turn or boff layout, so why is it that the Romulan cruisers are the ones that have to have an extra penalty? THAT has been the entire point I have been trying to make, but you seem stuck on the fact that I don't like the turn because I need to LtP.

    Yes, I don't like the turn. Yes I feel it is too slow to be able to use DHCs effectively. There are some PvErs and a PvPer here and there who disagree and that is fine. The claim to have a bag of tricks to make low turn rates effective. You can make low turn rate decent, but all of those tricks can be used on cruisers with better turn already to make them even more effective.

    Fact is, those many testers you speak of are PvErs, and well, yeah, everything is effective in pve. You can do an ESTF in an NX...or a shuttle.

    I have my other ships. I have my other cruisers. They have good turn rates for cruisers now with the RCS changes.

    Again, I have no loses to count. I just won't buy the ship, or play Romulan as they only offer 2 cruisers right now, both with the same TRIBBLE turn.

    Just don't be surprised in 6 months when you don't see many of these things flying around because they've all been mothballed.
  • snoggymack22snoggymack22 Member Posts: 7,084 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    cha0s1428 wrote: »
    There is no reason whatsoever to give the ship a 5.5 to begin with.

    Well besides the fact that all the Romulan Battlecruisers currently have 5 or 5.5 turn rates? The Ha'Apax, Haakona and the D'Deridex. Or just the whole flavor that all the Romulan ships turn slower than their Klignon and Federation foils? As if that's an intentional part of their flavor?

    Nah, couldn't be that.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    the D'D is the Romulan equivalent of a Heavy Cruiser. Heavy Cruisers are SLOW..... Them and carriers are the slowest turning ships in the game. Obviously you dislike that.... well, use a different ship.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • commandersalvekcommandersalvek Member Posts: 116 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Well besides the fact that all the Romulan Battlecruisers currently have 5 or 5.5 turn rates? The Ha'Apax, Haakona and the D'Deridex. Or just the whole flavor that all the Romulan ships turn slower than their Klignon and Federation foils? As if that's an intentional part of their flavor?

    Nah, couldn't be that.

    What flavour justifys that Romulan ships turn slower than Klingon or Federation equivalents?
  • yargomeshyargomesh Member Posts: 179 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    What flavour justifys that Romulan ships turn slower than Klingon or Federation equivalents?

    When you have the best cloaking technology in the galaxy why do you need to be nimble?

    Klingon's have to be nimble because they're all about attacking head-on.
    Federation is the jack-of-all-trades sort, so they have to be somewhat dexterous.
    Romulan's don't need to be nimble because they could appear anywhere. Even worse: they could have reinforcements you only know about right before taking all their opening salvo's at once.

    Game mechanics don't exactly match up with this unfortunately. I'd love to see some 'Oh TRIBBLE, that's no D'Deridex, that's three D'Deridex' moments in STO.
  • shaanithegreenshaanithegreen Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Fact is, those many testers you speak of are PvErs, and well, yeah, everything is effective in pve. You can do an ESTF in an NX...or a shuttle.

    Oh yeah? Well, I can do EST without turning my computer on! I simulate doing ISE solo without any ship at all! With a graphing calculator! While PVPing as an entire team on five different computers and beating all the best players in the game by myself! While dead!

    :rolleyes: People just can't resist the bragging, can they? Even when it doesn't make sense Yeah, you can beat an ESTF with four people flying real ships and one flying a shuttle or whatever. That's no different than beating it with just four people, which happens all the time because people's drop. Which I'm sure is something the missions are built with in mind. Sheesh.

    I'm going to fly the ship. If it gets a turn rate increase, that's super. If not, I'll learn to deal, just like everyone else who flies it.
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    theodrim wrote: »
    Fine there, too, the metagame just hasn't caught up to it yet.

    Just because it has battle cloak doesn't mean it should be flown like a BoP, just because it has DHC's doesn't mean it should be flown like an escort, and just because it has a cruiser's hull and turn rate doesn't mean it should be flown like one of those either.

    meta game hasn't caught up yet? the metagames moves at the speed of changes, and is perfectly aligned with what actually effective. all these ways you mentain its not supposed to be flown, your not leaving it a single effective way it can be flown.

    people that are inexperienced, and i guess kinda humble about it, are ignorant enough to assume that theres a way for everything that the masses complain about to be flown just fine. it isn't the case, and the more experience and knowledge you have, the less likely you are to blurt out oh thats fine, you all just need to change your play style, its you not the ship. to me, thats a tell. of someone who is not qualified to make any sort of judgement call about any of that.

    the margins for everything that actually works are very thin. some stat issues can be forgiven because they are made up something else. some stats can be lower then average without making a ship nonviable. sometimes theres an opportunity cost to fix a ships issues so that it can perform at a basic level, but that compensation has massive damning opportunity costs that make it wholly inferior to other options. other stats, if they are simply too low, ruin a ship utterly, so its not even possible to make it ok.

    the d'deridex and bortas are good examples of that last description. how well the bortas sold and how often it is used is in the history books now. theres no debating that that ship was a failure. of sure, you can pull off an impressive alpha stirke, same thing with the galaxy X. but guess what? those 1 trick ponies are a joke, and get laughed out of any team play, they serve no purpose, other then hunting loaners in cap and holds. the d'deridex will be joining those ranks as it is. of the 3, it will be the best for its ability to actually position for a decloak 10 times better then those other 2, but beyond that, it will still be a terrible ship. spending the vast majority of its time not able to do anything, wile any other war bird in its place can be fighting well the entire time.
  • longasclongasc Member Posts: 490
    edited May 2013
    The D'deridex is underperforming at Captain rank and it's unlikely to get better at max. It's very much like the Galaxy-Enterprise.

    You don't want to fly that in PvP, not even in a team based around compensating its shortcoming.

    On Tribble people could/can test it. The Mogai you get before an the Ha'feh you get after the D'deridex totally trash it, no matter what setup you try.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Cinnamon.

    :P

    I thought they were going with mint for LoR...
  • misterde3misterde3 Member Posts: 4,195 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    What flavour justifys that Romulan ships turn slower than Klingon or Federation equivalents?

    From the shows we know that small ships with a hingh poer warpcore are harder to hide under cloak (DS9: "The Search").
    And the Romulan ships pretty much dwarf their counterparts.
    The Mogai is actually the size of the Negh'var for example.
    So it seems pretty simple: Klingons build a good fighting platform and slap a cloak on.
    The Romulans build their ships around their cloaking devices.
  • cha0s1428cha0s1428 Member Posts: 416 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Oh yeah? Well, I can do EST without turning my computer on! I simulate doing ISE solo without any ship at all! With a graphing calculator! While PVPing as an entire team on five different computers and beating all the best players in the game by myself! While dead!

    :rolleyes: People just can't resist the bragging, can they? Even when it doesn't make sense Yeah, you can beat an ESTF with four people flying real ships and one flying a shuttle or whatever. That's no different than beating it with just four people, which happens all the time because people's drop. Which I'm sure is something the missions are built with in mind. Sheesh.

    I'm going to fly the ship. If it gets a turn rate increase, that's super. If not, I'll learn to deal, just like everyone else who flies it.

    It is not really bragging. It is stating a fact that ESTFs aren't hard.

    For months when I started playing, I had heard how they were the end game, hardest thing to do, sort of thing. I was actually a little intimidated to actually try one. I watched videos of people doing them, and it seemed you needed endless amounts of cooperation to even attempt them.

    Then I tried one,

    I had spent months and months tweaking my build and ships for pvp. It turns out that a pvp build is WAY overkill for ESTFs.

    You think its bragging, but honestly its not. I have done hundreds of them by now and I can count on one hand the amount of people who actually know how to use their ship.

    People who die to the gate, or a tac cube or even a standard cube just astound me. Dieing to one once a map or so is no big deal, as we all make mistakes. But the people who die 4, 5, 6 times in one STF....it happens every time I play one and I can't comprehend why.

    But then I see comments in threads like this (not necessarily yours) where people are saying this ship's turn is fine, and it all makes sense. The vast majority of people are simply content with a fraction of their potential.
  • mandoknight89mandoknight89 Member Posts: 1,687 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I thought they were going with mint for LoR...

    And that's why Romulan ships don't turn quickly. They're mint, not cinnamon. :P
  • roman1229roman1229 Member Posts: 185 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    wardcalis wrote: »
    Fix the turn rate for the D'Deridex, It is so bad, it's the greatest ship in startrek history and it's unplayable because of the turn.
    I just fitted a Warbird once i had reached Commander. That ship turns slower than the Galaxy Class, so if anyone has any suggestions they would be greatly appreciated.
  • focht666focht666 Member Posts: 0
    edited May 2013
    How many more insults can you jam pack into one post? Yet none of it changes the facts.

    Fact: You don't enjoy turning slow.
    Fact: You don't enjoy the D'Deridex because it turns slow.

    That has nothing to do with the ship's effectiveness. Just your own enjoyment of it.

    Many testers have told you in this very thread that the ship is effective.

    I get it. You don't enjoy it. But that isn't a strong enough reason to change the ship. As those same testers have told you, to get the upped turn rate, it will lose other things in a tradeoff. Most likely get a BOFF setup that you won't enjoy.

    At this point just count your losses and fly something else.



    The JHAS has enough engineering capability that it doesn't really matter. It's the best ship in the game for what you find enjoyable. Not my fault that you act like a medieval monk and flagellate yourself by flying something you thoroughly dislike when you can easily switch to something that does everything you want to do in a fun, easy, enjoyable manner.

    Fact its not effective. Its TRIBBLE.
    Fact its the only Romulan ship at Tier 4.
    Fact People have been playing Escorts up until it.
    Fact It never should have been given the same turn rate as a Carrier.

    Can people play it?
    Yes
    Does that mean we should?
    No
    Is there anything that makes up for its weaknesses?
    Not really, because it means sacrificing other things to make up for them.
    Do we have another choice for Romulans?
    Not if we want to fly a Romulan ship...

    So no we have to fly the TRIBBLE turn rate battlecruiser, because otherwise we won't be Romulans...
  • bunansabunansa Member Posts: 928 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    focht666 wrote: »
    Fact its not effective. Its TRIBBLE.
    Fact its the only Romulan ship at Tier 4.
    Fact People have been playing Escorts up until it.
    Fact It never should have been given the same turn rate as a Carrier.

    Can people play it?
    Yes
    Does that mean we should?
    No
    Is there anything that makes up for its weaknesses?
    Not really, because it means sacrificing other things to make up for them.
    Do we have another choice for Romulans?
    Not if we want to fly a Romulan ship...

    So no we have to fly the TRIBBLE turn rate battlecruiser, because otherwise we won't be Romulans...

    Fact escorts are not king L2P
    Fact its turn rate is fine, dont play it like a escort

    I will play it, it handles fine once again...L2P or use a diferent ship
    sacraficing other things??? LMAO L2P...battle cloak increases your turn rate..what are you sacraficing there? Evasive manuevers enhances turn...once again sacrafice what?
    Use attack pattern omega 1 for the ltc tac slot...fixxed
    use auxilliary to intertial dampners...fixxed

    Theres no other romulan ships eh? Ya your forced to fly the Big D if you want to be Romulan...k

    Redo your skills and strategies or just go back to escorts after 10 levels

    the ship is fine the way it is, I can solo elite tac cubes with it on test just fine
    tumblr_ndmkqm59J31r5ynioo2_r2_500.gif

  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    when i played the d'd during open beta i had no problems maneuvering and finding my target no matter how quickly it was going because i always played smart vs the NPC's. its not the worst ship i have ran across at all, even the carrier can be a beast by playing smart with not only the right use of captain skills, but boff layout and skills as well a bit of opportunistic last second thinking if needed.
    T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW.
    Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    focht666 wrote: »
    Fact its not effective. Its TRIBBLE.
    Fact its the only Romulan ship at Tier 4.
    Fact People have been playing Escorts up until it.
    Fact It never should have been given the same turn rate as a Carrier.

    Can people play it?
    Yes
    Does that mean we should?
    No
    Is there anything that makes up for its weaknesses?
    Not really, because it means sacrificing other things to make up for them.
    Do we have another choice for Romulans?
    Not if we want to fly a Romulan ship...

    So no we have to fly the TRIBBLE turn rate battlecruiser, because otherwise we won't be Romulans...
    You should learn to exploit it's strengths rather than ignorign their existence.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • begeracbegerac Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Can I put skin of D'Deridex on my Galor or DKora?

    Pretty please
  • cha0s1428cha0s1428 Member Posts: 416 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    bunansa wrote: »
    Fact escorts are not king L2P
    Fact its turn rate is fine, dont play it like a escort

    I will play it, it handles fine once again...L2P or use a diferent ship
    sacraficing other things??? LMAO L2P...battle cloak increases your turn rate..what are you sacraficing there? Evasive manuevers enhances turn...once again sacrafice what?
    Use attack pattern omega 1 for the ltc tac slot...fixxed
    use auxilliary to intertial dampners...fixxed

    Theres no other romulan ships eh? Ya your forced to fly the Big D if you want to be Romulan...k

    Redo your skills and strategies or just go back to escorts after 10 levels

    the ship is fine the way it is, I can solo elite tac cubes with it on test just fine

    Perhaps read some other posts before replying would be beneficial, since you seem to be missing the whole point about the ship's lackluster pvp potential.

    You don't need much more than a 1 turn rate to solo tac cubes. Pve is not the issue in question, but rather its effectiveness in pvp, as has been stated many times here.

    Asking for a slightly higher is not asking for it to handle like an escort, as has been stated many times here.

    Your solutions don't fix the underlying problem as other ships can employ those same skills for a much better result.

    It is fine for pve, as everything is. For pvp, the turn just makes the ship a poor contender.
  • verline1verline1 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    PvP is essentiually borked right now, why base any ship changes on it till they sort it out.
  • daggermoondaggermoon Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    just hopped onto tribble using my rom tac(50) and put this on the free d'd we get.

    not cloaked. 10.8 turn with no buffs and only 1 rcs
    http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad303/moondagger/screenshot_2013-05-19-14-06-38.jpg

    cloaked. 26.7 turn with no buffs and only 1 rcs
    http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad303/moondagger/screenshot_2013-05-19-14-07-06.jpg

    overall happy with it and definately a bc no changes needed that i see
  • roman1229roman1229 Member Posts: 185 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    daggermoon wrote: »
    just hopped onto tribble using my rom tac(50) and put this on the free d'd we get.

    not cloaked. 10.8 turn with no buffs and only 1 rcs
    http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad303/moondagger/screenshot_2013-05-19-14-06-38.jpg

    cloaked. 26.7 turn with no buffs and only 1 rcs
    http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad303/moondagger/screenshot_2013-05-19-14-07-06.jpg

    overall happy with it and definitely a bc no changes needed that i see
    Thank you for these shots. could you blow them up bigger so i can see the names of your equipment?
  • daggermoondaggermoon Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    roman1229 wrote: »
    Thank you for these shots. could you blow them up bigger so i can see the names of your equipment?

    lol nothing special i just reran the rom story arcs at lvl 50 to get upgraded stuff and the sets for tholian rep you can get at ds9
    the cannons got from the vendor at new rom command their white ix plasma dhc's, netronium 9's a green and blue shield cap enhancer and 2 plasma tac consoles
  • snoggymack22snoggymack22 Member Posts: 7,084 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    begerac wrote: »
    Can I put skin of D'Deridex on my Galor or DKora?

    Pretty please

    I think you can with holo emitters?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • bunansabunansa Member Posts: 928 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    cha0s1428 wrote: »
    Perhaps read some other posts before replying would be beneficial, since you seem to be missing the whole point about the ship's lackluster pvp potential.

    You don't need much more than a 1 turn rate to solo tac cubes. Pve is not the issue in question, but rather its effectiveness in pvp, as has been stated many times here.

    Asking for a slightly higher is not asking for it to handle like an escort, as has been stated many times here.

    Your solutions don't fix the underlying problem as other ships can employ those same skills for a much better result.

    It is fine for pve, as everything is. For pvp, the turn just makes the ship a poor contender.

    I have read every single post at least twice. This thread is one of my main keep an eyes on, why CAUSE THE D IS FINE...stop trying to apply what you know ingame currently to the warbirds, they dont fly, the same, if they did we wouldnt have battle cloak

    For pvp purposes it handles fine, infact the only issues ive seen it really have from my end with testing my own fleet has done is against the sci vessels with their cloak finding, it keeps the ship from dropping right ontop of the enemy and taking it down in 2 shots, it can be done almost against the escorts and cruisers, sci on the other hand, not as effective, course im not running purple stealth consoles and the higher singularity build up the easier it is to find the ship
    but, she makes up for it where her sheer armor/hull
    with a ltc tac slot, and a ltc sci slot the ship is very damn versatile as a cruiser LIKE vessel and can have alot of interesting build set ups

    Its a matter of getting use to the ship as she is, increasing the turn rate will only decrease other areas...prime example...vesta, she was bantered around so much in design it almost broke the ship completly...and all because of PVP

    News Flash this game isnt solely for pvp, if it was all the end game content would focus around that and not stfs, fleet actions, fleet mark missions, romulan mark missions, the CE

    PVP imo should never be considered a factor for balance, balance is a word that should be weighed very carefully in any subject topic, if it doesnt work in pvp dont use it, theres other ships. Or as I had stated before, try learning some new and unorthodox tactics for the ship, shes not a fed cruiser nor kdf battle cruiser...she is ...a ...WARBIRD
    tumblr_ndmkqm59J31r5ynioo2_r2_500.gif

  • lnterphaselnterphase Member Posts: 12 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    You didn't obviously read this one at all, its on page 17
    Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot
    people that are inexperienced, and i guess kinda humble about it, are ignorant enough to assume that theres a way for everything that the masses complain about to be flown just fine. it isn't the case, and the more experience and knowledge you have, the less likely you are to blurt out oh thats fine, you all just need to change your play style, its you not the ship. to me, thats a tell. of someone who is not qualified to make any sort of judgement call about any of that.

    The entire post was awesome.

    The D'Deridex is NOT fine, its not going to be fine as it currently is.

    However, to anyone who thinks it is fine, great, be fine with it.
    Get it, play it enjoy it.

    The rest of us know that as it is, one the novelty wears off this ship is not going to see much play.

    The Galaxy is an iconic Star Trek ship
    ...and a Star Trek 'Online' failure, especially the Galaxy-X

    We would like Cryptic not to do the same thing to the D'Deridex.
    But the way it currently is, its just not a viable ship.
  • aveimperatoraveimperator Member Posts: 319 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Ok, everybody saying the D'Deridex is fine, then by your same logic, the Galaxy and Bortas are fine too. And we see those all over the place, right? Oh wait, no we don't. Because they're ****.
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